Any suggestions: Books on wooden boat building? [Archive]

Walcheren

12-01-2002, 05:50 PM

When I was more of an novice than I am today I followed a canoe building course in San Francisco put on by Wooden Boat and led by Tom Hill. What I got out of that is the confidence that I could do that sort of thing. So then I built two Wee Lassie's which taught me a lot thanks to excellent building instruction by Mac. In the meantime I started collecting Wooden Boat magazines ( I have them all now) and read every appropriate article and still do. Got Chapelle of course and Stewards book. Both excellent. Then I built the Catspaw which again comes with excellent intructions which you just have to follow. And then there is this Forum which I have been using while building the Poulsbo as I had only very scanty building instructions. And off and on I look in the books and our Magazine. So now I am less of a novice. Just go for it and start simple. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Bruce Taylor

12-01-2002, 07:21 PM

A Simmons, eh? Then Dave Carnell is your man. Have you been in touch with him, J.D.?

A book about lap. ply construction wouldn't hurt, as Phil says, and Iain Oughtred's is excellent.

However, Oughtred's boats are a far cry from the Simmons. If large ply-on-frame motor skiffs are your thing, Glen L. Witt's _BoatBuilding with Plywood_ might hit the spot.

Steve Lansdowne

12-01-2002, 08:01 PM

What all these posts should be telling you is that there are several basic types of wooden boat hull construction methods: carvel, lapstrake, strip planked, and stitch and glue are the most common ones. If you have interest in a particular boat, the best thing may be to get a book that covers the particular type of hull construction for the boat you're interested in. Some boats can be built using more than one method.

DutchRub

12-01-2002, 08:18 PM

As a Simmons skiff is not built as a traditional lapstrake skiff is ( wholly plywood planked with sawn frames), I think Ken Hankinsons book on "Plywood Boat Construction" might be the best bet for him in this case. An excellent book on the subject by the way. Much better in explaining this method of construction than some earlier better known builders who only sampled it vicariously or who concsidered it only suitable for low quality/lesser vessels.

[ 12-01-2002, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

new2this

12-01-2002, 08:35 PM

Bruce,
I did send Dave an e-mail Saturday, but I haven't heard back from him yet. Where can I get that book you were talking about, Building Boats With Plywood? Thanks everyone for the input. I've always been interested in this stuff and I'd like to learn more about it.

Bill Perkins

12-02-2002, 12:10 AM

Some pics are here if you need to refresh your memory about the Simmons .

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291376151

jorgoz

12-02-2002, 04:12 AM

Hey guys, haven't you forgoten "Gougeon brothers on boat construction" ? One of my favorites.

Bruce Taylor

12-02-2002, 07:10 AM

J.D., you can find used copies of _Boatbuilding with Plywood_ through www.bookfinder.com (http://www.bookfinder.com) or www.abebooks.com (http://www.abebooks.com)

The book is still in print and available through the Woodenboat Store, Amazon.com, or your local dealer.

Ken Hankinson co-authored the book with Glen L. Witt. If Hankinson has published a separate volume under the title "Plywood Boat Construction," I've never heard of it. If it exists at all, it must be extremely rare.

[ 12-02-2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

Tar Devil

12-02-2002, 08:56 AM

As a Simmons skiff is not built as a traditional lapstrake skiff is ( wholly plywood planked with sawn frames), I think Ken Hankinsons book on "Plywood Boat Construction" might be the best bet for him in this case Perhaps I don't understand what you mean... I've only seen one Simmons (on Custom Skiff's old web site) that wasn't glued lapstrake. There's nothing in Glen L. Witt's/Hankinson's book about lapstrake, only ply panel construction. I still think either Oughtred or Tom Hill's books would be much better preparatory books if JD plans to build a Simmons.

Later,

Phil

new2this

12-02-2002, 12:01 PM

What exactly is lapstrake construction? I may be confusing it with strip planking. I saw somewhere, maybe on Dave's website, that the Simmons was built using plywood in some places and lapstrake in others. Looks like the floor might be plywood, and the sides lapstrake. Am I correct?

Bruce Taylor

12-02-2002, 01:42 PM

Hmm. It sounds like you do need a good all-round introduction to the craft. Buy the Steward book, as a couple of others have suggested.

In traditional lapstrake construction (also called "clinker") solid wooden planks are fastened to bent frames with rivets, clench-nails or trunnels (wooden pegs). The lower edge of each plank overlaps the upper edge of the one below it, giving the planks a characteristic stepped appearance -- as on this Lyman:

http://www.clinkerbuilt.com/images/18runabout01s.jpg

In lapstrake/plywood construction the "planks" are cut from sheets of marine plywood. The overlapping planks are usually epoxied together (although other marine glues are sometimes used). In some cases, lap/ply boats can be designed to need few (or even no) frames.

The Simmons skiffs were built in lapstrake ply, but over sawn frames, if I remember correctly (assuming that's so...I don't know if they were built up from ply, or cut from solid stock...Dave Carnell can tell you). Structurally, I believe they are more like the plywood-on-frame motor-boats featured in the Witt/Hankinson book than they are like the frameless ultralights built by Tom Hill or the shapely clinker craft in Oughtred's catalog. However, as Phil says, before planking such a boat you will certainly need to know how to spile and bevel planks -- subjects not covered by Witt.

For now, I suggest you get the Steward, and as many design catalogs as you can afford.

