Nominations for best 12' sailing dinghy design [Archive]

keyhavenpotterer

11-30-2009, 08:25 AM

Nominations please for best 12' sailing dinghy design.

Rules:

can be just under or just over 12'

there must be plans available to build

two categories: (1) epoxy clinker plank or strip plank
(2) stitch and tape / glue

My own nomination for the 12' epoxy clinker design is Iain Oughtred's Shearwater. Not sure about the best S&T design though?

I would love to see a superb S&T 12' design put forward.

Brian

Brian

Thorne

11-30-2009, 08:53 AM

"Best" = exactly what? Best looking, best performing, best stable kid's boat, best cruiser/camper, best handling, or ???

You didn't say a thing about oars (or other aux propulsion) only sailing, so a sail and oar boat's sailing performance and safety won't remotely compare to 12' boats designed for pure (or mostly) sailing like Welsford's Truant or Oughtred's Guillemot or Shearwater.

keyhavenpotterer

11-30-2009, 09:27 AM

Surely, best sailing dinghy is not a complicated concept?

Brian

perldog007

11-30-2009, 09:36 AM

Piccup pram

DGentry

11-30-2009, 10:11 AM

Clearly, the best sailing dinghy, at just under 12', is the foiling Moth.

Hands down, this is the winner. Absolutely no other 12' dinghy sails nearly as well - not even close.

Here are some S&G plans: http://www.moth.asn.au/download/building_ply_skiff_moth.pdf

Of course, if "the best" actually turns out to be a complicated concept, then the Moth might not be the best 12' dinghy . . . except at sailing, of course.

I do appreciate the thought behind the thread, though!
Dave

htom

11-30-2009, 10:23 AM

Marco Polo Pram.

"Best sailing dinghy" has a lot of possible interpetations.

keyhavenpotterer

11-30-2009, 10:44 AM

keyhavenpotterer

11-30-2009, 10:48 AM

Paul Gartside's Riff, as a strip plank contender, pulls at my heartstrings!

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/136running-bw.jpg

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

11-30-2009, 10:48 AM

Paul Gartside's Riff, as a strip plank contender, pulls at my heartstrings!

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/136running-bw.jpg

Brian

Cuyahoga Chuck

11-30-2009, 11:06 AM

The C-12 by Jacques Mertens.

http://www.bateau.com/images/boatpics/C12_profile_350.JPG
Specifications:
LOA: 11' 11"- 3,63 m
Max. Beam: 5' 3"- 1,60 m
Hull weight: 135 lbs.- 54 kg
Sail area: 77 sq.ft. -7.2 m2
Material: Stitch and Glue

I saw this
http://www.bateau.com/boats/C12/slides/C12_undersail.html
when I first started sailing and it could boogie in almost any air.
Designed with a centerboard but there's an optional dagger.

JDRSnipe

11-30-2009, 11:08 AM

openboater

11-30-2009, 11:11 AM

now is that :

best (pause) sailing dingy
or
best sailing (pause) dingy ?

in the AARP class I would say Bolgers Oldshoe for those of us with bad knees in search of a 12' COMFORTABLE dingy as the best (pause) sailing dingy.

but for the best sailing (pause) dingy, I would say it would be Archie Bunkers wife, cause we all know she was a little "dingy".

aldebaran

11-30-2009, 11:48 AM

Its a complicated one. Length just say one thing: length. What about breadth, weight etc, sail rig etc..
I like the one I designed myself and which I´m building right now.
Of the ones from a well known designer, I like Welsfords Janette and this one, Vivier´s Morbic 12:
http://vivierboats.com/albumsen/morbic_12/premiers_bords/pict0119_1.jpg

David G

11-30-2009, 11:58 AM

"Best" mmmmm....

not fastest
not lightest
not cheapest

I think "best" means - in this context - the design which has stolen the heart of the person who nominates the design. They know they have to, sometime in the future, build the design. Or better still have already.

If it helps, best means best for me, a 59 year old experienced sailor. Perhaps not a foiling moth!

Brian

Uh Oh... now you've stepped in it :p

You know as well as any that "best" depends upon the criteria. So far, we have: best for a 59 year old, experienced sailor. Not a very comprehensive design brief.

Strictly single-handed, or sometimes with a passenger or two?

What waters? Lotsa shallows, or nothing but deep? Protected? How protected?

What style of sailing? Full-tilt, wring it out... or "don't make me set my beer down"?

What sort of gear to be carried? Water bottle? Picnic lunch? Camping gear for a long weekend?

All of your requirements, assumptions, and local conditions may be well-known to you... but we haven't a clue. Or... as my estimable twin once noted - in a moment of drunken clarity - "If they won't effin' tell us what they're lookin' for, we can't make intelligent effin' suggestions, now can we?"

keyhavenpotterer

11-30-2009, 12:03 PM

My vote would be for X-Class frostbite dinghy design by John Alden, Design 0561, classic 11'-6" lapstrake racing dinghy with high quality construction, design now available through Niels Helleberg Yacht Design, Salem MA 01970

And very nice she is too

http://www.aldendesigns.com/dories-dinghies-tenders/images/0561-1lg.jpg

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

11-30-2009, 12:15 PM

Uh Oh... now you've stepped in it :p

You know as well as any that "best" depends upon the criteria. So far, we have: best for a 59 year old, experienced sailor. Not a very comprehensive design brief.

Strictly single-handed, or sometimes with a passenger or two?

What waters? Lotsa shallows, or nothing but deep? Protected? How protected?

What style of sailing? Full-tilt, wring it out... or "don't make me set my beer down"?

What sort of gear to be carried? Water bottle? Picnic lunch? Camping gear for a long weekend?

All of your requirements, assumptions, and local conditions may be well-known to you... but we haven't a clue. Or... as my estimable twin once noted - in a moment of drunken clarity - "If they won't effin' tell us what they're lookin' for, we can't make intelligent effin' suggestions, now can we?"

Ok, Ok phew...

single handed, perhaps one day a grandchild might come along......

Waters - strongly tidal, very bad wind over tide conditions, Western Solent in the UK.

here's a recent trip across the Solent to Yarmouth, through the harbour and up to the head of the river. Typical light winds up the Yar, but blowing 15 knots wind against tide back across the Solent to Keyhaven. Good concentration needed in the short steep seas.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/3998807632/in/set-72157622431684741/

Sailing - has to have responsive performance- joyful light tiller, a boat that responds. Sunday club racing and Solent pottering. Some camping, probably in a tent on the shore.

I thought all this was obvious!!

Brian

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

11-30-2009, 12:17 PM

Surely, best sailing dinghy is not a complicated concept?

Brian

Hmmmmmm.

Swallow, Amazon - or a Nat 12?

Robert Meyer

11-30-2009, 07:03 PM

I really like the Sand Dollar designed by Arch Davis. Simple to build, rows well and sails well - though not quite 12ft.
http://www.archdavisdesigns.com/sand1.JPG
I also like the Heidi skiff by Richard Kolin. Each time I read the building manual she grows more beautiful.
http://www.nwboatschool.org/content/boat/image/tmp5833.jpg

johnw

11-30-2009, 07:31 PM

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Qk62rRa2hGc/SmX3dfr4O9I/AAAAAAAAA_k/R2aWOhnJXiM/s400/Top-8.jpg
Uffa Fox's frostbite dinghy.

Steve Paskey

12-01-2009, 07:36 PM

For stitch and tape, I like Paul Fisher's 12'6" Northumbrian Coble.
www.selway-fisher.com/Cobles.htm#THU

Wiley Baggins

12-01-2009, 08:37 PM

Uffa Fox's frostbite dinghy.

Since johnw has gone the route of spirit rather than letter (UTILITY is lovely, carvel planked, and undoubtedly amenable to strip planking), I'll offer a traditionally constructed, hard chine, plywood boat that could be converted to stitch-and-glue. Take a look at Bob Baker's TERN.

http://www.by-the-sea.com/bakerboatworks/pdf/dinghies.pdf

One caveat, she's only ten feet long, although she carries the same beam as the Alden 'X' and she's rated for three children or two adults. She might be a bit tight with much camping gear.

Clinton B Chase

12-01-2009, 09:13 PM

The Uffa Fox boats 12' and Gartside's Riff.

That was too easy Brian!

keyhavenpotterer

12-02-2009, 01:23 AM

The Uffa Fox boats 12' and Gartside's Riff.

That was too easy Brian!

Ok,Ok. Please keep them coming. It's your 12' "best" I am so interested in. And please include hard chine designs, in fact any construction I guess. It's great to see other's dream small sailing boats.

Bob Baker's 10' Tern looks very sweet.

There must be a real beauty of a S&T 12' out there some where.

Brian

aldebaran

12-02-2009, 02:20 AM

Selway Fisher has a lot of Stich and glue. (I´m sure you know.

Here you have two:

Cegall 11
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cegallp2.jpghttp://www.selway-fisher.com/Cegallp4.jpg

And Stornoway 12:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Storn12d1.gifhttp://www.selway-fisher.com/Storn12p1.jpg

keyhavenpotterer

12-02-2009, 03:10 AM

Yes, Paul has even drawn up plans for my beloved Scow class. These are sailed at many Solent harbours. Mind you, this was drawn as a replacement for an old clinker Scow and has a rather old fashioned set of foils.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/South_Coast_Scow.gif

My son has a set of these plans and is very tempted to build a lightweight epoxy clinker version and show the heavy GRP versions a clean pair of heels!

The latest Keyhaven Scow, having been breathed on by the famous Rogers family ( of Contessa 32 fame) now has very efficient high aspect foils, plus a very unusual standing lug.

Brian

aldebaran

12-02-2009, 03:38 AM

Yeah, I know your passion for Scows:)

Whats the special thing about the rig that they use nowadays

keyhavenpotterer

12-02-2009, 06:35 AM

Well it starts with the boom end being fixed to the mast. That means the normal downhaul cannot be used to tension the luff. So the yard is raised on a 2:1 purchase. This is a lot less than the 6:1 downhaul used on our Scows.

Having just been to a winter club talk given by John Claridge who builds the Lymington Scow and Pete Sanders who makes the sails, I learnt that the Christchurch Scows are even using 32:1 on their downhauls!

