Daysailer with small kids

[Mike_In_MI]

Hello all. It's my first post so if I offend... I did not intend.

I'm pondering building a daysailer for me to enjoy with my young kids (ages 6 and 4) and occasionally as a family. I've been cruising the web looking at designs and there seems to be lots of options. I'd like your help in narrowing down the options.

My goals (desires) which may not all fit together but i'll list in order of importance.
1) Safety. I'd rather not dunk my little girls in the lake. I'd use good judgement before heading out so it doesn't need to be bulletproof but I would like it to not turtle.
2) Trailerable.
3) Less than 16-18 feet LOA (fit in the building space)
4) Relativly quick/simple to rig. (Kids don't take kindly to hanging around for 2 hours in anticipation of doing something fun)
5) Easy/faster/cheaper construction.
6) Decent looks but doesn't have to be a pedigreed classic.


I've never built a boat before but I'm pretty handy. I do all of my own home remodeling. I do woodworkering as a serious hobby and I have the necessary tools to make just about anything. (But i don't mess with engines.... I know my limitations and things that use gas go to a shop to get fixed) I'm also an engineer as a profession but that is sometimes a handicap instead of a help....

What i like:
I like the Haven 12 1/2 but i think the build time and cost are just too long to be realistic for me at this point. I like some of the catboats like Marsh Cat but again, i think the construction time frame and cost may be too much.

Recently i read the latest "Small Boats" magazine and the Biscayne Bay caught my eye. Seems to fill some of my requirements pretty well. Any thoughts or ideas on this boat? Build time? Build cost?

Any other boats that might fit the requirements?

Thanks for your help.

Mike

[AndrewMac]

I've sailed the H-12.5 with my kids (7,5 and 4) and it was a wonderful boat. The minute man catboat at 15' may work for you. Suppose the other alternative would be a beetle cat, but that may be a little tight and bit less stable. Good luck.

[perldog007]

Bolger Birdwatcher, or Birdwatcher II,or Bolger Camper, or Michalak's Jewel box, or a variant thereof.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Dons devil's advocate hat.

Don't build - really, sailing and boat-building are two very separate hobbies.

If you really want to sail - buy, or better still - hire, a boat and go sailing.
If you want to build a boat - then go build one you want to build - many people have had a lot of fun building, and even racing, model boats. these can be built in very small spaces - and done even when the outside temperature drops way below the epoxy curing point....

Have fun.

[neoconocephalus]

I was in your situation 3 years ago (my girls are now 7 and 9). I contemplated building something in this size (15-18 ft) to use on reservoirs in mid Missouri. I ended up buying a used Bay Hen.
The small cabin has been very important for the kids to get out of the sun/wind and to play with their dolls/read/nap/not-go-on-our-nerves. This allows us to sail for several hours at a time and really enjoy some family time on the water. The girls also enjoy sailing in our small garvey, but typically only for 30 minutes or so.

The Bay Hen is very fast to rig at the boat ramp - it really takes only 10 minutes from getting there to sailing. Usually it takes the longest to carry the cooler and all the dolls to the boat.

I know - this it not a wooden boat, and I an missing the sound of wood on the water when I sail her. But for the purpose of getting the family on the water the Bay Hen was/is close to ideal.

I treated my urge to build a wooden boat by building a small sailboat, just for daddy. As it turns out now, the girls want to learn to sail themselves and the little garvey might see more use as the girls get older.

You can find lots of information on the Bay Hen on the internet.
Neo

some pictures of the garvey:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neocono/sets/72157613785587177/

[Thorne]

P.I. Stazzer-Newt (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/member.php?u=9605) -- Get Thee behind me, Satanas! :D

Actually, to play Satan's Little Helper, another path is restoration or buying used. I sailed several Blue Jay daysailers and took kids, wife, mother, dog, etc -- not all at once but up to 4 at a time in that classic 14' ply daysailer. Many other similar designs will be available on Craigslist and local sailing clubs and marinas.

If you are a 'basics-only' guy and any floating object will do, then one of the stitch & glue ply boats will do, with Bolger and Michalak being primary designers.

