Everglades Challenger [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

Maximus

12-06-2009, 06:53 PM

The Everglades Challenge is a 300 mile adventure race that takes place every March. The event is put on by Watertribe http://www.watertribe.com (http://www.watertribe.com/) and there's something along the lines of a 40% finish rate.

Over the last several years, the Core Sound series of boats have tended to dominate the event, posting best time in class on a regular basis. 2009 saw a different entrance from Graham Byrnes, (Core Sound designer and head of B and B Yacht Design) the EC22, a larger and slightly different version of the standard cat-ketch rig.

The EC22 is stayed, where the other Core Sounds are not, the other most noticeable difference is the large cuddy/cabin on the EC22. Wooden boat did an article of Graham and his designs recently too.

Now, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I enjoy tinkering with small craft design, and that I enjoy passing that guy sailing next to me.

With that in mind I'd like to start getting some input from forum readers about design considerations to incorporate into a design to give the EC22 a run for it's money. Keep in mind there are some design limitations put forth by the race, plus the checkpoint limits.

The EC22 is plywood, and that's what my background is in, but I think strip-build would also a real possibility.

I would like to keep it 18ft or under since I usually sail alone

Centerboard would be most practical considering the shoal draft needs of the race...though ballasted and high AP ratio.

Rig is the biggest question mark and I'm totally open to ideas. The Cat-ketch seems to be the rig of choice by most performers, but I'm not ruling out sloops/cutter that can be quickly stepped.

One idea that may be more original is a water ballast system in this smaller craft.

Ok, let er rip guys and please don't think is a rip on Graham, he's done a wonderful job with his boats, but I feel that it's in the spirit of the event to look for ways to improve speed, safety and utility. Thx
Brent

Tom Lathrop

12-06-2009, 07:28 PM

I'm sure the Everglades Challenge will welcome your entry Maximus.

However, The EC22 mast is not stayed. What you may have seen are running backstays on the main that are used only when the asymmetrical spinnaker is flown. I helped build the EC22 and have sailed it a number of times and can say that it can be a handfull at times. An unstayed cat ketch is a good choice, not because it is the fastest rig but because it is a very forgiving and easily handled rig and fast enough. This can be critical in the middle of a rough, cold and wet night when you have been on the tiller for too many hours.

You might study the race conditions and, in particular, the mandatory inshore check points that act as filters to dictate some limitations on the kind of boat that is competitive. It is a tough race for a singlehanded sailboat if you aspire to finish in a good time. You have to choose between sailing mostly in the open Gulf or in the inside between islands and the mainlend. This decision also dictates some boat parameters. Navigation can be critical and without experience with local conditions, you can spend a lot of time on mudbanks or stuck fighting tidal currents in restricted waterways.

The kind of boat is important but not the most important factor in winning this race.

Finally, single and doublehanders race in different classes.

Thorne

12-06-2009, 08:39 PM

What about SwallowBoats' BayRaider? The water ballast system is said to be pretty innovative -

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/115/110/

Length: 19ft 10ins (6.05m) Beam: 6ft 7ins (2.05m) Weight: 770 lbs (350kg)
Draft up: 9ins (250mm) Down: 4ft 8ins (1.42m) Sail Area:183 sqft (17sqm)

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/images/stories/swallowboats/bayraider/DSC_0411.JPG

Maximus

12-06-2009, 10:15 PM

You're absolutely correct about the running backstay. I had to look again, to make sure, it was just the weird angle.

I'm sure it is a lot of boat to handle and I'm ok with that, but my mind keeps coming back to the low bridge at CP1. If a stayed rig was used in conjuction with a tabernacle, then maybe if could still be lower quickly, but it's a big problem to overcome.

With regards to CP1, there also seems to be a bit of rowing that would need to be done to get to the CP and though I imagine a more skiff like boat, they don't tend to row well. More to mull over...

The weather falls more into my knowledge abilities. I plan to do a lot of looking at seasonal averages and peaks for that area. I lived in the panhandle for a couple years, but never made it so far south, that being said I'm sure I'd want to do a recon before racing the course.

I leave for Belize in the morning, but plan to tinker for a bit on a hull shape to get some feedback on. Enjoy your week.

Daniel Noyes

12-06-2009, 10:46 PM

It will be hard to equal the EC22 performance with a 18' boat for simple reasons of waterline and hull speed... the ec22 is significantly faster than the core sound boats, similar hull but that much bigger.
I'm sure a full on sharp bow scow hull would faster than the EC22 if built to 22 ft but 18' is a much smaller boat.
The advantage I see to the EC22 is it does not look like a demanding boat to sail (Ive never sailed but have seen it sail) ease of handling is a big part of endurance racing, so while a 18' skiff type craft might be able to sail circles around the EC22 the crew probably would have trouble finishing the course before exhaustion set in.
The Scow type hull is ideal because of shallow draft, ease of sailing and faster hull shape than the EC22
here's a boat I built my take on a scow/dory capable of handling some waves and reasonably fast...but I think I may have already showed you this hull?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2542/4141517026_3830e4fe8d_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4141517026/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2703/4140758735_2a204bbebf_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4140758735/)
and some lines for a sheet ply hull easily built
this boat would be quick but not sure it would be faster than the core sound of similar size where the round chine would be faster than a CS
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2474/4053634429_89a99cf42f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4053634429/)

perldog007

12-07-2009, 05:48 AM

kenjamin

12-07-2009, 06:32 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Everglades Challenge was won handily by a couple of guys on a Tornado catamaran and there is no distinction of classes between monohulls and multihulls. So if you really want to win, you might want to look at a catamaran. On the other hand, the spirit of the race seems be more like "Hey, look at me. I competed, finished and survived!" (No big prize awaits the winner.)

perldog007

12-07-2009, 07:13 AM

Reading the rules I came away under the impression that monohulls are different from multis as far as classes are concerned.

If I ever do any such event you can count on me bringing up the rear in a whiskey/water/food/spare parts scow. But a few lesser events and the EC are on my bucket list

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 07:22 AM

Featured in Duckworks, this proa crossed the Atlantic

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/outings/french/1-wr.jpg

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/outings/french/index.htm

Brian

John Turpin

12-07-2009, 07:47 AM

If you want to compete with the EC22 in a monohull, well, good luck. I've sailed with that boat and it's a rocket ship. I've never seen a sailboat of that size that can accelerate that quickly. To compete with it, you need to have a long, light boat. Something like a Sea Pearl.

Although, I seem to remember Tom Lathrop's Lapwing 16 giving the EC22 a run for its money at the Small Reach Regatta. A 16' boat staying close to the EC22? Hmmmmmmm. Oh, that's right. It was designed by Graham too.

Tom Lathrop

12-07-2009, 08:13 AM

Overall winner the past two years has been a Tornado cat sailed by two excellent sailors but multihulls are in a separate class from monos.

It's easy to get hung up on hull types. Even the venerable Sea Pearl is faster than the EC22 in real light air but, when it starts to blow, its no contest. The EC22 is very beamy and a poor rower but has two rowing stations so rowing can be done by both crew. In most instances, one rows while the other steers with some aid from what little wind may be available. Similar comments apply to the CS20 while the CS 17 rows pretty well.

Its difficult to complete the EC without stopping for some rest but a two person crew stands a better chance at this. Whatever boat is chosen, the needs of the crew take equal importance with hull and rig design. A stayed mast presents no big problem to raising and lowering for CP1 but a tabernacle is a big help. A big advantage of the unstayed cat ketch is the ability to let the sails forward to get great ballance and selfsteering downwind. Great when the crew is tired and surfing waves at night.

One of Jim Michlak's larger boats has competed several times and finished each time, but not near the front.

Several proas have competed but suffered from inadequate design, in my opinion. In the Small Reach Regatta, where Daniel refers to seeing the EC22, the EC 22 finished the windy day near a horizon job on the second boat which was my 15' 8" cat ketch "Lapwing". Lapwing was a near horizon job on the third boat and the rest of the fleet of 30 to 40 boats. The fleet included Sea Pearl, Caledonia Yawls, Ness Yawls, Welsford Pathfinder, other CS designs and others of various kinds.

Edited to add: I see John Turpin sneaked in ahead of my post. By the way John, how is your Lapwing coming along?

Chris Ostlind

12-07-2009, 08:39 AM

... but the Everglades Challenge was won handily by a couple of guys on a Tornado catamaran and there is no distinction of classes between monohulls and multihulls. So if you really want to win, you might want to look at a catamaran.

Not only has the fast Tornado won the event, but they've done it in consecutive years with the two fastest times yet seen.... by considerable margins. The absolute fastest time for the whole tamale has been an astounding, 1 day, 11 hours and 48 minutes.

http://www.watertribe.com/Events/RecordBook.aspx

There are several other boats that will compete, favorably, with the EC22, depending on conditions. It may be to your advantage to look around a bit and see what works best with your skills and intent. (e.g. are you "racing", or are you looking to finish in grand style without killing yourself?)

If it's windy all that week, then a fast multihull will get you there quicker than will any mono you can name within the rules. If there is no wind, any dedicated sailing vessel will easily be smoked by an efficiently paddled, or rowed, craft. You owe it to yourself to see how well any of the really fast sailing machines do when the wind shuts-down. Give yourself the pleasure of rowing a planing hull mono for a whole afternoon, or trying to paddle a full-blown racing cat while sitting, cowboy style, on one of the hulls. The hull forms that make for blazing sailing craft, are typically, not very much fun to paddle or row.

I just love the EC22 and all the rest of Graham's design work and any of the boats in that lineup, as you mentioned, will be more than fun for your stated goals. That having been said, there are some terrific, hybrid designs that can more than comfortably handle both human and wind power. They are not the fastest boats in any one of the conditions, but they are very good at bridging the need to be able to perform in both areas without completely zapping the crew.

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com (http://www.lunadadesign.com)

Tom Lathrop

12-07-2009, 09:54 AM

With Chris's indulgence, I will expand a little on what has been said. There are several ways to have a go at this event. You can take a kayak (or similar) and paddle or sail and paddle. Do these with one or two crew. You can sail a multi or mono and do that with one or two crew. You can do any of these with a "normal" type craft and most store bought kayaks and the CS (or even EC22) or most that have sailed used one of these.

Finally, you can attack any of the classes with a more unusual or radical craft of your own devising. The latter may be a more interesting project for many who like to venture well outside the box. If you take the latter course, you should know that none of these have won and very few have done very well or even finished the course.

John Turpin

12-07-2009, 09:57 AM

I see John Turpin sneaked in ahead of my post. By the way John, how is your Lapwing coming along?

Hi Tom. She's coming along nicely. The hull gets paint within the next few weeks. The masts will be done within a month. Sails are being ordered now. I'm guessing that I'm just about half way done. I plan to debut her at the BOOTS event in late April. I won't attempt the Texas 200 in her this year, though. I want to get to know her before I take her into big winds and nasty waves. I sank a boat there last year and I'd like to avoid that again.

If I can get to the Messabout next Fall, we can have two Lapwings sailing together.

http://www.tetra-sail.com/lapwing_images/keel2.jpg

bwd

12-07-2009, 11:25 AM

My 2 cents:
A light and narrow-as-you-can-stand-it 18-20ft mono in strip might be good, esp. if it rows better than the CS/EC boats.

Centerboard v. daggerboard:
Not knowing the waters, a kick-up centerboard could ease your mind, but make lots of drag unless the well seals perfectly. Daggerboard would save a worthwhile amount of weight, and reduce drag. Could be a big deal over a 2-3 day race, but also more risk of damage...

Another thing that might have solo potential would be a narrower-than-normal catamaran that could be rowed well. Maybe a beach cat could be narrowed and have racks (or traps?) added as well as oars. Don't forget the reef points.... This might take a LOT of development effort to get right. Not sure if it has been done to good effect before.

Interesting things to ponder...

Chris Ostlind

12-07-2009, 11:44 AM

...If you take the latter course, you should know that none of these have won and very few have done very well or even finished the course.

True on all accounts, Tom. The Tornado, by example, is a well proven Olympic class catamaran that has been tested in the most severe of conditions and has proven itself as the fastest and most durable of the beach cats, when properly prepped for a specific event.