[ 12-02-2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

On Vacation

12-02-2002, 01:57 PM

This is all original Simmons Sea Skiff kept in all original no glits condition. The real early ones were cedar solid planked and the he switched over to plywood construction. He built with fir plywood and switched to MDO plywood for the later ones. They were built with no caulking. He used clinch nails in the real early ones for the laps.
Notice the laps on the inside close up shots.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid31/pbd2d12dd9b033173390cbafefa243008/fd493f0a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid31/p2607ede04cef1519da87ebf59af27d2c/fd4938d6.jpg

ishmael

12-02-2002, 02:06 PM

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone mentioned Gardner's "The Dory Book". I've never seen one of these Simmons boats, but it looks to me they are a heck of alot like a flat iron skiff, except for a little dead rise in the bottom. If they are in fact built over sawn frames, as Bruce says, I think Gardner's book would be a great place to get a feel for similar constructions.

The drawings I've seen of this boat simplify the laps by having no bevel. Is that the case? All the better.

I think this would be a great boat to start with.

Best of luck,

Jack

P.S. After looking at Oyster's pictures it's clear it is built over sawn frames. It is basically a power dory with a slight v to the bottom.

"The Dory Book"! What am I missing?

[ 12-02-2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Bruce Taylor

12-02-2002, 02:31 PM

Good stuff, Oyster!

Good points, Jack...the Dory Book is an excellent resource.

On Vacation

12-02-2002, 02:37 PM

I got some real eye opener stuff if I can get imagestation to work right over here. I have it on some old disc but can't get it loaded. That is one that was updated in combination with the owner doing the finish work after I did the upgrade on hardware and bottom. It was at the Simmons show in Sept. and it was on the file for the show.

Bruce Taylor

12-02-2002, 03:59 PM

Imagestation is working for me, Mike. Maybe there's a problem with the format of the files?

If you think it might help, you could e-mail them to me and I'll put them up.

new2this

12-02-2002, 09:20 PM

What is the advantage to having the motor mounted in the well in the boat instead of directly mounted to the transom. How fast will it go with a 40 HP 2-stroke? Do you al know how a boat like this would handle in say, 2-4' seas? Seems like you know a lot about these Oyster, I'd appreciate your input.

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 07:43 AM

The 18 footer can be pushed by a 25 hp. The 20 lowside can be run by a 40 hp. Running in 2 to 4 foot seas, the boat will take it but it is a small boat on the bottom. So you will find it to be more tender. It will do a grand job in the coastal waters and off the beach but many have been used for offshore fishing even built the old ways by Mr. Simmons.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/p005db69ad85af1f7f64ff35948e39734/fcfa0f0f.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/p2aa4ddf96c0b625be1a9246e0cd1dd18/fcfa0f03.jpg

new2this

12-03-2002, 10:44 AM

Oyster,
Where I fish, we tend to have more of a chop than a groundswell, especially along the coast. Mostly the typical offshore day is 2' or less. So it sounds like it would do quite well for these purposes. On Dave's website, it said that the recommended Max- HP for the 18 was 40. Can you go bigger? I guess you would not go any smaller than a 25 on the 18? I appreciate your advice. I'd kind of like to know if I'm in over my head before I get the plans.

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 04:22 PM

Ishmael you are correct-there is no bevel needed on the laps and Gardners book is also a good suggestion- some of the earlier Simmons boats had some beveling on the gains in the transom area, but the later boats seemed to lack this feature whichI believe was due to building the transoms with less tumblehome.This and the bottom of the boat not being lapped construction is what I meant by not traditonal lapstrake construction.

As far a a great boat to start with it aint the most complicated to build but it also is a lot more than a simple flat bottomed skiff with minimal frame fitting. Bending the chines in is a bitch no matter how its done. If you dont have experience with this older style with its narrow beam to length ratio with the narrow bottom, sitting on the water anchored can be a bit like being in a canoe as compared to a more stable wide bottomed boat espeacially in the 17 footer which the 18 should more rightly be called. Once your under weigh no problem with the stability.

No plank spiling necessary on this boat if ya follow the plans.

You can safely go to about 40 hp on the 17 and 90 on the 20 footer-these boats do not handle 4 stroke motors well, because of the well ( size restrictions) and the weight of the motor. However a 20 footer can accomodate a 50 or 55 hp 4 stroke and the 17 may accomodate something small-like a 20 or 25hp-turn radius and cowling size should be checked prior to purchase-well size can be made longer and/or wider, but this reduces planing surface and may affect performance.

[ 12-03-2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

new2this

12-03-2002, 04:53 PM

Dutch,
What do you mean by like a canoe sitting in the water? Is it unstable at anchor? Rocky? Is the problem any less with the 20 footer? Are the 20s more difficult to build than the 17? Pardon all the questions, but it sounds like you also have some real world experience with these crafts.

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 05:26 PM

Sorry about the misimformation on the engines we are seeing new2this. This is just not correct on the four strokes and putting the ninety horepower on the 20. That is just braindead. Check out the seat thread on the simmons.

Bruce Taylor

12-03-2002, 05:55 PM

Great pics, Mike.

So who's the dangerous-looking dude with the sunglasses?

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 06:38 PM

He's my buddy. He is the owner and a great fellow. But not one to irritate at eleven past the evening hour in a motorcycle bar. In his prime, he could lift four hundred in one hand an smack you with the other. The stories he can tell will make Shane put you to sleep. Every now and then I will go over and get the boat in the dark and take it fishing. He will call me and laugh.

