View Full Version : Mini-Cruiser from Mertens
DavesFlatsBoat
11-01-2004, 02:50 PM
I've been waiting for a discussion of Jacques Mertens' new design.
Adelie 14 (http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=AD14)
Looks Esoteric but functional to me, but we can fill up books with what I don't know about boats with masts.
http://www.boatplans-online.com/images/boatpics/AD14_110.jpg http://www.boatplans-online.com/images/boatpics/AD14_spin_300.jpg
Meerkat
11-01-2004, 03:39 PM
Interesting! First impression: a Westwight Potter for the 21st century! Second impression: a replacement for the, sadly, defunct "Peep Hen". IMO the Peep Hen is/was a better looking boat.
114 sq. ft. with that much windage suggests to me that she might be able to get herself into trouble. I.E: under canvassed.
Not excited about the lack of backrests for the cockpit seats. The "life lines" just look silly.
Venchka
11-01-2004, 06:41 PM
Meerkat,
There is hope for the Peep and all the other Hens. The Sea Pearl folks (Marine Concepts) got the molds. They might be back in production someday.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Venchka
11-01-2004, 06:47 PM
I'm all for going places in small boats, but that might be too small. Or too short actually. I figure you loose too much speed too fast when the waterline goes below about 15' or so.
The "cockpit/deck" arrangement aft looks scary. I can't picture Caty Grace and Emma back there without going swimming sooner or later. Heck, I'd probably go swimming sooner or later.
Nope. A big thumbs DOWN! from me.
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze, Meerkat & I agree on something. This is really scary. If you want a boat that size, wait for a used Peep Hen.
Wayne
In the Swmap. :D
Meerkat
11-01-2004, 11:08 PM
Peeps have no sterns! Kids could literally tumble right out of one! :eek:
My solution is to bait John Welsford for something similar, only about 16' and with a gaff/jib! smile.gif
PVanderwaart
11-02-2004, 09:36 AM
John Welsford has two boats that could be considered as alternates: Sweet Pea and Tread Lightly. Pick one depending on your preferred mix of accomodation and performance.
Jacques' new boat is quite interesting. Boats of this class are very popular, and it's a little surprising that he has taken so long to come up with a competitor to the Bolger Micro and the Stevenson Weekender. I'd say it looks like he's done his homework, but trying to make four people happy in a 15' cruiser is a losing proposition.
I use lifelines (with padding, as shown) as a backrest on my 22' sloop. It's fine, except for worrying about falling overboard IF the lifeline should fail. This worry caused my to renew my lifelines earlier than I might have otherwise; probably a good thing. It's not so good for children, though.
pippo
11-02-2004, 09:57 AM
I have the plans. Despite of the size it's a very well designed boat, with a lot of interesting features. It's not that heavy (about 260 kg light displacement), with a clever keel/centerboard arrangement. The ballast makes the boat self righting from a 135 degrees capsize. The cockpit is self draining, and quite ample indeed. The sail area can be significantly enhanced with a headsail on a retractable bowsprit.
In terms of volume and LWL, it's not that different from the famous Bolger's Micro, which is reportedly a great sailer (if not a beauty); Micro is also heavier and has more draft.
Finally, here is what Jacques says about the arrangements: "The open layout provides enough room to sleep 4 adults but it would be cramped. Two adults with frugal requirements will be comfortable during long cruises, maybe 2 adults and 2 small children for short cruises": fair enough, isn't it?
About the comparison against the Peep Hen: the Adelie 14 has the same main sail area and weighs 50 kg less.
[ 11-02-2004, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: pippo ]
Meerkat
11-02-2004, 08:07 PM
I realise it's a matter of comparing frogs and toads, but I think, in spite of the lack of a proper transom, that the Peep Hen is prettier (or less ugly if you prefer ;) ) than the Adelie.
http://www.shortypen.com/catalog/peep/peep.jpg
[ 11-02-2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
Cuyahoga Chuck
11-02-2004, 09:29 PM
Jacques Mertens, the AD 14 designer, has big time blue-water credentials. He has made two single-handed Atlantic crossings. He is also a Dutchman who can curse in both Flemish and French. If you care to take your case to his site he will certainly defend his plywood children with both rapier and dagger.
One thing you must realize is that Mertens designs like most S&G boats are based on a 4x8 plywood module. Certain consessions have to be made so that the scrap issue is kept to acceptible levels. BS 1088 scrap makes very expensive firewood.
Charlie
Cuyahoga Chuck
11-02-2004, 09:32 PM
Jacques Mertens, the AD 14 designer, has big time blue-water credentials. He has made two single-handed Atlantic crossings. He is also a Dutchman who can curse in both Flemish and French. If you care to take your case to his site he will certainly defend his plywood children with both rapier and dagger.
One thing you must realize is that Mertens designs like most S&G boats are based on a 4x8 plywood module. Certain consessions have to be made so that the scrap issue is kept to acceptible levels. BS 1088 scrap makes very expensive firewood.
Charlie
Sakari Aaltonen
11-03-2004, 12:56 AM
I do think the AD14 looks very similar to Dr. Segger's (German designer) Klenkes:
http://www.segger-boote.de/images/klenkes-z.jpg
Dr. Segger's Trailer Cruisers (http://www.segger-boote.de/trail-kreuzer.htm)
Sakari Aaltonen
[ 11-03-2004, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Sakari Aaltonen ]
pippo
11-03-2004, 05:36 AM
:eek:
Originally posted by Sakari Aaltonen:
I do think the AD14 looks very similar to Dr. Segger's (German designer) Klenkes:
http://www.segger-boote.de/images/klenkes-z.jpg
Jaques is indeed a character. I built my first boat from plans he did, the SH-14, he was always quick to provide answers to any question I had, and was always free with his opinion, whether you liked it or not. He would probaly fit in rather well over here.
Chad
Being in a storm in any of these boats is an intriguing thought. Sort of the way going over Niagara Falls in a barrel equipped with a sail is intriguing.
Boomkin Joe
11-03-2004, 03:50 PM
Have you ever faced a storm aboard your own boat, Jim?
Keith Wilson
11-03-2004, 04:01 PM
The similarity to the Klenkes is certainly striking.
http://www.boatplans-online.com/images/boatpics/AD14_pr.gif
http://www.boatplans-online.com/images/boatpics/AD14_pl.gif
[ 11-03-2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]
Originally posted by Boomkin Joe:
Have you ever faced a storm aboard your own boat, Jim?Nope! Although its a 15 footer with 300#s ballast and considerable freeboard and if I sealed her up a bit I'd probably fare almost as well, which is to say I hope it never happens. And it's not likely to happen in the puddles of water there are around here. Maybe I'll install seat belts for next season just in case. :D I rather like the Mertens and would consider building one if I didn't already have a small sailboat.
Boomkin Joe
11-03-2004, 05:20 PM
Jim,
Let's put it that way: Adelie has back seat safety belts.
A bit beamy to right her back after capsize, though.
Boomkin, do you sail a small boat in the rough stuff? Just curious as I never have. I can see where it would be a blast to have a go at it in one of these types of boats. I really like the concept of a small boat that's virtually impossible to sink or keep upside down for long.
Meerkat
11-08-2004, 02:39 PM
Another mini-cruiser is Selway-Fisher's "Tideway 14":
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Tideway14d1.gif
The Tideway 14 is a modern stitch and tape version of the old heavy displacement pocket cruisers that were popular in the 30’s and 40’s. By using modern construction techniques (using pre shaped ply hull panels, frames and transom) we have brought back to life a type of boat that offers good long distance cruising in a small package. She has 2 full length berths and plenty of stowage space and indeed, could be fitted out with a smaller cabin and larger cockpit to suit your needs. The standard arrangement shows a long ply box keel filled with concrete and scrap iron but she may also be fitted with bilge keels (also shown) or a centreboard. She may also be fitted with internal water ballast making her lighter to trail. All fittings have been kept to a minimum to keep costs low. NOTE - Details are now shown on the Tideway drawings for round bilged strip plank construction and a junk rig. LOD 14’6"
Beam 6’1"
Draft 2’1"
Weight with 700lbs. of ballast 1900 lbs.
Study plans are $10.00; Plans are $123.00
[ 11-08-2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
I take a look at Selway Fischer's website from time to time and have always had an eye on Tideway, as a sort of fall back in case it turns out I am never in the position to build a quite big heavy boat I could at least build a very small heavy boat.
Venchka
11-08-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
...I am never in the position to build a quite big heavy boat I could at least build a very small heavy boat.I don't think a very small heavy boat would be very interesting or satisfying on the water.
Maybe an in betweener. Yep, something bigger than small. Lighter than heavy. All of which makes very little sense. I'm in one of those moods today. Definitely not very small and heavy.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Wayne, for me interesting and satisfying is never having to say mayday :D
Meerkat
11-08-2004, 10:21 PM
How about a Tideway 16 with bilgekeels or bilgeboards with the pivot below the sole (external)? Would take the ground upright and able to gunkhole nicely... ?
Meerkat, I didn't know there was a Tideway 16.
Meerkat
11-09-2004, 12:08 PM
There isn't - yet. I was hoping to stir up interest so as to encourage Paul Fisher to do the work without too much $ input. I figure if I/we can drum up 3-4 immediate sales, he might be willing to do it for almost nothing (less than $100 over plans cost - $35 each additional or about $160).
My idea is this:
*Bow - sunken well for acchor gear and safety while on the fordeck. Area under to be sealed off and possibly filled with foam as it will be otherwise virtually unaccessable.
*Transverse bulkhead with galley and cabin heater. Galley area designed to take a 2 burner drop in propane stove, either the stovetop only model or the stovetop with grill model. Makes for a very generous galley and etc. for a small boat. The mast/mast support comes down through this area to divide it into galley and chart table and/or cabin heater areas. A table with wings can pivot down.
*Two settee berths, at least 4' of which is in the cabin and not buried under the cockpit seats. One can pull up floor boards and have a 6'-ish x 4'-ish transverse berth for 2 when anchored (which is the only time that such a thing makes sense!). Berths would be overlong so that one could nestle down into them and only have 2' of one's head and shoulders in the main cabin for security while sleeping at sea (if necessary - this is firmly intended as a coastal crusing gunkholer!)
*Pot in a locker under the companionway with venting to a solar vent on the stern to pull air from the cabin through the locker and thence overboard. One should be able to sit on the pot without the companionway hatch slid open!
* The usual sort of "sit-in-not-on" self-draining cockpit, an o/b well and, if possible either a full width lazarette or quarter lockers for storage.
* sloop or cutter (prefered) rig, gunter main. mainsheet on a stern mounted traveller (horse). Make it possible to have a bimini up whilst sailing (and if the aft end of the bimini is a permanent boom gallows, so much the better!)
* bilge keels or "L" shaped bilge boards with the pivot below the sole and the "L" trunk aft of the accomomdation (in the bridge deck to either side of the pot). The goal is shoal draft and ability to sit level while aground, at the same time looking for decent windward performance.
It's meant as a comfortable 3-4 season place for 1 or 2 people max for periods up to a week or so. A nice sailor with decent performance, but little sacreficed to performance extremes.
Should look a lot like the Tideway 14! smile.gif
Make it a Tideway 18 and I could be seriously interested.