Pete explained the Rogers sail uses a downhaul from the front of the yard, down through the sail luff to a tackle by the foot of the mast. They are also using a preventer at the front of the yard to hold it close to the mast.

Quite unusual really. Will see if I can try the rig next season.

Brian

Steve Paskey

12-02-2009, 06:42 AM

There must be a real beauty of a S&T 12' out there some where.

I haven't seen anything better than the Selway-Fisher designs already posted here. The problem, I think, is that S&T designs tend to go for wider panels and fewer chines. I can't think of anyone other than Paul Fisher who's doing S&T with 5 or 6 panels a side.

What is it about the Stornaway 12 that doesn't do it for you? I think it's quite a nice boat for S&T.

The Pygmy Boats Wineglass Wherry is also very nice, but it's 14 feet and a kit boat only ... no plans.

http://www.pygmyboats.com/images/2_038.jpg

keyhavenpotterer

12-02-2009, 07:25 AM

I haven't seen anything better than the Selway-Fisher designs already posted here. The problem, I think, is that S&T designs tend to go for wider panels and fewer chines. I can't think of anyone other than Paul Fisher who's doing S&T with 5 or 6 panels a side.

What is it about the Stornaway 12 that doesn't do it for you? I think it's quite a nice boat for S&T.

Not sure. She is very nice, possibly too close to my favourite - Iain Oughtred's Shearwater, but as you point out pretty good for S&T.

I think my favourite, for some reason in the S&T construction is Campion Boats Apple 13.

http://www.campionboats.co.uk/assets/images/apple13studysailplanalt2ct.jpg

http://www.campionboats.co.uk/assets/images/a5papple13constrprofile9bt10cutsm.gif

Brian

Daniel Noyes

12-02-2009, 10:18 AM

Two nominations

lapstrake (glued ply or traditional plank)

Chamberlain 13.5' dory skiff (plans in JohnGardners "the Dory Book"
a 150++ yr old historic design from the newengland seacoast, this skiff is the most capable and versatile hull for it's lenght I have ever encountered, bar none. I have been using this hull for comercial fishing part time, and have brought in over 2,000$ in catch this season in the 13' sail and oar skiff.
The boat rows well enough that I have rowed it in several local rowing races placing well and I regularly sail the boat passing larger cruising sail boat types and easily besting the 2+ mph current in our narrow tidal river.

stitch and glue (single chine sharpie type hull)

Not a nomination, I chose this boat as the winner about 18 yrs. ago and haven't regretted it.
I was looking for a hull easy enough for a 14 yr old to build but with the lines and look of a sandbagger racing sloop/cat. the hull has beautifull lines and is a ver quick sailer
Im breaking the rules in that plans are not available but if someone would like to build her for themselves feel free to stop by the shop and make templates of the hull pannels.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/194/491933020_2831403fa8.jpg?v=1178847505http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/491955377_a1ea22f5f5_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/491955377/in/set-72157600194362439/)
Here are a few photos of Bagger, sailing video of 12' skiff at
http://www.youtube.com/user/danoyes1#p/u/45/8QxzD29cQ8o (http://www.youtube.com/user/danoyes1#p/u/45/8QxzD29cQ8o)
http://www.youtube.com/user/danoyes1#p/u/47/FB- (http://www.youtube.com/user/danoyes1#p/u/47/FB-qLtFz4LE)

Dan

keyhavenpotterer

12-02-2009, 11:58 AM

Dan, all I can say is wow!! What a beautiful little sailing boat, such elegance from such simplicity. Thanks for posting and sharing the videos.

Is Clint any whwere near you? A bit too far for me to pop round!

She would be perfect for sailing in Keyhaven Salt Marshes. My best sail of the year was a friend and I chasing each other for hours around the salt marshes, whooping with joy!

See the videos immediately reminded me of the Duck Punts which race on the east coast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zk_1k6hInM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCLSxSl6_yk

Thanks also for the Dory nomination.

Brian

Clinton B Chase

12-02-2009, 12:43 PM

Yes, Brian, I sailed his Bagger = downright scary. You need to be very confident with ones sailing skills and keen with weight placement.

I really like John Brooks' Ellen

http://www.brooksboatsdesigns.com/New_designs.html

Steve Paskey

12-02-2009, 04:28 PM

Brian: Speaking of 12-foot sailing dinghys, have you ever sailed a Cormorant, the 12-foot fiberglass catboat designed by Roger Dongray and built by Cornish Crabbers? I used to have one and liked it very much, except for the task of putting up that monstrous telephone-pole of a mast.

Though the fiberglass version has been out of production for years, a redesigned version of the boat is available as a kit:
http://seashellboats.co.uk/cormorant-dinghy/

Foster Price

12-02-2009, 04:29 PM

How about this one, - John Brookes "Sunburst", they are still very popular here becuase of their ability to multi-task, rowable, will plane with a bit of breeze, and ghost well too.

"In 1963, the NZ Weekly News published a John Brooke design for a general purpose dinghy - a boat that was easy to build and fun to sail. This was the forerunner of the Sunburst. 227 plans sold in the first year. In October 1964, Wakatere Boating Club adopted the Sunburst as its third Class and wrote to AYA to seek approval to sponsor the Sunburst Class and maintain a register. WBC built a Sunburst mould which was available for hire.

It's a two person boat with Main, Jib and Spinnaker (with pole) around 3.5 metres long. Built to class specfications, a good false floor Sunburst is ideal for racing in Wellington conditions. We have them out in 30 knots+ . We love them at WBBC - they have stood the test of time".

See http://www.sunburst.org.nz/

Daniel Noyes

12-02-2009, 06:14 PM

See the videos immediately reminded me of the Duck Punts which race on the east coast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zk_1k6hInM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCLSxSl6_yk

Brian

Stunning, absoutely beautifull!
WB mag might do well to look at those for next yrs. Small boats special edition.
and like the vid title says so simple.
I like the sailing up over the rapids bit

I'm just south of Clint, North shore of Ma. like he says the boat is tippy, it has little initial stability as the bottom is only 2' wide, but firms up as the rail gets near the water, a bit like riding a bike, once you get the feel it's easy, I can stand up and sail in it without drama. If you are really interested in the hull lines PM me, Ill take some measurements for you.
Dan

sirgordy

12-02-2009, 06:33 PM

Check out the Spindrift.
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/yachtt3.htm

Hwyl

12-02-2009, 07:01 PM

Cherub

http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/pic750/2678-20030928b.jpg

This discussion is now closed

DGentry

12-02-2009, 07:53 PM

Cherub

Nice, but so slow and clunky next to a Moth . . . .

http://www.moth-sailing.org/img/news/2009/guiRide.jpg

Wiley Baggins

12-02-2009, 08:17 PM

...please include...any construction I guess...

Brian

Well, now you've gone and done it! :) Maybe this will be the small boat sailors' version of the "Prettiest Boat Under 30-feet."

Here's one closer to home, the Hamble Star - http://www.erithyachtclub.org.uk/NS-Stars/HambleStar.php

ShagRock

12-02-2009, 10:45 PM

The AxeOne..not a real nomination I suppose because getting plans may take some doing. It certainly looks nice to my eye. It may not be the fastest, but it would likely stand up to a bit of rough water. The construction is clinker in various woods, so glued lap should be possible. The original design is vanished and has 12 planks per side. Bottom 4 of elm, 10 of mahogany, and top strake of ash...might get a prize for looks anyway:)

http://www.littlestorping.co.uk/axe/wp-content/photos/sailing_aug_06_093.jpg

http://www.axeonedesign.com/

keyhavenpotterer

12-03-2009, 11:45 AM

Brian: Speaking of 12-foot sailing dinghys, have you ever sailed a Cormorant, the 12-foot fiberglass catboat designed by Roger Dongray and built by Cornish Crabbers?

Hi Steve, no have never sailed one yet. A friend has one and he sails it all over the western Solent including out to the Needles. As you say, a quite substantial boat and rig. I think all the fittings were from the larger Cornish Crabber boats.

Richard, my pal with the Cormorant, has had some problems with rudder/tiller braking, so he now never sails with a spare on board. He also owns a lovely Acorn 15 with sailing rig.

What a great thread! So nice to see people's favourite 12' dinghies from around the world. It's just such a good size for a dinghy. The Sunburst looks such a well balanced around stout little dinghy, has to right to build the following it has.

If I move more to the west, an Axe one design would be the business.

Now than - who has pictures or drawings by the master, a 12' design by Herreshoff?

Please keep your favourite 12'ers coming.

Brian

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

12-03-2009, 11:52 AM

http://www.sailing.org/images/news/08_PG_PR_24M_fleet_360.jpg ????

keyhavenpotterer

12-03-2009, 12:07 PM

"Building the Herreshoff Dinghy"

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ycgOPZgBL._SS500_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Herreshoff-Dinghy-Manufacturers-Maritime/dp/0913372331

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-03-2009, 12:19 PM

How about this?

http://www.cantierisantorsola.it/Foto_dinghy02.jpg

http://www.cantierisantorsola.it/inglese/Dinghy12.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc8VgUNPf-c

http://www.12footdinghy.org/default.htm

in wood

http://www.12footdinghy.org/images/adverts/big/NED728.jpg

http://www.12footdinghy.org/images/monthlyPic/2009/paulBaumler.jpg

Brian

C. Ross

12-03-2009, 12:21 PM

This thread deserves it's sticky. Good debate about "best" but all of these are "fabulous". All small sailing dinghies are sweet and sexy.

hm0316

12-03-2009, 02:15 PM

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400043.jpg

Ian Oughtred's Acorn Skiff--my nomination for prettiest. hm0316

johnw

12-03-2009, 02:44 PM

Here's Uffa Fox's thinking about what makes a good dinghy in this size:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nk8rslI53jcC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=fox+utility+%26+fay&source=bl&ots=qg0Y3UTADc&sig=OdfgV0CIfJ7yHIkmB2T-kbqnsvM&hl=en&ei=1iIYS9aHIJTQtAPK0dSuDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=fox%20utility%20%26%20fay&f=false

johnw

12-03-2009, 02:48 PM

Of course, the Penguin is easier to build than Utility & Fay, and has many of the virtues Fox mentions.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeocqeq/Photoalbum/Internationals2006/inter_HPIM0787.JPG

keyhavenpotterer

12-03-2009, 04:39 PM

More Duck Punt pictures. I have managed to contact the fleet and they are keen to establish other fleets so they can go on safaris!

http://www.mersearegatta.org.uk/Cobmarsh_files/093.jpg

http://www.mersearegatta.org.uk/Cobmarsh_files/124.jpg

http://www.mersearegatta.org.uk/Cobmarsh_files/742.jpg

Pictures from West Mersea Town Regatta 2009

Brian

frank pedersen

12-03-2009, 07:27 PM

As long as you are just looking, check out the National 12 web site: www.national12.org. For a good overview of recent designs, try www.national12.org/class/class.shtml. For some action, try http://www.youtube.com/watch?V=aJNuox54Nzc. (I hope I got all those entries correct.)