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 07:45 PM

Oyster-

As I have a great deal of real world experience with these hulls-and I imagine a lot more than yourn, I know that I 90 hp 2 stroke motor is a great match for a high sided 20 Simmons. No more hp than that however, as that is tops which is what I wrote.And I wouldnt put that much hp on a rickety old Simmons that had not had a professional grade refurbishing of the motor well/transom either. And the information on the 4 strokes is dead on right as well-if you think Im wrong tell me where.
Take a look at issue 144 with the article on the Simmons skiff- 2 of the 20s shown are running with 90 hp Yamahas-the red and the blue one- both are sweet running machines. I know both the owners and the boats.

[ 12-03-2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 07:58 PM

I am looking foward to you making me out a complete asshole tonight. Post all your information and pictures of your Simmons and the 90 hp engines that you have installed on the 20 highside. I will share with you my 20 high side with a 40 horse four stroke Suzuki that will out perform your gas hog, overweight 90 horse that will not fit in the well unless modified . You are blowing hotair.

Look, if you have so much experience with wooden boats, please feel free to enlighten us as to where you work and I will bring you a big bottle of the finest Champagne and will post pictures of me kissing your feet, oh humble pie. Let the board be witness, tonight.

While you were again editing your post, I was typing. The 90 hp Yamaha is a three cylinder motor of light weight and requires a long shaft height.

[ 12-03-2002, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 08:05 PM

Sir Oyster- my pictures dont have to be posted from some unknown source, --anyone can look at issue # 144 September/October 1998 Wooden Boat Magazine pages60-66.Page 61 shows a close up of Troy Allens 20 high side with the 90 hp Yamaha I sighted page 63 shows Henry Chambers blue 20 high side with the 90 hp Yamaha ( see quote in article on page 90)And these aint no gas hogs either-can you pull up 2 skiers behind that 20 with a 40 hp motor on it? Doubt it a lot-probably cant hardly get out of its own way with 4 adults , a load of gas, and a case of beer.

By the way also if you follow the plans a 2 stroke Yamaha 90 hp motor fits very nicely into the well.

[ 12-03-2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 08:09 PM

Which means what? Ive not redone or built a new skiff that would not accommodate a long shaft motor. Simons built his to take the 15 inch shafts of the day and Ive seen a lot of em modified for more modern 20 inchers.Youd be a fool not to give yourself a bit more freeboard.

[ 12-03-2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 08:22 PM

Well, let me just say if you are Michael Hubbard, you have a serious attitude problem to be in the business at all. The 20 high side in the issue you speak of has a 90 hp, but the motor is a 20 inch shaft and requires alteration.

It is not needed even if you installed it. The traditional 20 foot built by Mr. Simmons required a 40 minimum and the maximun of 50 hp. Engines in the era of the traditional built Simmons were completely different in weight and shaft horespower. The boats were built for fishing period. Anyone can modify or update a boat to do more than actual specifications.

Oh , as far as doctoring pictures, I can take you for a ride on about twelve assorted Simmons within the reach of my bicycle. Just let me know when you will show up.

Again, feel free to accept my bottle of prime sparkles .Feel free to let me know where to deliver it.

Your move.

Memphis Mike

12-03-2002, 08:36 PM

Naw, it's my move. Being a fan of the
Simmons myself, I'd rather not see this
thread ruined. Rub, if you want a fight,
why don't you folla me over ta Misc.
You won't tell anyone who you are,
much less post your sources. Frankly, If
I was going to build a Simmons, you would
be the last I would ask about it's
construction.

New2this, sorry for the outburst. The Simmons
is a difficult boat to build for a newbe.
We like to see folks succeed in their projects.
You may want to consider a stitch and glue
project first. The great looks of the Simmons
are hard to beat though.

As was suggested, one of Payson's books would
be a great place to start. I've already built
the Diablo and I'm working on the Windsprint.

[ 12-03-2002, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Oyster:
The 20 high side in the issue you speak of has a 90 hp, but the motor is a 20 inch shaft and requires alteration.

It is not needed even if you installed it.It requires no alterations from the plans or from the original 20 foot Simmons to put the 2 stroke 90 hp Yamaha in the boat. No the boats dont need it -do they need the 40 hp motor either? How about a 20 hp-is that too much too? You are free to use oars as the "REAL TRADITIONAL SIMMONS SKIFFS" did.

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 08:41 PM

MM-

my source is as I stated- this forums magazine-issue # 144 see and read for yourself. Thats all I can say-if ya have got to believe in the Oysters word no matter what then God help you and those like you-cause believe it or not-HES WRONG!

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 08:51 PM

You surely keep me on my toes. I had to doctor this photo up quickly.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/pfd38f76de906a8d036bb22b0fcacd419/fcf95c4b.jpg

Memphis Mike

12-03-2002, 08:52 PM

Whatever Rub.

[ 12-03-2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Oyster:
Sorry about the misimformation on the engines we are seeing new2this. This is just not correct on the four strokes and putting the ninety horepower on the 20. That is just braindead. Check out the seat thread on the simmons.I told you you were wrong. You are-source Wooden Boat # 144

Can you tell me how your photo reinforces YOUR argument?