Meerkat
11-09-2004, 06:59 PM
Why 18?
16 is too small. Not enough comfort inside.
Meerkat
11-09-2004, 08:30 PM
Uh - how do you know that? What are you looking for?
Of the Selway Fischer pocket boats I like Evening Swan quite a lot. That might be the one, but obviously at 17'6" not exactly a mini cruiser. It also is designed with a box keel for considerable ballast, actually about the same as Tideway 14, and a cutter rig. I have a 15 footer with cabin now, and although I envisioned cosy weekend camping/sailing I soon found that a cabin the size of a pup tent is good for tossing the gear in and not much else. Whatever small cruiser I eventually end up with will have as minimum some honest sitting headroom and galley space so that two people can have enough elbow room to cook, stretch out, play cards in the evening, etc. I don't think you can do that with 16 feet.
Meerkat
11-10-2004, 02:03 AM
You're forgetting volume methinks...
http://members.aol.com/monpoulet/phpercol.gif
This is a cartoon of the interior of the 14' "Peep Hen" mentioned earlier in this thread. Here's the blurb that goes with it:
The PEEP HEN is never going to be accused of being pretty. Her lines are the result of packing a lot of full sized features into a micro sized vessel. In spite of her small size, the PEEP HEN is, in fact, a true cruising boat.
Lets start down below: the cabin has more than 4' of headroom so you can sit, relax and lean back without hitting your head (something really unusual in a small boat). Any cruising boat needs a place to sleep. The Peep Hen has two good quarter berths (one of which is over 6'6" with 2' of knee clearance.)
A cruiser (or even a daysailer that's used for more than an hour or so) needs some sort of plumbing facilities and the place to use it. The Peep Hen has room in the cabin to use a Porta Potti, cedar bucket or what have you (in complete privacy from the cockpit and without disturbing either berth occupant), and room to stow it under the cockpit floor out of sight, out of the way.
The Peep Hen comes complete with a galley counter big enough to handle a camp stove with room left over for food preparation, a 25 quart ice box, dry storage space for groceries and cooking utensils, and even the kitchen sink. In the forepeak is room to stash a couple of duffels during the day, and sleeping gear can be kept at the foot of the bunks. In other words, everything has its place aboard a Peep Hen, and even in full cruising trim, the interior need not look like an overfilled gunny sack bursting at the seams.
Now for the exterior of the Peep Hen; the place where most sailors are likely to spend the majority of their time while sailing (or cruising). The cockpit seats are designed to fit full sized adults (it is a common myth that most small boat sailors are small people) so they will be comfortable for a full day's sail or an afternoon's lounging at anchor. The self-bailing foot well is low enough to provide good leg room. the seats are wide enough to sun bathe on (the starboard one is 6'6" long) and the coamings are high enough to give good back support. A cutout below the starboard seat has room for a cooler(within easy reach of the helms person) and a gas can. To port, a notch in the transom lets you use a short shaft motor, real easy to get at.
Foreward, we have recessed the deck. This gives you a secure place to handle lines, a good spot to stow the anchor, and a special place for kids to ride (a couple of corks in the scuppers and several buckets of sea water convert the well to a hot tub).
Finally, any cruiser needs a manageable rig, especially if she is to be single handed. This is an area where the Peep Hen shines. Her single gaff sail is quickly raised, lowered or reefed without going on deck; one simply stands in the companionway to handle the halyards and jiffy reefing lines. Her free standing mast is mounted in a tabernacle (mast hinge) making raising or lowering a breeze (even in the water) for even the clumsiest of us sailors. (My 10 year old son can do it unaided). When lowered, the boom and the mast rest on the boom gallows, the sail still furled on the boom. The Peep Hen can be launched, rigged, sail raised, ready to cast oft in under 10 minutes, single handed. http://www.shortypen.com/catalog/peep/ext/stern5.jpg
Virtually the only things I don't like about this boat is the single-sail rig and the lack of of a full height transom. I can't say she's pretty, but she should be a comfy little floating cabin that sails well enough to be fun! In my vision, she's a gunter sloop.
Compare the Peep's stats to those of your Minuet:
LOA: 14'2"
LWL: 13.3"
Beam: 6'4"
Draft Up: 9"
Draft Down: 3' 0"
Total Weight: 650 lbs
Ballast: 200 lbs
Sail Area: 115 sqft
The only thing this boat won't do is accomodate more than 2 people full time. Maybe 3-4 on a daysail, but unless you redefine marriage ( ;) ) you're not going to accomodate 4 overnight!
Lot of pics of Peep exterior and interior at http://www.shortypen.com/catalog/peep/
The point is not to reproduce the Peep, it's to do something similar with even better accomodations along the same lines and made of wood (the Peep fiberglass interior pics are not pretty, but they do show the room available!).
I'd rather have a stout little boat than suffer from feature/ego/size creap. Besides, at 18', you're into Golant Gaffer territory and that's got a very sweet interior indeed! (Someone PLEASE tell me how much the labor savings are for doing s&g, clinker ply or stringer lap compared to strip planking!!!!!!)
Meerkat
11-10-2004, 02:16 AM
It was the smaller Swan (Grey Swan?) that first turned me on to Selway-Fisher in the first place. Alas, the lines drawing I first saw did not come across well in actual pictures.
My other issue with the Swan is that it's got side decks. In a boat this small, it virtually eliminates the likelihood that one can sit comfortably below. Also, the galley is miniscule as seen in this pic:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/ESwan17p2.jpg
Notice how much of the seat is under the side deck! You may be able to sleep on those seats, but you're not going to do a lot of indolent lolling about! One of the attractions of the Tideway 14 and of the Peep Hen is that they're both flush deckers, so there's a lot more interior volume and headroom is all the way out to the hull.
Keith Wilson
11-10-2004, 09:46 AM
In the Peep Hen genre, the champion is of course Phil Boger's inimitable Micro, a wonderful mini-cruiser from every point of view except aesthetics, and it's even cute in a perverse sort of way. Well, I wouldn't brag about its windward performace either, but it's still a good boat, easy to build, and even cabable of some fairly serious cruising.
http://www.jersey.net/~tetherin/microlin.gif
PVanderwaart
11-10-2004, 10:09 AM
If you are going to start a catalog of the very small cruisers, you have to include John Welsford's Tread Lightly. It's a much bigger boat than is conveyed to my from the drawings.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jw/treadlightly/index.htm
The first boat is "in the finishing shed". Pictures are posted in the photos section here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jwbuilders/
(You probably have to join the group to view them. Yahoo's rules.)
Actually, I'm a little obsessed with interior volume. I agree the flush deck is a very good idea, virturally mandatory for a mini cruiser. Perhaps its just me but in a 14-16 footer it wouldn't take long to feel buried alive in the cabin no matter what design pains were taken to maximize space.
John Bell
11-10-2004, 10:36 AM
I can say from experience that the interior of a Micro is positively huge compared to any other 15'er extant.
Keith Wilson
11-10-2004, 10:45 AM
Here's John Welsford's Tread Lightly:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jw/treadlightly/tl.gif
Meerkat
11-14-2004, 12:15 AM
Another Mini-Cruiser: one that went further than most!:
http://www.benford.us/images/14-happy-bow-quarter-large.jpg
http://www.benford.us/images/14happy-large.gif
Benford Happy (14') (http://www.benford.us/pcty/14happy.html)
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" align="left" style="margin-top: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">
<tr><th colspan="2">Particulars:</th><th>Imperial</th><th>Metric</th></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Length overall</td><td align="center">13'-10"</td><td align="center">4.22 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Length designed waterline</td><td align="center">13'-8"</td><td align="center">4.17 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Beam</td><td align="center">6'-3"</td><td align="center">1.91 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Draft</td><td align="center">3'-7"</td><td align="center">1.09 m</td></tr>
<tr><td rowspan="3" valign="top">Freeboard:</td><td>Forward</td><td align="center">3'-1"</td><td align="center">0.94 m</td></tr>
<tr><td>Raised deck</td><td align="center">3'-35/8"</td><td align="center">1.01 m</td></tr>
<tr><td>Aft</td><td align="center">2'-4½"</td><td align="center">0.72 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Displacement, cruising trim</td><td align="center">2,240 lbs.</td><td align="center">1,016 kg.</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Displacement-length ratio</td><td align="center">392</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Ballast</td><td align="center">750 lbs.</td><td align="center">340 kg.</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Ballast ratio</td><td align="center">33%</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Sail area, square feet</td><td align="center">180</td><td align="center">16.72 sq. m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Sail area-displacement ratio</td><td align="center">16.82</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Wetted Surface</td><td align="center">84.4 sq. ft.</td><td align="center">7.84 sq. m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Sail area/wetted surface ratio</td><td align="center">2.13</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Prismatic coefficient</td><td align="center">.55</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Pounds per inch immersion</td><td align="center">285</td><td align="center">50.9 kg./cm</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Entrance half-angle</td><td align="center">28°</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Headroom</td><td align="center">4'-10½"</td><td align="center">1.49 m</td></tr>
</table>
[ 11-14-2004, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
Happy - cool! My favourite so far.
Meerkat
11-14-2004, 03:36 PM
But it's only 14' more or less! Make up my mind! :confused:
I like Happy a lot too - too bad Benford charges so much for the plans IMO: $225.00. The other problem is that it's meant for cold moulded construction and I know someone who's done CM - he said never, EVER again!
so this is what you guys do up here,,,,how about a microcruiser that could fit a 20"x18' kayak on board?
Originally posted by LeeG:
so this is what you guys do up here,,,,how about a microcruiser that could fit a 20"x18' kayak on board?How about a folding kayak? :D
Meerkat, ya, cold mold gives me shivers just thinking about it. But 4'10" headroom in a 14 foot boat. Gotta like that.
Venchka
11-14-2004, 05:36 PM
Regarding Happy-why not just fill in the gaps between the two a-frames bow an stern?
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Originally posted by Venchka:
Regarding Happy-why not just fill in the gaps between the two a-frames bow an stern?
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Not a bad question.
Venchka
11-14-2004, 06:32 PM
Once in a great while I ask a good question. ;)
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Meerkat
11-14-2004, 07:34 PM
Presumably you mean make a longer boat by "filling in the gaps" to make a longer boat? The man who commissioned the design, Howard Wayne Smith, was looking for a boat to beat a previous "smallest" circumnavigation.
It wouldn't make sense to just deck those areas over since it would prevent water draining away and impose huge loads on the hull.
Originally posted by Meerkat:
The man who commissioned the design, Howard Wayne Smith, was looking for a boat to beat a previous "smallest" circumnavigation.That's what makes it a fascinating but a little impractical design. If the point of it is to chase after a record its an excellent design, but if what you need is a very small boat because its what you have room for then you end up trailering and parking and mooring a boat that is 18 feet outside but 14 feet inside.
Venchka
11-14-2004, 09:16 PM
There you go. If the "record" was based only on length on deck, then HAPPY would be a "rule beater". No worries. Much ado about nothing. Obviously, a very capable small boat. No doubt she benefits from the extra sail area.
My question about filling in the gaps was aimed at a hull designed to fit the sailplan without the extra spars poking out of each end. As JimD pointed out, this boat takes up as much space as an 18' to 20' boat. Why not have the hull and more importantly the waterline length of the larger boat?