Me, I'm all about pushing the boundaries with cutting edge potential entries. I'm also about providing boats that will be all-around examples of what can be done in a wide variety of conditions. Call me distracted, if you will, but I look at this as a complex design problem that has no dialed-in solution, short of taking the long view and designing/building a boat that will produce the best results over a long period of event history.

Because this (The EC) was originally put together as a means to explore the potential for coastal cruising design solutions, I still see it as the best overall solution to that end and not a "race" to see what boat designs, in what given years, might blow away the fleet.

The guy who can paddle/row/Mirage his way along the course... while still being able to enjoy all that the particular coast and nature, itself, have to offer, will always be the winner in my book. I have been to Belize on a outer reef expedition before, and the speed of the travel was the last thing on my mind. I was all about the moment with the sea and wind, the wildlife and the ability to factor all of that while I was away from my email and telephone.

I would love it if the Watertribe Challenge were to return to that paradigm and reward all the Challengers equally, instead of the ones that blow through the course, not having a clue as to what they saw and how lovely it might have been. You do not know, at all, what you might have missed when you blitz the course on a blistering fast Tornado cat, or a planing design, such as the EC22.

No idea at all.

I love them all for different reasons and always will. But, for me.... the EC is about the process of taking in the environment, how it changes from year to year with weather and human conditions and about how lucky one might be to see the southwest coast of Florida before it becomes a total nightmare with no chance of ever coming back.

Maximus

12-07-2009, 12:24 PM

I certainly welcome the comments from you Chris about taking in the wildlife and nature, however I take many chances to do just that. I personally see the EC as testing ground to new ideas about camp cruising and speed, two parts of sailing that I feel need not be mutually exclusive.

That's where I come back to my query. Watertribe basically asks that these boats be camping capable, but the CP limits withstanding, don't put many design restrictions on them. For the EC itself, I may look at a minimal approach as to what would come with, but a boat can always carry extra item for added comfort when not interested in speed.

Now about the design.

I strongly feel that 18ft was a limit set by myself for dragging it off the beach and being able to handle the rig with some ease. The hull form I also would feel would likely have a skiff heritage, with planning ability in moderate winds and while lightly loaded. Scows seem to also have many good traits that could be useful and practical, unfortunately they don't seem to be in much favor for adventure boats at this time(maybe we can change that). Again, I'm putzing with a hull form to show off(not really) after I get home this week. Thx for the input and btw...nice Lapwing!

switters

12-07-2009, 12:46 PM

Tom Lathrop

12-07-2009, 12:54 PM

Me, I'm all about pushing the boundaries with cutting edge potential entries. I'm also about providing boats that will be all-around examples of what can be done in a wide variety of conditions. Call me distracted, if you will, but I look at this as a complex design problem that has no dialed-in solution, short of taking the long view and designing/building a boat that will produce the best results over a long period of event history.

The guy who can paddle/row/Mirage his way along the course... while still being able to enjoy all that the particular coast and nature, itself, have to offer, will always be the winner in my book.

I would love it if the Watertribe Challenge were to return to that paradigm and reward all the Challengers equally, instead of the ones that blow through the course, not having a clue as to what they saw and how lovely it might have been. You do not know, at all, what you might have missed when you blitz the course on a blistering fast Tornado cat, or a planing design, such as the EC22.
.

I would love to see someone bring something new in the way of boat concept to the EC and do well but it is an unforgiving event most of the time. I think you were working on one a couple years ago. Are you still looking to do that?

There is precious little in the way of any material reward for the participants, unless a little wood paddle with the Watertribe emblem on it counts for that. Graham gave me his from the first EC22 win for my work on the boat. I am as proud of it as any of the other sailing trophies around it.

I'm certain most of the entries share your thoughts and enter for the experience and adventure with no real hope of winning. The most amazing to me is Matt Layden and his Sand Flea. A little 8' covered pram that, not only finishes but, does so quicker that we would think possible.

Tom Lathrop

12-07-2009, 01:07 PM

I still think a GIS in the solo mono could do well depending on the weather, which can be said for a lot of things, but there is usually a mix. FWIW the solo mono last year was mullet, under 16' if i recall.

I like the Goat Island Skiff as well as admire all of Micheal's work. The GIS would tax even the toughest sailer to go 300 miles in this event. In my opinion it would be much too unforgiving of small mistakes in a race like this. Same goes for just about all of similar sized racing boats like my favorite, the Windmill. A boat like the Wayfarer might do well but a CS is probably better for such an event.

A daggerboard would be a nightmare in Florida Bay while looking for a path through the mud flats.

Before anyone tries a scow like the drawing , they should first try one in the ocean under adverse conditions. The term submarine comes to mind. They are called lake scows for a reason.

One big advantage of a fast boat like the Tornado is that the crew can usually make the race without rest because of limited time on the course. As long as there is only one, they can take a longer and easier route through Florida Bay.

kenjamin

12-07-2009, 01:11 PM

Keep in mind that you don't have to drag your entry off the beach. Boat fenders can be used to roll an entry into the water. With help from them I could even enter my Caledonia Yawl. You do have to carry those fenders with you if you use them though. I think a CY would be a comfortable way to enjoy the race especially if fitted with a proper dodger. In a CY you probably wouldn't win but you might enjoy the event a lot more than most.
http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/HeadedHome-sm.jpg

perldog007

12-07-2009, 02:12 PM

Dan St Gean

12-07-2009, 02:26 PM

Am I the only one who wonders why we get coverage of who can catch and release the biggest bass with a zillion dollars worth of high tech gear and gadgets on "outdoor" television and nobody can get sponsors behind events like the various raids? I think the E.C. or TX200 would make good television.

I think so too...but the numbers don't support it much. There are, ohhh, about 1 bazillion fishermen. Each apparently owning or lusting after a 50K bassboat capable of getting to the hole and back at 70-80 mph. I believe the time with a line in the water is paramount to those guys. What I don't get is all the wannabees "needing" the same boat as the logo'd out sponsorship guy. Either way we're a serious minority. TV is mostly about selling ad space and to do that you need potential viewers.

.02

Dan

Dan St Gean

12-07-2009, 02:33 PM

I would like to keep it 18ft or under since I usually sail alone

Centerboard would be most practical considering the shoal draft needs of the race...though ballasted and high AP ratio.

Rig is the biggest question mark and I'm totally open to ideas. The Cat-ketch seems to be the rig of choice by most performers, but I'm not ruling out sloops/cutter that can be quickly stepped.

One idea that may be more original is a water ballast system in this smaller craft.

Ok, let er rip guys and please don't think is a rip on Graham, he's done a wonderful job with his boats, but I feel that it's in the spirit of the event to look for ways to improve speed, safety and utility. Thx
Brent

Light is right for a fast boat. Planing is fast. Multi's are fast. Time spent sailing and not crashed on the beach is also fast.

Do you want a mono or a multihull? If a mono, you could search a long time and not find a faster boat than the EC 22 unless you want a "sport boat". Those have keels though... not so good for the EC.

If you are willing to go multihill, there are a number of options available to you that can be great speed machines and a somewhat smaller number of boats that are great camp cruisers.

Two years ago I did the T200 in a H 18 and was barely able to reel in Graham in the EC 22 that he was sailing with his daughter & granddaughter! It's a fast mono in anything but calms.

Where do your boating interests lie?

Dan

switters

12-07-2009, 03:45 PM

Am I the only one who wonders why we get coverage of who can catch and release the biggest bass with a zillion dollars worth of high tech gear and gadgets on "outdoor" television and nobody can get sponsors behind events like the various raids? I think the E.C. or TX200 would make good television.

I was lucky enough to be at the launching last year for the EC and if it were a big televised sport with the crews roped off it would have spoiled one of the neatest mornings of my life. The whole thing is about people who dont watch , they do. It would make great television, until the TV drove away the type of people who really make these events fun. I just don't think you can have both.

perldog007

12-07-2009, 03:56 PM

I was lucky enough to be at the launching last year for the EC and if it were a big televised sport with the crews roped off it would have spoiled one of the neatest mornings of my life. The whole thing is about people who dont watch , they do. It would make great television, until the TV drove away the type of people who really make these events fun. I just don't think you can have both.

I can see your point, thinking more along the lines of "Les Stroud" productions. One or two documentary makers tagging along.

I hope to be there someday, but have a ways to go before I am ready for that run.

Daniel Noyes

12-07-2009, 03:58 PM

This is what Michalak came up with for a two man TX200 boat

http://jimsboats.com/gordobarcoma.jpg

Reading through the rules for the EC it looks like it might work, but have no idea how well in relation to the EC22

Is'nt that a Bolger light schooner with lug sails?

the EC22 is practically a scow, just lacks the bearing forward and the ability to reduce it's waterline width as much as a full on scow...
Ec22 lines are also very close to a Volvo ocean race type monohull, fast boats.

perldog007

12-07-2009, 04:31 PM

Is'nt that a Bolger light schooner with lug sails?

the EC22 is practically a scow, just lacks the bearing forward and the ability to reduce it's waterline width as much as a full on scow...
Ec22 lines are also very close to a Volvo ocean race type monohull, fast boats.

Nope, that's Michalak's 'laguna' designed especially for the TX200. The prototype was built by PDR skipper Gordo Barcombe according to the photo credit in Jim's Newsletter. Jim apparently knew Phil and takes many of his cues from Bolger's work.

According to legend, the skipper/builder of the luguna in the picture is also a rookie sailor of one season's experience.

Tom Lathrop

12-07-2009, 04:31 PM

the EC22 is practically a scow, just lacks the bearing forward and the ability to reduce it's waterline width as much as a full on scow...
Ec22 lines are also very close to a Volvo ocean race type monohull, fast boats.

The second statement was my exact thought when I first took a long look at the EC22 upside down in the building jig.

I have no idea where the first sentence came from. The EC22 is nothing like a scow. We would be better not to use terms like scow, skiff , dory or dinghy unless there is a more defining explanation. No one knows what these terms mean because different people may sometimes use all of them to describe the same boat.

Daniel Noyes

12-07-2009, 04:56 PM

Volvo Ocean racer, open 60 types, are scows optimized for rough water, flat wide bottoms, wide transoms, bilge boards, bilge rudders, sharp bow helps keep the boat moving in rough water where a more powerfull hull would bang it's self to bits.

Tom Lathrop

12-07-2009, 06:13 PM

bluedog225

12-07-2009, 09:11 PM

A big advantage of the unstayed cat ketch is the ability to let the sails forward to get great ballance and selfsteering downwind. Great when the crew is tired and surfing waves at night.

Help me out here Tom. I've let the sails go forward of the mast on countless occasions over the 10 or so years I was sailing lakes and flattish coastal bays.

However, I was using this strategy in the last Texas 200 with my balanced lug Sea Pearl 21. dead run, 3-4 foot steep, close, chop, and about 25 mph winds.

As far as I can piece together, there were several contributing factors to the capsize. For whatever reason (rudder not secured against kicking up, stern lifted out of water, etc.) she suddenly swung around, slid sideways into the trough, and broached. One of the downsides of having the sails forward of the mast was that they suddenly powered up instead of jibing.

With that experience fresh in my memory, I'm wondering if it is ever good advice to run the sails forward of the mast in anything but the lightest of wind and in flat water? Serious question. I'm trying to learn to sail better, not pick a fight. :)

Thanks

Tom

john welsford

12-07-2009, 09:14 PM

I've been asked to look into the possibility of a "special" for visitors from overseas or far away.
The breif ended up as follows.
The frames, rudder, sail and centerboard have to fit into a Mountain Bike air luggage bag along with full sized paper patterns for all the major parts.
The clients, ( in this case three couples to build and sail three boats ) fly in with these plus basic hand tools, pick up a rental van and go shopping for cheap plywood, alloy tube, epoxy and glass cloth ( preordered and delivered to the motel or where ever they plan to stay) , and the boats to be cut and taped together over 4/5 days. One or two coats of plastic paint just for sensibilities sake, and test sail for half an hour or so before taking off in the event.
In this case its the Texas 200, but the boats would work for any of the raids or the EC event. A freind is busy building a prototype right now, but I may have been a little optimistic as to what he could achieve in the time allowed, there are about 4 days fulltime in it so far and he has a boat that needs a seat, decks, and centercase plus fair off the tapes and paint it.
Mind you he's a complete first time builder and the second time one would be much quicker.
Meanwhile Dave Perillos AWOL is getting close to launching and would make a really interesting entry. http://www.openboat.co.nz/
And no its not even remotely related to a scow. Or a sharpie or dory for that matter.