[ 12-03-2002, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Oyster:
I am looking foward to you making me out a complete asshole tonight. I will bring you a big bottle of the finest Champagne and will post pictures of me kissing your feet, oh humble pie. Let the board be witness, tonight.

[ 12-03-2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 09:18 PM

Tell me where to bring the sparkles. The 20 highside in the issue of Woodenboat is redone. You state that this copy of Woodenboat is your source. Are you Michael Hubbard or are you just a reader of the magazine?

The 20 highside does not require a 90 hp Yamaha. Look at the thread of center console Simmons. You have now stated your source is Woodenboat 144. Either quit your stirring trouble here or share with us who the friggin you are and contribute great things for this board or go the hell away.

I post oars to reinforce my knowledge of the boat. You are a flaming jerk.

TELL ME WHERE TO BRING THE SPARKLES. I WILL ALSO BRING THE UNTOUCHED DIGITAL CAMERA.

[ 12-03-2002, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Wild Dingo

12-03-2002, 09:21 PM

Okay fellas pull yer heads in and get back to the questions!!! :rolleyes:

Now new2this...

The books quoted are the best there is else these fellas wouldnt have quoted and suggested them. :cool:

Walcheren's advice as was Memphis Mikes is excellent advice which I personally would have to agree with for someone "new2this"...

I dont know Dutchrub havin been away for a bit... he may know what hes talking about I dont know... but I do know Oyster and mate he aint goin to lead you wrong no matter what anyone says!

Its a shame Dave hasnt come on and said anything but no worries...

Now youve got some suggestions... heres another and this be the way Im heading...

Step 1
Build Wee Lassie canoes from Mac MCarthy at feather canoes (http://www.feathercanoes.com) to get the grounding and confidence... By the way the plans come with his book... and hes a brilliant fella!! :D

Step 1a Get and read the books quoted

Step 2
Build the Piccolo available from our hosts for about $36USD I think to get even more experience and knowledge of a different method

Step 2a Continue reading the books and the archives here and get a subscription of the mag!

Step 3
With a bunch of great people build a stitch and glue fishin skiff such as Preditor from Tracy O'Brian or the Diablo or such... again gaining more experience and knowledge

Step 3a Continue reading and learning start looking at other techniques...

Step three is about when the Simmons would kick in as by then you have a wealth of knowledge and experience and not be "new2this"... you could then sell the canoes or Preditor to recoup some of the money so far spent and go for the Simmons!

Well thats my intent... sorta... but theres at least one sail boat in there after the Piccolo casue Im not mad keen on powerboats... dont mind em but rather be sailing... anyway thats once I decide which one to build!!! tongue.gif

Anyway best of luck mate! Keep us informed on how yer get on and by jingoes dont be a flamin stranger!!

Take it easy
Shane

new2this

12-03-2002, 09:42 PM

I didn't think this question would start such an argument. I know from Dave Carnell's site that the 18 Simmons can even be pushed by a 9.9, but I wondered how big a motor you could put on without being dangerous. I personally like OMC/Bombardier 2-strokes and most of those in the 40-50 HP range are 2-cylinders and quite light. On the other hand, the 75-90 HP are DFIs and V4s, so from what I'm hearing, they would probably sink a Simmons. What I'm trying to do is educate myself on the basics of this craft and the methods used. I think I will buy the book that relates to using sawed plywood lapstrakes. I was atracted to the Simmons because it's a no-frills hull that looks relatively simple and is quite a classic. The information I have gathered also seems to indicate that it is a very seaworthy boat which would be important to me. Thanks, I've learned a lot.

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 09:45 PM

Shane, this is truely a trouble maker here. I just don't want people to be lead in the wrong direction on this boat. A true person that enjoys this boat will do whatever to share words that will help someone to build this boat, not quoting an article to try and make like it knows everything about the Simmons. This is all I will have to say about this issue. Dutchrub is blowing smoke. If not he will come here in open forum and talk of his experiences of the boat.

Dutchrub is a trouble maker, new2this. That is the real problem. I should have never replied ,but I wished that you not be lead astray.

Oh one more issue to ponder. Its kinda hard to keep water out of a boat with a 20 inch shaft on a 15 inch transom if installed with the cavitaiton plate right with the bottom when turning one boat. Yet another evidence of pure ignorance from the master of the Woodenboat magazine article.

[ 12-03-2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

ishmael

12-03-2002, 09:55 PM

Not to worry new2, this one has been going on for awhile and has nothing to do with your questions.

I would consider "The Dory Book" as a reference on this one. It is a decent primer on boat building in general, well written and illustrated, and the Simmon's is very similar to some of Gardner's power dories, except for that v bottom.

Looks like a very fine boat! This is a great resource, with helpful folks to talk you through the times in the moaning chair.

Jack

Wild Dingo

12-03-2002, 10:10 PM

From where I sit Mike no worries... Just didnt want to see it get bogged down in a heated argument mate when the guy wants help... which you and everyone else offered...

I understand what yer sayin mate... and its a flamin shame :( ...sorta tends to spoil the flow of information arrogance is a real buggar!... Now as I said I dont know this dutchrub peanut but it would seem to me that if hes got the lowdown on these particular craft and as he says he has so much personal knowledge and experience then surely he should be prepared to share that in an upfront way??... but as I said I dont know him and have no knowledge of what hes like... so...