But if you like nice stuff you can build one of the many boats by Oughtred, Welsford, Arch Davis, Paul Gartsides, etc -- and the result will be a lot more like the boats you mentioned in your post. I think you'll find that a little more effort and expense will result in a significantly more attractive boat -- and that often really adds to the fun of sailing!

Much depends on where you'll be boating, as that may determine if you can use oars as secondary propulsion or will need an outboard. If you're willing to deal with a small outboard you can build any of the really trad designs like catboats and beamy sailboats that can't be rowed far (if at all).

[garland reese]

For simplicity, both in construction and in rigging and sailing for that matter, I think the B and B Core Sound boats are very hard to beat. Ease of construction, for a boat of its size and ability, is very very good. They can be as workman like or as yachty as you like, depending on the time, effort, capital that you want to invest. Sailing should be simple. Rigging should be very quick and easy. Stability should be as good as a boat of this type/size/wieght can likely be. And by most accounts, they are good sailers.

For construction ease, looks, and useability, I think these designs are strong contenders. Nice folks at B and B yachts too.

Core sound 15, 17, or 20 from www.banbyachtdesigns.com

[ahp]

Look for a secondhand Blue Jay in good conditions. It will get you on the water fast. It is a good boat for one adult and two kids or some combination thereof. If you don't like it you can sell it for about what you paid for it.

[paladin]

I you're gonna build, and fast, and relatively inexpensive...a Super Pelican or Great Pelican at 16 ft or 18ft.

[essaunders]

Mike. I have pretty much the same issue and requirements. I've passed on a haven ( too much to trailer)
I'm now looking at some Gartside designs now. I really wish swallowboats would come out with a 17 foot bay raider

Always looking for other good suggestions.

[David G]

Lotsa good suggestions here. The Pelican and Pacific Pelican are good, sturdy, safe boats. I love the Welsford designs. And, of course, I can't let the thread get too far down the road without mentioning the boat that my sons and I built and sailed together - Storer's Goat Island Skiff.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1405/635426846_7780bce300_o.jpg
<photo by J. Kohnen>


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2619/3948969635_7d2326681c_b.jpg

I mention the GIS because it's a very capable, versatile boat for how quick and inexpensive it is to build. It'll also take two kids - in my case, bigger than yours... but I doubt yours will quit growing anytime soon.

[David Cockey]

What size of lakes? How many fast powerboats stirring up waves. There's a world of difference between a small lake without fast powerboats and a large lake. We've sailed a nearby small lake in a Metropark with a 10 mph speed limit and waves were never a problem. But when there was sufficient wind for good sailing it was generally gusty and could switch direction quickly. So an easy to handle rig is a good idea. With an unstayed rig we could always let the sails fly and dive for the center of the boat. Kept us from capsizing several times.

When do you want to go sailing - next summer? How much time can you realistically spend during the average week building. Mid-June is only 26 weeks away. So multiply the the hours per week by the number of weeks and then cut it in half. And maybe cut it half again. If you want to go sailing next summer in a boat you build this winter then your options are probably a simple plywood skiff or a kit.

Buying a used boat can be a great way to get on the water. Given that you want to be sailing soon after arriving at the ramp you might prefer something with a simple unstayed rig where the sail stays attached. It can take a while to put the mast up, then put the sail on the mast, attach the boom to the mast, put the jib on the forestay, etc.

[rnboatworks]

Just thought I'd put in a pitch for the Babson Island 14.

I have really enjoyed both building and sailing this boat, and the rowing isn't bad either.

plenty of room for an adult and 2 kids or 2 adults three adults are doable but a little cramped.

I have a thread going on the build that can be found here.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105823

I have about 400 hrs into the build but I made some things more complicated than they needed to be. But everything is doable and there is a lot of stuff for the kids to help out with if they want to.
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx354/rnboatworks/DSCN2038.jpg

[Mike_In_MI]

Thanks all for the suggestions. I've been checking them out as they are suggested.