Frank

frank pedersen

12-03-2009, 07:31 PM

There is an extra "." at the beginning of the youtube entry.

frank pedersen

12-03-2009, 07:34 PM

O.K., now I might know how the "Edit" entry works as I took out the extra ".".

frank pedersen

12-03-2009, 07:38 PM

I give up. I tried to get the address correct, but when I click it something else turns up.

keyhavenpotterer

12-03-2009, 09:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJNuox54Nzc

very very tippy, lovely things though. Will nosedive when hard pressed - I've seen it!

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-04-2009, 02:20 PM

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400043.jpg

Ian Oughtred's Acorn Skiff--my nomination for prettiest. hm0316

Agree, and if it was best 12' "oar and sail" dinghy there would be nothing to discuss. A beauty indeed.

here are two racing flat out at this years Bursledon Regatta, practically above hull speed.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_a6mAYyc8sBI/SpmD3S6O6dI/AAAAAAAAM64/jJrnTU29sYs/s1600/DSCF2996.JPG

Picture courtesy of Chris Partridge's RowingforPleasure blog.

http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com/

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-04-2009, 02:31 PM

Of course, the Penguin is easier to build than Utility & Fay, and has many of the virtues Fox mentions.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeocqeq/Photoalbum/Internationals2006/inter_HPIM0787.JPG

Penguin is not known here in the UK but as a Rhodes design it has to be good. A new one was built and this is what a young crew who took her out said -

"They couldn't believe that such an old design was so fast, so exciting." The bow, the relatively flat bottom and the beam bear strong resemblance to hull shapes of modern racers.

"That Phil Rhodes knew what he was doing. This boat has speed and it has beauty."

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/Boatbuilders/Penguin2.jpg

http://sailboatdata.com/imagehelper.asp?FILE_id=741

http://sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=3167

Is says there were 10,000 built!

Perhaps this is the best 12' all round sailing dinghy?

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeocqeq/Photoalbum/Internationals2006/inter_HPIM0610.JPG

Brian

johnw

12-04-2009, 03:33 PM

Penguins were much used in junior sailing programs here until the Laser came along. The Penguin was a much more adaptable boat, and a useful tender. Slower, though.

Sailing Dreams

12-04-2009, 06:40 PM

Best - who knows, one of my favorites is Coot by Wolstenholme
http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/dinghies/coot.gif

http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/dinghies/coot.gif
She's more than a little like the Gartside Rif mentioned above. I'm slightly biased having owned a Roger Dongrey designed Cornish Cormorant for years, sadly she doesn't qualify as she's GRP and no plans available - but the simplicity of the single high peaked gaff and for sailing enjoyment is hard to beat.
http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/cat-boats.html

keyhavenpotterer

12-04-2009, 10:01 PM

I have had the good fortune to own and sail a Coot built by a Master Craftsman, John Kerr. A really lovely dinghy, Andrew Wolstenholme draws just about the sweetest sheerlines of all the designers. She is quite small though for the open Solent, famous for it's rough wind against tide conditions. This is Andrew's own boat.

http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/gallery/cootcr.jpg

I guess his 12' Mallard should well be counted in this roll of Best 12' dinghies.

http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/dinghies/mallard.gif

http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/dinghies/mallard_image.pdf

http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/dinghies/mallard_info.pdf

Brian

rbgarr

12-04-2009, 10:17 PM

Bob Baker's North Shore Dinghy: http://www.by-the-sea.com/bakerboatworks/

See dinghies-1.pdf

Sailing Dreams

12-05-2009, 08:34 AM

I have had the good fortune to own and sail a Coot built by a Master Craftsman, John Kerr. A really lovely dinghy, Andrew Wolstenholme draws just about the sweetest sheerlines of all the designers. She is quite small though for the open Solent, famous for it's rough wind against tide conditions. This is Andrew's own boat.

I guess his 12' Mallard should well be counted in this roll of Best 12' dinghies.

http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/dinghies/mallard_image.pdf

http://www.wolstenholmedesign.com/images/dinghies/mallard_info.pdf

Brian Ahh Brian - that will be nominations for the best 12' sailing dinghy suitable for the open Solent, famous for it's rough wind against tide conditions.

Only kidding - which is why I keep the Cormorant - crossing back from Yarmouth to Lymington those nasty little shark tooth overfalls are to be avoided

I'm still campaiging for "Coot is cute"

keyhavenpotterer

12-05-2009, 09:12 AM

keyhavenpotterer

12-05-2009, 12:00 PM

If the prize were minimalist elegance then I feel sure the Truc 12 would have to take the prize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHl2r5rRtzw&feature=related

http://www.crusyacht.it/im/caract/caratt3.jpg

No plans though!!

Brian

Daniel Noyes

12-05-2009, 01:21 PM

Classic Moth still raced in US
http://www.mothboat.com/CMBA/index.htm

http://www.mothboat.com/CMBA/Gallery/28-BYC.jpg

johnw

12-05-2009, 01:33 PM

"Coot is cute" - Absolutely. No campaigning needed - she wins cutest title!!

Now back Penguin -

interesting shroud bracing.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeocqeq/rig1.jpg

Are original plans available? ( Later found they are available from the class for $50. )

Has anyone re-engineered and updated the build for epoxy S&G construction?

Brian
I'm not sure S&G would work with the arc bottom. Ideally, you'd be building more than one, so the moulds would become a basis for series production.

Hwyl

12-05-2009, 03:50 PM

Nice, but so slow and clunky next to a Moth . . . .

http://www.moth-sailing.org/img/news/2009/guiRide.jpg

I concede. I looked up the PY's 800 for the foiling moth and 920 for the Cherub, that's significantly faster. I tried to arrange for a sail in/on one fo the Puma ones last year, but age discrimination came into play (I coulda whupped their butts).

paminch

12-05-2009, 04:14 PM

Classic Moth still raced in US
http://www.mothboat.com/CMBA/index.htm

http://www.mothboat.com/CMBA/Gallery/28-BYC.jpg

More on the Classic Moth (as well as other Moth related stories) can be found over here;

http://earwigoagin.blogspot.com/search/label/Classic%20Moth

keyhavenpotterer

12-05-2009, 04:22 PM

The Classic British Moth is also sailed locally at Salterns Sailing Club, a protected water in the salt marshes. John Claridge, just this winter, is producing new moulds and making a batch of 6, some GRP but some wooden ones as well. The first "mould" is a female one which the shaped panels are dropped into.

http://www.britishmoth.co.uk/images/home_fleet.jpg

Brian

Howard Sharp

12-05-2009, 10:48 PM

This is my Oughtred "Guillemot", launched in '95. Iain later changed the design, flattening the sheer and renaming it. Mainly sailed on the Hudson and Adirondack lakes, here seen on the Pamet river near Truro on Cape Cod. She's a bit small on the Hudson, which can quickly develop a short steep chop, not to say huge powerboat wakes, but she's wonderful on small lakes and rivers.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2766/4162196772_4729e9cdaf.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2766/4162196488_2168bf26fc.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4161438525_a24a9e1ccf.jpg

keyhavenpotterer

12-06-2009, 12:25 PM

Terrific pictures Howard, and yes a very worthy entrant for "Best" 12' dinghy, especially if sail and oar is required more than just sail, when perhaps the Shearwater comes more into play.

As an all round dinghy it must be a very high on any small dinghy short list. I have not sailed the Guillemot but have sailed and rowed Iain's slightly larger 13'6" Tammie Norrie.

Now, if we were searching for the perfect mid 13' sail and oar dinghy - we would need look no further than the Tammie Norrie. A wonderful design, particularly special in that Iain really did combine first class sailing and rowing ability, and almost impossible combination. And just so pretty. So perfect!

I guess Iain's Guillemot is also just so well balanced.

Brian

hm0316

12-06-2009, 01:11 PM

I have not previously seen an Oughtred "Guillemot". It is very handsome and appears to have greater freeboard and length than the Acorn skiff. Do you have the specifications and the name of the redesigned version? hm0316

keyhavenpotterer

12-06-2009, 02:21 PM

It seems to be still listed as Guillemot

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/Guillemot.pdf

and here's a build blog

http://lapstrakedinghy.blogspot.com/

Brian

Howard Sharp

12-06-2009, 02:31 PM

Sorry I got it backwards in my memory; the boat I built was a Ptarmigan, which is now called Guillemot (the ptarmigan is a small land bird, bit like a grouse). Tammie Norrie is a stretched Guillemot, and Iain is supposedly designing a longer, 16' version, called Penny Fee. They all share the wineglass transom. I always thought one of the best things about the 11'6" Ptarmigan was the boomless sail - in a small boat like that it's great not having to duck for the boom. And very simple to set up and sail off a trailer.

keyhavenpotterer

12-06-2009, 04:34 PM

How interesting that the Penguin class can be built as a self rescue design witha false floor which drains out of the transom.

http://www.p385.com/Bailey/images/Penguin/Penguin.Plywood3.jpg

Brian

johnw

12-06-2009, 04:35 PM

I'd not heard of self-rescuing penguins. I assume there's a weight penalty?

JC 72

12-06-2009, 05:34 PM

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 02:07 AM

I'd not heard of self-rescuing penguins. I assume there's a weight penalty?