I dont want to sound pedantic or whatever here people... but he wasnt after info on the size of motors that the boat can take but rather after info on books on building them... the building techneques is great stuff and he will need to gather that together before he starts out... but the motor Im guessing he would be able to sort out a bit further down the track??... seems to me to be like buyin the horseshoe before youve decided on what sorta horse your getting...

No doubt if hes contacted Dave by email Dave will give him the drum!... eventually... :D have a tad of patience "new2this" ...Dave could probably run rings around us both but he aint no whippersnapper!! ;)

Anyway... no sweat
Take it easy
Shane

Wiley Baggins

12-03-2002, 10:24 PM

new2this,

I believe (and Dave Carnell will probably mention this if it is so) that plans and other information can be had from a museum up there (for you) in Simmons' Country. There was also a nice piece in WoodenBoat Magazine as referenced above. Lastly ("and not for nothing," as a friend of mine would say) you would do well from what I have seen, to listen to Oyster rather than his detractor.

PS (for Oyster) Don't worry, you won't be getting this "group hug" from me down in the bilge (also-known-as Misc Non-Boat Related) ;)

On Vacation

12-03-2002, 10:32 PM

Heres the facts. Dave can put us all to shame. Dutchrub can come clean and help us all about this issue. If a person is truely in love with wooden boats and has worked on a particular design, we should be able to say with complete confidence that one would have a love for it.

Then share with us concrete evidence of more than three boats listed in number 144 and be proud to display, whether in real person by allowing me to visit its shop to feel and touch and to talk. I am not above learning. We all find things facinating about wooden designs and come here to talk about it.

DutchRub

12-03-2002, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Oyster:
Are you Michael Hubbard or are you just a reader of the magazine?

The 20 highside does not require a 90 hp Yamaha. share with us who the friggin you are and contribute great things for this board or go the hell away.

You are a flaming jerk.

Anyone who has read the whole thread will see that the trouble maker is oyster (as usual) I simply responded to new2 trying to steer him clear of misinformation-who has done the name calling and gotten nasty? Poor oyster-whenever someone knows more than he does he gets right defensive. By the way Im Just a reader-but Ive also built Simmons, owned em, and woked on em-I know em inside and out as well as the plans-plans call for a 20 inch well

[ 12-03-2002, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

On Vacation

12-04-2002, 05:41 AM

People here have had enough of your jabs. New2this asked about a 40 hp power two stroke engine. We also discussed the 18 and 20 lowside.
People put big block 454 engines in old chevrolets that came with small 283 engines. Is it needed? NO. Is it desired? Maybe.

The picture of the 20 foot lowside has a Honda four stroke on it. A conventional Simmons with a three piece well and a clamping board will not hold and last with a 90 hp . engine of either two or four stroke on it.

In many of your post you have conveyed to this board of your demand all over the world for your knowledge. You speak about your years of experience with Simmons and woodenboats in general, and yet you are not up to share your knowledge about issues of wooden boats except from an article in WoodenBoat magazine.

This was my reply to new2this:
"The 18 footer can be pushed by a 25 hp. The 20 lowside can be run by a 40 hp."

As I stated to you, I am not opposed to learning. Read what Dave Cannell calls for on his web site.Then come back and tell us what he says to put on the 18 or 20 lowside.

Just in case you unable to find it, I have cut and pasted it for your convenience.

Taken from Dave Carnell's site:
Sea-Skiff 18:
This was Simmons" first production boat. The one from which the plans were drawn was built in 1958. The boat is 17'-1" long, 5'-7" beam, and the hull draws only 5". The hull weight is around 300 pounds and a 25 HP motor will drive it in excess of 30 mph; a 40 HP motor is the recommended maximum. On the other hand a builder in upste NY reports that with two aboard his boat planes with a 9.9 HP motor. The boat will handily carry four, though for serious fishing it is better suited for two. Some took these boats to the Gulf Stream, 50-60 miles offshore.

Sea-Skiff 20:

Only two feet longer than the 18, this boat is twice as large because it is wider and deeper. At 19'-4" length, 7'-11" beam, and about 10" draft this is a boat for four serious fishermen and their gear. The bare hull weighs less than 700 pounds and 50-70 HP is ideal power for it. I have a 50 HP Mariner motor on the 1964 Sea-Skiff 20 that I rebuilt and it does 36 mph at light load. The boat from which the plans were made was built in 1971 for the Corps of Engineers as a survey boat with a crew of four and a heavy load of pipe stakes. The Corps used a 70 HP motor on the boat and operated at 25 mph and higher.
Simmons first built a "low-sided 20" that was a stretched 18. Later he built low-sided 20s by leaving off the top side plank of the high-sided 20. This boat is about 6" wider on the bottom than the old Simmons low-sided 20s. A number of builders have built this version and been well pleased with it.

Sea-Skiff 22:
This boat is proportionately larger than the Sea-Skiff 20 at 21'-6" length, 8'-3" beam, and about 12" draft. Suitable power is 70-90 HP. The hull volume is about 20% greater than the Sea-Skiff 20. Simmons built both open and cabin versions. The plans were made from an open boat, but include sketches of cabins based on photographs the Cape Fear Museum has of Simmons' boats

20 highside 1962 hull with four stroke 40 hp. Suzuki all original boat carrying more than just a pack of nabs and a pepsi cola. It carries supplies to a very nice island on the coast of North Carolina across a BIG body of nasty water called the Cape Fear RIver all four seasons.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/p702d3a24d7acc202b3c9e9733f6ced75/fcf8fd12.jpg

http://www.southshoreboatworks.com
Here is one that was done up north with many additions and modifications.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/pda0f0b85937479c1b333385854905760/fcf8fcc9.jpg

We are still waiting for your contributions.