I'm surprised we haven't seen mention of McNaughton's Penny Farthing. I think that's the model. A dory with extreme overhangs, sheer and rocker with a fin keel strapped on. A really tiny cabin for it's length. Sort of the opposite of HAPPY. Long on deck but short on the waterline, beam and cabin.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Meerkat
11-15-2004, 11:50 AM
Point well made - and taken! - WRT an all inboard rig vs. one using overhangs. Some overhangs are necessary/useful, as is IMO the pushpit (for backstay anchor and windvane platform). Were I to build a boat that had a bowsprit (and I prefer the look of a boat with a bowsprit generally), I wouldn't do the "a-frame" that "Happy" has - I would opt for a single retractable ("reefable") spar.
Any more thoughts on the ideal mini-cruiser? 18-20' isn't outside the definition IMO.
Meerkat
11-15-2004, 01:53 PM
Another mini-cruiser that I quite like. Alas, I have almost no information about it and only these two pictures to show. The boat is 17'6" LOA.
http://www.oz.net/~whisper/images/SwirleyWorld.bmp
http://www.oz.net/~whisper/images/SwirleyWorld-companionway.bmp
Swirly World (Andrew Fagan)
There's a book: "Swirly World: The Solo Voyages" by Andrew Fagan, that came out in 2002. I wish I could afford a copy!
[ 11-15-2004, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
Have you checked out the smallcraftadvisor website? Some nice links. Especially liked the 15 foot sharpie that has made half a dozen trips to the carribean.
Someone PLEASE tell me how much the labor savings are for doing s&g, clinker ply or stringer lap compared to strip planking!!!!!!) If you're after the opinion of someone whose done all three I can't help, but I can say that I will never build strip plank. Ugly labour. Epoxy up the yin yang. Fairing, fairing, fairing. Stitch and glue I have done and batten ply lap I have started but the project is stalled. So if you are happy with the chined look of two or three panels per side, and I for one definitely am and will probably never build any other way then go for stitch and glue, or panel over frame, which will amount to almost the same thing anyway.
Venchka
11-15-2004, 06:04 PM
To continue on JimD's thoughts...by someone who knows nothing...and as Norm would say...It depends.
We are discussing boats that might travel far from shore. Or at a minimum, long distances close to shore. In places where you can't always run and hide if the weather pipes up. For those reasons, I (as maybe a minority of one) wouldn't chose a stitch and goo design UNLESS I knew for a fact that the design had a proven cruising history in big water and big wind. And I still might not choose it. For boats of the size we're talking about here, I would favor glued lap plywood a la Iain Oughtred's boatbuilding book. If I were going far from shore, I might even go to the extreme of backing the laps with stringers a la John Welsford and Arch Davis. Given the right design, I might even opt for strip plank. Heck, I may say, "I'll never do that again." I won't have to. I'll have a nice wee boat for cruising. :D
I didn't answer your question. I ran my mouth. Sorry. I don't think that cost and ease of construction should outweigh strength and seaworthiness. My opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Cuyahoga Chuck
11-15-2004, 06:49 PM
Vencka,
When Mertens designs hulls that have to endure high stresses he usually wraps the exterior,and sometimes the interior, with suitable weights of biax 'glass.
I think you'd agree,that approach on glued lap is impracticle.
Charlie
Small stitch and glue boats can and have crossed oceans.
Venchka
11-15-2004, 06:56 PM
Ok. I said I might be a minority of one.
I do stick to my opinion that I would choose a design for it's overall total merits. Not because I wanted the cheapest easiest to build boat I could find.
On second thought, I'm not building a boat. I have all the boat I can use at one time.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 11-15-2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Any more thoughts on the ideal mini-cruiser? 18-20' isn't outside the definition IMO. Near plumb stem and stern, no bowsprit or boomkin, sloop rig, maybe cutter small self-draining cockpit, flush deck maybe, but in any case not too high a cabin, plenty of ballast, self righting in case of capsize which would place some restriction on beam, perhaps about 8 feet, and ideally carry ballast well below the waterline, steel centerboard or daggerboard with bulb ok provided they could be locked in the down position in rough weather. Plywood multichine construction for relatively easy building, battens to back the chines because stitch and glue alone can be suseptable to failure from the inside out, although not likely from outside forces pushing in (meaning waves). Something like that.
Meerkat
11-16-2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
Have you checked out the smallcraftadvisor website? Some nice links. Especially liked the 15 foot sharpie that has made half a dozen trips to the carribean.That sounds like Dave and Mindy Bolduc and their "Little Cruiser" sharpie, designed by Matt Layden. Check out their site: http://www.microcruising.com/
[ 11-16-2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
Meerkat
11-16-2004, 12:22 PM
stitch and glue alone can be suseptable to failure from the inside out :eek: I've never ever heard of this!?!?!???
Venchka
11-16-2004, 01:22 PM
SWAGGIE by John Welsford. Meerkat, your slipping.
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/swaggie/sw-profile-600.gif http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/swaggie/SW-interior-600.gif
SWAGGIE
by John Welsford
LOA 5.5 m - 18 ft 2 in
Beam 2.4 m - 7 ft 10 in
Draft .8 m - 2 ft 8 in
Sail Area 22.5 sq m - 247 sq ft
Headroom 1.7 m - 5 ft 6 in
Headroom under dome 2 m - 6 ft 6 in
Displacement 1200 kg - 2650 lbs bare ship, rigged
Displacement 1750 kg - 3850 lbs normal full load
Displacement 1900 kg - 4180 lbs maximum safe That's a lot of little boat, Paw-Paw!
SWAGGIE (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/swaggie/index.htm)
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Yes, Lil Cruiser was what I was thinking of. And the Welsford boat looks eminently practical although I think I'd chop that 5'6" house down six inches or so. 5'6" still means stooping for anyone over 5'5" and if I'm going to have to crouch a bit I'd rather crouch a bit more and have a little less boat sticking up in the air. I've also heard wonderful things about fully battened 'junk' sails but have never liked the look of them. As for the potential weakness of stitch and glue from the inside out I looked around for the professional source where I read it, I think it was at Devlin's website, but couldn't find it. But it makes sense, its the convex/concave thing just as the curve of a car windshield or water damn or whatever makes them weaker from one side than the other.
Oops, correction. Swaggie is 6'6" under the dome! And 5'6" forward! That's incredible! I'm only 5'8. I bet I could get rid of the dome or most of it, add a few inches to the cabin, and stand up inside the whole darn boat! I think I'm in love! Maybe not with John personally, but definitely with Swaggie :D
Meerkat
11-16-2004, 02:25 PM
John says that by sometime in 2006 there will be a 22' Swaggie with standing headroom and an enclosed head. It could happen faster if he gets the right in$entive ;)
I'm not fond of junk rigs and I don't like the cooker overlapping a berth, as shown in the Swaggie plans. I think I'd like just a wee bit more cockpit too.
A 22 foot Swaggie would sure make me forget about Glen-L's Amigo in a hurry. And at 22 feet I hope there are a couple sail plan options. At that size I don't see why you couldn't sloop rig it with 'real' sails. :D . 2006 would be just about right. No way I'll make a decision on another sailboat until at least then.
Meerkat
11-16-2004, 06:28 PM
Of course, there's THIS mini-cruiser... smile.gif
http://www.tiki30.com/P5162365.JPG
http://www.tiki30.com/P5162366.JPG
Golant Gaffer
LOD: 18'9" 5.8m
Beam: 7' 2.13m
Draft: 2'9" 0.83m
Sail Area: 265 sq. ft. 24.61 sq. m
Weight: 3,300lb. 1500kg
Sensible layout with a private head. Definitely 1 for 2 smile.gif
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/golant.jpg
Venchka
11-16-2004, 07:02 PM
We've strayed from the original design for a 14'er. What are we up to now? 18'-20'? Frankly, there are just too many nice boats out there. 3 from Oughtred haven't even been mentioned yet.
So many boats. So little time.
Oh, Mrs. Wayne just told me that a friend of ours in Texas is going to open a sawmill. I may have to build a boat yet.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
john welsford
11-16-2004, 09:14 PM
I was talking to Andrew Fagan a few months ago, still lives in London ( the UK one) , still in the music business, still keeps Swirly World on her mooring in Little Shoal Bay where I can see the tiny green hull every time I cross Aucklands harbour bridge going north. He agrees that its a long way to come for a sail, but recons that its worth it when he gets here.
John W
Originally posted by Meerkat:
Another mini-cruiser that I quite like. Alas, I have almost no information about it and only these two pictures to show. The boat is 17'6" LOA.
http://www.oz.net/~whisper/images/SwirleyWorld.bmp
http://www.oz.net/~whisper/images/SwirleyWorld-companionway.bmp
Swirly World (Andrew Fagan)
There's a book: "Swirly World: The Solo Voyages" by Andrew Fagan, that came out in 2002. I wish I could afford a copy!
john welsford
11-16-2004, 09:19 PM
That high "doghouse" is mostly to provide visibility of both surrounding sea and the rig so she can be sailed from inside, those windows are 8mm High strength polycarbonate and with the fastening system used are likely to be stronger than the rest of the boat ( nothing like overkill) .
A bigger boat with conventional rig and cockpit would of course not need such visibility from inside, when designing extreme boats, they are likely to look, yup! Extreme.
JohnW
Originally posted by JimD:
Yes, Lil Cruiser was what I was thinking of. And the Welsford boat looks eminently practical although I think I'd chop that 5'6" house down six inches or so. 5'6" still means stooping for anyone over 5'5" and if I'm going to have to crouch a bit I'd rather crouch a bit more and have a little less boat sticking up in the air. I've also heard wonderful things about fully battened 'junk' sails but have never liked the look of them. As for the potential weakness of stitch and glue from the inside out I looked around for the professional source where I read it, I think it was at Devlin's website, but couldn't find it. But it makes sense, its the convex/concave thing just as the curve of a car windshield or water damn or whatever makes them weaker from one side than the other.
john welsford
11-16-2004, 09:41 PM
I THOUGHT my ears were burning! Must say its nice to be mentioned in the same thread as the likes of Iain Oughtred and Jaques M G
JohnW
Copied _____
"I'd rather have a stout little boat than suffer from feature/ego/size creap. Besides, at 18', you're into Golant Gaffer territory and that's got a very sweet interior indeed! (Someone PLEASE tell me how much the labor savings are for doing s&g, clinker ply or stringer lap compared to strip planking!!!!!!) "
I've built in pretty much most construction systems that wood can do. And have to say that any answer to the above has to start with "depends"
I've stripped a canoe, no problem apart from being a bit slow, I've stripped a fat catboat and that was a stinker and took forever. I ve 5 skin cold moulded a 55 footer ( ok I was one of three on the job ) and it went remarkably quickly in spite of the really odd bustle around the rudder ( mid 70s heavy displacement IOR boat) , and have helped on a cold moulded Skandinavian Metre boat which was the worst job I have ever worked on.
I use ply planks over stringers because my customer base is mostly unskilled first timers and its pretty easy to do a nice job of it with this method, some of my bigger boats use two skin ply over stringers and web frames, some are cold moulded, some are stripped ( not my favourite) and glassed over using Western Red Cedar as a structural core for high strength composite overlays, I am working on a 40 ft stitch and tape trimaran, and have no real preferences.