On this thread in general, no one has mentioned yet that part of the reason that Graham Byrnes does so well is that he is a very very good sailor and to beat him you not only need a boat as quick as his, but sailing and navigation skills at least as good or better.

John Welsford

I would love to see someone bring something new in the way of boat concept to the EC and do well but it is an unforgiving event most of the time. I think you were working on one a couple years ago. Are you still looking to do that?

There is precious little in the way of any material reward for the participants, unless a little wood paddle with the Watertribe emblem on it counts for that. Graham gave me his from the first EC22 win for my work on the boat. I am as proud of it as any of the other sailing trophies around it.

I'm certain most of the entries share your thoughts and enter for the experience and adventure with no real hope of winning. The most amazing to me is Matt Layden and his Sand Flea. A little 8' covered pram that, not only finishes but, does so quicker that we would think possible.

perldog007

12-08-2009, 08:28 AM

Only a matter of time before the Puddle Duckers show up for this one as well.....

switters

12-08-2009, 09:50 AM

Only a matter of time before the Puddle Duckers show up for this one as well.....

I've been following their exploits on the T200 threads, the ducks will rule the world.

Another Storer design no one has mentioned is the raid 41 (unless I missed it), but that looks like a real work out for and EC, it having a narrow beam.

My goal is to get a T200 under my belt and then an EC. Oh, and make a living and keep the woman happy, we shall see.

DGentry

12-08-2009, 12:09 PM

perldog007

12-08-2009, 01:08 PM

I've been following their exploits on the T200 threads, the ducks will rule the world.

Another Storer design no one has mentioned is the raid 41 (unless I missed it), but that looks like a real work out for and EC, it having a narrow beam.

My goal is to get a T200 under my belt and then an EC. Oh, and make a living and keep the woman happy, we shall see.

I was asking Andrew Linn some questions about his boat, he told me about some plans to show up at the OBX130 with Mike M. and a Michalak Laguna. I don't know if that means he is done with the PDR in these events or not.

Gordo Barcombe, another ducker built the prototype Laguna so we have to wonder who will carry on the tradition. Jason perhaps? his tenacious turtle was quite a duck....

I would like to see a PDR complete the E.C., just pretty sure I don't want to be that guy.

switters

12-08-2009, 01:15 PM

Switters - Planning to go next year? I've been considering it - we can drive down to the TX coast together . . . .

Anybody done either of these races in a Bolger Light Schooner? Seems ideal, except for the daggerboard.

Dave Gentry

Very tempting, but I'm getting married the week before I think it is going to be (june 10th or so), so I'm going to do the MR340 with Larry Boyle around the end of July, you interested in that? I COULD commit to the t200 in 2011 with either the GIS or something you have. In fact, the best way to get stuff like this done is to commit two years in advance, that was how I got a week in the boundary waters.

Dan St Gean

12-08-2009, 02:47 PM

I would like to see a PDR complete the E.C., just pretty sure I don't want to be that guy.

Not a duck, but Matt L. finished in a remarkable time in a 8' pram called "Sand Flea" as mentioned previously by Tom L.

Dan

perldog007

12-08-2009, 02:57 PM

Not a duck, but Matt L. finished in a remarkable time in a 8' pram called "Sand Flea" as mentioned previously by Tom L.

Dan

That boat ( the sand flea 8') is on the PDR site so it makes me think some worthy intrepid will give it a whirl.

I want to do the OBX130 in a scow with a Birdwatcher cabin. Hang back, carry spare water, booze, food, tools, parts and such. Just be there for the scenery with no thought of racing.

An event like the E.C. is a few seasons off at least for me.

Tom Lathrop

12-08-2009, 02:57 PM

Help me out here Tom. I've let the sails go forward of the mast on countless occasions over the 10 or so years I was sailing lakes and flattish coastal bays.

However, I was using this strategy in the last Texas 200 with my balanced lug Sea Pearl 21. dead run, 3-4 foot steep, close, chop, and about 25 mph winds.

As far as I can piece together, there were several contributing factors to the capsize. For whatever reason (rudder not secured against kicking up, stern lifted out of water, etc.) she suddenly swung around, slid sideways into the trough, and broached. One of the downsides of having the sails forward of the mast was that they suddenly powered up instead of jibing.

With that experience fresh in my memory, I'm wondering if it is ever good advice to run the sails forward of the mast in anything but the lightest of wind and in flat water? Serious question. I'm trying to learn to sail better, not pick a fight. :)

Thanks

Tom

Bluedog,

Sorry for the delay but have not been near the computer today til now. Its impossible to diagnose your exact situation after the fact but there are several issues. With the sails well out, the main does fill on a broach earlier. Whether that adds to the chance of a broach, maybe yes, maybe no. I've had a lot of racing boats broach and could argue either case depending on other circumstances. Problems with the rudder makes a broach much more likely in either case.

I have only sailed Sea Pearls with Marconi rig sails so don't know if lug rigs make a difference. One thing that I do know about Sea Pearls and other true double ended boats is this: They are strictly displacement hulls. When running off in strong wind they can get real squirrelly because they are trying to go faster and can't. Around here I see them reef sailing downwind way before a CS sailor would think of it. A broach is usually caused by the following wave surfing the boat forward into the backside of the wave ahead. If the following wave doesn't hit the boat directly in the stern (which is usually the case), The force of the off angle wave slews the boat around and the result can be a broach or capsize.

The CS and other boats designed with the possibility of planing in mind don't often have this problem. In high wind or a gust, they just pick up and go and actually become more stable on plane than before. Of course, in a race, we push often push a boat harder than normal and then bad things happen.

Edited: Just re-read your post and wonder if you had both sails forward on the same side? I had assumed you were running wing and wing which will tend to balance the boat and help prevent a broach. If they were both trimmed forward on the same side, I don't think I would do that.

Carl Cramer

12-08-2009, 03:15 PM

I've been asked to look into the possibility of a "special" for visitors from overseas or far away.
The breif ended up as follows.
The frames, rudder, sail and centerboard have to fit into a Mountain Bike air luggage bag along with full sized paper patterns for all the major parts.
The clients, ( in this case three couples to build and sail three boats ) fly in with these plus basic hand tools, pick up a rental van and go shopping for cheap plywood, alloy tube, epoxy and glass cloth ( preordered and delivered to the motel or where ever they plan to stay) , and the boats to be cut and taped together over 4/5 days. One or two coats of plastic paint just for sensibilities sake, and test sail for half an hour or so before taking off in the event.
In this case its the Texas 200, but the boats would work for any of the raids or the EC event. A freind is busy building a prototype right now, but I may have been a little optimistic as to what he could achieve in the time allowed, there are about 4 days fulltime in it so far and he has a boat that needs a seat, decks, and centercase plus fair off the tapes and paint it.
Mind you he's a complete first time builder and the second time one would be much quicker.
Meanwhile Dave Perillos AWOL is getting close to launching and would make a really interesting entry. http://www.openboat.co.nz/
And no its not even remotely related to a scow. Or a sharpie or dory for that matter.

On this thread in general, no one has mentioned yet that part of the reason that Graham Byrnes does so well is that he is a very very good sailor and to beat him you not only need a boat as quick as his, but sailing and navigation skills at least as good or better.

John Welsford

John -- So you're going public with your briefing? How is it coming along? Of course I'll want to build a couple. I think it's a fascinating concept.....

And thanks for chiming in on My Rant of the Week. Best wishes to you, Carl

Dan St Gean

12-08-2009, 03:45 PM

I want to do the OBX130 in a scow with a Birdwatcher cabin. Hang back, carry spare water, booze, food, tools, parts and such. Just be there for the scenery with no thought of racing.

An event like the E.C. is a few seasons off at least for me.

Try on of Jim Michalak's boats for size like
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/jewel1.jpg
Dan

perldog007

12-08-2009, 04:16 PM

Maximus

12-08-2009, 05:25 PM

What would be a lighter build if you were trying to avoid a framed structure, building with plywood or strip build? I think that you can make better compound curves with stripbuilding, but ply offers a lot of ease and speed in construction.

john welsford

12-08-2009, 06:08 PM

I thought that it might be of interest to those not able to transport a boat into an event like the EC or Texas 200, the prototype is not quite right, there is too much shape forwards to twist it in to the stem so it needs a higher degree of building skill than I think is ideal but its a learning experience for both Blair as builder and myself as designer.
Look for the Mk 11 "Saturday Night Special" when we've sailed this one.
On your rant, I am very sure that yachting as a sport is becoming less and less accessible to the less than wealthy, and thats not a good thing. Even in NZ and Aussie where competitive dinghy sailing was until the mid 80s or so cheap enough for Joe average to be competitive and to enjoy the sport the concentration on very high performance one class boats has meant that only a very few are physically capable and have enough spare money to enjoy the sport.

I'll be pitching in with more thoughts.

John Welsford

John -- So you're going public with your briefing? How is it coming along? Of course I'll want to build a couple. I think it's a fascinating concept.....

And thanks for chiming in on My Rant of the Week. Best wishes to you, Carl

John Bell

12-08-2009, 09:18 PM

I'm gearing up for the EC in 2011. I plan to do it in this, though.

http://www.sailswsc.org/php/photo_gallery/2009_1003Race/142.jpg

Oh, and I'm going to try to build a PDR before this September.

bluedog225

12-08-2009, 10:22 PM

Bluedog,

When running off in strong wind they can get real squirrelly because they are trying to go faster and can't. Around here I see them reef sailing downwind way before a CS sailor would think of it. A broach is usually caused by the following wave surfing the boat forward into the backside of the wave ahead. If the following wave doesn't hit the boat directly in the stern (which is usually the case), The force of the off angle wave slews the boat around and the result can be a broach or capsize.

Edited: Just re-read your post and wonder if you had both sails forward on the same side? I had assumed you were running wing and wing which will tend to balance the boat and help prevent a broach. If they were both trimmed forward on the same side, I don't think I would do that.

Thanks Tom. That's as good a description of what happened as any I have been able to conjure up and actually helps explain why she spun so quickly. Memory is not what it used to be but I believe I did have both on the same side. Not really by choice.

I realized I was in over my head about the same time I reached the middle of the bay.

I have been trying to figure out every detail of every mistake so I don't have to learn them again the hard way. Some have suggested (in another forum) that it was just a bad idea to have a boat my size out in those conditions. But others in much smaller craft did fine (all the PDRs finished).

Appreciate the response.

Tom

Steve Paskey

12-08-2009, 10:38 PM

Another Storer design no one has mentioned is the raid 41 (unless I missed it), but that looks like a real work out for and EC, it having a narrow beam.

A prototype of the raid41 was built, and it turned out to be very difficult to get back into the boat after a capsize. Michael has gone back to the drawing board and started over.

wtarzia

12-09-2009, 01:30 AM

With that in mind I'd like to start getting some input from forum readers about design considerations to incorporate into a design to give the EC22 a run for it's money. Keep in mind there are some design limitations put forth by the race, plus the checkpoint limits.

--- Use Randy Smyth's trimaran Sizzor and don't capsize it. He was way ahead of everybody in the last race, until he did. (Maybe de-power it a tad). Other than that, build an EC22 and sail it better than Byrnes ;-) -- Wade

johnw

12-09-2009, 01:55 AM

A prototype of the raid41 was built, and it turned out to be almost impossible to get back into the boat after a capsize. Michael has gone back to the drawing board and started over.
I don't think the problem was getting back in. The skipper had no safety line tying him to the boat, and when he let go of it to grab some piece of equipment that was floating away after a capsize, the boat righted itself and sailed away. It might be because it had twice the designed amount of water ballast. I'd say the lesson is that in something like the T200, you need a safety line.

john welsford

12-09-2009, 02:13 AM

I dont know the Sea Pearl , we dont see them here but can I suggest that running dead flat downwind in a blow is generally a recipe for a capsize. I prefer to run on a very broad reach and gybe occasionally to maintain the course I want. This means that if you get overpowered you can round up adn dump some wind, or if a wave is threatening to surf you into the back of another wave you can round up and surf along to lose speed, and the other issue is that when dead flat off with the sails well forward the twist in the top of the sails will be trying to capsize you to windward which will be the last thing that you are expecting to happen.