Dave Carnell

12-04-2002, 06:19 AM

The Simmons Sea-Skiff is not plank-on-frame construction. It is built shell construction, as the Viking ships. The hull is all planked up and the frames added afterwards. Nelson Silva and I discussed eliminating frames right before he died and John Longbottom in NJ built an 18 that way using a stiff gunwale to hold the hull shape.

People use 90HP motors on 20s, but a 50HP on my 1964 20 gives 36mph. Suits me. The Corps of Engineers 20 from which I made the plans for the 20 had a 20-inch well. The 1964 model I rebuilt originally had a 15-inch well. It had been built up to 20-inch which is perfectly o.k.

Simmons' boats were all lapstrake, but the laps are flat laps with disappearing rabbets about 2' long bow and stern so the planks are flush at the stem and transom. Simmons originally beveled the planks at the transom which had a series of flats. Then he went to a smooth-curve transom with flat laps. He used a 1" wide molding head in his radial arm saw to cut the disappearing rabbets.

The directions are very detailed. I wrote them so anyone with reasonable woodworking skills could build the boat, and several early builders had no boatbuilding experience.

Simmons used ringed shank nails to fasten the planks. Usually they were clenched. He used no glue, and his boats loosened up with use. Nelson Silva used stainless sheet metal screws and epoxy, as most builders are doing. THese boats will last even longer, and there are a lot of original Simmons around, all older than 30 years.

The first two builders of the 22 used 90HP Hondas. Both agreed the motors were a problem because of their weight which required putting a lot of counterbalancing weight forward. One said it was too much power, too. The other added some skegs/lifting strakes to realize >40mph speeds.

I much prefer guys who use their names.

David W. Carnell
322 Pages Creek Drive
Wilmington, NC 28411
910-686-4184

Tar Devil

12-04-2002, 06:49 AM

Thanks, Dave, for piping in. I hope you are doing well and have a blessed Holiday season.

I've been scratching my head for two days trying to figure out why "less tumblehome" would negate the need for cutting gains in the laps at the transom. I knew there had to be a better explanation.

New2this, to touch on something MM and Dingo said... are you considering the Simmons because you want to build a Simmons, or do you just want a boat from which to fish? In addition to the boats mentioned by MM, Dingo and others, there's a plethora of boats out there that will do the job and get you on the water quicker. Check out this site... look particularly at the Carolina style dories and also the stitch and glue Center Console designs.
Spira International (http://home1.gte.net/jspira/boatbuilding/)

I'm not suggesting you build any of these boats, nor am I discouraging you from the Simmons. I AM suggesting that you take a step back and read, read, read everything you can get your hands on about boat construction (every type imaginable), surf the 'net to investigate any and all designs available to you, evaluate your means (shop space, tools, materials availability), and the time you'll be able to devote to this project (did you mention that you were in school??).

Then, if you still want to build the Simmons... Go for it!!. I think you can see from Oyster and Dave's input that the boat should be within your capabilities if you look for help from the right people.

Best of luck, and welcome to the real world of the Wooden Boat Forum!!

Later,

Phil Potter
Shelby, NC

[ 12-04-2002, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Tar Devil ]

Bruce Taylor

12-04-2002, 06:56 AM

I much prefer guys who use their names.And thanks for bringing your good one to this discussion, Dave.

Bruce Taylor
279 Wakefield Heights
Wakefield, QC
819-459-1726

On Vacation

12-04-2002, 07:04 AM

Thanks Dave. The conversation started out in general about building a Simmons and escalated into details and specifics that one, that has never experienced both old and new could assertain as being relevent to the boat and its design.

If you take a 15 inch transom height, whether it is the 18 or the 20 footer and install a 20 inch shaft motor on it at its proper height for the cavitation plate and turn it, most peehole discharges will fill the boat up with water. This is not an issue in a transom mounted motor or a conventional design hull.

The Honda we used was a fifty horse four stroke, and runs to the marlin grounds off North Carolina and fishes and returns at a cruise of thirty miles and hour under most conditions. It has a 20 gallon fuel tank mounted in the console. The 40 hp. four stroke Suzuki carried a 12 gallon tank foward with side and bench seating.

Many issues to weights and structural needs in this boat come into play depending on the length and layout you use.

DutchRub

12-04-2002, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Dutchrub:
Ishmael you are correct-there is no bevel needed on the laps and Gardners book is also a good suggestion- some of the earlier Simmons boats had some beveling on the gains in the transom area, but the later boats seemed to lack this feature whichI believe was due to building the transoms with less tumblehome.This and the bottom of the boat not being lapped construction is what I meant by not traditonal lapstrake construction.

As far a a great boat to start with it aint the most complicated to build but it also is a lot more than a simple flat bottomed skiff with minimal frame fitting. Bending the chines in is a bitch no matter how its done. If you dont have experience with this older style with its narrow beam to length ratio with the narrow bottom, sitting on the water anchored can be a bit like being in a canoe as compared to a more stable wide bottomed boat espeacially in the 17 footer which the 18 should more rightly be called. Once your under weigh no problem with the stability.