We really need an expert on Penguins to join us on the forum. In the build blog there are frames early on and then these frames seem to disappear when the double floor goes in as in the picture and below.

http://www.p385.com/Bailey/images/Penguin/Penguin.Framing4.jpg

http://www.p385.com/Bailey/images/Penguin/Penguin.Launch.Floating1.jpg

http://www.p385.com/Bailey/penguin.html

Bristol Seacraft have recently built a superb example, and the frames are still there on this single floor version.

http://www.bristolseacraft.com/files/Penguin%201%20small.jpg

http://www.bristolseacraft.com/files/DSC_0034.JPG

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 02:11 AM

What rbgarr said, Bob Baker North Shore dinghy. Woodenboat issue no.1. Maybe someone has the images from issue one, as I only have a photocopy issue. Here is ours on the beach minus a sail rig.

Is this one under sail? I think this is the Hvalsoe 13

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1410/534587914_3ae09e8e37_o.jpg

What a beauty!

This is the North Shore

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/239/520352124_889c9a98bf.jpg

Brian

aldebaran

12-07-2009, 04:05 AM

There´s a tendency in this thread to focus a lot on multiple plank lapstrake/clinker building.I personally dont think that a lot of strakes make a boat prettyer. Very often on the contrary. You can build a very nice hull using 4- 6 strakes and in my eyes, the fewer strakes make the lines "tighter"
3 strake faerings and 4 strake Oughtred doubleenders are amongst the prettiest boats out there.
Funny enough, I also like very much a good hard chine design. A good example is the OK dinghy. Nowadays mostly in glassfibre, but they were originally made in plywood. Its an extremely well sailing racing dinghy.
http://www.okdinghy.co.uk/gallery/2nat9/2nat91.jpg
http://www.okdinghy.co.uk/dev/boatlist_pics/Photo0160.jpg

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 05:09 AM

Funny enough, I also like very much a good hard chine design. A good example is the OK dinghy.

Yes, it would be terrific to find an 12' elegant hard chine design. At 14' the GP looks slightly boxy on dry land but very nice on the water. At 12' I think Penguin is one of the best so far.

The OK dinghy was the very first dinghy I ever owned. I raced her at a high Pennine reservoir, nothing between us and the USA to slow the wind down. Just look how low that boom is. It used to terrify me gybing, I would crouch in fear in th bottom of the cockpit. And this was the boat that introduced me to the chinese gybe, boom a little too far forward in strong winds and she capsized in an instant almost trapping me underneath legs all wrapped up in mainsheet.

A colleague had his head split open by the boom gybing. It looked just like a meat clever had been used. He never sailed the boat again without a canoeing helmet!

Mmmm... back to our search and whilst we have a number of clinker designs, who can put forward the best single chine design?

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 06:33 AM

Here in the UK, Ian Proctor is held as probably one of two, the other being Jack Holt, of our top dinghy designers, with over 70 designs to his name. late in his career he designed the SigneT dinghy -

http://www.impartweb.co.uk/signet/gallery/images/large/Photo_Gallery_files_image030.jpg

In Ian Proctor's own words, the 12'5" SigneT is "another extremely simple construction, in which the edge of one component panel gives curvature to its neighbouring panel. It can be built from scratch or prefabricated kits of parts, full size plans of every component and detailed building instructions being available. In this construction the panels are joined by gluing and screwing into a longitudinal member called a chine stringer. The chine stringers (and keel and bilge rubbers) are first fastened to the bottom panel of the hull (flat bottomed); the buoyancy tank faces are then fastened to these stringers, their lower edges forcing the bottom panel into a curve. Transverse bulkheads are added, and a small longitudinal bulkhead aft and simple framework forward completes the curvature of the bottom, which is reinforced by the lower edge of the centreboard casing. The hull is virtually shaped before the sides and decking are added, and all joints are extremely simple to make as there are none with changing bevels (angles). An extremely robust hull results."

Here's a build blog

http://www.paul.stanistreet.btinternet.co.uk/signet.htm

The build is a little unusual

flat bottom, add keel then buoyancy tank sides

http://www.paul.stanistreet.btinternet.co.uk/signet/stbld4sm.JPG

then centrecase

http://www.paul.stanistreet.btinternet.co.uk/signet/stbld10sm.JPG

then hull sides

http://www.paul.stanistreet.btinternet.co.uk/signet/stbld11sm.JPG

results in 1500 lbs of built in buoyancy!

http://www.fyneboatkits.co.uk/signet/signet/paint3sm.JPG

Brian

Steve Paskey

12-07-2009, 06:41 AM

Mmmm... back to our search and whilst we have a number of clinker designs, who can put forward the best single chine design?

Edson Schock did a nice little 11'-6" v-bottomed sailing dinghy called "Wee Nip." The plans are in an old book called "How to Build Small Boats." Unfortunately, I don't have a scanner and can't find anything online.

rbgarr

12-07-2009, 06:46 AM

Chine you say?

Bob Baker again. The Westport Skiff for rowing, the Westport (aka 'Wetsport' :D) Sharpie for sailing: http://www.by-the-sea.com/bakerboatworks/

Or my usual hobby horse ;), the Cotuit Skiff:

http://i50.tinypic.com/qodpa9.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/s2hdex.jpg

The skipper is holding the mainsheet with one hand, the coaming with the other (to stay aboard) and steering with his foot hooked under the tiller (no tiller extensions allowed). He's looking under the boom for other boats that may be approaching.

That's just "the way they roll!"

The crew is ballast and someone to talk to. :D:D

JC 72

12-07-2009, 09:08 AM

Hey Brian, That is a shot of our North Shore when she was new. I had never seen that image before. Where is that shot taken? Do you have a high rez?
Of course Eric Hvalsoe's 13 is a beauty too, perhaps more versitile than others.

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 09:45 AM

It's actually from this thread on the WBF

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78739&highlight=tender

There are so many lovely 12' dinghies coming up in this thread my head is spinning......

Brian

Eric Hvalsoe

12-07-2009, 10:45 AM

Is this one under sail? I think this is the Hvalsoe 13

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1410/534587914_3ae09e8e37_o.jpg

What a beauty!

This is the North Shore

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/239/520352124_889c9a98bf.jpg

Brian

Allright, I just can't stop myself - I'll put the Hvalsoe 13 up against any traditional combo boat of similiar size, any day. In particular I will put it up against the comparably sized Acorn, which I believe is a more delicate and slack bilged model. That edges it a wee bit towards the rowing side of things. The HV 13 is a more robust design to reach either end of the sailing/rowing spectrum.

This picture of the Northshore Dinghy, designed by Bob Baker, was taken at The Center For Wooden Boats sometime after construction by my boatbuilding students. It is also a drop dead gorgeous design. Arguably tilted towards a sailing application with its very substancial beam, but you know - the current owner loves to row this boat. So there you go. I believe the image is on my web site (http://hvalsoe-boats.com/), my flickr page or both, although I did not take the picture.

There are many fine non round bottom 'combo' choices available.
Although I could argue that a well designed round bottom hull is the eptimone, it will not be the preferred choice, or the best choice for all.

JC 72

12-07-2009, 12:47 PM

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 01:19 PM

You know, we need a Herreshoff here. Does anybody have details, pictures or know where plans can be sourced for his 11 1/2' dinghy shown in "Sensible Cruising Designs" ( not the Columbia tender)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_fbcfUhcwruA/Sx1Kh8dQSzI/AAAAAAAAAMs/yKfugopophc/s640/Herreshoff%20dinghies%20in%20Sensible%20Cruising%2 0Designs%20008.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_fbcfUhcwruA/Sx1KmPTeEHI/AAAAAAAAAMw/LylkNJQf358/s512/Herreshoff%20dinghies%20in%20Sensible%20Cruising%2 0Designs%20009.jpg

Brian

johnw

12-07-2009, 03:15 PM

Mystic Seaport has L. Francis Herreshoff's plans. It was his father that designed the Columbia type.

Looks like that boat was designed for the Frostbite rule, like the Penguin and Utiliuty & Fay. Must have been a great rule.

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 03:59 PM

Thanks John.

This Francis Herreshoff 11.5ft dinghy is listed at Mystic Seaport in the Francis Herreshoff Collection:

http://library.mysticseaport.org/manuscripts/coll/spcoll038.cfm

Does anyone have a picture of one?

Many of the worlds best designers seemed to have built dinghies for this frostbite design.

Uffa fox designed two dinghies to this frostbite rule also: the 'Squall' and the 'Utility'.

Plans are available here:

http://www.uffafox.com/squall.htm.

Looks quite ahead of its time with a very high aspect centreboard.

and http://www.uffafox.com/utility.htm.

johnw

12-07-2009, 04:09 PM

I prefer Fox's earlier design for the Frostbite rule, which had more freeboard.

http://www.uffafox.com/utility.jpgUtility & Fay

http://www.uffafox.com/runt.jpgRunt & Squall

keyhavenpotterer

12-07-2009, 04:48 PM

I agree. The Uffa Fox Squall's freeboard looks for flatter water and that long foil for pointing high in these conditions. The centrecase is heavily braced fore and aft as if he expected it.

The Bigfella

12-07-2009, 07:07 PM

No contest.... the Kittycat, designed in the late '50's by Jim Young

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/iansecond/kittykatsmall.jpg

CapnJ2ds

12-08-2009, 04:51 AM

This thread is fraudulent!

It's just an excuse to entice out of the woodwork lots of pictures and plans of wonderful small craft.

I think it's marvellous! Keep'em coming!

Eric Hvalsoe

12-08-2009, 10:13 AM

You go Eric. The only reason I'm happy rowing is because I need to get off the stick and have you draw the sprit rig that Bob Baker was going to do as a third alternative before his passing back in 1983.
I didn't know yeadon was holding out on me with pictures of our boat from before we purchased her. Got any More?

Actually, I think I did take the picture of the North Shore at the Center, or, was it Tim? Now I can't remember, the image goes back a few years. Where did the original poster snag it - my Flickr site?