John Welsford

Thanks Tom. That's as good a description of what happened as any I have been able to conjure up and actually helps explain why she spun so quickly. Memory is not what it used to be but I believe I did have both on the same side. Not really by choice.

I realized I was in over my head about the same time I reached the middle of the bay.

I have been trying to figure out every detail of every mistake so I don't have to learn them again the hard way. Some have suggested (in another forum) that it was just a bad idea to have a boat my size out in those conditions. But others in much smaller craft did fine (all the PDRs finished).

Appreciate the response.

Tom

johnw

12-09-2009, 02:22 AM

A couple months ago I was up at the Center for Wooden Boats storage area, and was looking at Butterfly, an L. Francis Herreshoff design to what he preferred to call the development class, though it is generally known as the Suicide class. Big cockpit, narrow side decks, easily driven hull. I think it could be a good sail and oar boat, about 20 feet long. Build it plywood lapstrake, it could be fairly light. His father also designed a similar boat for the class, called Pig in a Bag. It had a variety of rigs, including a two-masted leg-of-mutton sprit rig like a New Haven sharpie.

Craic

12-09-2009, 04:01 AM

If tough weather and seas are to be expected and if rowing would be permitted, like in a proper raid, a BayRaider would be superb. We race that a lot and though it is a serial boat it s among Europe's fastest and most capable raid boats, custom builds included.

John Turpin

12-09-2009, 08:52 AM

I dont know the Sea Pearl , we dont see them here but can I suggest that running dead flat downwind in a blow is generally a recipe for a capsize.

I was in that same event with Tom and can testify that those conditions were very tough. First of all, that bay is quite shallow and the fleet had to travel (in increasingly shallow water) to the far leeward end of the bay to get into a land-locked channel called "the Land Cut". There is no real maneuvering there and getting out of the ICW channel there gets you in mud quickly. You just race before the wind and try to get into the protection of the Cut. Winds were howling that morning--already 20+ early in the morning and advisories were out. Wind was dead astern. Besides the wind and lack of sea room for maneuvers, the shallow wind-whipped bay built up small steep little rollers that hit square on the stern. And, a new roller came every few seconds--some breaking.

I was in a 15' Potter and need all of my concentration to avoid broaching. Had a broach started, I never could have stopped it. So, Tom (and all of us) were in a tough situation that morning. So, I hope that puts a little perspective into the discussion of Tom's disaster. He had his hands full.

perldog007

12-09-2009, 02:15 PM

Does anyone who has attended the E.C. have any thoughts on what percentage are there to race as opposed to how many just want to finish?

Tom Lathrop

12-09-2009, 05:26 PM

I've been asked to look into the possibility of a "special" for visitors from overseas or far away.

--------------------------

On this thread in general, no one has mentioned yet that part of the reason that Graham Byrnes does so well is that he is a very very good sailor and to beat him you not only need a boat as quick as his, but sailing and navigation skills at least as good or better.

John Welsford

John, that sounds like it could be a good idea for a raid like the T200 where participants get to come in and rest, repair and just catch up every night. For an event like the EC, the boat plays a lesser role and the sailors and their preparation are very important in order to finish. Might still work though.

And you are just fishing for someone to say that Graham is such a good sailor because he is an Aussie:D:D I have been sailing with and against Graham for many years. On a closed course we are about equal, but on the ocean, his experience drarfs mine.

Tom Lathrop

12-09-2009, 06:13 PM

I dont know the Sea Pearl , we dont see them here but can I suggest that running dead flat downwind in a blow is generally a recipe for a capsize. I prefer to run on a very broad reach and gybe occasionally to maintain the course I want. This means that if you get overpowered you can round up adn dump some wind, or if a wave is threatening to surf you into the back of another wave you can round up and surf along to lose speed, and the other issue is that when dead flat off with the sails well forward the twist in the top of the sails will be trying to capsize you to windward which will be the last thing that you are expecting to happen.

John Welsford

Of course you are correct in conditions that dictate that approach. Sometimes running dead downwind is necessary though. There is also a difference in the best course to take in different boats. In a cat ketch like the CS we were discussing, the sail areas are much closer to balance in a wind and wing setting than a yawl or other boat where one sail dominates. These boats also have self vanging sprit booms that tend to prevent the twist in the upper leach as the sail is let out. The Sea Pearl has foot booms and must be vanged to prevent twist. Even though the Sea Pearl is ballasted (water or lead), it is not nearly as stiff as a CS of similar size. Having been launched to windward from Lasers and other such boats, I know what you mean by that.

I had the opportunity to look at one of your Pathfinders at the SRR in Maine this year. It appears to be a very rugged and seaworthy vessel and good looking as well.

WI-Tom

12-09-2009, 06:13 PM

Anybody done either of these races in a Bolger Light Schooner? Seems ideal, except for the daggerboard.

Dave Gentry

There was a Bolger folding schooner at this year's Texas 200; they finished, but I didn't see them much. Funny thing was, it looked like the same size as my 14' 6" Bolger pirate racer--just twice as long. A loooong boat, that.

And:

That boat ( the sand flea 8') is on the PDR site so it makes me think some worthy intrepid will give it a whirl.

I've heard from at least one Texas 200 PDR sailor that he's planning to try the EC in a PDR--maybe 2011.

Tom

Daniel Noyes

12-09-2009, 06:35 PM

Ben Fuller

12-09-2009, 08:15 PM

One of the seminal sailing books of my youth was Paul Elvstrom's. First analysis I think of the "death roll." Cure it, pull the sail in, and trim to the top of the sail not the boom. Mechanially it's simple: top of the sail when its ahead of the mast rolls you to windward, bottom of the sail wants you to roll to leeward. Of course if you can hack it, rolling a laser or sunfish up on its weather rail and letting the sail right out can be real fast.....but swimming is slow.

It is possible to roll a stayed rig, just harder. Depends on whether there is a bunch of sail that can get ahead of the mast above the shrouds.

bluedog225

12-09-2009, 08:25 PM

I dont know the Sea Pearl , we dont see them here but can I suggest that running dead flat downwind in a blow is generally a recipe for a capsize. I prefer to run on a very broad reach and gybe occasionally to maintain the course I want. This means that if you get overpowered you can round up adn dump some wind, or if a wave is threatening to surf you into the back of another wave you can round up and surf along to lose speed, and the other issue is that when dead flat off with the sails well forward the twist in the top of the sails will be trying to capsize you to windward which will be the last thing that you are expecting to happen.

John Welsford

Thanks John. That's the kind of advice I'm after. I'd like to complete the T200 and take on the EC but I've lost confidence in my ability to keep the boat upright in rough water. And the boat's a little too big for trial and error.

I realize having too much sail up was almost certainly my biggest problem but I'd like some other strategies to keep her upright (and I'd like to know other "obvious" mistakes to avoid).

Does anyone know of a book I ought to read on the topic of heavy weather sailing. I've got a few books but hey are not much help:

The Small-Boat Sailor's Bible (Smith)
Sail, Race, and Win (Twiname)
Dingy Ownership for the non racing man (Nightingale)
Seamanship (Time)
and even one called something like "Heavy Weather Sailing."

I just glanced through them again and I don't think they mention practical things like tripping on a leeboard, whether or not to run the sails forward of the mast, not sailing dead downwind, running into the wave in front of you, etc.

Any advice is good advice.

Tom

john welsford

12-09-2009, 09:38 PM

The boat I'm working on is specifically for the Texas 200, Ive researched the prevailing weather and sea conditions and that plus the fact that there are no "gates" that require rowing or poling up narrow channels and under bridges means that the boat can be quite different to what would work well for the EC with lots of light winds and an obstacle course to negotiate.

Me defending Graham Byrnes because he is an Aussie would be like a Canadian defending an American in an argument, not very likely. But he is a very good sailor, and even in a boat that might be a "bit of a handful" he'll cream most others.

John Welsford

John, that sounds like it could be a good idea for a raid like the T200 where participants get to come in and rest, repair and just catch up every night. For an event like the EC, the boat plays a lesser role and the sailors and their preparation are very important in order to finish. Might still work though.

And you are just fishing for someone to say that Graham is such a good sailor because he is an Aussie:D:D I have been sailing with and against Graham for many years. On a closed course we are about equal, but on the ocean, his experience drarfs mine.

john welsford

12-09-2009, 09:48 PM

I've been there and done that too. In Lasers as well as bigger keelboats. If you really want something that demands very close attention try racing a Mini Transat, all 21 ft long and 2300 sq ft of downwind rig, on a downwind leg when its blowing. One soon learns the niceties needed to keep the boat under the rig, and also to aim at the low spots in the waves as you overtake them ( 18/20 knots, Wooo hoo! But very tiring after a couple of days of it)
I do think that a lot of our adventure racers as well as cruising dinghy sailors would benefit from sailing a performance boat in round the bouys racing where there is someone to pick up the pieces when they make mistakes. One learns from mistakes, and cruisers dont normally push hard enough to make those learning opportunities happen because the consequences are too severe, so when they do push hard they get beyond their experience very quickly.

Thanks for you kind comment on my Pathfinder design, it was intended as a long range cruiser that would cope with being caught out in really severe weather, and so far they seem to be filling that role very well. Nice to hear that they are being seen out and about.

John Welsford

Of course you are correct in conditions that dictate that approach. Sometimes running dead downwind is necessary though. There is also a difference in the best course to take in different boats. In a cat ketch like the CS we were discussing, the sail areas are much closer to balance in a wind and wing setting than a yawl or other boat where one sail dominates. These boats also have self vanging sprit booms that tend to prevent the twist in the upper leach as the sail is let out. The Sea Pearl has foot booms and must be vanged to prevent twist. Even though the Sea Pearl is ballasted (water or lead), it is not nearly as stiff as a CS of similar size. Having been launched to windward from Lasers and other such boats, I know what you mean by that.

I had the opportunity to look at one of your Pathfinders at the SRR in Maine this year. It appears to be a very rugged and seaworthy vessel and good looking as well.

wtarzia

12-09-2009, 10:50 PM

Does anyone who has attended the E.C. have any thoughts on what percentage are there to race as opposed to how many just want to finish?

--- Generally at least a third drop out or are disqualified. -- Wade

bluedog225

12-09-2009, 11:00 PM

--- Generally at least a third drop out or are disqualified. -- Wade

Good point to be aware of, there isn't a way to "opt out" of they T200 or, as far as I can tell. Once you in the race, your retrieval vehicle is at the end of the race. So if you decide to drop out, you have a logistical problem of getting your trailer and boat put back together. Tends to keep you in the race longer that might be wise.

Tom Lathrop

12-10-2009, 08:00 AM

John,

I have always believed that starting in a dinghy and most particularly racing in them is the very best grounding for becoming a good boat handler and seaman. Good point about aiming the boat at the low point while sailing offwind in waves. I always called this "keeping the bow pointed downhill". There is more to it than that but the idea is to keep the boat surfing and going fast as long as possible.

My comment about Aussies was a bit naughty. The Aussie-Kiwi feud is well known and kind of like our own Yankee-Southerner engagements. I don't know the source of the Aussie-Kiwi battle though.

Chris Ostlind

12-10-2009, 08:23 AM

I don't know the source of the Aussie-Kiwi battle though.