No plank spiling necessary on this boat if ya follow the plans.

You can safely go to about 40 hp on the 17 and 90 on the 20 footer-these boats do not handle 4 stroke motors well, because of the well ( size restrictions) and the weight of the motor. However a 20 footer can accomodate a 50 or 55 hp 4 stroke and the 17 may accomodate something small-like a 20 or 25hp-turn radius and cowling size should be checked prior to purchase-well size can be made longer and/or wider, but this reduces planing surface and may affect performance.

On Vacation

12-04-2002, 07:52 AM

Posted by Oyster:
"The 20 high side in the issue you speak of has a 90 hp, but the motor is a 20 inch shaft and requires alteration."

Posted by Dave Carnell:
The first two builders of the 22 used 90HP Hondas. Both agreed the motors were a problem because of their weight which required putting a lot of counterbalancing weight forward."
Even on the 22 weight was an issue with a ninety horse motor.

Taken from the issue you quote also:
Page64, top left, second paragraph under the picture of the green Simmons I quote:
Simmons built the motorwells on his boats to various heights above the waterline, depending upon what his customers needed. The Corp of Engineer boat had a well 22 " wide and 22 5/8" long a the top.

This is quoting the building of another boat for a man named Chambers:

I chose to install a longer well in Chambers's boat for a couple of reasons. His old boat had a 34" long well and he had built a casting platform along side of it that I wanted to duplicate. In addition, Chambers had not decided on a motor and I wanted to be sure the well was large enough for whatever motor he might choose.

You seem to read a lot about wooden boat construction. I hope new2this will not be turned off with this boat. Just let us know what your updated requirements are and maybe you can weed through this post and make an educated decision to your specific needs. Carry on Dutchrub.

We all are still looking foward to sharing the sparkles.

[ 12-04-2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

ROWE BOATS

12-04-2002, 04:34 PM

I don't know if this will give me any credibility or not, But i grew up on Wrightsville Beach, knew Mr. Simmons, and took the lines off the last boat he built in 1972. Dave Carnell has referred a number of people to me seeking advice on building a Simmons Skiff. I'll also be teaching a class at the WoodenBoat school on building the 18. Oh yeah I've been building boats professionally for 30 years. I have an 18 which I originally built for an old 25hp Johnson. I bought a new 25hp 4 stroke Yamaha and did need to enlarge the motor well. My skiff will do 30mph with two men and a dog, and that's fast enough. The 18 just isn't designed to go much faster and I would say 30hp should be the max.On the other hand the high sided 20 is a much larger boat, and performs well at higher speed.Of course theres a lot more room in this boat to add goodies = weight. I would put a 50hp at the low end and a 90hp at the top end depending on weight' and of course how fast you want to go.

DutchRub

12-04-2002, 04:44 PM

What Dave Carnell failed to mention in his post is that the 90 hp hondas installed in the 22 footers were 4 stroke motors. As I mentioned in one of my above posts the boats do not handle 4 stroke motors above 50 hp well, due to weight and physical size. The 90 4 stroke by honda weighs a good 150 pounds more than the 2 stroke Yamaha and is physically Much larger.

It never fails to amaze me how little of a post some forumites actually read before piping in and getting offended. And sometimes no matter how many times I read some of the posts here I can make little or no sense of them or what exactly the point is.

Carry on oyster :D

[ 12-04-2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

On Vacation

12-04-2002, 07:45 PM

Thank you Rowe Boats for your reply on both threads. I will send you an e-mail to speak about your days in Wrightville Beach. Maybe we spent some time together and didn't know it. And Dutchrub, I would love to call you to compare some notes on these boats. I will build one for my first grandchild if I can get my youngens to settle down long enough to fall in love, but need some guidance on some refinements to insure a near perfect boat.

new2this

12-04-2002, 07:57 PM

Thanks for the reply Dave,
I am trying to educate myself about these boats. I haven't decided if it's what I want to do or not for sure. Yeah I've looked at some other glue and stich CCs. Maybe they are more appropriate for a beginner, I thought of the Simmons because it's a classic and a good hull. Maybe it's more complicated than it looks.

Dave Carnell

12-05-2002, 06:05 AM

Bending a straight solid piece into a chine was a bitch, even for Simmons. There are several alternatives. The simplest and best seems to be to cut 3/8" plywood to the shape of the bottom edgeof the bottom side plank. Two layers of this bent in place separately and laminated with epoxy makes a strong, effective chine.

new2this

12-05-2002, 01:40 PM

How many sheets of ply, approximately are required to build an 18 footer? Are you saying that you make the chines out of planks of ply as well, or do you use thicker wood? What other dimensional cuts are needed for the frame? I'm trying to get a rough estimate of what the raw materials for the hull would cost. What special tools are needed for construction, since ai don't have a lot of advanced woodworking tools? Dave, I'd appreciate your input here, since you designed the plans, anyone who has actually built a Simmons, however, I'd like to hear from. Thanks,
J.D. Kline
Gainesville, FL

ROWE BOATS

12-05-2002, 07:14 PM

I use 6mm sapele for the bottom , planking, and foredeck. You'll need five sheets. but you'll have some left over. Transom and motorwell will take a sheet of 18mm. I would cover the bottom with a layer of fabric in epoxy. I would use vertical grain fir for the chine and framing. I really don't like the idea of a chine laminated from plywood. It is difficult to bend the chine dry, but steamed or laminated from solid stock works well. I glue and rivet the laps, and that makes for a stronger boat. I really don't like the idea of screwing the laps together. Even if you use 3/8 ply for the planks you're getting very little holding power. The cost of course would depend on your choice of materials, fir ply is cheaper than sapele. Not that they are your only choices. These are great boats, pretty easy to build, and if you do it right your grandchildren will enjoy it years down the road.