The discussion has caused me to rethink my approach. There are a number of people that suggested buying rather than building and mostly because of the time factor involved. The last thing i want to do is get started on another project that takes longer to finish than expected. (But don't they all....)

Some background. I like to build things. I like the process and i'm not usually focused on just getting things done. I'm pretty efficient at building furniture (and i have the tools) so I believe building a small boat is within my capabilities. But having said that, I'm also realistic about time and the limited time i have available. I work a full time job like most and have other responsibilities and projects that seem to eat up the weekends.

So, realistically, can anyone give approximate build times for some of the boats mentioned? Investing 500 hours of build time is probably a no-go at this point for me but investing a few hundred hours could be possible if i was in love with the boat design.

Some suggeted buying a boat and maybe fixing it up if needed. That is another option i've considered and may be more in line with the time constraints that i'm facing.

Overall, i do appreciate the reality checks that people have given. Like most, this boatbuilding idea is something that has been rattling around in my head for more than a few years but i am not the kind of person who charges ahead without a plan and a good understanding of the time committments.

Also, I do understand that it is not going to be cheaper to build then it is to buy something used. Cost is less of a consideration than the time commitment for me at this point.

I appreciate everyone's help and suggestions. Building a wooden boat is something i will do at some point but i also realize that it may be prudent to wait a few years until things get a little less hectic. (Does it ever get less busy???)


Thanks,

Mike

[Timo_N62.9_E27.7]

How about combining 12 1/2 and plywood?

Bolger did that and I have been admiring the plans in Dynamite´s book. Now I googled and found pictures of an actual build.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/gmschwab/Plywood125-sea%20trials/plywood125seatrials017.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/gmschwab/Plywood125-sea%20trials/plywood125seatrials082.jpg

More pictures:
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/gmschwab/Plywood125-sea%20trials/

[Ian McColgin]

There are so many great boats around. So look around and find a club boat with an active local fleet. Nothing so wonderfully exposes a parent's strengths and failings to children so fast as an elbows up scramble at the start or the cry of "bouy room" while gybing at the leeward mark or doing the charlie foxtrot as the rest of the fleet now beating back up pins you by the lee and chute up on the port tack . . .

But seriously, in most fleets with parents and children as crew, the competition is keen AND the sportsmanship is high so it's really fun. More to the point, your skills and your children's skills will improve. Sailing alone you just never really learn from your mistakes.

Get in a boat first. Build something when you know enough to decide.

G'luck

[rbgarr]

Michigan must have small fg sailboats people are giving away in this economy.

Get one cheap, see if your family likes sailing (if they don't already) and then they will help you choose and build in wood. My neighbor took that route, he and his girls picked the Wayfarer design and built it in one winter. There's an article about the build in WB #51, from 1988. He says he'd never have gotten it done without them, the kids love it and they still have the boat after twenty years and it's in great shape.

[Clinton B Chase]

My goals (desires) which may not all fit together but i'll list in order of importance.
1) Safety. I'd rather not dunk my little girls in the lake. I'd use good judgement before heading out so it doesn't need to be bulletproof but I would like it to not turtle.
2) Trailerable.
3) Less than 16-18 feet LOA (fit in the building space)
4) Relativly quick/simple to rig. (Kids don't take kindly to hanging around for 2 hours in anticipation of doing something fun)
5) Easy/faster/cheaper construction.
6) Decent looks but doesn't have to be a pedigreed classic.


Mike

Mike, I have the same goals for my next boat, even as a pro, the simplicity of construction of the Goat Island Skiff is attractive because I could put one together quickly between paying jobs (I hope....) and do it fairly cheaply. The result is a great boat that is stable, lightweight, sits up on the beach so it is easy for kids to get in/out and they can play inside it, high freeboard keeps it amazingly dry inside. The Goat is fast to sail...twice now I have gone out and sailed by the local 420 fleet as they raced.

I would do a Goat to start. Not nearly the $ and time commitment of a 12 1/2 type daysailer and if it's a 12 1/2 you end up wanting then you have not spent a terrible amount of time and energy on your first boat.