I just noticed that this thread started out as best 12' sailing dinghy, not best sail and oar dinghy, which is a subset in itself.
One of the elements to balance between sailing and rowing is the tracking and directional stability desirable for rowing vs the maneurvabilty (crisp tacks) and minimum wetted surface asked of a performance sailboat. The most obvious feature distinguishing the two goals is a skeg, or lack thereoff. No skegs on Uffa's Frostbite series. From either perspective this is a good thread about people's passions.

johnw

12-08-2009, 12:19 PM

keyhavenpotterer

12-08-2009, 03:10 PM

JohnW are there any available "Rules" for the Frostbite designs?

Looking at the far upper end of performance, our UK National12, this interesting build PDF shows how they currently build these lightweight flyers in ply.

http://www.national12.org/private.shtml#building_guides

and click on "Building in Wood"

The file is too large to attach (3mb)

Brian

johnw

12-08-2009, 04:08 PM

As far as I know, there was only one Frostbite rule. Minimum weight, if I recall correctly, was 150.5 lb., max sail area was 72 square feet, length could be no more than 11.5 feet. The spars had to fit in the boat, which is why the Penguin has a two-piece mast. So, a little lighter, slightly shorter, about 20 sq. ft. less sail.

Eric Hvalsoe

12-08-2009, 05:19 PM

Frostbite dinghies were intended to be used as tenders, which is why Rhodes gave his a skeg for good directional stability while towing. Fox's reputation depended more on racing success, which I imagine is why he omitted the skeg.

Sorry, I'm being really sloppy in my references - I better look at the Frostbite series again. You've made a related point about the skeg. I was thinking about those racy Fox designs.

johnw

12-08-2009, 05:44 PM

Here's the rule, and some of Fox's comments on Utility & Fay:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nk8rslI53jcC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=sailing,+seamanship+fox+utility+%26+fay&source=bl&ots=qg1P_OWyvf&sig=jTdDS2-fvHUFYVnPqUKkyXYhJQM&hl=en&ei=OeQeS5-NKIH-sQP_zezyCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

keyhavenpotterer

12-09-2009, 12:20 AM

Johnw, thanks for that. What a nice rule, and what fun it would be to design new boats to it.

Interesting that the requirements to sail, row and tow well lead to such a fast dinghy in strong winds.

Our local Scows were also designed as tenders to the large yachts which anchored off Lymington River, before the River was dredged. They too had to have spars which stowed in the hull. Shame our Scows did not also have the planing ability!

Brian

johnw

12-09-2009, 12:41 AM

There is some argument about whether a Penguin will plane. It will when you tow it, which important in a tender.

Peter Belenky

12-09-2009, 10:57 AM

The original ad hoc frostbite dinghy assembly diverged into several classes for racing. Class A (with the skegs) had to row, and the spars had to stow inboard. Class B was more of a racer. Then one-designs evolved, including the 10' Class D Dyer Dink, the Alden X class, the BO, the plywood Penguin, the Interclub, etc. If you go to the Interclub Dinghy site there are a few historical articles.

http://www.interclub.org/index.php

johnw

12-09-2009, 12:59 PM

The Penguin was originally designed for batten seam construction in 1/4 in. mahogany. It caught on when marine plywood became available and the design proved suitable for the new material.

Daniel Noyes

12-09-2009, 06:49 PM

Are there frost bite class rules around somewhere? be interesting to see the forces shaping the class boats

keyhavenpotterer

12-10-2009, 04:03 AM

Johnw posted the link

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nk8rslI53jcC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=sailing,+seamanship+fox+utility+%26+fay&source=bl&ots=qg1P_OWyvf&sig=jTdDS2-fvHUFYVnPqUKkyXYhJQM&hl=en&ei=OeQeS5-NKIH-sQP_zezyCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Whilst looking at the designs of Alden X-Class Frostbite design, I noticed this rather nice design simply called 12' Dinghy.

http://www.aldendesigns.com/dories-dinghies-tenders/images/0542-1lg.jpg

http://www.aldendesigns.com/dories-dinghies-tenders/images/0542-3lg.jpg

Very sweet, quite beamy, quite a nice upturned nose like my Scow, reminds me a bit of the Cornish Cormorant from our Bursleden Blogger.

http://www.thetrailersailercentre.co.uk/userimages/boats/cc%20crmbs1.JPG

http://www.aldendesigns.com/dories-dinghies-tenders/d0542.html

Brian

Swidm

12-10-2009, 08:50 AM

My nomination for best under 12' sailing dinghy is the....drumroll....next boat I am going to build! So far I have built six sub 12' sailing dingies of which I am happy with, in different ways, four of them.

1) There is Gavin Atkin's Mouseboat which is a great 8' paddling and sailing boat with wonderful stability and good V bottom performance for adults and kids alike.
2) Bateau.com's C12 which I have modified past recognition to create "Little Gem" pictured below with all the brightwork. This boat wins in my little fleet for carrying capacity and has been made into a great beach cruiser with the addition of a sleeping platform and dodger. Currently, she is getting another mast-step so I can rig her with a bowsprit and jib for a little more performance particularly low wind but choppy days.
3) My own interpretation of a 12' dory which rows and sails with 2 people onboard and works as a great tender to my bigger boat even serving to take my whole family of 4 to shore at Ft. Pickens in Florida. Enough room to sleep inside though I would beach her first.
4) My newest creation of an open-transom speedster which a flat deck for sleeping on...again onshore. Still working on the rig for this boat.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/swidm/Florida%20120%202009/IMGP1015.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/swidm/Nickajack%202008/IMGP0767.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/swidm/Nickajack%202008/IMGP0770.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/swidm/Knot%20Yacht/ABCD0003.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/swidm/Knot%20Yacht/pdr175.jpg http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userpics/12812/IMG_2906.JPG

Clinton B Chase

12-10-2009, 09:28 AM

Eric Risch here in West Gardner, Maine has a great just-under-12' dinghy called the Echo Bay Dory Skiff. GREAT boat. Rowed it sailed it built it a number of times. Highly recommended. See pictures here:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2372822&postcount=41

She'd be very fast with a standing lugsail or a larger Sprit but I'd want a quick to reef sail, so lug is best. She goes very smoothly through the water, you'd never know there was a flat bottom. When it is time to row, she is a lot of fun to row. This is a rough water boat. The designer, Eric, has done some crossings to islands offshore here in Maine and been in a squall with the boat. Very capable and easy on the eyes, and quick to build, which I appreciate in a boat more and more.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e8d98f5c2d.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

keyhavenpotterer

12-10-2009, 09:36 AM

Echo Bay Dory Skiff
thanks Clint.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2702/4069701743_757d8997e5_b.jpg

Brian

Eric Hvalsoe

12-10-2009, 08:04 PM

Nice link John, I'll take a longer look. Hey when I checked in this time there was a pop up for "12 foot dinghy club" or some such thing - am I missing something? 12 feet is a great length with lots of possibilities.

keyhavenpotterer

12-11-2009, 03:49 AM

12 feet is a great length with lots of possibilities.

My own Scow class, can illustrate just what's possible. Now I am afraid they are currently grp hulls, but they were clinker and plans are now available in epoxy clinker ply as referred to before from Selway Fisher.

These little boats are so endemic on the South Coast of the UK, one wonders what do all the other 50+ years olds race and teach their grandchildren in!

So here is a montage

Christchurch Scows, 70 Scows in their dinghy park

http://www.christchurchsailingclub.co.uk/images/Sailing%20escort%20duty2.jpg

Lymington Scows, John started around 1985 at No 200 and is now well into 400+ numbers. There were 44 boats at last years National Championships.

http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/photos/LYMINGTON-SCOW-NATIONA/1P7180163.jpg

Here I am pottering from Keyhaven to Yarmouth and up the river Yar.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2421/3998052521_39706624dc_b.jpg

Pictures of the trip here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/3998807632/in/set-72157622431684741/

Across the Solent the Yarmouth Scows like some colour

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3454/3912369973_afd796ab1b.jpg

and the Beaulieu Scows have the best hull, so the new Lymington Scows was based on it

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2550/3952871666_3d5cbfd1c6.jpg

and further west, at Bosham, the Chichester Scows have a champagne party every time a new boat joins the fleet, which is now up to 70 boats having started in 2000.

http://www.flightmarine.net/3scows.jpg

So, that's a lot of sailors having a great time and passing skills onto their grand kids.

Brian

Candyfloss

12-11-2009, 08:18 PM

Only 10ft 6, but a lovely little hard-chine dinghy.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018525/379426869.jpg

Flying Ant by Kiwi John Spenser.

Sailed very competitively in Aus. Not so much in NZ.

Daniel Noyes

12-11-2009, 10:11 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2550/3952871666_3d5cbfd1c6.jpg

and further west, at Bosham, the Chichester Scows

Wow I would swear that was a photo on the Essex river Ma.
gues thats why they called it New England... Is Newbury England any where near you guys?

Newbury Ma.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2610/3882378165_a5a2652d33_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/3882378165/in/set-72157608651860941/)
yes thats a New England stone wall in the back ground at the edge of marsh and woods, and some bird boxes, we have these nasty biting flies called green heads that swarm during the summer
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2782/4167574786_b30fd9a664_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/4167574786/)
Dan

keyhavenpotterer

12-12-2009, 03:28 AM

Hi Dan, Newbury is just an hour north of us. Very nice place.

Swallow Boats designed a very sweet 12' dinghy called the Trooper, but it is only available as a kit, but would be a very nice build if plans alone were made available.

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/images/stories/swallowboats/trooper12/sailing/DSCF2686c.jpg

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/images/stories/swallowboats/trooper12/6G.jpg

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/128/

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-12-2009, 04:24 AM

Steve Paskey

12-12-2009, 04:56 AM

The other new 12' design is the Cornish Cormorant, by Roger Dongray and Seashell Boats, again no plans but such a boat from plans could be really good. ...
This 12' dinghy is a bit "bigger" than the Trouper and looks like it would make a super dinghy cruiser. What would be nearest with plans available. A smaller Welsford Navigator?

Welsford's Houdini is 13'2"with a beam of 5'10". Scaled down by 8%, the hull would be quite close, but with fewer chines.