DutchRub

12-05-2002, 07:55 PM

Where do you get vertical grain doug fir and how much is it on a bf basis?Or lf? 6mm sounds awful thin to me, even for a 17 footer, but to each his own.

[ 12-05-2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

new2this

12-05-2002, 11:01 PM

So,
For the 17 footer, you need roughly 5 sheets of plywood. What type of solid stock would be ebst to use for the chines? I know nothing about sapele wood. What is it like and what do you think is fair to pay for 4x8x6mm sheets? What do you think is a fair price for 1/4" marine douglas fir? Where do you get the wooden pegs and how are they secured?

On Vacation

12-06-2002, 06:09 AM

Your services in woodenboats are sought worldwide? :confused:
Dutchrub
posted 12-05-2002 08:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do you get vertical grain doug fir and how much is it on a bf basis?Or lf? 6mm sounds awful thin to me, even for a 17 footer, but to each his own.

[ 12-05-2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

There is nothing wrong with laminated plywood for the chimes for the firstime builder. We use Honduras Mahogany for the keel and chime boards. You can laminate this also after ripping it on the front four feet and regluing it in place. Just make sure the cut is somewhat straight when you do this.

Try to use a planer blade on the table saw saw it on a band saw. This is a little tricky if you are not used to doing this. Practice on some pine to check the tracking of the blade through the piece of wood.

The top of your chime board will need to have an angle on it to keep from water gathering against the planking. And the deck boards will sit on it.

DutchRub

12-06-2002, 06:33 AM

Guess I cant ask a question without a snotty reply from the oyster-when I order doug fir I always get a real mix of all kinds -never seem to be able to get more than a piece or two of nice quarter sawn type stuff-does a company sell nothing but vert. grain? Whats the price? Am I supposed to know everything like the oyster? By the way-I wouldnt put as much labor as goes into a simmons and use doug fir-mahogany is a better choice in my opinion- guess thats why Mr Simmons used mahogany too and in his day there was much better quality fir availabale.
The problem with plywood in place of conventional lumber is that there is only 1/2 as much wood oriented in one of two directions-thus it is only 1/2 as stiff thus strong. In the case of the Simmons chiNes however it is probably stiff enough, espeacially if a full length spray rail is laminated over the area on the exterior. I still think 6mm too thin. Use 9mm or 3/8 and forget the glassing.

[ 12-06-2002, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

On Vacation

12-06-2002, 06:40 AM

only 287 suppliers online.
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=%22vertical+grain+fir%22

Tell us where you are and I will point you to the closet supply house.

DutchRub

12-06-2002, 06:46 AM

QB] Posted by oyster

There is nothing wrong with laminated plywood for the chimes for the firstime builder. We use Honduras Mahogany for the keel and chime boards.
The top of your chime board will need to have an angle on it [/QB]OYSTER-

CHINES are what are in a boat.

CHIMES are bells that ring in church.

Just thought ya ought to know. :D

[ 12-06-2002, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Dutchrub ]

On Vacation

12-06-2002, 06:54 AM

FYI:
The board is not big enough to display your mipelling. tongue.gif

I'm soory,-I didn't get youre location-I cna help you if you let us know.

[ 12-06-2002, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

ke7

12-06-2002, 08:22 AM

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Dynamite Payson's books. He also has a website.

Instant Boats (http://instantboats.com)

Didn't mean to disturb your thread, back to lurking :cool:

Sailing-Randy

12-06-2002, 10:10 AM

Alright, I confess, I did not read all that has been written, fine and wonderful stuff I am sure, but using my "find" function I did not see the name "Rabl." Now of course someone may have mis-spelt it, as has happened over time, but "Boatbuilding In Your Own Back Yard" is what I started with. Bought it at a used book store while my family waited outside. We were on vacation and I just knew I had to stop. Took less than ten minutes, but then you have to be someplace in Denver Colorado on vacation with eye out for used book stores

oh man, the bug bit me hard...

BTW, I built Rabl's Teal, 15' skiff, put a deck on it, still have to finish all the trim... :rolleyes:

[ 12-06-2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Sailing-Randy ]

ROWE BOATS

12-08-2002, 05:39 PM

I can get vertical grain fir from Maine Coast Lumber for around 5.50 per bd ft.Mr Simmons built an 18 with 1/4 inch marine ply, and I believe it was fir. He thought it was fine. 6mm Sapele is as strong or stronger than 3/8 fir, and finishes much nicer. If I were not putting fabric and epoxy on the bottom I would probably use 3/8 or 9mm. 6mm Sapele cost me $96. per sheet last time I bought it. If you use laminated ply on the chines, not only do you have half of the laminated timberwith the grain oriented in the wrong direction but you expose a tremendous amount of end grain. Sure, you can fill it with epoxy, but I wouldn't do it that way. CHIMES CHINES On my keyboard the M is right by the N . If you guys start nitpickng me like that, you'll probably run me back out to the shop.