I believe that Darwin had a decent take on how that may have come about... ;-)

Swidm

12-10-2009, 09:15 AM

Thinking of a boat for the EC has kept me awake through many a boring meeting. I think it would be hard to compete for speed with the Everglades Challenger but I also think that is a two person boat for this event. One boat I have thought of is Gavin Atkin's Light Trow which is a 16' ketch rigged sharpie type boat that would both row and sail well. I would change the daggerboard for a centerboard. I believe I will be doing the EC in 2011 but, given my time, probably with my modified Bateau C12 "Little Gem" which is a 12' long cat (soon to be sloop) rigged boat that has done well at Cedar Keys, Usseppa Island, and the Florida 120 challenge last May.

I would highly recommend doing some of the shorter raid type events before the EC as a shakedown cruise. The Florida 120 is always scheduled the weekend after Mother's Day (May 13th to the 16th) from Josephine, Al to Navarre, Fl and back along the turquoise water and sugar white sands of Santa Rosa sound and Pensacola bay. With soft beaches, protected water, resupply points, and several bail out points this is probably the easiest introduction to distance sailing. We had 24 boat participate last year but no Puddle Duckers probably due to the windward work required for part of the trip.

The next weekend is the OBX 130 along the Atlantic coast where there are fewer bail out points and you have to contend with more tides. This event will provide a little more stringent a shake-down cruise. Finally, there is the Texas 200 which provides a real good test for the EC along the Texas coast with mud, wind, and few bailout points.

I am hoping to do the FL 120 and the OBX 130 this summer and would have done the Texas200 but for a family reunion. This will provide a lot of good information to tweak my rig and provender before the EC in March 2011

Dan St Gean

12-10-2009, 10:18 AM

I like Jim's stuff and have a set or two of his plans in my collection.

Something like that is probably what I take to my first event. Maybe the smaller IMB or Zeiger's boxy T16. I really like the original Birdwatcher but think it's a bit beyond my skills.

I looked at Chris's site and this one caught my eye..

http://www.lunadadesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/lpc01-400x300.jpg

That looks promising for moving out with a purpose. If I were into speed that's the general direction I would be headed in.

Dan, from the videos on the TX200 site your boat didn't look slow.

Kellan's boat really looks great. Check out his blog for more...
My Tamanu was on it's maiden voyage and the boat had several teething issues.
#1 Didn't have time to extend the H18 rudder to the (wider) beam of the Tamanu--too much rudder toe in =drag and cavitation at 10+ knots.
#2 Hobie beams were never made for this much stress

So while we were fast, balanced, and comfy, we chose to go slowly to hold the boat together. I even moved the leeboard to the foreward cockpit and ran on all points under just jib.

Dan

john welsford

12-10-2009, 11:57 AM

New Zealanders will tell you that the European settlers of Australia were selected by the very best British Judges ( sent there as convicts) whereas New Zealanders came here because they wanted to be here. But thats just part of whats really scrapping between siblings who really have a great deal in common, and commentary by Kiwis who tend to be a bit defensive about our much bigger neighbour. But if you want to hear really bad jokes ask an Aussie about Tasmanians.

I'm about to make a posting over on Carls rant about dinghy prices which has a bearing on "starting in a dinghy". I very much agree but feel that the cost and extremely physical nature of the classes that yacht clubs are tending to foster are making entry into competitive sailing difficult for all but the young and well to do, which aint most of us.

John Welsford

John,

I have always believed that starting in a dinghy and most particularly racing in them is the very best grounding for becoming a good boat handler and seaman. Good point about aiming the boat at the low point while sailing offwind in waves. I always called this "keeping the bow pointed downhill". There is more to it than that but the idea is to keep the boat surfing and going fast as long as possible.

My comment about Aussies was a bit naughty. The Aussie-Kiwi feud is well known and kind of like our own Yankee-Southerner engagements. I don't know the source of the Aussie-Kiwi battle though.

switters

12-10-2009, 12:04 PM

sirgordy

12-10-2009, 12:09 PM

I've been on the beach for five EC starts and it looked to me like EVERYONE was there to race. True, only a half dozen really felt they had a chance, but the conditions will dictate. What I've seen is that each entrant will do his or her very best and anyone who finishes is truely a winner.

If the wind had been lighter Lumpy and Bumpy would have to stop and rest. As fast as they are, it may not have mattered. A few years ago Graham won just a few hours ahead of a SOLO kayak! Just a little less wind and the kayaker would have taken it.

At Key Largo the finishers often look exhausted. If there's light wind or headwinds, or both, it could easily add a day to the fastest sailboats.
Of course the kayakers don't fit into any pattern. They just keep ticking away at 5 - 6 knots all day and then sleep for 15 minutes and do it again. Ok, maybe more than 15 minutes, but really, they aren't from the same gene pool as the rest of us.

My personal opinion is that the best approach would be to take a proven boat such as a Core Sound, Sea Pearl, Norse Boat or something similar and do the Challange once or twice. THEN build your Megga-Turbo-Screamer.

When you're adding all your go-fasties don't forget comfort. A cozy little cuddy and a swinging stove, not to mention a helm that's comfortable after numerous hours at 3 knots can mean a lot after three days.

Tom Lathrop

12-10-2009, 02:17 PM

Hi Gordo,

Missed you at the messabout. You gotta quit working so hard. Retirement allows a lot more time for sailing:p

sirgordy

12-10-2009, 06:06 PM

Retirement may be coming sooner than I expected. It seems the County government has decided they can do without an EMS helicopter...

It may be time to build an EC 18! (Notice I don't take my own advice.)

Ben Fuller

12-10-2009, 07:14 PM

Thanks John. That's the kind of advice I'm after. I'd like to complete the T200 and take on the EC but I've lost confidence in my ability to keep the boat upright in rough water. And the boat's a little too big for trial and error.

I realize having too much sail up was almost certainly my biggest problem but I'd like some other strategies to keep her upright (and I'd like to know other "obvious" mistakes to avoid).

Does anyone know of a book I ought to read on the topic of heavy weather sailing. I've got a few books but hey are not much help:

The Small-Boat Sailor's Bible (Smith)
Sail, Race, and Win (Twiname)
Dingy Ownership for the non racing man (Nightingale)
Seamanship (Time)
and even one called something like "Heavy Weather Sailing."

I just glanced through them again and I don't think they mention practical things like tripping on a leeboard, whether or not to run the sails forward of the mast, not sailing dead downwind, running into the wave in front of you, etc.

Any advice is good advice.

Tom

Sailing an International Canoe on the Berkeley Circle really gets you to pay attention to dead downwind skills and jibing in an inherently unstable boat in a breeze. Besides steer for the troughs, getting your weight back in the boat helps, as does some heel to windward which helps fight the broachiness. At least keep the boat as flat as you can. Also, somewhat counter intuitive, is a need not to put much board down; let's the boat slide and skid in the puffs.

I don't think that the cat ketch rigs that now are popular are the handiest in these dead down wind conditions. Jibs and spinnakers have a lifting component to them where as most boomed aft of the mast sails do not unless they are extremely well raked.

I often think that a power kite with its pivot point down on the bow might be real good. Friend of mine did a large part of the Oregon coast in a skin on frame kayak under kite propulsion.

Ben

Chris Ostlind

12-10-2009, 11:10 PM

... Jibs and spinnakers have a lifting component to them where as most boomed aft of the mast sails do not unless they are extremely well raked.

Uh-oh... can of worms alert. An argument that can never be solved.

I often think that a power kite with its pivot point down on the bow might be real good. Friend of mine did a large part of the Oregon coast in a skin on frame kayak under kite propulsion.

I think that kites have real potential for the right kind of boat, but the attachment point should be aft of the bow, or the boater is asking for massive trouble should the wind really rip through and the chicken loop is unattended.

Nothing like a lightweight boat like a canoe, or kayak, doing a tail walk for several hundred yards before slamming down in a heap.

Chris O

Ben Fuller

12-11-2009, 06:09 AM

Uh-oh... can of worms alert. An argument that can never be solved

I think that kites have real potential for the right kind of boat, but the attachment point should be aft of the bow, or the boater is asking for massive trouble should the wind really rip through and the chicken loop is unattended.

Nothing like a lightweight boat like a canoe, or kayak, doing a tail walk for several hundred yards before slamming down in a heap.

Chris O

I should have elaborated, kites need something like what in the spinnaker business we call a "twing" up forward. You can use it to adjust the angle that the kite line has with the boat.

As far as lifting: practical experience in a variety of high performance assymetrical light dinghies. Pop the kite on say a International Canoe and watch the attitude change. Makes wave stuffing much harder..... but it can be done. Even in the old 14 days pre assymetrical we had a "storm" chute that bailed us out of really bad things. If one wants to look at the vectors, Bethwaite's book works. For people who like traditional, that analysis has been done for Norweigian square sails as well.

There is one company now doing kites to yacht racing specs and having pretty good results ( big boats , lots of dough). For EC and little boats there are many more options. Practical experience tells me though that kites are challenging if you are single handing, and unless you spend the dough for a kite board kite, they are pretty slow if you put one in the drink.

Tom Lathrop

12-11-2009, 08:03 AM

I should have elaborated, kites need something like what in the spinnaker business we call a "twing" up forward. You can use it to adjust the angle that the kite line has with the boat.

, Bethwaite's book works.
.

I always set twing lines on the rail midships to keep the spinnaker from steering the boat when it oscillated and to prevent oscillation in the first place.

Bethwaite is a real innovator and his book is probably the best available now.

Dan St Gean

12-11-2009, 10:15 AM

There was a Bolger folding schooner at this year's Texas 200; they finished, but I didn't see them much. Funny thing was, it looked like the same size as my 14' 6" Bolger pirate racer--just twice as long. A loooong boat, that.

Tom

That's cause it's FAST off the wind. I caught him on day two while cruising at 10-12 in my Hobie 18--but he musta been going 8-9 pretty consistently. Long waterline and a flat run for planing....

Dan

wtarzia

12-11-2009, 11:56 AM

I think I have this before on another thread, but it is worth saying again: I always thought that a Yakaboo-like sailing canoe would be an interesting contender for the EC.

As I recall, its dimensions were on the order of 39 inches beam, and 17 feet length. That gives a very nice waterline as far as skin resistence and hull speed goes for both paddling and sailing. The beam is narrow enough for speedy sailing for an active sailor, but wide enough so that scratching your nose will not upset the boat.

It is also wide enough to add a couple of reasonably small-siized rowing outriggers for any long-term doldrums, current, or head-wind work. And if you find a decent inlet or get stuck or exhausted at an inconvenient place, I suppose you could sleep or nap in the cockpit and save the trouble of setting up a camp (and in some places where exhaustion can hit you on the EC, there is no good place to sleep on land). (I was a little dismayed at the EC meeting when Chief told us about the need for "stealth camping" and if caught to NOT mention we were EC racers -- I hadn't known the racers would sometimes have to be camping illegally! I guess this suited Chief's 'former-Marine' persona, but I am not turned on by 'invading' :-) and thought how nice it would be to have sleep-aboard capability for an EC boat.)

Finally of course, the draft is just right for all those shallows and bars. I am not aware of a Yakaboo being used on this race (though I am no EC historian!), but plenty of variety of monohull canoes have been used -- perhaps the closest to the Yakaboo hull is the Krueger Cruiser canoe (?), but I do not know if anyone had a substantial Yakaboo-like sailing rig on one. -- Wade

Ben Fuller

12-11-2009, 01:04 PM

This is starting to look like Uffa Fox's Double handed sailing canoe that crossed the English channel, went cruising the French coast and came home. Twin sliding seats. When Steve Clark and I have kicked around the idea, the outriggers for the oars get built into the sliding seat carriage.

switters

12-11-2009, 01:09 PM

cbreaux

12-11-2009, 01:50 PM

That's cause it's FAST off the wind. I caught him on day two while cruising at 10-12 in my Tamanu cat--but he musta been going 8-9 pretty consistently. Long waterline and a flat run for planing....

Dan

you mean you blew past them! we would have slowed down, but we could not figure out how to reef!

Cheers!
Breaux

wtarzia

12-11-2009, 03:00 PM

are you going again in 2010? Same tri?