If I were to be building for myself in a larger size, I'd probably do it in two skin cold moulded over stringers and frames, there are literally thousands of amateur built boats of that type here in NZ, they are surviving the years well, were cheap and quick to build, are very tolerant of indifferent lumber quality, dont need epoxy glues, can be done one small job at a time with simple tools, and dont need serious skills once the stringers are fair.
You can even get the outer layer CCA treated with really does a good job of giving Marine borer toothache. ( yes it does glue ok) .
But each method seems to suit particular shapes better than another, and each method has its advocates. Me? Anything that gets me afloat is fine,
John Welsford. Who is currently cursing lapstrake as he sands off the Huffboat for a paint job.
Meerkat
11-16-2004, 10:19 PM
I also got an email from John wherein he reminded me that he's also got a larger 16' "Tread Lightly" type design coming along (to be called "Barefoot") and he'll also be doing a larger 19' Pathfinder-with-a-lid (cabin) design. This latter design will be somewhat of a flush decked design in the same ballpark as the Golant Gaffer, "Swirly World" and, especially, a Cornish Crabber, but "less claustrophobic" (apparently John got a bit claustrophobic while wriggling through a Cornish Crabber on his recent trip to the US, UK, Asia and Australia and he reckons he can make it more open somehow - the busy life of an international boat designer and plans flogger ;) ). Sounds like it could be a very interesting evolution of the Navigator-Pathfinder family of Welsford designs! smile.gif
I think a mini-cruiser is any boat under 22' designed primarily for cruising and not for breaking some record. 22' - to me - is a pretty definite mini-cruiser and a 24' boat is pretty definitely not.
No offense to anyone, but I think of Swaggie as more of a voyaging boat than a cruising boat: to me, the difference is whether or not one can comfortably live aboard between passages and I have my doubts about Swaggie in that regard. The smallest cruisers I know of are the 20' "Flicka, the 22' Glen-L "Amigo" and the Sam L. Morse "Falmouth 22" (this last one almost luxurious! and would be totally perfect if it had a shower!). I wonder if somewhere in the 20-22' range is the least size one can generally live on. (Yes, I know that 2 people and a german shepard lived for a year on a 14' Bolger micro, that individuals have set up housekeeping in a 15' West Wight Potter and etc, etc, etc, but I think those are exceptions!)
[ 11-16-2004, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
Meerkat, I urge you to use your charm with John to design us something in the neighbourhood of a Falmouth 22 or Amigo that can be built in multichine plywood with 3 or 4 panels per side. Stitch and glue, panel on frame, battens or no battens - the difference in effort and skill for the builder is really negligible although battens at the chines has always seemed like a good idea to me. I think Selway Fisher's largest of the Swan series is multichine plywood, 22 ft long, 6 feet headroom so it can be done but I frankly don't like the look of it. This would be a true voyaging boat with plenty of creature comfort and easy for the amateur to build. Any thoughts?
Meerkat
11-16-2004, 11:30 PM
Message forwarded. We'll see if "Dear sweetheart..." charms him in the slightest ;)
I'll encourage him to come around here again sooner or later to make more comments.
I believe that the "Swaggie 22" is going to be what you describe, more or less. The client has specified an enclosed head/shower compartment as I recall, as well as standing headroom.
The following is far too large, but I like the profile. This is Selway-Fisher's "Martlet 30". Imagine a boat of ~22' with a profile similar to this...
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Martletd1.gif
There was a write up about this design in "Watercraft" magazine in the past year or so. Much better sketches than this one.
Venchka
11-17-2004, 08:28 AM
And now, for something completely different...from the marine backpacking end of the spectrum.
BLUESTONE by Gavin Atkin. I wonder if he's related to the other Atkins of small boat fame?
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/designs/atkin/bluestone/Bluestone_Sailplan_toffee.gif
BLUESTONE PLANS (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/designs/atkin/bluestone/)
Did I mention that the plans are priced to suit everyone's budget? FREE! :D
PS: My bad! Too early for typing I guess. mmd and all you Nova Scotians, forgive me?
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 11-17-2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Getting plenty of headroom in a short boat seems to require a wineglass hull or at least a very deep v with the cabin sole quite narrow and low in the v which ends up well below the waterline providing a hull maybe 4 1/2 feet from sole to sheer. Then add the cabin perhaps with considerable camber to the roof to squeek out every possible inch of height. Round bottoms or moderate V's obviously just don't have the depth in the hull. Perhaps I'll indulge myself with mocking up a carboard multichine a couple feet long to see how it might be done in plywood. (I'll send John the patterns :D )
For ballast I'd be more than happy with the box type, filled mainly with scrap iron and poured in place with concrete if it were possible to make the box big enough to hold a tonne or so of scrap. Scrap iron is almost free for the taking from an iron works factory. They have piles of it laying around. I got 200#s for the Minuet for about $8.
Keith Wilson
11-17-2004, 10:28 AM
It's Bluestone, not Bluenose. Nice looking boat! I'm not sure about the boomless foresail (mainsail?) but it's a lovely hull.
swingking
11-17-2004, 02:08 PM
Benford's HAPPY 14' plans are published in
the book "Pocket Cruisers & Tabloid Yachts,
Volume 1" that sells for $16.
A number of people have built Matt Layden's
PARADOX 14'. (plans $40)
http://www.microcruising.com/Sketch1.htm
PARADOX won the grueling 2003 WaterTribe
Challenge.
Phil Bolger's 16' STORM PETREL
The plans are in Bolger's book "Different Boats"
A copy is here:
http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/Files/petrel.pdf
shallow draft keel:
http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm
Venchka
11-17-2004, 03:35 PM
For the record: a solid chunck of mild steel, 12"x6"x6'-0" weighs 1,472 pounds. For the metric inclined, get a calculator. :D
John W.: Thanks for the synopsis of building methods. Assuming one of your forthcoming designs strikes my fancy, you may convert me yet. smile.gif
Seriously, John, cold molding isn't too bad if the hull shape is agreeable to the method? How much extra time is spent to make the mold? It always seemed to me that the mold for cold molding was practically a stip planked hull. Perhaps my misconceptions are showing. The part about not fussy about wood is encouraging. What with quality plywood prices going up all the time, and IF I build I should have access to local pine and local sawmills. I might be able to "import" western red cedar and have it cut into veneer at a local sawmill.
Too many boats. Too many questions. Too little time.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
For the record: a solid chunck of mild steel, 12"x6"x6'-0" weighs 1,472 pounds. For the metric inclined, get a calculator. :D A couple chunks like that oughta keep the mini-cruiser from tipping over. And for those of us who do not want to mess around with bathtubs full of molten lead in our back yards it would be nice to be able to ballast a boat that way.
Venchka
11-17-2004, 05:12 PM
Yep, and it would be good if I could spell. Flat bar 6"x1" bolted together would come close to a solid CHUNK. Lead tire weights, smashed together, could fill in any gaps and add some density.
The hard bits are beginning to seem easier.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Hess's Falmouth 22, arguably the most capable ocean sailer at that size, has inside ballast although it is lead. It is precast and sits in a cavity in the bottom of the boat. Due to the shape of the hull the ballast forms the keel under the boat so the lead is positioned just where it would be if it were bolted on from outside.
bainbridgeisland
11-17-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
Hess's Falmouth 22, arguably the most capable ocean sailer at that size...I think you guys are mistaken only using length to determine size. Short length is only important when paying for mooring or building in a restricted area. Short heavy boats benifit in both speed and comfort if they are the same weight but longer.
Don't you think 'small cruiser', 'pocket yacht' or 'mini cruisers' are better defined by volume than length? I certainly do.
Don't you think 'small cruiser', 'pocket yacht' or 'mini cruisers' are better defined by volume than length? I certainly do. Absolutely, but in the context of this thread there is already an understanding that we are talking about a big boat is a short package, meaning volume.
Venchka
11-17-2004, 10:22 PM
Those in the know, help me understand something.
As just mentioned above, volume makes small boats more liveable. To my mind, volume is determined by beam and freeboard. Trailer laws peg maximum beam at 8'-6". Most of the bigger small boats I see have beams hovering around 8'-0". Quite beamy for boats in the 18'-0" to 20'-0" range. There is a question coming. I also know that several of the extreme ocean racers are so wide that once inverted they stay that way in the same manner as multihulls. Here it comes...
Is a boat of say 18'-0"x8'-0" and ballast ratio in the 25%-30% range in danger of remaining inverted if it turns 180 degrees? How much coach roof volume (is that a nautical term?) would be needed to offset a beamy short hull? I've read what Bruce Kirby and Karl Stambaugh say about above deck buoyancy in terms of positive stability. Kirby uses the cabin to make his sharpies right themselves from 120 degrees or more. I'm rambling. Ya'll know what I am trying to say. How much cabin is enough for postive righting? I've heard of self inflating headboards for the mainsail. Do they work? What if the sail is gaff headed? Can you get the same device for a gaff main?
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
bainbridgeisland
11-17-2004, 11:50 PM
Virtually every sailboat you know would stay inverted if placed upside down in calm conditions. So, yes, 18'x8' boats would too.
The range of heel where a boat self rights is called positive stability. Pretty much all boats have a range of both positive and negative stability. When a boat is inverted, in the negative stability zone, she depends on the waves to push her over past the threshold of positive stability so she can right herself.
The range of positive stability of most small overnight type cruising boats is about plus or minus 100 degrees when loaded with crew and gear. Many are less.
To put this into perspective, cruising catamarans often have a range of positive stability of around 80 degrees. Not as different as you would think.
Offshore cruising boats often have a range of positive stability of plus or minus 120 degrees when loaded.
Most yacht designers try to get at least plus or minus 140 degrees positive stability for offshore boats. This is enough to ensure righting in any conditions that are likely to capsize a boat.
Boats with narrow beam and 70% ballast sometimes have a range of stability of plus or minus 165 degrees.
All of this is for static conditions. In real life many other aspects are more important than the range of positive stability. For example, the mass moment of inertia is probably the most important parameter when considering capsize by the jetted crest of a wave. In other words, keep the rig in the boat; it will keep you from capsizing in waves.
Some folks have gotten their PhD on this subject, so don't expect all aspects to be simple and easy to follow. We are just brushing the surface here.
Wayne, you're asking all the right questions and I leave it to the designers to do the math and juggle all the variables to produce a hull that will right itself after capsize. JW mentions this about Swaggie "Her ballast is 450 kg of lead some 550 mm down below the waterline, and heeled to 90 deg she will lift something like 60 kg with her masthead which is a huge righting moment for a little boat."
Also, John Vigor has a book, The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat, that addresses these issues and what is required in a design for maximum survivablily, essentially all the things you just mentioned.
Gavin Atkin
11-18-2004, 11:12 AM
It's great to see that the Bluestone is remembered in some quarters at least! I'd still like a Bluestone some day; I think it would be a fascinating boat to use. And wouldn't it just turn some heads?
Sadly I don't have any evidence of a link between the illustrious Billy and John Atkin and myself.