Clint Chase

[BrianY]

also you might consider the sailing skiff 15 form Chesepeake Marine Design - quick sheet ply construction, plans are well-drawn and detailed and the rig is easy to put up and take down. You can also row it if/when the wind dies.

http://www.cmdboats.com/sailingskiff15.htm?cart_id=202bcc9d2ce6a620bae3b46 e61cee61c

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg273/byankee_photos/sailingskiff_15.jpg

[David G]

As a start on your building calculations - I'd estimate that a fellow in your shoes would take somewhere in the 175 - 200 hour range to build a Goat Island Skiff. Being a professional woodworker, and having built one already, I'd guess my time would be around 140 - 150 hours. I hope that helps in your calculation. Keep in mind that hours estimates depend upon a lot of assumptions. Change a few of the circumstances, and you change the overall hours total significantly. eg. are the hours in 2 - 3 hour chunks, or in 6 - 10 hour chunks without interruption if necessary? It makes a big difference.

That said - there is a lot to be said for simply getting yourself a used boat, getting out on the water, getting a bit more educated, and building later if you feel so moved.

G'luck!

[frank pedersen]

I agree with the suggestion that you first get a used boat and more sailing experience before embarking on a building project. The Blue Jay would be very good, but the Wayfarer, I think, would be better. There is some Wayfarer activity in Michigan and a lot more in nearby Canada. A fiberglass Wayfarer also has enough wooden parts, e.g. seats, trim, rudder & tiller, etc. so it does not look like a plastic bathtub. Check the Canadian Wayfarer web site: www.wayfarer-canada.org for used boat listings that might be close to you. There also is a kit-built wooden boat listed for $3K in Annapolis, Md. My daughter first sailed with me in a Wayfarer at age 4. Now we a making plans to race together in the 2010 Wayfarer Nationals when she will be 44 yrs. old. I, of course, am still the same age as when I began in the class.

[Daniel Noyes]

Sunfish or plywood board boat of similar type.

[Ian McColgin]

Actually, it's hard to beat the Sunfish for learning, family beach fun, and enlightening local competition. I've mentioned elsewhere that Dad and another pilot built a couple of Sailfish - 1952 was a bit before the Sunfish was thought of - and that family of two kids and two adults matching ours exactly did lots of daysailing and beach cruising with overnights.

And as we grew the Sailfish was the boat we could take out alone.

Of course there was the time my cousin got leave from West Point and showed up for some sailing with a girl to impress. He set off on a fine soldier's breeze from our beach near Old Field Point on Long Island and we didn't hear for about 8 hours. Finally a collect phone call from Connecticut . . .

Luckily Uncle Vin at Essex had a sense of humor rescued them, and got them aboard the ferry which was owned by family friends anyway. I had not known that there was any breed more arrogantly self-assured than pilots but there is and I guess they stay that way till they get their commissions and some lifer sergant straightens them out.

All told, Sunfish - safe enough to be really stupid on.

[rbgarr]

I, of course, am still the same age as when I began in the class.
:D:D

[JimD]

3) Less than 16-18 feet LOA (fit in the building space)

There can be quite a difference between 16-18 feet, so could you narrow it down a bit? Ditto to all who suggest buy instead of build. Building is very time consuming and you shouldn't build unless you're really burning to build your own boat. For quick to build and easy to handle one of the flat bottom designs with a cat rig gets my vote. Look at this old Atkin framed plywood catboat design at 17x7 feet:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/JamesSamuelJr-1.gif

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/JamesSamuelJr-4.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos/JamesSamuelJr/JamesSamuelJr-02.jpg

[Dave Carnell]

May I suggest my adaptation of Bolger's Featherwind, Nutmeg.
I no longer sell the plans, having sold the business to Thom Vetromile at <smallboatforum.com>. Before that I sold ~600 sets worldwide.
They were built and sailed on all the oceans.
Nothing cheaper or easier with high capacity and seaworthiness.