--- No, that double-outrigger is really a solo-boat despite its 21 feet. It's main hull is too skinny, not enough volume for double crew; even if it had not sprung that leak in the hull fitting, we would have plodded along, I think, at 4 knots, dragging both outriggers. (which we were happy to do -- all we wanted to do was finish!) I hope the skipper converts it back to a proa, the way it started its life -- it would be a fast solo boat, then. He was doing well solo on the proa during his first EC the previous year, before he hit a submerged object at speed (I think it was a refrigerator...)

For myself, I have to be invited as a crewmember ("intelligent meat ballast"). I can't take off enough time from teaching to drive a boat down and back, and take time for the race -- if time were not a factor, I would bring my own outrigger for sure. I hope I can try the EC again, somehow, before I collect too many more prescription meds :-( -- Wade

wtarzia

12-11-2009, 03:02 PM

johnw

12-11-2009, 04:50 PM

http://www.intcanoe.org/iclife/hist/hist_photos/tyson_brynhild.jpghttp://www.uffafox.com/brynhild.jpg

http://www.uffafox.com/brynhild.htm

Ben Fuller

12-11-2009, 05:00 PM

--- What was its name? I would like to see a photo or drawing if I could find one, just out of curiosity.--Wade

Sorry, senior moment. I needed to look it up and did not have time. John beat me to the posting...

Boat is Brynhild and still in existence, in fact has been restored. Published in Sail and Power, "To Britain in Brynhild." She is 20' x 4' board down draft and designed for a displacement of 650 lbs so boat probably weighs 200 to 250. Sail area 130 sq ft. Also published in the compilation called Best of Uffa.

"If we are fond of music, we play some instrument or sing, so that we may enjoy it; and if we are fond of the sea, we must sail on it in some form of boat..."

He was figuring on possibly coast hopping to the Med. It's quite a yarn. 1/16' diagonal planking, a layer of oiled silk and then 1/8" planking. Steve Clark and I often meditated on doing a modern version, a single plank wide enough for two, and a spinnaker. I think there are lines around done by one of the canoe sailors.

johnw

12-11-2009, 05:35 PM

You can buy the lines for Brynhild from the Uffa Fox website. Seems like a good project for cold molding. I figured that if they got the Atkins 1.25 class off the ground, they'd probably look like Brynhild.

wtarzia

12-11-2009, 11:12 PM

Thanks. An interesting canoe. More EC potential. -- Wade

Daniel Noyes

12-14-2009, 12:03 PM

Lewisboats

12-14-2009, 01:25 PM

Check out today's Duckworks article...about a boat that was designed specifically with the T200 in mind but would probably be suitable for the EC.

wtarzia

12-14-2009, 04:44 PM

Check out today's Duckworks article...about a boat that was designed specifically with the T200 in mind but would probably be suitable for the EC.

--- I saw that. Interesting boat, but I was wondering if they were ever planning to dip those sails and set them right ;-) (Though I am no expert, something seemed wrong; correct me if I'm wrong). -- Wade

Ben Fuller

12-14-2009, 08:01 PM

If you are building a mono hull I see three avenues for spped under sail, canoe, skiff, scow.

A modern performance canoe and skiff both require active sailing in all wind conditions meaning the sailors wont get a break.

A modern scow is of equal speed potential as the canoe and skiff but is a much stabler hull form requiring far less hiking for a given wind speed/boat speed thereby allowing the crew to stay well rested and sail the boat to it's best potential.

Once you get a modern International Canoe aimed in the direction you want it to go it is much easier to sail than a trap boat. If its puffy or you are trying to wring all performance out ( by hiking off the end of the seat) it is more difficult. That is why Uffa ran with a double handed canoe. It has relatively short slides ( feet on the gunwale) and a pretty modest rig, 130 sf, for two people. Skiffs and scows would be unpleasant to rig for efficient manual propulsion.

Duckworks

12-14-2009, 11:10 PM

In fact, two of the Texas200 heroes, Mike Monies and Andrew Linn are planning to campaign Mike's "LagunaDos" in the next EC. Good luck fellows.

Chuck

Chris Ostlind

12-15-2009, 06:52 AM

Welcome to the dope street cred of the WBF, Chuck... ;-)

Duckworks

12-15-2009, 09:06 AM

Thanks, Chris, this seems like a pretty active group. I figured if they let you and JohnW in, I could probably spoof the entrance exam too.

Maximus

12-15-2009, 09:22 AM

Ok, I keep thinking that a skiff that has an agressive rig would be the way to go in the EC. You can make it seaworthy still and get some speed and protection from it. Others keep bringing up a scow though, I'm a midwest guy so I'm use to the various scows here, and they are quick, but with the flat bow and low freeboard I question whether it a concept that would prove tough enough for an event like the EC. Does anyone have picture examples of something that would possibly work?

Duckworks

12-15-2009, 09:40 AM

The thing to remember about the EC is that everything depends on the weather. One year, Doug Cameron and his partner, Michael Collins, won in one of those tendem Kruger canoes with the outrigger and sail - I think from Balogh. Now in any 'normal' this kind of rig would get left way behind. But this year, there was no wind for the first three days so all the regular sailboats sat on the beach or bobbed in the bay while the kayaks took off. Doug and Michael could paddle so left with the kayaks and other canoes. But with their heavy boat and outriggers, they were at the tail end of the pack. Until day four when the wind started blowing. Now the faster sailboats could leave but were way behind - and the paddlers were wearing down so our heroes were able to sail past them one by one to finish first. So that year, a boat that was the slowest of the sailboats and the slowest of the paddle boats was able to beat everyone. The moral to this little tale is: "There aint no perfect boat for the EC". You pays yer money and you takes yer chances.

Maximus

12-15-2009, 09:48 AM

I agree totally with the last, but my sights and comments are pointed more towards a class 4 mono-sailboat design. Those crazy kayakers are in a whole different world!

Chris Ostlind

12-15-2009, 02:00 PM

I agree totally with the last, but my sights and comments are pointed more towards a class 4 mono-sailboat design. Those crazy kayakers are in a whole different world!

Based on Chuck's analysis above... and I have not one bit of criticism for that assement, it would seem that Class 4 sailors are just as crazy as are the kayakers. In fact, there have been years in which the sailing faction didn't have one word to say as to who would be at the front when the deal was done.

Whenever one very specific design solution enters a competition in which the conditions can vary all over the weather map, they are spinning a web of deceit that is all wrapped-up in the iffy proposition that they guessed correctly.

When somebody gets a totally accurate take on the weather for any particular sailing/paddling event, please let me know. I have several thousand dollars I would love to invest in that ability to know how it all works.

The only really solid bet is a boat that can handle all the conditions with a degree of authority, even if it can't be the fastest for any given end of the wild and wooly spectrum. Run the EC one hundred times and you will see paddlers getting their fair share, sailors getting theirs, as well, and the majority being claimed by a craft with attributes that successfully bridge the zone between the two.

That's my take and it's why I designed the XCR canoe/trimaran, shown in the post above, beached at Utah's Lake Powell. I'm just looking to kill the field with relentless consistancy over a very long look at the bell curve of results...

Chris O

slidercat

12-15-2009, 02:12 PM

Here's the boat I'd sail in the EC, if I ever get the chance:

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/slider1/mcreemorn2.jpg

But I'd install longer crossbeams to bump the beam out to the max allowed by the filter, and put a much bigger rig on her. I'd add a removable cuddy to one hull so the off-watch crew could sleep under cover. We might not win, but we'd finish in comfort.

Maximus

12-15-2009, 03:06 PM

Based on Chuck's analysis above... and I have not one bit of criticism for that assement, it would seem that Class 4 sailors are just as crazy as are the kayakers.

This wouldn't be the first time anyone has mention my name and crazy when it comes to sailing...and other things.

With regard to guessing the conditions, having a do it all well boat etc, I agree %100. That's why I keep my eye on the Class 4 boats, CS series, Sea Pearls and the EC22. They have a battle in their own class and each boat does certain things better than other. I can't see anyone in a monohull coming close to Lumpy and Bumpy's record anytime soon (I swear I saw one of those guys in Belize the other day), even if it were in a pure racing skiff.

That brings to mind something I saw on SA a while back where some guys in an 18ft skiff raced a bunch of Maxis in a blue water event in Aus. I guess they did ok, but get a little wet too.

The thing I like about the EC and other tough events is that you get some new designs out of it. Fast or tough or both, it's great for all of us to see that kind of development. Take what guys like John Welsford do to promote the sport, he keeps a lot of us hooked and sparks interest in others by the adventures that take place in his designs...THX John!

I'll keep daydreaming about my EC boat, maybe putz on some linesplans and keep the discussion going.

Chris Ostlind

12-15-2009, 03:33 PM

Max,

I'd very much like to see the result of your putzing. Sometimes it's very good to be outside the loop, as it were. Your take is from perceptions of the work of others, as well as your unique sense of what has worked for you in the past.

Nice of you to provoke the discussion.

wtarzia

12-15-2009, 05:46 PM

And the guy in the 14 foot skiff didn't do too badly either, last March. I'm trying to remember the boat model (it was a cute name) but can't, but it it was your basic well-thought out 14 foot commercial sailing skiff: bouyancy tanks, light, flattish bottom, front deck, side decks, and a small add-on wooden dodger into which he bundled his boom tent conveniently -- fast camp-in-boat set up. I seem to recall he took the longer outside route in south Florida similar to the EC22's route. So route planning/decision is part of the race especially in the final leg to Key Largo.

(I spent interesting nights studying the animated tide models on-line to see under what conditions tides flowed, and how fast, and where, along with typical winds, in that somewhat complicated shallow area. I was emotionally prepared for hours-long grounded in mud flats periods. One fellow in a Sea Pearl posted a fascinating hour-long (assembled from several bits) video-log of his EC experience, and I didn't forget his experience in that area, rowiing against current in places where he couldn't beat, back-tracking, having to swim his boat out at some point. And he seemed to be an experienced 'grizzled' fellow. He finished.) -- Wade

wtarzia

12-15-2009, 05:50 PM

Here's the boat I'd sail in the EC, if I ever get the chance:...

--- Go for it, Ray. I think your Cat would make a practical contender in its various compromises as measured against that course, a good bet to finish the race in reasonable time. -- Wade

wtarzia

12-15-2009, 05:54 PM

...why I designed the XCR canoe/trimaran, shown in the post above, ...

-- I'd also love to see this boat contend. It's rig has those qualities that the consistently well-performing boats have (ketch), not to mention its lightness and stability. I imagine it can be paddled at 3 knots reasonably well? --Wade

Chris Ostlind

12-15-2009, 06:29 PM

-- I imagine it can be paddled at 3 knots reasonably well? --

Yes.

A vaka, canoe hull, only will be entered in this year's Ultra Marathon event by Ben Algera from Michigan. http://www.bensboats.blogspot.com/

Ben's a competitive sort of guy and I'll get to find out how well it does in those waters, purely as a canoe. I suspect he'll be bitten severely by the whole thing. He says he wants to use the boat, configured for sailing, to do the full EC as a solo entrant the following year.

slidercat

12-15-2009, 11:07 PM

--- Go for it, Ray. I think your Cat would make a practical contender in its various compromises as measured against that course, a good bet to finish the race in reasonable time. -- Wade

I wouldn't win a sailing race against Randy or the Tornado guys, of course, even with a souped-up Slider, but that wouldn't really be my goal.

I'd just like to try to demonstrate that sailors in open boats needn't experience a great deal of pain in order to complete the course. I'd do some fishing along the way, carry my taffrail barbeque unit, and a couple bottles of good wine, and try like hell to appear rested at the finish line. I'd only want to do it two-handed, because I know I couldn't keep sailing safely without rest for several days.

I have to admit, the cost bothers me. The entry fees are not a lot less than the cost of Slider's materials.

I'm thinking about a couple of big yulohs for power in the calms. The ergonomics are right for two people to stand on the cockpit duckboards and have the yuloh come up about hip high.

wtarzia

12-16-2009, 12:03 AM

I wouldn't win a sailing race against Randy or the Tornado guys, of course, even with a souped-up Slider, but that wouldn't really be my goal...

I have to admit, the cost bothers me. The entry fees are not a lot less than the cost of Slider's materials.

I'm thinking about a couple of big yulohs for power in the calms. The ergonomics are right for two people to stand on the cockpit duckboards and have the yuloh come up about hip high.