Atkin's a rare name in most places but common in Lincolnshire on the East coast of England, which is where my family hails from. It's a good guess that the famous Atkins' family came from the same area, but I can't say more.
It's Flemish, I believe and a diminunitive that has the meaning 'Little Adam'.
Gavin
Venchka
11-18-2004, 11:31 AM
Don't get me wrong. I'm not planing to take an 18'x8' 2,000 pound boat to the Southern Ocean. However, I don't want to end up like the guy I saw on TV whose wide flat boat turned turtle and stayed that way. The waves were huge but the boat remained inverted for days. Come to think of it, he may have lost his high aspect ratio fin keel + bulb ballast. That explains a lot. Fortunately, the Australian navy rescued him before he died.
I'm also not opposed to running two or three PFD's on a halyard up to the masthead if things get scary. Or maybe add a styrofoam cylinder to the masthead if there is room. I'll pay the windage penalty in exchange for a huge righting moment. 20 pounds of buoyancy 20' above the deck provides 400 foot pounds of righting moment. I could live with that. ;) I think I'll also stick to designs that require the bottom to fall off the boat before the ballast is lost. ;)
ps: You don't have to go to the Southern Ocean to encounter dangerous conditions. 4th of July, 1970, a line of thunderstorms battered Lake Pontchartrain. A guy in a huge motor yacht tried to muscle his way back into the marina. He ended up on Lakeshore Drive behind the Coast Guard Station. That's about 6' higher than the normal lake level and 200' inland. The folks who headed into the middle of the lake were the smart ones.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
PVanderwaart
11-18-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by JimD:
Meerkat, I urge you to use your charm with John to design us something in the neighbourhood of a Falmouth 22 or Amigo that can be built in multichine plywood with 3 or 4 panels per side. That would be his Penguin design.
Venchka
11-18-2004, 11:37 AM
Welcome aboard, Gavin! It's good to have you even if most of us are in the Colonies!
Bluestone hasn't been built so far? Pity. Lovely boat.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 11-18-2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Originally posted by PVanderwaart:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
Meerkat, I urge you to use your charm with John to design us something in the neighbourhood of a Falmouth 22 or Amigo that can be built in multichine plywood with 3 or 4 panels per side. That would be his Penguin design.</font>[/QUOTE]Peguin won't do even if it was scaled up a bit. The hull shape won't provide enough headroom.
Gavin Atkin
11-18-2004, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the welcome Venchka. No, Bluestone hasn't been built as yet.
I'm quite happy to talk with people based in the colonies, as the mousefolks ~O:> will be only too happy to tell you...
Gavin
john welsford
11-22-2004, 01:34 AM
Of the two main methods of cold moulding a boat, one is to build a very detailed mould which is taken out of the hull when the skin is complete, then the stringerless hull can be filled up with bulkheads and furniture. That needs at least three skins and is pretty labour intensive but the clean inside is nice.
More common is two skins over stringers, the moulds are mostly permanent bulkheads which stay in . So you build much of the basis of your accommodation as frames and moulds, set them up and wrap permanent stringers around, then put two layers of say 1/4 in x 5 in veneer over that at 90 deg angles relative to each other, and glass that with 6oz boat cloth in epoxy.
This building system suits the shape of the typical medium displacement fin keeler very well and literally thousands have been built this way, many by first timers with very little experience. Labour wise it is about as quick as you are going to get, and apart from needing a good eye to get her fair, which is needed in any building method, its as well suited to amateur building as you will find for boats from 18 to 40 ft.John Guzzwells and Ian Nicholsons books on cold moulded boatbuilding are fairly good guides but both tend ( in my opinion) to get overly complicated in places.
JohnW
Originally posted by Venchka:
For the record: a solid chunck of mild steel, 12"x6"x6'-0" weighs 1,472 pounds. For the metric inclined, get a calculator. :D
John W.: Thanks for the synopsis of building methods. Assuming one of your forthcoming designs strikes my fancy, you may convert me yet. smile.gif
Seriously, John, cold molding isn't too bad if the hull shape is agreeable to the method? How much extra time is spent to make the mold? It always seemed to me that the mold for cold molding was practically a stip planked hull. Perhaps my misconceptions are showing. The part about not fussy about wood is encouraging. What with quality plywood prices going up all the time, and IF I build I should have access to local pine and local sawmills. I might be able to "import" western red cedar and have it cut into veneer at a local sawmill.
Too many boats. Too many questions. Too little time.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
... How much cabin is enough for postive righting? There is the opposite argument that a low cabin is better because it is less likely to be damaged by capsize. A tall cabin may provide positive righting if its watertight but not many hatches or companion way doors are. A tall cabin upside down and filling with water will work against you.
Marcio Moreira
11-24-2004, 09:33 AM
I Think Paul Gartside's 21 sloop is a good exemple of a classic pocket cruiser. There's no 6 feet headroom but with a long keel, small inbord and simple sail plan it's an affordable and salty litle boat.
Gatside #112 sloop (http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail2.php#wright)
Venchka
11-24-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
There is the opposite argument that a low cabin is better because it is less likely to be damaged by capsize. A tall cabin may provide positive righting if its watertight but not many hatches or companion way doors are. A tall cabin upside down and filling with water will work against you.You mean something like this, eh? :D
http://image09.webshots.com/9/3/75/78/152437578IuUiZn_ph.jpg
I'm sorry, but that's a disaster looking for a place to happen on any water bigger than a pond. In good weather. With no wind.
Marcio---
While I am huge fan of Paul Gartside's boats, and his 21' sloop is a real beauty, she's on the extreme end of the size spectrum for a mini-cruiser. No worries. Any good boat is always welcome!
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 11-24-2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Gartside 's #112 is a beauty and I really like the sail plan.
Wayne, what on earth is that thing? :D
Venchka
11-24-2004, 02:27 PM
Come on Jim, you don't recognize Mr. Bolger's work? Something called a Micro Navigator.
We all agree that Paul's #112 is a nice boat. Didn't this discussion start out with a 14' mini-cruiser? Boy, one-foot-itis has reared it's ugly head! :confused: :eek: :rolleyes: If we compound that with a case of double-ender-itis, where will we end up? :cool:
Back on track-the how much is enough for safety coach roof question. Paul Gartside's #110 "SPARTAN" cabin top falls somewhere between the Golant Gaffer's near flush deck and the Micro Navigator's greenhouse. Fortunately, Spartan's roof is a lot closer to the Golant Gaffer. I pondered and measured the plans the other night. Something I told myself not to do becasue I'm not building a boat. Anyway, there's a fair bit of buoyancy and headroom under the cabin top. No worries!
http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Spartan2-110.jpg
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Gartside 110# has too many strings too pull for my liking. How about the #110 hull with the 139 sailplan?
Venchka
11-24-2004, 05:09 PM
I begged Paul to transplant Elisabeth Grace's sailplan and spars to Spartan's hull. I have 2 suits of perfectly good sails and perfectly good spars. He didn't like the idea. I also begged for glued lapstrake planking. He didn't like that idea either. If I ever get really serious, I'll wave more money at him. :D
Maybe I'll give Iain Oughtred a jingle and see if we can't come up with a transom stern two berth hull and the Caledonia yawl sails and spars. Sort of a Drascomb Longboat only better concept. If I ever get really serious about building.
B. Burnside, are you paying attention? smile.gif
Wayne
On his way out of the Swamp. :D
Venchka
12-05-2004, 10:36 PM
Collective thoughts on this, the GFB 16-22? Also available from Selway-Fisher.
Or it's cousin the 16' Great Pelican?
http://www.by-the-sea.com/saltys/images/gfbsail_3.jpg
GFB-16 (http://www.by-the-sea.com/saltys/saltgfb_boatbuilderarticle.html)
GREAT PELICAN (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/9318/sail.html)
PELICAN PLANS (http://community-2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/index.html)
Wayne
In the Swmap. :D
[ 12-06-2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
A scow with a bowsprit. What the heck, why not :D
Venchka
12-06-2004, 08:27 AM
Thanks! You are a lot of help. As long as it's my $$$$$, time, effort, behind in the cockpit... go for it, HEY? :D Use a broken hockey stick for a flag pole?
Wayne
In the Swmap. :D
Gavin Atkin
12-06-2004, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Venchka:
Thanks! You are a lot of help. As long as it's my $$$$$, time, effort, behind in the cockpit... go for it, HEY? :D Use a broken hockey stick for a flag pole?
Wayne
In the Swmap. :D I haven't got much in the way of answers and I haven't sailed either boat. But I would ask how well the Great Pelican really works as a sailing boat: with it's fairly small rig, wide bottom and short length I'd think most people would expect it to perform more like motor-sailer than a real sailing boat.
The GHB, however, looks as if it promises better performance in return for a more complicated boat to build and sail. Is it so?
Gavin
Hockey stick for the tiller, broom handle for the flag pole :D
Venchka
12-06-2004, 02:27 PM
Funny. I heard it t'other way round from the East Coast of Canuckistan. :D
But seriously folks, I need to have my head examined. I own a good boat. Arguably better suited to my needs than most or all of the fine craft presented here. So what if I get wet once in awhile. Aren't you supposed to get wet occassionaly on a boat? :D
I'm glad we had this discussion. It made me see the light. :cool:
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Meerkat
12-06-2004, 04:03 PM
The GFB-16 is a Selway-Fisher design, offered in their catalog as the "Goshawk". It is not related by designer to the Pelican series. The Pelican was designed by a retired sea captain for use on San Francisco Bay. The bay is very very often a quite rambunctuous bit of water - like daily! That might explain the relative lack of sail area. I understand there's still an active fleet sailing on the bay.
Meerkat
12-06-2004, 04:08 PM
Great Pelican (16')
http://community-2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/scrapbookFiles/mailedD2.jpg
Venchka
12-06-2004, 04:11 PM
I knew that.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Bear's Oil
12-07-2004, 03:16 PM
The GFB and Pelican are roughly the same dimensions. The GFB-16 or Goshawk is multichine and carries a partial keel, in addition to a CB.
The Pelican is more of a dory kind of thing. Beam is eight feet, but the botton is relatively narrow and flat. Sort of like an Egret Sharpie with the pointy ends chopped off.
Both have a number of rig options, to include the Junk/Chinese Lug. GFB-16 plans are nothing to write home about, but serviceable.
Both can be built on-frame or stuck together with that smelly crap. Pelican requires beveling chine logs, if built "traditionally" while GFB requires some fairly fancy beveling of bottom panels or strakes...
Of the two, I would take Jim Michalak's "scram pram", about the same dims but cheaper and pleasantly different. Want an upgraded scow, look at Sam Devlin's "Lichen".
[ 12-07-2004, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Bear's Oil ]
Keith Wilson
12-07-2004, 03:47 PM
On the water for which they were designed, very few small boat designs are better than the San Francisco Pelicans. The maiden voyage of the first one, Chloe Maru, was from Sausalito to the Cityfront and back on an average summer afternoon - wind 25-35 knots, 4' short breaking chop, water 55 degrees F, plus some pretty nasty tide rips depending on the time, and for almost more fun than you can stand, you also get to dodge container ships! There aren't many 12' open centerboard boats in which I'd do that for any money. OTOH, on Long Island Sound in summer, they may not be quite the thing.