[JimD]

Nutmeg, for those not familiar:

http://smallboatforum.com/SBF%20Image%20File/Nutmeg4.jpg

http://smallboatforum.com/SBF%20Image%20File/Nutmeg5.jpg


http://smallboatforum.com/SBF%20Image%20File/Nutmeg6.jpg


http://smallboatforum.com/1_FSB/1fsb.htm
http://smallboatforum.com/SBF%20Image%20File/Nutmeg1.jpg

[ahp]

I agree with Ian. There is nothing like racing to get your sailing skills up to speed in a hurry. Your compeditors are usually quite helpful, too. It also means, that if you do decide to race, you need to have a boat that has a large following. That why I suggested the Blue Jay. The Sunfish is another choice. It is amazing how much weather a Sunfish will take.

Can a wood boat match a FG one? I don't have any experience here. If you have a good suit of sails, a slick bottom and keep the weight down, I think yes.

[JimD]

A Welsford Smack, but with a greatly simplified sailplan:
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/smack/smack.gif

[Tom Robb]

I confess to not reading all the texts, but did anyone mention that if the boat isn't very simple or you're very fast at building, the kids won't be so small when she's launched. They grow up shockingly fast and boats don't.

[ChrisObee]

I confess to not reading all the texts, but did anyone mention that if the boat isn't very simple or you're very fast at building, the kids won't be so small when she's launched. They grow up shockingly fast and boats don't.

While I have not been very good at finishing my project, I do know that most of my progress has been achieved in a matter of weeks. I am building a Bateau CV 16 stitch and glue daysailer. 6 months is a doable time line for a boat this size.

[mcdenny]

Mike, Are you in the Detroit area? I've got a half done Oughtred 18' Arctic Tern in my shop and would be glad to chat with you about boat building.

PM me if you want to come by. I'm at the intersection of 26 mile rd and Canada.

[John Turpin]

1) Safety. I'd rather not dunk my little girls in the lake. I'd use good judgement before heading out so it doesn't need to be bulletproof but I would like it to not turtle.
2) Trailerable.
3) Less than 16-18 feet LOA (fit in the building space)
4) Relativly quick/simple to rig. (Kids don't take kindly to hanging around for 2 hours in anticipation of doing something fun)
5) Easy/faster/cheaper construction.
6) Decent looks but doesn't have to be a pedigreed classic.


You may be describing a Core Sound 15. Very kid-safe, boom-free cat ketch.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs15.htm

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/core%20sound%2015a.jpg

[Martin Nelson]

I can only echo what others have said, buy an old used sailboat, take the kids out, learn to sail, and enjoy it. Building a boat is a longer term project. You may discover some new ideas about what you want. I think you will have a better experience doing it that way rather than building first.

[johnw]

I can only echo what others have said, buy an old used sailboat, take the kids out, learn to sail, and enjoy it. Building a boat is a longer term project. You may discover some new ideas about what you want. I think you will have a better experience doing it that way rather than building first.
And this and building are not mutually exclusive. You knock around in an old boat while building a boat you like better. The important thing is to get the kids on the water.

[Clinton B Chase]

And this and building are not mutually exclusive. You knock around in an old boat while building a boat you like better. The important thing is to get the kids on the water.

I totally second this and have found in a lot of experience with kids and boats is that they have a real-life context for the building of the boat once they are or have been on the water.

Have fun.

[tbarrows]

Mike - first of all it brings me great joy to read of your intentions to teach your girls the wonderful pleasure of sailing.

If you're more interested in a building project, I would also suggest some of the designs by Arch Davis Design

http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign

If you prefer a ready to sail, fully rigged with trailer boat sailboat which matches your criteria, you may want to consider the Aurai 17 by Callisto Sailcfraft.

http://www.callisto-sailcraft.com

Best of luck,

-tom

[tbarrows]

Mike,

Oops. Arch's web site is: http://www.archdavisdesigns.com

-tom

[Tom Robb]

One observation I've noted is that kids seldom take to what we think is so very cool until later in life when they look back and finally get it. Obviously not all kids. Either way, nothing we learn is completely useless. Except possibly quadratic equasions;)