--- As for winning, that's why I said "reasonable" time ;-) But the cat will get through the bridge filter and shallows, and be stable enough to maybe reduce some exhaustion factor.

Ah, the cost! Tell me about it. After I spent money for three months in the gym to whip my old body into shape, and bought good foul weather and cold weather gear, and some nice LED lights and such things, and plane fare, entry fee, and other stuff (not to mention the favors I had to get to cover my classes while away), I figure my EC T-shirt I got is a $2,000 T-shirt! Oh well. I didn't get into this hobby to save money.

As for yulohs, hmmm. Wouldn't twin sweeps, one for each crew, be more powerful? -- Wade

kenjamin

12-16-2009, 11:03 AM

After a careful reading of the EC rules, there's no way I'll be ready for the EC by March of next year but I do want to shoot for 2011. My problem is not the boat but the experience needed. Sailing at night is pretty much a requirement if you want to arrive in time to attend the big banquet from what I understand so I've got to get some of that under my belt first. I've also got to acquire and learn to use the array of safety equipment and put more reef points in my main. There's also the requirement for covering a third of an open boat or buying dry suits – all of which puts competing in the EC into some serious money and training. The good news for me is that being able to compete in the race dovetails nicely with my long term fishing plans of being able to safely reach deep water species with sail power.

Also I noticed in the rules that while you can't have any outside help in completing the race, you can accept any help you want or need from fellow competitors. You can even compete as a team. It would be neat to get several Caledonia Yawl owners to compete as a team. We probably wouldn't win but we might enjoy the race a lot more than many of the others. Any CY owners out there interested in EC 2011?

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/HeadedHome-sm.jpg

OconeePirate

12-16-2009, 11:41 AM

As for yulohs, hmmm. Wouldn't twin sweeps, one for each crew, be more powerful? -- Wade

I was wondering about the opposite. How about one yuloh in a bracket between the hulls with both of you working it together? More torque is always a good thing, right?

wtarzia

12-16-2009, 11:53 AM

You are also required to have a SPOT locator transponder, but I guess the prices have come down on them. The minimum equipment list for the EC is logical but we encountered problems packing it all in an 18 inch wide hull for two men and had to carry a couple of things lashed to the deck in WP bags. I was also under the impression that we had to carry food for the whole trip (up to 7 days or so) but evidently you are allowed to resupply at stores along the way if you want to take the time, and you could get water at the checkpoints. I hope that has been clarified better on their website.

However, if we did it again we agreed we would ditch the small dome tent and carry a Gor-Tex sleeping-bag bivvy sack for each of us; the kayakers had these. Having a sleep-aboard boat would be better still, as has been said, to actually RACE if you are a double-crew and have a chance to show a good time.

Even so, some solo sailors have managed to have good times, including Matt Layden in his 8 foot sailing pram. Layden admitted to good luck, and others admit Layden's great experience in small boats. But notice his little pram was a sleep-aboard boat. His bouyancy chambers were built into the sides, leaving a cockpit for sleeping in, protected by decking and a hatch that could be slid up against the rain (albeit in coffin-cabin conditions, so also pack some good pyschology for the trip ;-), and his gear stowed in WP bags and some in the bouyancy chambers (which had screw-in hatches). A boat like that seems to be a great EC design, and need not be 8 feet long. --Wade

wtarzia

12-16-2009, 12:10 PM

I was wondering about the opposite. How about one yuloh in a bracket between the hulls with both of you working it together? More torque is always a good thing, right?

--- I am not up on the physics of yuloh propulsion, I admit. Intuitively I have thought that the yuloh was designed for crowded harbors and narrow streams/canals, (where oars would hit other boats or the sides of a canal), and so the device was a compromise with the demographics and (literal) shape of the watery environment. The single-oared Venetian gondola evolved for the same environment, more or less (where the gondolas can pass each other safely going in opposite directions in the canal, taking up little more space than a single traditionally rowed boat).

I would love to be further educated in the physcis of rowing vs. yulohing, and which would provide the most efficient power gfree of the constraints of space. For example, is the yuloh analogous to the magneto-plasma rocket engine, which can operate continuously at extreme low thrust but over time can accelerate a spacecraft to high speed? Yet the brute force and inefficient chemical rocket engine is so far the only one that can lift a spacecraft to orbit. So if you see how I am thinking, how shall we compare the oar vs. yuloh?

The EC, except in a very few places, does not really restrict your physical space for rowing. The leverage might be the same for oar and yuloh, but the sweep of the blades are different. Many short fast strokes for yuloh vs. fewer long strokes for oar. There is so much about the dynamics at the tip of the oar and yuloh I would like to know about.

Also, perhaps some hydrodynamics of the angle of oar blade vs. yuloh blade are important, and the fact that an oar blade can be optimized for sweeping in one direction (curved blade). I don't know.

Perhaps I am being tyrannized by intuition. In fact that is likely the case since the yuloh is used successfully. But I cannot yet wrap my mind around being faced with a strong current (in a pass, say), the need to get through that current, and being given a yuloh to do the job. (I still have PTSD dreams from paddling a kayak up the Merrimack River Newburyport to Amesbury at ebb tide ;-) -- Wade

Maximus

12-16-2009, 08:45 PM

Light usually means fast, so with that in mind which is a lighter construction method; strip build or stitch and glue ply?

Now I'm speaking of boats in the 16 to 18ft size. I imagine that the strip work would be with western red cedar and the ply is okoume.

I know this may be like comparing apples and ornages, but if all other things are equal which would be the lighter choice? Examples and figures work well with my brain so give me your best.

wtarzia

12-16-2009, 10:17 PM

Light usually means fast, so with that in mind which is a lighter construction method; strip build or stitch and glue ply?...

--- Isn't there more glue involved in stripbuild? And wouldn't you be required to glass at least the outside of a strip-hull? Would you plan on glassing the outside of the ply hull any way so that aspect of weight would not be in competition? With Okuome ply you wouldn't be required to glass, I don't think, even if one might want to. But balance that against a more complex (efficient) hull shape if you made a strip hull and choose a hull with fine lines. That might make a difference in multi-day race? -- Wade

Maximus

12-16-2009, 10:20 PM

Ben Fuller

12-16-2009, 10:22 PM

--- I am not up on the physics of yuloh propulsion, I admit. Intuitively I have thought that the yuloh was designed for crowded harbors and narrow streams/canals, (where oars would hit other boats or the sides of a canal), and so the device was a compromise with the demographics and (literal) shape of the watery environment. The single-oared Venetian gondola evolved for the same environment, more or less (where the gondolas can pass each other safely going in opposite directions in the canal, taking up little more space than a single traditionally rowed boat).

I would love to be further educated in the physcis of rowing vs. yulohing, and which would provide the most efficient power gfree of the constraints of space. For example, is the yuloh analogous to the magneto-plasma rocket engine, which can operate continuously at extreme low thrust but over time can accelerate a spacecraft to high speed? Yet the brute force and inefficient chemical rocket engine is so far the only one that can lift a spacecraft to orbit. So if you see how I am thinking, how shall we compare the oar vs. yuloh?

The EC, except in a very few places, does not really restrict your physical space for rowing. The leverage might be the same for oar and yuloh, but the sweep of the blades are different. Many short fast strokes for yuloh vs. fewer long strokes for oar. There is so much about the dynamics at the tip of the oar and yuloh I would like to know about.

Also, perhaps some hydrodynamics of the angle of oar blade vs. yuloh blade are important, and the fact that an oar blade can be optimized for sweeping in one direction (curved blade). I don't know.

Perhaps I am being tyrannized by intuition. In fact that is likely the case since the yuloh is used successfully. But I cannot yet wrap my mind around being faced with a strong current (in a pass, say), the need to get through that current, and being given a yuloh to do the job. (I still have PTSD dreams from paddling a kayak up the Merrimack River Newburyport to Amesbury at ebb tide ;-) -- Wade

I don't know the break point between oars and yulohs; I do know that I can scull stuff that is too heavy to for me to row.... that is the plasma rocket engine I guess. You can nail a couple of uprights to a float and scull it across the harbor where you could not move it with an oar. The Chinese sometimes used yulohs with seven pushing and pulling and two working the rope. A good yuloh has a very large blade, shaped to help it pitch over. I think almost anything used in the EC would be better propelled with an oar, as you really want to be doing 4 knots or better.

Maximus

12-16-2009, 10:45 PM

My brain hurts from trying to draw on on delftship!

Maximus

12-16-2009, 11:42 PM

Ok, I threw back about good portion of a Crown Royal working on this. Be nice now guys, but let me know what you think. I know it's not everyone's bag...I just like it.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs119.snc3/16667_222849161848_636061848_3224858_1717321_n.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs119.snc3/16667_222849171848_636061848_3224859_5925390_n.jpg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs099.snc3/16667_222849176848_636061848_3224860_2094867_n.jpg

Maximus

12-16-2009, 11:43 PM

Mike V.

12-17-2009, 02:28 AM

That looks a lot like the EC22.

sirgordy

12-17-2009, 05:12 AM

Getting close!
I'd like a raked stem and fuller bows above the waterline for reserve boyancy.
Among other things, a cat-ketch rig would move the mast forward and keep it out of the sleeping area. Add tabernaciles and it's pretty much an EC22. Lets make it an '18' and nobody will know..

Tom Lathrop

12-17-2009, 09:34 AM

Actually Maximus, it does not look at all like an EC22. Way too little buoyancy in the bow and the chine beam appears to run parallel to the transom. I would not like to punch it into a wave downwind at speed since you would likely broach or submarine. Rowing might be a chore with poor results.

If you filled up the bow, took that blade knuckle out of the stem which does nothing good and could do bad things and then brought in the chines toward the stern a bit, it would begin to look like one of the common sport boats. Remember that the boat is going to be sailed at some angle of heel much of the time. Unless the chine beam tucks in a bit toward the stern, it is digging in a making drag. That is one reason to reduce chine beam there.

Depending on the weather conditions in a given year, rowing could be very important or minimal. In general, I would not make a large sacrifice of sailing qualities for rowing.

Space to rest or sleep is good but you will not want to be caught in a small cabin asleep if things go wrong in bad weather.

Lewisboats

12-17-2009, 10:17 AM

I have been noodling what I think I would like to build for a T200 or EC. I have about 6 different variations (beam, draft, chine angles etc) although this one is the front runner. This is for two people, it would be Ketch rigged, probably Balanced lug up front and maybe a standing lug in the back or perhaps just a Leg o' Mutton. I like Jim's idea of being able to use a single pole in the middle so the sail plan would have to be balanced enough to do that. Lifting Bilge boards so there is enough room to sleep on the floorboards.
LOA is 21 ft
Beam 5 ft
LWL runs 20 ft
BWL is a notch over 4 ft.
Draft is 5.5" at 900 lbs displacement and 6" at 1075 lbs displacement.

Hoping the hull would come in at around 450 lbs or half the design displacement. I would expect it to be a bit more loaded at the start of the trip...maybe another 1/4-1/2" of draft and lighten up as supplies are used up.

I don't anticipate it planing unless things get scary but it should move nicely and row just as well, especially with 2 stations.

Now...I just have to win the lottery to see if it would perform as anticipated :(

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/T200Linesplan.JPG

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/T200Curve.JPG

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/T200Developability.JPG

Maximus

12-17-2009, 10:28 AM

Ok, Thx for the feeback guys, I'll try to give you some insight into what I was thinking about when I was drawing this up, other than how much I like Whiskey.

-Forward buoyancy was brought up and has been on my mind too. I wanted a fine entry, but I though that I was hoping for a bit much with this one. I'll probably look at getting some more area packed in up there to help out.

-The rig I envision is actually a sloop/cutter in which I set it up in a tabernacle and have some kind of quick release for the stays. I also have an eye on a retractable bowsprit for running with a large Asym sail. That's another reason I was wonder about the fullness forward, I thought that a cutter would be able to be slimmer forward that a cat ketch set up. Oh, and don't take this as me not liking the ketch, in fact for most applications Id like the setup for ease of use.