[ 12-07-2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]
Venchka
12-07-2004, 04:23 PM
Devlin's LICHEN is interesting. A MAXI among sub-20' cruising boats. A bit heavier than I might like. Interesting. I wasn't aware of this boat.
http://www.devlinboat.com/lichen.gif
http://www.devlinboat.com/lichen2.jpg
LICHEN (http://www.devlinboat.com/dclichen.htm)
Wayne
In The Swamp. :D
Why is it scows always remind me of the old joke about the guy whose dog was so ugly he shaved its transom and made it walk backwards?
Boomkin Joe
12-07-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
Why is it scows always remind me of the old joke about the guy whose dog was so ugly he shaved its transom and made it walk backwards?Hey, are you Jim D. the proctologist? Small world!
Hmmm, good point, Joe. Too bad the boat doesn't have one :D
Meerkat
12-07-2004, 09:25 PM
I've seen a few "Lichen" around Puget Sound. John Welsford and I saw one at Port Townsend when he was here. He was quite taken with the concept and seeing one may have inspired his "Tread Lightly" design. he's going to be coming out with a larger version to be called "Barefoot": about 16'.
Originally posted by Meerkat:
Another Mini-Cruiser: one that went further than most!:
http://www.benford.us/images/14-happy-bow-quarter-large.jpg
http://www.benford.us/images/14happy-large.gif
Benford Happy (14') (http://www.benford.us/pcty/14happy.html)
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" align="left" style="margin-top: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">
<tr><th colspan="2">Particulars:</th><th>Imperial</th><th>Metric</th></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Length overall</td><td align="center">13'-10"</td><td align="center">4.22 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Length designed waterline</td><td align="center">13'-8"</td><td align="center">4.17 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Beam</td><td align="center">6'-3"</td><td align="center">1.91 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Draft</td><td align="center">3'-7"</td><td align="center">1.09 m</td></tr>
<tr><td rowspan="3" valign="top">Freeboard:</td><td>Forward</td><td align="center">3'-1"</td><td align="center">0.94 m</td></tr>
<tr><td>Raised deck</td><td align="center">3'-35/8"</td><td align="center">1.01 m</td></tr>
<tr><td>Aft</td><td align="center">2'-4½"</td><td align="center">0.72 m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Displacement, cruising trim</td><td align="center">2,240 lbs.</td><td align="center">1,016 kg.</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Displacement-length ratio</td><td align="center">392</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Ballast</td><td align="center">750 lbs.</td><td align="center">340 kg.</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Ballast ratio</td><td align="center">33%</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Sail area, square feet</td><td align="center">180</td><td align="center">16.72 sq. m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Sail area-displacement ratio</td><td align="center">16.82</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Wetted Surface</td><td align="center">84.4 sq. ft.</td><td align="center">7.84 sq. m</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Sail area/wetted surface ratio</td><td align="center">2.13</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Prismatic coefficient</td><td align="center">.55</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Pounds per inch immersion</td><td align="center">285</td><td align="center">50.9 kg./cm</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Entrance half-angle</td><td align="center">28°</td><td align="center"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2">Headroom</td><td align="center">4'-10½"</td><td align="center">1.49 m</td></tr>
</table>
Happy reprise
Originally posted by Meerkat:
Another mini-cruiser is Selway-Fisher's "Tideway 14":
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Tideway14d1.gif
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Tideway 14 is a modern stitch and tape version of the old heavy displacement pocket cruisers that were popular in the 30’s and 40’s. By using modern construction techniques (using pre shaped ply hull panels, frames and transom) we have brought back to life a type of boat that offers good long distance cruising in a small package. She has 2 full length berths and plenty of stowage space and indeed, could be fitted out with a smaller cabin and larger cockpit to suit your needs. The standard arrangement shows a long ply box keel filled with concrete and scrap iron but she may also be fitted with bilge keels (also shown) or a centreboard. She may also be fitted with internal water ballast making her lighter to trail. All fittings have been kept to a minimum to keep costs low. NOTE - Details are now shown on the Tideway drawings for round bilged strip plank construction and a junk rig. LOD 14’6"
Beam 6’1"
Draft 2’1"
Weight with 700lbs. of ballast 1900 lbs.
Study plans are $10.00; Plans are $123.00</font>[/QUOTE]Last night I redrew Tideway as a cat yawl. Moved the mast about a foot or so forward and stuck a little mizzen on the end. No bowsprit, no jib. Now I'm fighting the urge to buy the plans :D
Venchka
06-23-2005, 03:18 PM
Go for it. I'll bet you a frosty cold Okanagan ale that a sail plan similar in size to Tread Lightly will drop right on Tideway. Might be a bit undercanvassed though. I wish Paul Fisher had listed the sail area. Get the study plans and let us know. If the sail area is anywhere near 150-160 sq. ft., I have just the sail plan for it. :cool:
...and a junk rig I know I have the sail plan for it.
Happy or Tideway 14. Kinda like a blue water Peep Hen. Hard to choose.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 06-23-2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Tideway as a cat yawl appeals to me more than Happy or Tideway with the original sail plan. Easier to build and no poles sticking out either or both ends. Yes, a blue water Peep Hen, sort of. A very mini cruiser but with lots of reassuring weight hanging off the bottom. If all goes well we could be living on Vancouver Island before the end of the year and I'll want something just a little more seaworthy that the Glen-L Minuet even tho they are about the same hull size. And the plans price is right. Only about $150 Canadian. I wonder if anyone has actually built one?
Edited to add: I doubt if the sailplan is quite 150-160. That sounds a bit high. 140, maybe? Tread Lightly's sail plan doesn't appeal to me. I'd go for gaff or gunter.
[ 06-23-2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]
Meerkat
06-23-2005, 03:49 PM
One or two people on the yahoo selway-fisher builder's forum have mentioned a couple years back that they were working on Tideways. I solicited info about 6 months back and there was no response, so who knows if any have been built or not. Paul Fisher might know, but I doubt he's gotten any pics, otherwise he likely would have posted them on his website.
I can't quite persuade myself that Tideway has comfortable sitting headroom, so if anyone gets the study plans and can suss it out, I'd like to know.
I'll order the study plans tonight. If there isn't enough headroom for comfortable sitting I'll make some :D
Meerkat
06-23-2005, 04:11 PM
Order 2 - they're small. Send one to me, please! ;) smile.gif
Meer, private message me with a mailing address.
Meerkat
06-23-2005, 04:24 PM
Dropped you an email - and, Thanks! smile.gif
Venchka
06-23-2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
...Last night I redrew Tideway as a cat yawl. Moved the mast about a foot or so forward and stuck a little mizzen on the end. No bowsprit, no jib. Now I'm fighting the urge to buy the plans :D Show me. Please?
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 06-23-2005, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Paul G
06-23-2005, 09:41 PM
Wayne
What do you think of Scout? 250 kg of ballast and very cute. Although someone said it had too much sheer.
Paul
Originally posted by Venchka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
...Last night I redrew Tideway as a cat yawl. Moved the mast about a foot or so forward and stuck a little mizzen on the end. No bowsprit, no jib. Now I'm fighting the urge to buy the plans :D Show me. Please?
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D </font>[/QUOTE]Wayne, when I get the study plans I'll draw up a couple versions nicely, and post them. Based on my very preliminary calcs I had to change the shape of the main quite a bit to get the CE forward enough as even a small mizzen moves it aft quite a bit.
Venchka
06-23-2005, 09:53 PM
Scout is interesting. As I said on the jwbuilders group, it's on the outer edge of my size range. If the cabin is anywhere near as spacious as Penguin, it could be a winner. A 2 berth proportionately smaller Penguin would be just about right. Maybe Scout will fit that description. The profile might take getting used to. I am trying desperatley not to judge boats from 50 feet on the trailer. I'm sure John has his reasons for the sheer. I'll talk to him about it after the plans are done. I am also waiting patiently for the 2 berth outgrowth of Tread Lightly, a.k.a. Barefoot. #3 on my list of JW designs not yet in progress, assuming Barefoot doesn't work for me, is a hull to use under my Caledonia yawl spars and sails. That might be a stretch.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Venchka
06-23-2005, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
Wayne, when I get the study plans I'll draw up a couple versions nicely, and post them. Based on my very preliminary calcs I had to change the shape of the main quite a bit to get the CE forward enough as even a small mizzen moves it aft quite a bit.Thanks! BIG OOPS! I'll get it right soon. 25% works. Mizzen 25% of the main. Combined COE 20% aft of main COE. YMMV. Others will have their ideas too. I wanted to get my lie in first. :D
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 06-24-2005, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
I'm still not quite sure what you mean by 20%. All I've done so far is draw up a main and mizzen that when combined keep the CE in the same place as the original sloop rig. But I know next to nothing of yawl rigs as I've never considered building or owning one before. Hopefully the study plans will also show the hull CLR. If for some reason a yawl rig would be impractical I could always just go for a single sail cat rig.
Venchka
06-24-2005, 09:34 AM
It was late. My usual shorthand.
Mizzen area = 25% of Main area.
Combined COE is on a line from Main COE to Mizzen COE and 20% of that line length aft of the Main COE.
[MIZ-CE]<-----80%----->[CCE]<--20%-->[MAI-CE]
Clear as mud? Do you know how to find the center of sails, both 3 and 4 sided?
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Clear as mud? Do you know how to find the center of sails, both 3 and 4 sided?
Yes, that part is easy, as is how to calc the combined CE of any number of sails, but only two sails makes for less arithmetic.
Edited to ask. I'll give your suggestion a try. I have also started a new thread on the topic to solicit other opinions. Not that I don't believe you, Wayne. Trust and verify, as they say :D
[ 06-24-2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]
Combined COE is on a line from Main COE to Mizzen COE and 20% of that line length aft of the Main COE.
So how much lead should the main alone provide? For argument's sake let's say the original total sail plan lead is 10%, which is probably about right for a relatively heavy, full keeled little boat.
Venchka
06-24-2005, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by JimD:
...I could always just go for a single sail cat rig.If a 14' cat boat lights your jets, you can buy a loaded Peep Hen with the canvas cabin/bimini, trailer, OB, ground tackle, etc., etc. for $3k-$5k.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Originally posted by Venchka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
...I could always just go for a single sail cat rig.If a 14' cat boat lights your jets, you can buy a loaded Peep Hen with the canvas cabin/bimini, trailer, OB, ground tackle, etc., etc. for $3k-$5k.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D </font>[/QUOTE]Don't want no Peep Hen, thanks anyway.
Venchka
06-24-2005, 10:36 AM
I knew that. At least we know what the incremental cost of personal choice is. :D
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Meerkat
06-24-2005, 05:16 PM
I hope the "Tideway's" sail area is near 180 sq. ft.! That's the square footage of "Happy" and the weight is about the same! Furthermore, "Happy" is a cutter and "Tideway" is a sloop.
Tideway doesn't look anything near 180 to me. We'll find out soon enough.
Meerkat
06-24-2005, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
Tideway doesn't look anything near 180 to me. We'll find out soon enough.Between the two of us, we'll probably drive Paul nuts. I know I've bothered him a bit in the past, however unintentionally. ;)
I wonder if he could put a "Happy" rig on "Tideway" - including the bow and stern "sprits" <grin> ;)
Happy has one of those big honkin' jib plus staysail arrangements, not a standard cutter rig at all and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of that sail can't be used on many points of wind or when the wind strengthens. I prefer Tideway's rig, except I'm thinking three sails now - main, jib on retractable bowsprit, and yawl mizzen.