Sailing Dreams

12-12-2009, 05:27 AM

Selway Fisher's Petit Brise at 12'4' makes a very nice yacht tender something I hadn't realised when I first saw one - she just looked like a pretty, capable and really useful dinghy

Max

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/petit-brise.html

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Pb12p2.jpg
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Pb12d1.gif

Eric Hvalsoe

12-13-2009, 10:17 AM

The other new 12' design is the Cornish Cormorant, by Roger Dongray and Seashell Boats, again no plans but such a boat from plans could be really good. Possibly Vivier's plans are closest. Roger has a nack of designing boats which appeal to people and sell well. His 19' Cornish Shrimper is now at over 700 sold.

This 12' dinghy is a bit "bigger" than the Trouper and looks like it would make a super dinghy cruiser. What would be nearest with plans available. A smaller Welsford Navigator?

http://seashellboats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Cormorant3.gif

http://seashellboats.co.uk/cormorant-dinghy/

Brian

This is a refreshing antidote to the agonizing thread RE Carl Cramer's rant against overpriced GRP dinghies. There you'd think the world was coming to an end. Here you seem to be portraying a healthy sailing dinghy population with good sized fleets and skills being passed on to newer generations. Admittedly Carl's thread is to some degree about marketing, wood vs grp.

keyhavenpotterer

12-13-2009, 11:27 AM

The Mirror Dinghy Class is now over 70,000 sail number. It's a great boat and a huge majority of UK sailors began their sailing in one. Yet even this class has allowed things to get out of control.

Wooden kits are still available at £1500, but they now allow GRP boats produced by the finest dinghy builders in the UK. The price? £4800. This is just like the Optimist. If you want to race, then this latest super fast version will be essential. It seems wrong to me, but the Class makes it's own rules. The super keen minority I guess.

However, to me at least, this leaves a huge marketing hole that needs filling, as long as people still feel like building!

Our Scows prove 50+ year old's still like to race as long as the boat is a bit more forgiving than they may have raced when younger. However Scows are also very expensive.

I did however at a recent show, meet a number of sailors of this age who built a Mirror in their youth, carried on through bigger dinghies and yachts, but now with the kids gone and wife not so keen, were looking for something to build again. So, they have the time and money - just what is needed! Traditional looks appeal too.

Could we work up a 12' ply lug rig design. Like the PDR guys an open class but quite restricted to keep it fun.

So, 12' like a Scow but a bit more performance, (ie planing before a force 7!), but not too much.
Lug rig about 70 sq ft.
Mast no longer than hull.
Hull single chine ( the GP 14 is a very popular dinghy and is good looking on the water)
Build from plans or self jigging kit.

A new version for new materials of the Frostbite class if you would.

I can picture it in my head, very frustrating. Like the SigneT with a straight stem more traditional looks and lug rig. Perhaps a 12' Goat is closer. Iain Oughtred after all races a 29er skiff. He might be tempted if asked. And others.

Would need a restriction on minimum waterline beam to avoid all the designs ending up as lug rigged National 12's, Cherubs or foiling Moths!

Brian

Wiley Baggins

12-14-2009, 01:29 AM

Uffa Fox drew a "Junior Redwing" somewhere in the vicinity of 12-feet plus, but I don't see it online anywhere. I think it had a low aspect sloop rig. The design might be worth looking at if the folks at http://www.uffafox.com/ have it tucked away somewhere.

Steve Paskey

12-14-2009, 11:03 AM

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Gifford Jackson's lovely, v-bottomed Marisol Skiff. Plans and book available from WB. The book on building her is a treasure, with wonderful drawings and many interesting ideas.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400013a.gif

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/thearts/bornman/marisol/IMGP2850.jpg

Steve Paskey

12-14-2009, 11:17 AM

Could we work up a 12' ply lug rig design. Like the PDR guys an open class but quite restricted to keep it fun.

So, 12' like a Scow but a bit more performance, (ie planing before a force 7!), but not too much.
Lug rig about 70 sq ft.
Mast no longer than hull.
Hull single chine ( the GP 14 is a very popular dinghy and is good looking on the water)
Build from plans or self jigging kit.

A new version for new materials of the Frostbite class if you would.

That's a grand idea. Would love to see someone come up with a design and plans. I've been intrigued by the comradery of the PDR crowd, but the boat doesn't much appeal to me.

keyhavenpotterer

12-14-2009, 11:20 AM

Nice You tube launch here of a Marisol Skiff. Quite deep sided. Need to get past 4 minutes to the launch though!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtrP6jXlAk0

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-14-2009, 12:07 PM

That's a grand idea. Would love to see someone come up with a design and plans. I've been intrigued by the comradery of the PDR crowd, but the boat doesn't much appeal to me.

Thanks Steve. Just by chance the "Rant" seems to have come to the same conclusion.

So a 12' lug rig simple build.
Rules?
Sheet and a half of plywood long
Only allowed X number of sheets - would that be 4?
Central flat floor panel and two strakes per side.
Minimum width for central panel. Max and min for gunnel beam
70 ish sq ft of sail.

Group of 3 designers develop and publish the rules. Storer for the Southern Hemisphere, Oughtred for Europe and you choose for the USA!

Then we need the men already ranting about costly boats at Wooden Boat to do something and have a competition. All entries which meet the class rules would be winners.

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

12-15-2009, 03:58 AM

It seems very sterile to try to define a boat in restrictive numbers. Perhaps a "Best" design has to be defined by what it brings to the sailor.
Thinking about our Scows, they bring so much to many older sailors,

companionship
fun and safe racing well into their late seventies
endless technical learning
a boat to teach grandchildren
a boat to lend to your adult kids whose busy lives allow just the two week summer holiday sailing
aesthetic pleasure of the design
joy of sailing in lovely surroundings

Perhaps the design competition could ask for these deliverables and the designers do the numbers.

Brian

MattL

12-17-2009, 07:55 PM

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/swidm/Knot%20Yacht/pdr175.jpg

What is that round sail in the back? Is the skipper behind the sail?

All the boats presented so far are terrific, I think choosing best would be an impossible task. Thanks for all the great photos and comments.

Terry Haines

12-17-2009, 09:50 PM

If numbers count more than esthetics then it has to be the Optimist and the PDRacer. Of course, my all-time favorite TV show was "Never mind the quality, feel the width" ...

Terry Haines

12-17-2009, 10:07 PM

I know, I know, but imagine getting nearly 4 hundred people to actually build one ...

Sailing Dreams

12-18-2009, 01:54 AM

I posted some of my favorites from the thread on my blog -

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/wet-saturday-afternoon.html

and got a reply from Patrick about the Lynaes Dinghy

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/lynaes-dinghy.html

well worth having a look at his flickr site

max

keyhavenpotterer

12-18-2009, 03:13 AM

Some pictures of the building of a 15' Lynaes dinghy here

http://vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/index.php?id=1277&L=1

It seems this little dinghy from 1820 was so sea worthy it became the father to the later famous rescue boats.

http://vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/typo3temp/pics/a7494c14ec.jpg

http://vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/typo3temp/pics/77c88cfabd.jpg

http://vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/typo3temp/pics/e0ea8e5cf4.jpg

What a beauty!

Brian

Steve Paskey

12-18-2009, 12:22 PM

It's a bit over 12 feet -- 12'10" to be precise -- but I'd include Joel White's Pooduck Skiff in this discussion. And it's a shame there isn't a 12-foot version of Joel's 9'7" Martha's Tender. (The MT has a v-bottom and a single chine.)
.

http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/david77/pooduck1.jpg

Steve Paskey

12-18-2009, 12:24 PM

I know, I know, but imagine getting nearly 4 hundred people to actually build one ...

For anyone who's confused about this, Terry's referring to a post I deleted noting that 393 hull numbers have been issued for the PDRacer. All things considered, that's impressive!

Incidentally, according to the class web site, the Opti fleet numbers over 130,000.

keyhavenpotterer

12-18-2009, 01:24 PM

Thank's Steve for including Joel White's Pooduck Skiff. I love his work, my most favourite of all designs being Lala.

Clint also likes his Shellback at 11'2". Quote "I have sailed the boat in up to 25 kts without reefing and can ghost along in a zephyr. Quite a fun little boat." Just what this thread is about.

http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/resources/Twist+sailing.jpg

http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/8.html

Brian

Clinton B Chase

12-18-2009, 02:30 PM

That shot was on Squam Lake in NH in a cove protected from the very breezy main lake. I love sailing my Shellback, using it primarily for sailing these days. The ri

AnalogKid

12-21-2009, 08:11 PM

I'm not saying it's the best, but when I came to ask myself this question, I chose the Rhum by Paul Fisher (http://www.selway-fisher.com/Other1013.htm#RHUM). As designed it's 11'6", but I intend to increase the plotting lines from 305mm to 320mm spacing, and it'll come out pretty much bang on 12'.

For me, its all about compromises. I need a boat that's small enough to store. One that can be rowed, motored or sailed. One that can be operated in a semi-sheltered harbour or towed to other beaches or lakes on occasion. I want to learn to sail in it and fish from it. And it would be nice to have a good looking boat as well.

For the sailing experience, I was keen on the gunter rig with jib, so I can practice all the skills I'll need for a bigger boat should I ever be in the position to put a keeler on a mooring. I may also try it with a free standing balanced lug rig as a quickly rigged alternative for an after-work sail in the summer. The double chine shallow V hull seems to me to be a good compromise between the single chined, easily built stitch and tape boats ad the more graceful ply lapstrake boats that would take too long to build. Yes I want to build my own boat, but I also want to sail it.

Cheers,
Andy.

P.S. I don't think I've seen one boat on this thread that I wouldn't happily own.

fish948

12-22-2009, 04:23 AM

joel whites pooduck skiff 12ft 8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEBACCkI-g

Clinton B Chase

12-23-2009, 07:47 AM

Good call...that video shows off the Pooduck nicely...a better boat for getting family aboard...but cartopping becomes tougher.