-Sleeping/strorage was actually a big part of my thinking. The small cuddy in the pictures would not be entirely enclosed but rather set up to have the leading edge of a canvas tent like cover that would extend over the cockpit and have a raised floor over the centerboard box to sleep on.

-Rowing; I'm a sailor not a rower, and the extent to which I give rowing much though ends once I'm past CP1 and that bridge. I doubt the EC22 rows very well either, in fact most planning designs suck in light air, this on wouldn't be a lot different.

I'm more than willing to post the file on here if I can and let you guys play with the design too if you like. Thx again for your inpout and I'll take it to heart as I keep putzing on the boat.

Maximus

12-17-2009, 10:32 AM

Oh Steve I like it! I've been thinking that a boat like yours that similar to the Sea Pearl, but that isnt a double ender would be a great idea. You win the lotto and we'll build and go sail it around, looks great though!

Lewisboats

12-17-2009, 10:53 AM

Thank you! I like yours too but I think it would be a bit damp for my tastes ;) I did however do up something similar as an exercise...unfortunately I can't find it to save myself. I'm sure I have it on a hard drive...somewhere

wtarzia

12-17-2009, 11:37 AM

Hey Wade,

I have planned to glass the bottom of my daysailer with is ply. I think most people who use ply tend to glass the bottom to help protect it.

As far as the epoxy, I really am not sure. I'm pooring a lot into my project now, but it will get sanded down. The arguement of strip building is really the one of shape. It may or not be more work, that's another question that I'd have to ask someone who knows more about the two methods than I.

--- I was just thinking that, as for preventing checks, Okumoe could live without glass to make a boat 'racing weight' although a layer on the bottom against the oyster beds would be pragmatic.

I have built only one boat with ply and glass, but I can say that the addition of weight from glass and epoxy is deceptive and can creep up on the builder :-) (I finished the bottom with epoxy and graphite, and I kind of like the graphite -- you can touch up the midseason scratches with a small batch and it is done -- no painting later).

Everybody I have spoken with who built a strip boat said it takes longer than other methods. I know one guy saved some time by using ply for large flat runs and then stripping for the rounded edges. --Wade

Maximus

12-17-2009, 11:52 AM

I gave some thought about using ply for the upper sections and strip for a more rounded bottom. I actually got the idea while looking at a Clark/Owen Design that has a hardchine from stem to stern.

Daniel Noyes

12-17-2009, 01:35 PM

I gave some thought about using ply for the upper sections and strip for a more rounded bottom. I actually got the idea while looking at a Clark/Owen Design that has a hardchine from stem to stern.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2703/4140758735_2a204bbebf_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4140758735/) Thats how I built this boat, ply bottom and cedar strip planked sides.

What are the stats on your design? length, width, sail area, etc...

at 18' thats more performance skiff than one person can handle, nothing to do with sailing skill, simply not enough weight to keep the hull on it's feet and moving, all performance one man skiffs are in the 12-14 ft. range...were you planing on ballast?

Maximus

12-17-2009, 11:11 PM

slidercat

12-18-2009, 06:57 PM

I think that the yuloh might be inherently more efficient than oars or sweeps, because both strokes are power strokes-- when rowing, the boat must keep moving on inertia during the return stroke, when the oars are doing no work.

I think the page has disappeared, but at one time a guy from Japan
put up a site about what he called a "scientific" form of the Japanese yuloh-like device, though I can't think of the name right now. Anyway, he and a friend competed in a human-powered race, and won. The boat was a very light cat, I seem to recall-- just enough displacement to support the men powering it.

Daniel Noyes

12-18-2009, 07:19 PM

Hey Dan, I've been wanting to learn more about the various kinds of water ballast systems that have been used in other craft. I thought that if I could set up an asym. ballast system that it would greatly help balance the boat in stronger breezes while keeping it light so that it can ghost along in small puffs.

Does anyone know of somewhere that I could read up on water ballasting?

Water ballast would have an effect, certianly slow down the boats motion in gusty wind, but for asym water balast to be the most effective you want to get it as far to windward of the water line as possible, putting some radical flare in the sides and ballasting out near the gunnel.
the trick is how to get the water from one side of the hull to the other.

several have mentioned that different boats excell in different weather conditions, the Bagger 15 I have been tinkering with on another thread might beat all comers if the wind was 5-10 mph during the duration of the race but would not place as well if the larger boats with more conservative sail plans got decent wind.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2787/4129677422_37d821e83f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4129677422/)

johnw

12-18-2009, 07:25 PM

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs099.snc3/16667_222849176848_636061848_3224860_2094867_n.jpg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs119.snc3/16667_222849161848_636061848_3224858_1717321_n.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs119.snc3/16667_222849171848_636061848_3224859_5925390_n.jpg
For me, it looks too much like a powerboat. When you heel, you'll get induced drag from the corners of the transom and if you don't get your weight far enough forward, you'll get it across the whole transom.

Maximus

12-18-2009, 08:28 PM

I've made some changes, more buoyancy forward and a bit more flare over the length. I've also tried to tuck the transom up a bit, while still trying to keep it flat enough for planing. The run aft has also been flattened for better planning also. Let me know what you think.

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs119.snc3/16667_225676711848_636061848_3233474_6421506_n.jpg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs119.snc3/16667_225676716848_636061848_3233475_8068468_n.jpg

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs119.snc3/16667_225676726848_636061848_3233476_919793_n.jpg

bwd

12-18-2009, 10:20 PM

OK here's my take:
Narrow the transom another few inches and make the stem angle run nearly parallel to the innermost buttock, and you'll really be getting somewhere.
You may even be able to lift the chines/transom corners up a hair. It will be plenty long and pointy without so much rooting risk! Also probably easier to row.
And still have planing potential....
You haven't shown "centers" or hydrostatics, but I wonder where your CB and CG will be.
I might think you could pull a little buoyancy forward by making her just a bit deeper chested (i.e. inner 2 buttocks fwd of mast could run a bit deeper), and this could help. I might also contemplate a hair more flare fwd, and/or a little spray rail -just a piece of moulding glued on the outside, could knock down some of the sprays that pointy nose may kick up as you fly across the bay at mach 3....
But since actually it is not a "skiff" in the mach 3 sense, I might also move the max. chine beam fwd a foot. EDIT: or 3. Without a huge rig and two guys hanging from wires on the back corner, I can't quite see the need to be quite so wide-and-flat-arsed.
Likewise I would broaden the bow still just a bit more. I'd want a bit of flare in the bow and the WLs fwd not quite so hollow.
While fiddling interminably with delftship, you could see what you can do to minimize total panel surface area (weight) while keeping the hydrostatics in the neighborhood you like.
The less there is, the less it weighs and the less sanding you have to do...
...these are just the thoughts that come to mind looking at your lines posted.
And if you choose to contemplate these ramblings, keep in mind I am just a monkey with a fancy typewriter, not a NA;)

johnw

12-19-2009, 02:11 PM

Check out how the boat will sit with the crew in their normal positions. I think you'll need to position their weight about where the cabin is to avoid dragging half the ocean with you.

Here are the lines of one of the faster planing classes.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Qk62rRa2hGc/SmidcDlVQhI/AAAAAAAABCE/2yOP649Za5g/s400/Top-12.jpg
As you can see, it doesn't take a powerboat stern to get the boat planing. And one of the things that makes the 505 fast around the course is that it is also fast when it isn't planing.

You know those beautiful wineglass sterns on whitehall boats? The help people row fast by reducing wetted surface aft. Your desire to plane is at odds with your desire to row.

A deeper chest, a little more V to the shape, and a layout that allows the crew to sit well forward when they are not in planing mode should help with overall performance. Remember, much of the time you aren't planing. Because of the weight distribution problem, I'd get rid of the cuddy and rely on a boom tent for sleeping.

Maximus

12-19-2009, 03:19 PM

I have no desire to row at all! The absolute minimum would be just fine with me. And as far as crew weight is concerned, well that's pretty much just me and my less than solid 220lbs.

I can't imagine myself sitting all the way aft, and the cockpit extends nearly 7ft forward of the transom. Plus in an effort to carry more sail I see the water ballast tanks being installed just forward of the cockpit and under the cuddy along the sides of the hull.

Just curious, who wants to make a guess at the displacement of this design? Personally I think it's too light right now and is something I intend to address.

johnw

12-19-2009, 03:31 PM

Well, work out where you'll be sitting and where the tanks are, and figure out how much transom you'll be dragging at the heel angle you anticipate. Best is none at all.

Maximus

12-19-2009, 04:46 PM

I'll have to remember how to do the heeled waterlines again. It's been a couple months since I've played with that. Wasn't there a thread about that on here earlier?

Lewisboats

12-20-2009, 03:54 AM

I have since done more playing with the heeled thing and I wouldn't trust it. With the heel comes pitch but you have no idea how much to pitch the boat to accurately reflect the proper centers for the hull at that angle of heel. A wide bottomed boat like yours with so much beam aft will pitch forward as it heels and the waterline shape changes. Water pressure will increase the weather helm and pitch it nose down too. None of this can be even remotely accounted for by tricking the software so you are reduced to eyeballing things to get a VERY rough idea of what things might look like as the boat heels.

To get an idea...I would start with putting a station at what your hydrostatics tells you is the LCB...this point is directly under where the CG would need to be to have the hull sit at the current waterline. Will all the weights you anticipate come up with a center that is that far aft...if not then start pitching your boat forward by a degree or two (- pitch) and adjusting your waterline back to your original displacement until your CB is more in line with what the CG would most likely be. I think you will find that you will be significantly nose down from the current drawings. Add to that the tendency to go even more nose down at heel and I think you will want to do some more adjusting...even before you try to heel the hull. As you pitch the hull the transom will lift a bit so you might not have to lift the corners quite as much as you might think, but lifting the corners will increase the surface area presented as the boat heels and will provide more lift to plane on...so long as you don't go overboard with the deadrise angle at the transom. Play with heel and pitch and even yaw a bit but don't bet money on getting more than a general idea of the waterline shape or any real accuracy out of the hydrostatics because the program just isn't written to deal with the trickery used to produce the heeled images.

Lewisboats

12-21-2009, 11:31 AM

OY....found it! This is 12 ft long and would be a pretty wet and fun ride...don't know if I would want to do high mileage in it though. If you look at the run aft...the chine is almost flat but the keel line curves up a bit and the bows are fairly full, with lots of flare for secondary stability (sitting a large butt on the side decks necessitates this). It would heel a bit then stiffen up nicely, but hiking out some would keep it flattened out to plane. It would tend to drag a bit of transom at this trim but move a bit forward and the transom would lift and give a decent exit for slower displacement speeds.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FL120-12_Linesplan.JPG

johnw

12-21-2009, 02:03 PM

Lewisboats

12-28-2009, 12:07 PM

I did what you suggested and I actually like the result:

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FL120-12-1D.JPG

johnw

12-28-2009, 12:44 PM

I like it better now as well. Some fast, flat-bottomed powerboats have a little rocker forward to help them climb the bow wave, so it may help the boat plane as well as making it faster in displacement mode.

Daniel Noyes

12-28-2009, 08:55 PM

[QUOTE=Maximus;
With that in mind I'd like to start getting some input from forum readers about design considerations to incorporate into a design to give the EC22 a run for it's money. Keep in mind there are some design limitations put forth by the race, plus the checkpoint limits.

I would like to keep it 18ft or under since I usually sail alone

Centerboard would be most practical considering the shoal draft needs of the race...though ballasted and high AP ratio.

Brent[/QUOTE]

as designs I'm not seeing a 18'er that can give the 22' EC22 a run for it's money.
Yes the skiff hull is a very fast hull... when powered up by a huge rig and movable ballast in the form of crew positioned far to windward (or not depending on wind speed)

Max I dont think you as a single hander will have the weight to get your design powered up... look at a 18' skiff video...now imagine sailing that hard for 24 hrs. straight
not going to happen.

John your skiff looks far more doable, one person will be able to hike this boat hard and keep it on it's sailing lines... I think my 12' bagger could out sail this design, but there's no way either boat would even have a second look at the EC22 nevermind give it a run for it's money.