Meerkat
06-24-2005, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
Happy has one of those big honkin' jib plus staysail arrangements, not a standard cutter rig at all What the flip do you think a cutter rig IS? :confused:
Originally posted by Meerkat:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
Happy has one of those big honkin' jib plus staysail arrangements, not a standard cutter rig at all What the flip do you think a cutter rig IS? :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Allow Dudley Dix to clarify:
This (Cape Henry 21) rig looks like conventional cutter but is not intended to be sailed with both headsails at the same time except when reaching. To work well together with a staysail, the jib needs to be a Yankee, ie a high-clewed high-aspect working sail. Instead, this rig has a large genoa on the end of the bowsprit for use as an all-round headsail in light to moderate conditions. It is set on a roller furler so that it can be doused without crew having to venture out onto the bowsprit.
I suppose Happy's headsail is high aspect ratio, not exactly high-clewed.
Edited to add: But I think Hess's Falmouth 22 has similar foresails to Happy, so ok, Happy is a 'real' cutter, I guess. :D
[ 06-24-2005, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]
Venchka
06-24-2005, 09:21 PM
Bits of trivia...
Folks who own the GRP versions of the CC 19 do indeed fly high cut Yankees. The folks who don't have them are looking for them.
Folks who go offshore select routes that avoid sailing to weather. Reaching is the norm. Tacks and gybes are measured by the week. To date, the rig of choice for short-handed reaching is a pair of boomed out staysails. Mainsail furled on the boom. The cutter rig does this well. When needed, the cutter rig goes to weather nicely.
Collect all the wind data you can find for the B.C. coast. Present it to the designer of choice, even you. Ask him/yourself which hull+sail plan suits your neighborhood.
There are several SA/D calculators on the internet. Run the numbers for various boats. Find a moderate boat.
Rants removed for the sake of civility.
This would be a cutter, single reef in main, sailing to windward off Vancouver Island.
http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/surprise2profile.jpg
http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Surprise02.JPG
http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Surprise16.JPG
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 06-24-2005, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
I'll start by taking the combined CE of the sail plan and total sail area as designed by Paul Fisher and leaving those two calcs alone I will play around and see what I come up with.
Venchka
06-24-2005, 10:22 PM
Here's a good calculator.
Sail Calculator (http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/2727/flicka_calculator.html)
I also keep forgetting that you want a motorsailer. ;)
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Meerkat
06-24-2005, 10:25 PM
Odds are, those Vancouver pics were taken in fall (most likely) or winter. In summer, Puget sound is not a particularly windy place for the most part. What wind there is is consisently out of the N - in fact, when the wind starts to come from the S, it's going to rain and/or storm quite soon.
For good sailing in the summer on Puget Sound, a Generous sail plan, with a good genoa or genniker, would be best.
Vench; what the bloomin 'eck do you mean by "dual poled out staysails"? That won't work (easily) on a reach!!! Now, on a run.... in light airs, a genney poled out opposite the main would be the best plan for the conditions. In stronger air, fall back on staysail (boomed out) and main. On a reach (nothing is boomed except the main), furl the staysail and fly a honking big genny (120% or better) in light winds - move to main/jib and then main/staysail when it pipes up.
wanders off muttering to self about swamp critters that don't even own any headsails...<mumble> <mumble>, <mumble> ...
Venchka
06-24-2005, 10:51 PM
First of all, Ol Jim will be sailing farther north. With luck, he might even get over to the big sound south of Port Alberni. Maybe down do Bamfield. Or over to Desolation Sound. Maybe Princess Louisa Inlet. None of which is in Puget Sound as I recall. Conditions may be similar. Light air summers. Fog. Less rain. A lot less rain.
Offshore!
Ok, you got me. There's reaching and then there's reaching. I seem to recall anything between close hauled and dead downwind was reaching. Close reaching. Beam reaching. Broad reaching. Broad reaching is where the twins come into their own. There's a good 90 degree range (45 degrees either side of dead downwind) when the twin staysails on twin whisker poles work. For all I know, the range is greater, perhaps 120 degrees. The main is in the way and furled. That also keeps the main from chaffing itself to death against the shrouds. As the stay is tacked no farther forward then the stemhead, nobody has to go out on the bowsprit. AND the huge bonus is that the staysail sheets lead to the tiller and steer the boat while the skipper bags zzzzz's below in his comfy pipe berth. A poor man's downwind self-steering set up. Folks have been doing it for eons. Somebody posted a link her at the Forum (Misc. Boat Related) which explains it all very clearly. And yes, tacks and gybes are measured in weeks. As in weeks apart.
Ok, here's the link:
Twizzle Rig (http://www.simetric.co.uk/twizzle_rig/)
I also recall a French inspired headsail that was two layers on a single luff wire. For close hauled to beam reaching, the two clews were joined with a single sheet. For broad reaching, the clews were separated, poled out and used two sheets. It's possible this type of headsail could be on a furler at the end of bowsprit which might be what you saw.
Running dead downwind is to be avoided more so than close hauled. Miserable motion. Slow. Hot. Hate it.
JohnB in EnZed, help me out here, mate.
Wayne
Not even close to headsail challenged In the Swamp. :D
[ 06-25-2005, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Meerkat
06-24-2005, 11:00 PM
Wellll.... everytime I've seen twin headsails boomed out, they've been flown off the jibstay, not the staysail stay. There's a reason for it, but I've forgotten what it is.
One can also use the main boom for one side and a pole for the other side and run wing and wing on the jib and staysail.
So I'm looking for examples of the various CE calculations for yawls. All I can find at the moment is a couple ketches but I'll use these to illustrate. The CE of the main alone is forward of the total CE, so this would suggest that the combined CE of jib and mizzen is quite a bit aft of the main CE, roughly at the same point as the CLR while the boat is trim and at rest. I might have thought that the total CE would be at the same place (longitudinally - no need to complicate matters with vertical CE measurements here) as the main by itself and therefore the same as the combination of jib and mizzen, but this is not so. Perhaps the reason is the boat ought to heel less under jib and mizzen only and therefore the CLR will not move as far forward.
Chris Lasdauskas
06-25-2005, 09:20 AM
Going back to the original topic of good mini-cruisers in general, how about Bolger's design #635 Colonel HG Hasler? As designed it's made of steel, but he has talked about a plywood version.
I don't want to post links to someone's private website files, but if you search the Yahoo Bolger group for 'hasler' you should find links published by Bruce Hallman to a scanned article from Messing About In Boats "Design for a minimum world-cruising single-hander".
Bolger concludes "We think the result is the most capable 20-footer ever conceived."
Venchka
06-25-2005, 09:40 AM
I have looked at Bolger's Hasler. My conclusion? If the Hasler is the answer for a small ocean cruiser, I need to ask a different question.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Chris Lasdauskas
06-25-2005, 10:26 AM
Ho, ho...
why?
Anyone got a pic of Bolger's Hasler?
Venchka
06-25-2005, 11:27 AM
Jim,
Join the Yahoo Bolger3 group. There is a scan of an article PCB wrote about the boat in the FILES (not photos) section. More submarine than cruising sailboat. SWAGGIE seems to be a more practical solution.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Venchka
06-25-2005, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Chris Lasdauskas:
Ho, ho...
why?OK, you asked. My opinions only. Too big. Too heavy. Too enclosed. Too complicated. Too single purpose. Too expensive. Too un-boat like. Too just plain bizzare! Too much like a solar oven for the Tropics. You know, there really aren't any good adjectives for this boat. I am resisting the "U" word, but probably applies in this case. It is so far removed from conventional sailboats that it very nearly doesn't resemble a boat. "Know what I mean, Vern?"
Bring it on, Folks! Convince me that PCB's Col. Hasler is the end all to beat all of small globe circling boats.
Bolger 3-Col. Hasler Files (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/)
Sign up. Go have a look.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
I don't want to see it badly enough to sign up, but thanks anyway :D
Meerkat
06-25-2005, 02:00 PM
JW has a new "super swaggie" coming along called "Sundownder". 6.5 metres or a hair over 21'. Double-skinned ply. Blue water capable. Designed to be inexpensive and buildable by an amateur working full time in 6 months. No pics or sketches yet, but the design has to be done by Sept so the client can get started (in NZ, under JW's supervision!). That ought to debug the plans nicely.
Venchka
06-25-2005, 03:05 PM
I wish John and client good luck. Sept.-Feb. for building. March for outfitting, testing and provisioning. April blast off across the Tasman Sea. Sounds like a great plan! I look forward to following the progress.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Nine foot beam, its rumoured. Quite a platform.
And there's always Alastair Hunter's Phantom 14. 14 feet on deck, almost 24 feet with what looks like about a 10 foot bowsprit, and 800 kilograms of lead to keep her on her feet.
http://www.naval-architect.com/Phantom14spec.pdf
Meerkat
06-25-2005, 07:14 PM
Hmmmm...!!!
http://www.naval-architect.com/pics/shuffle1.jpg
7m "Shuttle" class. Alas, it's steel construction.
[ 06-25-2005, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
Venchka
06-25-2005, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
Nine foot beam, its rumoured. Quite a platform.Road transport challenged. Bummer for us landlocked types. :eek: :rolleyes: :confused:
14' LOA, 1,760 pounds of ballast? I'm looking for an 18' boat with a sailing weight equal to this boats ballast. I thought Tideway was heavy. Yikes!
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 06-25-2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Meerkat
06-26-2005, 02:27 AM
I guess "Swaggie" wouldn't suit you then either: bare weight is 2650#.
Originally posted by Venchka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
Nine foot beam, its rumoured. Quite a platform.Road transport challenged. Bummer for us landlocked types. :eek: :rolleyes: :confused:
14' LOA, 1,760 pounds of ballast? I'm looking for an 18' boat with a sailing weight equal to this boats ballast. I thought Tideway was heavy. Yikes!
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D </font>[/QUOTE]A write up on Phantom a couple years ago in Classic Boat Magazine seemed to question Hunter's sanity for designing such a boat. It does put 700#s in perspective, though.
Originally posted by Meerkat:
I guess "Swaggie" wouldn't suit you then either: bare weight is 2650#.However, Swaggie would still suit me just fine. At least the bare hull would. I'd change all the rest including the rig to a conventional arrangement.
Venchka
06-26-2005, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Meerkat:
I guess "Swaggie" wouldn't suit you then either: bare weight is 2650#.SWAGGIE is on the extreme Outer Limits of what I consider practical given all of my various and sundry parameters and limitations. SWAGGIE's single purpose focus is more of a concern than the bulk, rig and weight. Coastal cruising is not SWAGGIE's cup of tea I'm afraid.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Meerkat
06-26-2005, 02:40 PM
Sez you - why do you think that coastal cruising is not Swaggie's cup of tea? tongue.gif
I think Swaggie would be an awesome coastal cruiser, once you got rid of the bubble and gave her a proper cockpit.