Looks like the mast is nice and stiff even with the chute up!

lvergara

12-23-2009, 02:12 PM

...I like the sound track on that video, no ... music, just the wind and water....

keyhavenpotterer

01-06-2010, 04:49 AM

Just a thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread which has been a real pleasure to follow. We found many lovely epoxy clinker dinghies but never quite found that very special hard chine design. As a final post and suggestion:

no one from Aus posted the Gwen 12, yet what I read are stories of great affection and even that Iain Oughtred designed and campaigned a national Championship boat in his early years. This design, along with the Cherub seems to have been an important milestone in the eveoution of the lightweight modern dinghy.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f32/114981d1251616809-gwen-12-gwen12.jpg

Brian

Clip

01-08-2010, 11:07 PM

Loved building and sailing my Selway Fisher Coble,
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4067/4242217135_e31dec5645_o.jpg

Steve Paskey

01-09-2010, 12:08 PM

Two more designs that are worthy of mention in this thread:

First, John Welsford's "Golden Bay dinghy," a 12'9" single-chined design with a lug sail:
www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/goldenbaysetnet/index.htm

Second, Harry Bryan's "Daisy," a 12'6" dory-skiff designed for construction in lapstrake cedar (no plywood):

www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/daisyplan.html

Here's a photo of Daisy ..

http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/images/plans/5.daisy12.6.jpg

dks71

01-15-2010, 10:57 AM

Thanks all for posting these great designs and pictures. I would just like to offer a hearty handshake to keyhavenpotter for posting a picture with wooden boats and a green mohawk!

LongIslandBoy

01-20-2010, 09:28 AM

Gotta agree with Clint re Joel White's Shellback. Great little boat

Clinton B Chase

01-20-2010, 09:39 AM

There is actually a little bit of a one-design thing going on with the Shellback. Last year, in Brooklin, was the first (hopefully annual) Shellback Nationals! There is a thread here on the subject.

I think the Shellback is great but when it comes to performance sailing it is not going to go like, say, a Gartside Riff, a true sailing dinghy. The Shellback is more of a sail-and-oar 12-footer (actually 11'2" footer). But, as I look out my window at my Shellback under about 2' of snow (just from the last two days!) I look forward to sailing it more than anything.

Cheers,
Clint

Clinton B Chase

01-20-2010, 09:41 AM

James McMullen

01-20-2010, 10:01 AM

Alas, I find 12' to be an awkward size for me: too big to make a convenient, stowable ship-to-shore dinghy, too cramped, slow and unseaworthy for serious open boat cruising. My two choices have boiled down to a 9' pram for the dinghy--the biggest I can fit on deck, and my 20' Rowan for a beachable yet seaworthy open sailboat than can fit a couple of people and gear for a week easy, yet still a blast to sail solo.

My favorite 12' sailboat I ever built was the Bolger Instant Catboat, but it too has its flaws--not being much for rowing home when the wind fails especially.

12' is a hard size for my useage. Why did you settle on this particular length?

keyhavenpotterer

01-20-2010, 11:58 AM

With such a long list of wonderful 12' designs preceding your post James, perhaps this thread illustrates that 12' is a really popular size.

Bigger than a 9' tender, which I have and love dearly - perfect tender size - and smaller than your needs for "serious open boat cruising" 12' just makes a great day sailing size for a keen sailor who sails alone, or with less experienced crew or grandchildren.

For me it's to do with the human scale. My 90kg can keep on top of the boat choose what happens. It cannot bite me, or give me a hard time, it's not too big if it blows up.

I have raced and sailed my 11'6" Scows for eight years in everything that has come along, yet when I sail a bigger dinghy such as the Oughtred Gannet I owned, I found I would not use her if the forecast was bad, reefing is such a hassle. Being overpowered is horrible and can trap you and bite you on the bum!

By the way James, do you know anyone who has built a Gannet?

Brian

Clinton B Chase

01-20-2010, 01:45 PM

I think 12' is also a great messabout size, knocking around small areas in decent weather. I also think when in a class, it'd be a great one-design size. Beam is a huge factor James....have you seen a Gartside Riff. That is a big 12'er.

James McMullen

01-20-2010, 03:23 PM

I know that 12 footers are popular--I've built several myself including several that have already been mentioned here: Bolger Catboat, a Bolger Cartopper, a couple of Bolger Teals, a Chamberlain dory-skiff, the Catspaw dinghy/Columbia Lifeboat tender, two CLC Sassafrass 12 canoes. . . .plus my bro built a Shellback that I've spent quite a few hours in.

Every boat is a compromise. A 12-footer is an in-between size. What I'm saying is that the compromises of a 12-footer haven't seemed to work out for the best for myself in my own situation right now, so I was wondering what the circumstances were why the OP was particularly interested in this size? Everything from kayaks to rowboats seem to be mo' betta when you stretch 'em out to at least 16' from my experience, so I was wondering if there was a particular storage requirement or something for why the focus on 12'.

Clinton B Chase

01-20-2010, 09:00 PM

Cartoppability would be a big one...the Shellback, John Brooks' Ellen -- which would make a great one designer -- and others have a beam good enough for cartopping about 4 1/2'. For rowboats, a cartopper means you really don't go vary fast because you need length but not beam, but for a sailing dinghy, like Riff, put a nice big sail on there with some beam and you can have a boat for a Dad and 2 kids to go out and still be able to store it without huge space requirements, carry it around easily (because these 12 footers are not going to weight too much) and maybe cartop it if the rack is wide enough and/or the beam is not too much. So, I would say handling on land is hugely a plus. Once you are above 12' and certainly 14' it gets difficult fast to move them around on dry land.

Steve Paskey

01-20-2010, 09:49 PM

James McMullen

01-21-2010, 09:53 AM

Cartoppability? Okay, I can see that. But if you were going to use a trailer instead of a car rack, I think you wouldn't want to keep it as short as 12'

Clinton B Chase

01-25-2010, 09:39 PM

avole

01-26-2010, 11:34 AM

I'm a complete novice buy I'd have to nominate a dinghy not normally found outside Australia, the 125. Fast, carries 2 crew, can be fitted with a trapeze if required. Not the easiest to build if you want to make the optimum 50kg weight, but the association and its members are extremely helpful, especially for someone building one on the other side of the globe.

Details at www.125assoc.com

keyhavenpotterer

01-26-2010, 12:23 PM

Thanks avole. Looks a great little dinghy. Nice to see lots of options for building and a low build weight. Any build from S+T with panel shapes provided to local hire on a mould tool to make your own foam boat - all patterns supplied. Sounds like a very active and progressive association.

Rather sweet promo video from 1985 here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kxm7m3IrdU

make sure yiou keep going to 4 minutes - super quick S+T build.

Brian

keyhavenpotterer

02-03-2010, 02:55 AM

There is one very nice dinghy design that was lurking in the back of my memory until this morning when I re-found Antonio Dias's book Designer & Client in my book collection.

The design is called "Small" and is a very nice 13' dinghy. She was developed in conjunction with Jenny Bennet, an Editor of WoodenBoat magazine no less.

http://www.boatbldr.com/images/small05.jpg

I was very taken with this design when I purchased Antonio's book some years ago and corresponded with him about the boat and if her hull mould could be somehow shipped to the UK!

http://www.boatbldr.com/images/small06.jpg

More pictures here

http://www.boatbldr.com/boats/small.html

Statistics:

L.O.A.: 4.27 m
L.W.L.: 4.2 m
Beam: 1.8 m
Draft (board up): 17.8 cm
Draft (board down): 91.4 cm
Displacement: 296 Kg (includes boat and crew weight to float at 17.8 cm)
Kilos per 25.4 mm immersion: 89.4 Kg
Sail area: 8.87 sq. meters
Specifications

Hull: 6mm Marine Mahogany Plywood
Transom: Cherry or Mahogany
Seats and deck: Pine, Cherry or Mahogany
Spray rails: Spruce/hardwood lamination
Floor boards: Basswood
Seat and quarter knees: Natural grown crooks
Hardware: Bronze fittings and J.M. Reineck blocks

Brian

Clinton B Chase

02-04-2010, 08:13 PM

The search ends here: Vivier's Morbic 12 is something to behold.

http://tinyurl.com/morbic12

Clint

seo

02-04-2010, 10:05 PM

The best 12' yacht tender/sailing dinghy I've ever used is a Beverly Dinghy. Designed by Sidney DeWolfe Herreshoff, built by Cape Cod Shipbuilding in glass. I have seen wooden ones, don't know if plans are available. These boats sail well, maneuverable and reasonably seaworthy, row well, motor well, tow beautifully. Pretty heavy to hoist aboard...

Clinton B Chase

02-05-2010, 07:40 AM

Hi Clint: Sounds like a great little boat. I meant to ask whether plans are available.

Yes, give me an email.

Clint

Steve Paskey

03-11-2010, 09:23 PM

Bump. One more. I'm surprised that no one mentioned this, and I forgot about it until I was looking through a list of Iain Oughtred's plans ...

Iain has a 12' flat-bottomed sailing skiff called "Spike". Looks like a nice little boat, but I've never seen pictures, only the drawings. (Spike is his name for the revised version of the boat; the original was called "Pike.")

The original here:
www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Pike

And details on the modifications here:
www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/ioupdate06.htm#PIKE

Here's a drawing of the original. On the new version, the stem is straight, the sheer is a bit stronger, and there's more rake to the transom. (Also, the daggerboard is raked aft, and the board will kick back if it encounters an obstruction.)

http://www.bootbouwer.nl/oughtredill/pike-Z.jpg

Ed Armstrong

03-12-2010, 11:08 AM

I've just skimmed this thread, so didn't read all the responses, but I didn't see a recommendation for a Melonseed, which I believe can be built in a 13-foot version:

http://www.melonseed.com/assets/images/acadia08v1.jpg

I haven't owned or sailed one, but I've heard they're a blast to sail, and they are certainly beautiful. I enjoy rowing and sailing my Acorn dinghy, but it's only 10-feet, so is smaller than the designs being considered:

http://www.directcon.net/edarmstrong/Wrights_Lake_5_sm.jpg

Ed

dalekidd

03-16-2010, 11:40 AM

I like the looks of that Echo Bay Dory Skiff. How can I get the plans?

keyhavenpotterer

04-01-2010, 06:03 AM

This Gartside 12' dinghy for sale looks like the Riff design.

Utterly beautiful.

http://www.ladyben.com/SearchResultsFull.asp?VesselID=1636

http://www.ladyben.com/boats/1950_1636_lg_01.jpg

http://www.ladyben.com/boats/1950_1636_lg_02.jpg

http://www.ladyben.com/boats/1950_1636_lg_04.jpg

Brian

Steve Paskey

04-01-2010, 06:36 AM

This Gartside 12' dinghy for sale looks like the Riff design.