Meerkat
06-26-2005, 05:09 PM
I agree! Sundowner, only 3' longer has, I believe, a "proper" cockpit and might indeed make the best all-around sailboat.
One hopes to see a sketch sooner than later. smile.gif
Originally posted by Meerkat:
I agree! Sundowner, only 3' longer has, I believe, a "proper" cockpit and might indeed make the best all-around sailboat.
One hopes to see a sketch sooner than later. smile.gif Sundowner would probably be too much boat for me, given I'm looking seriously at Tideway 14. I would scale down Sundowner until I got Swaggie with that 'proper' cockpit :D
Venchka
06-26-2005, 06:26 PM
SWAGGIE's "bubble" is a no brainer. You loose it when the sliding hatch is installed. The cockpit would be a bit more difficult to incorporate and might usurp the head's location. There's all that ballast to lug thousands of miles on the highway. The extra planking thickness...not too sure it if it's needed close to shore. The rig. I might be able to get my head around the rig. Or not.
All of that is just nit picking a truly fine boat for sailing over the horizon to anywhere you want to go. Blue water or coastal, what I want to know is, where do you put the motor? Can you you use a motor at all? Don't even think about saying a motor isn't required. It is.
If Sundowner's estimated beam is correct, the market for potential builders shrinks exponentially. John has sold 550+ sets of Navigator plans because it fits within a 15'x6' envelope and has a reputation as a very seaworthy boat in a place where conditions cen be quite extreme. If the boat required a 16'x7' envelope, not as many people could build it. Any boat that can't be moved overland without special permits will have a very small following. I put SWAGGIE in the same category. I dare say that few if any plans have been sold to folks more than a few miles from a navigable waterway leading to open water.
We digress. Jim wants an unsinkable, non-capsizable heavily ballasted short canvassed boat. David wants a boat with quarter berths and a heater. Wayne wants a lightly ballasted boat on a trailer with a dry bunk and a sailplan (headsails optional) that produces performance very high on the Grin Scale! I wouldn't mind if John worked out the shape on the side of turning to weather when healed a bunch and self-steering.
We don't want the same boat.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
We don't want the same boat. It took you this long to figure that out? :D
Meerkat
06-26-2005, 06:59 PM
companion way hatches and bubbles are not incompatible: one mounts the bubble in the slide. ;)
I really haven't made up my mind about anything yet. Was toying with the idea of a Scout a couple of hours ago. I'm going to wait and see what she ends up looking like and if she'd be a reasonable single-hander.
No! No sliding bubble! Don't do it! Run away! :eek:
Meerkat
06-26-2005, 07:08 PM
I've an email buddy who built a strip plank 18' boat (Bruce Roberts design) and sailed it from Montreal, Ca to Australia where he settled down. Somewhere, not too far along the way, he closed off the companionway and installed a hinged top with a bubble in it. Made getting in and out a bit harder, but it virtually removed the possibility of water getting below!
Something to think about - but I can't say I much like the look of bubbles on sailboats.
I've considered the idea of a hinged hatch for water tightness if I ever decide to take my little wooden world a long way from home. How about Vancouver to Townsville, Queensland in a Tideway? Instead of 700# ballast I'd make it 500#s iron and concrete and 200#s water to drink along the way, or something like that. (I think I just scared myself :eek: )
Edited to add: I know 200#s wouldn't be enough but its a start.
[ 06-26-2005, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]
Meerkat
06-26-2005, 07:21 PM
100 litres is a good start. I think there are 4.3 litres in a gallon, and a gallon weighs 8.3#
Venchka
06-26-2005, 08:26 PM
24 gallons of water in 2 gallon containers will get you from Victoria, B.C. to Sydney, OZ. Refilled along the way of course. No allowance for collecting rainwater. OOPS! That's in a boat with an 18'-6" LWL. :D Tideway might need more. GOOGLE up the guy who sailed from L.A. to Hawaii. Ask him how much water he carried. That is the longest leg of the trip. YMMV.
Water ration estimates are all over the map. Some people say 3 litres or quarts per day. Other folks (Nick Grainger) estimated 1 quart/day/person and actually built up a reserve. I ran across a medical opinion that stated 2 liters/day as a healthy minimum. 24 gallons (192 pounds plus container weight) is therefore somewhere between a 32 and 96 day supply. Have a way to collect rainwater and also a way to store seawater to replace the fresh water ballast.
Montgomery-15 sloop Little Breeze from Newport Beach to Oahu recently in a creditable 36 days.M-15 to Hawaii (http://www.msog.org/yarns/hawaii15.cfm)
Getting back home could take a bit longer.
Any small boat that sets off across open water is essentially water and food ballasted.
Read JW's recent post on small boat capacity at jwbuilders.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
Venchka
06-26-2005, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by JimD:
... How about Vancouver to Townsville, Queensland in a Tideway?Doable. A record maybe. Or maybe not. Check Famous Small Boats web page.
Navigating through the Reef at Townsville might be a bit tricky. The approach to Brisbane looks easier. In small boats, straight lines aren't always the best way. J.G. found shopping in Townsville very good. You can stock up for the trip home.
You have lots of time, by the way.
Heckel Completes Second Circumnavigation at Age 89
June 10 - Jacksonville, FL
That's right, for on June 4, 89-year-old Harry Heckel, frequently written up
in Latitude 38, docked his Dreadnought 32 at Jacksonville, Florida, marking
the end of his second circumnavigation.
"The event marked more than just the end of 16 years of solo sailing,"
said Heckel, "it marked time for me to get off the bridge and become
a passenger. At age 89, it's best to let someone else do the heavy
lifting aboard Idle Queen.
"The 10-year period of my second trip around the world has been a
time of significant learning for me," continued Heckel. "It became
apparent that people who travel to new places in small boats are, as a
group, the finest in the world. They are interested in people, places,
and events, cognizant of the need to be on the lookout for trouble,
and always ready to assist a fellow traveler. My belief that on a one-to-one
basis, people from whatever country can be friendly and helpful,
particularly to the elderly, was amply confirmed. My traveling now
will be limited to U.S. waters and with a companion. Regards to all
my friends."
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
[ 06-26-2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
I'm very fond of Townsville. It's just about a year that I was last there. My late brother's family lives a ways inland from Townsville. I also have a nephew in Brisbaine.
Edited to add: Some days I sure feel old :D
[ 06-26-2005, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]
Venchka
06-26-2005, 10:16 PM
You set your sights on Townsville.
Hey, where are you going to stow the dinghy on Tideway? EH????????? :D
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D
John B
06-26-2005, 11:39 PM
Moi?.. someone rang?
yeah, running flat off in a breeze with a gaff. The pits. Hate it.
I tell you what we do when we do have to do it. this works. pole out the staysail and it shoots a breeze into the jib and makes that set (mostly)even if its technically blanketed by the main.
oh dang. I was rung on page three of this thread. I'll go back to sleep now.
[ 06-27-2005, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: John B ]
Aramas
06-27-2005, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by JimD:
I'm very fond of Townsville.Ick! Try living here for a few years! We have "AJ's" (Army Jerks, as they're universally known in these parts). Still, if you stay away from nightclubs then you probably won't get hit. It's a good thing that they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag - I've been attacked 7 or 8 times in the last couple of years and they've yet to leave a mark. Well, one guy tried to strangle me under a pool table once, but I was laughing so hard that the sore throat the next day was worth the fun smile.gif
Oh, and they're always 'Special Forces' - or so they claim tongue.gif Apparently the cooks and truck drivers are too busy to go clubbing.
In all fairness, most of them are decent people, but there are enough drunken dipsticks out on any given night to give them a well-deserved and unflattering reputation.
[ 06-27-2005, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]
Meerkat
06-27-2005, 02:53 AM
Sounds like outback Australia hasn't changed in the slightest since I lived there at the end of the 60's/beginning of the 70's.
"What are you doing this weekend?"
"Same thing I do every weekend, mate: get pissed and have a bash."
We had a Kiwi construction worker that used to regularly clean up the bar with Aussie construction workers.
Me? I sat on the sidelines and watched the "fun".
tongue.gif :D
I'm ex army myself if I go back far enough, although I haven't been in a bar fight in decades and I no longer drink or frequent pool halls, so I think I'd be ok. It's the proximity of the ocean that appeals to me, plus the fact that Townsville is about the right size for my liking. Big enough to have all the amenities of city life but small enough that you never feel trapped in a concrete jungle. But I know what you mean about the effects of military bases on smaller metropolitan centers. How about Mission Beach, then? I went kayaking there and there was a regatta going on at the time. Even saw a couple cassowary's!
Aramas
06-27-2005, 08:23 PM
Townsville's redeeming feature is that it's in the dry tropics, so the humidity is relatively low. I did some demolition work in Cairns last winter and the humidity was oppressive.
I suppose it depends on what you do here. Townsville as a cultural centre sucks big ones, but as a centre of operations for enjoying the islands and the reef, it's not bad at all.
Overall, I think Cairns is probably the best place in North Queensland. Even though it's smaller than Townsville it has far better service industries, including the boat related ones, and better night life for kids of all ages. Townsville is better serviced by heavy industries, which is fine if you're looking for work and don't mind getting dirty (or squashed), but it doesn't do much for liveability.
Of the people that I've met here who were from somewhere else, and who I actually liked, the one thing they had in common was that they didn't like living here and they left. Generally, the people that like living here have never lived anywhere else, or are rather unsophisticated.
North of Sydney, there are really only four major centres where well travelled, relatively culturally enlightened people enjoy living. Byron Bay (for the 'alternative' lifestyle), the Gold Coast (for the superficially inclined), Brisbane (a real city) and Cairns (laid back tropics with style).
[ 06-27-2005, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Aramas ]
I got to sail on a 60 foot schooner out of Cairns. Just as a paying tourist. One of the best days of my life smile.gif
Meerkat
06-27-2005, 10:01 PM
A Tideway 14 from Victoria to Vancouver ought to thrill you no end! The middle of Princess Charlotte Sound is waaaaay far from either side! :eek: ;) smile.gif
Originally posted by Meerkat:
A Tideway 14 from Victoria to Vancouver ought to thrill you no end! The middle of Princess Charlotte Sound is waaaaay far from either side! :eek: ;) smile.gif Realistically, that's about what I'm thinking, too. A 14 footer makes almost any sailing an adventure. Plenty of opportunities between Vancouver Island and the mainland.
Originally posted by Venchka:
Oh, never mind.
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Go ahead! Say it, Mr Smug Guy! :D Did you really think I'd cross the Pacific in a 14 foot boat just like that? First come the sea trials around Vancouver Island, then the Pacific. :eek:
Meerkat
06-28-2005, 03:32 PM
What have I started! :D
Jim; Let's give ole Venchie a hollowed out log sailing canoe and 100# of alligator jerky and let him reenact the venturesome voyage of Capt. Voss. If he makes it back, we can think of mounting our own, better founded, expedition.
Otherwise, he could take that Caladonia thingie and recreate Chile's open boat across the Pacific adventure! He'll have an advantage over Chiles of having a boat with good, sealed flotation! :D :D :D
Jim; Let's give ole Venchie a hollowed out log sailing canoe and 100# of alligator jerky... Exactly! He talks purdy big when it comes to what other folks are supposed to cross oceans in, don't he?! :D
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