Utterly beautiful.

http://www.ladyben.com/SearchResultsFull.asp?VesselID=1636

Very nice. The problem with the Lady Ben web site, though, is that ads seem to stay posted there long after the boat has been sold. I know of one boat still listed there -- a 1935 Peterborough rowboat near Rochester, NY -- that was sold six months ago.

Clinton B Chase

04-01-2010, 10:15 PM

That is not riff...not flat enough aft. I think it is one of Paul's clinker dinghies.

My favorite 12-footer again.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m463/clintonbchase/Morbic3.jpg

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m463/clintonbchase/Morbic2.jpg

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m463/clintonbchase/Morbic1.jpg

Vivier's Morbic 12

Songololo

04-02-2010, 05:12 AM

Sailor

04-02-2010, 07:13 PM

I skimmed through the thread and didn't see the Catspaw. I know she's a little over 12 but she is under 13 so..... Am I the only one?

sailboy3

04-02-2010, 07:16 PM

Was wondering that too... I'm building one.

mp29k

05-10-2010, 04:06 PM

Not to head this thread off in a different direction, but a few comments on the Morbic 12...

She seems to be a nice modern equivalent of a 'Swallows and Amazons' type boat for minimalistic camp-cruising.

What I like:

seems fairly straight forward to build (build jig?)
open interior with minimal ribs/frames
onboard sleeping potential
dry stowage/built in flotation
hull weight

Small modifications I'd make:

mast partner with a gate (not the hole) and deck cleats/thole pins for halyard and downhaul
have aft floorboards double as sleeping platform (would need cleats around sternsheets and thwart)
oar stowage (space for 1 or 2 pair?) flush or below floorboards
offset, larger fore bulkhead
side deck hatch covers positioned further aft

Ques:

does one need to use the eggbox building jig or can one use section molds set up on a strongback?
how robust would the rudder pin slot arrangement be in the long term?
Could she be transported (inverted?) on a small general purpose trailer i.e. the ones that have a roof rack arrangement?

I have been taking to Mr. Vivier, and he seems initially up for the idea of increasing the LOA to around 13'. I love this design, but the 12' feels limiting to me since I am 6'1" and 235.

I would also move the location of the hatch covers, and use a larger rectangular cover to allow for easier stowage. I also am curious about the oar stowage, and would like to add floorboards as well.

This boat has 2 rig options, the one in the photos above, and a Lug Sloop with the standing lug moved back and the addition of a bow spirit + 1.8 square meter jib. The 2 sail layout is interesting to me, but Mr. Vivier says it will not balance under the standing lug alone in the sloop version, and adding a second mast strep would increase the complexity.

I think the 13' version would be perfect, and might make sleeping aboard even more viable.

coucal

05-24-2010, 07:53 PM

I have a super soft spot for the Sabre - an Australian 12' cat-rigged racing dinghy.
Not a big sail area (hard to keep up with the skinny crews on light-air days) but when the 15-25kt south-westerlies came in from Bass Strait, she'd just take off and surf - all that additional belly weight became gofast racing gear... Plenty of fun, plenty of swims.

Take a look at some of the fantastic heavy weather photos from the Sabre association website here (http://www.sabre.org.au/).. Not everybody's idea of the perfect day's sailing, but fun can take a lot of forms!

More photos here (http://www.sabre.org.au/photo_gallery.html)...

Mine (sadly sold-on now) was a home-buit stitch and glue boat with varnished decks and orange hull - colour scheme stolen from a Wianno Senior seen on the cover of WB some years ago.

In some ways the philosophical difference between a sabre and one of the beautiful lapstrake boats on this thread is actually quite small: At 12' simplicity is everything; it's just that there's more than one way to achieve it. Vive la difference!

doyle007

06-04-2010, 04:09 PM

What a fantastic thread. I've really enjoyed reading it, and will go back again because I know that I missed some points that were made (I was too excited to concentrate much on the text, as I could always see the top of another picture from another post that hurried me along).

I have to say, that Cherub skiff looks like a winner, along with the Australian 125. I'd love to bring both of them to my area, and get some fleets going, but the lack of interest in skiff racing around my way is disheartening.

Great stuff guys. I thoroughly enjoyed spending the last hour on this thread.

Here are some more shots of the Cherub.
http://www.nickcoleman.org/blog/images/cherub2.jpg

http://www.nickcoleman.org/blog/images/cherub.jpg

T. Traddles

09-11-2010, 05:03 PM

Tom Dunderdale's (Campion Sail and Design) IO.

http://i51.tinypic.com/f1chi1.jpg

Daniel Noyes

09-11-2010, 05:44 PM

What a fantastic thread. I've really enjoyed reading it, and will go back again because I know that I missed some points that were made (I was too excited to concentrate much on the text, as I could always see the top of another picture from another post that hurried me along).

I have to say, that Cherub skiff looks like a winner, along with the Australian 125. I'd love to bring both of them to my area, and get some fleets going, but the lack of interest in skiff racing around my way is disheartening.

Great stuff guys. I thoroughly enjoyed spending the last hour on this thread.

" lack of interest in skiff racing around my way "

There's a reason... E scow, think of it as 2 1/2 dingies (2 1/2 the excitment, speed, etc.) for about the same price as a dinghy!

Here's one from Tom's River N.J.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSF6hnk_6J0&feature=related

'nuff said :)

great thread

Songololo

09-20-2010, 01:03 PM

This thread needs an SOF design ... even though the original poster specified glued lap and S&T.

What about the Geodesic Classic 12 (http://www.gaboats.com/boats/classic12.html):

Specifications
LOA: 12' Weight: 30 lbs. Beam: 48½" 4" LW Beam: 41½" Stem Height: 19¾" Amidship: 13½" Shape: round bottom w/ low leadrise Keel: NY Whitehall style w/ skeg stern Capacity: 600 lbs. Building time: 150 hrs est.

http://www.gaboats.com/graphics/Classic12Front.jpg

http://www.gaboats.com/graphics/Classic12Side.jpg

http://www.gaboats.com/graphics/Classic12Top.jpg

http://www.gaboats.com/graphics/classic12_ph1.jpg

keyhavenpotterer

09-20-2010, 01:48 PM

This thread needs an SOF design ... even though the original poster specified glued lap and S&T.

By all means add SOF designs. Perhaps the prettiest boat on the planet is the 13' Adirondack SOF

http://www.capefalconkayak.com/alecrowssingle.jpg

http://www.capefalconkayak.com/adirondackguideboat.html

Brian (original poster)

keyhavenpotterer

10-04-2010, 05:26 AM

John Welsford's new 11'11" minimalist cruising design - SCAMP might well win the title best 12' cruiser. The prototype is coming along nicely, as these pictures from the Small Craft Advisor Blog show

http://smallcraftadvisor.com/our-blog/scamp-929.html

Brian

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-04-2010, 05:44 PM

I'm more shocked than I can say! Five pages and no Cambridge University Twelve Footer aka National Twelve Foot One Design aka 1948 Olympic Singlehander aka Firefly?

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/Skyfly%20and%20Aquarius/DSCF0917.jpg?t=1286231676

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/Firefly19470001.jpg?t=1286231951

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/scan0001-1.jpg?t=1286232000

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/Skyfly%20and%20Aquarius/DSCF0839-1.jpg?t=1286232190

The plans ARE available, from Uffa Fox Ltd.

Steve Paskey

10-05-2010, 01:01 PM

I'm more shocked than I can say! Five pages and no Cambridge University Twelve Footer aka National Twelve Foot One Design aka 1948 Olympic Singlehander aka Firefly?

She's an outstanding boat and a classic, but it seems like she'd be a handful for a home builder -- if I understand the article above correctly, she seems to be cold-moulded -- nine plies of veneer, alternating directions, for a total thickness of 3/8 of an inch. That means that each layer would be roughly 1 mm thick.

johnw

10-05-2010, 01:20 PM

I wonder if you could do it in plywood lapstrake? Wouldn't make it as a class boat, but it would be an interesting boat.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-05-2010, 04:23 PM

Yes, you could build her in glued lapstrake -and she would be "in class" as a Cambridge University 12 footer. Its worth noting that this hull was designed for lapstrake planking, so it would work out OK.

I think (but have not asked the Powers that Be in the Firefly world) that she would also be in class as a Firefly. The Firefly class are quite sensible - we have the Mark One (side decks) Mark Two (no side decks but substantial gunwales) Mark Three (the other stuff) and Mark Four (wood hull but extensive built in buoyancy tanks so you can get up and go after a capsize like a Laser - these are all rebuilt old wood hulls and they tend to dominate the class at present.

Frankly, the only reason why nobody has built a Firefly is that the Fairey built hulls are so very durable and repairable.

I reckon a lapstrake Firefly would look pretty much like this (the photo is actually of a pre-War National 12 - the Firefly complies with the National 12 Rule):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/N153_Witch_-_1st_Burton_cup_winner_at_the_70th_anniversary.jpg

Peerie Maa

10-05-2010, 04:38 PM

Then there are the newer 12's
http://www.national12.org/pictures/admirals_cupper-large.jpg

johnw

10-05-2010, 07:41 PM

Aren't weight limits pretty high on National 12s?

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-06-2010, 05:06 AM

National 12 - LOA 12ft, beam 6ft 6ins max, min weight 78kg, sail area ten point something square metres.

( In my humble opinion a twitchy little brute and if you want that sort of a boat why not get a proper one and have a Merlin-Rocket so you cane really benefit from the performance that comes with the twitchiness - National 12s always look "too short"!)

The Firefly is a one design which complies with the National 12 rule (but is of course hopelessly uncompetitive with a modern 12 - much nicer boat to sail, though!)

The National 12 is a development class;, they areb all carbon fibre now and the class recently had a bit of an upset with a radical new design which uses foils.

Sakari

10-06-2010, 12:18 PM

National 12 - LOA 12ft, beam 6ft 6ins max, min weight 78kg, sail area ten point something square metres.
...
The National 12 is a development class;, they areb all carbon fibre now and the class recently had a bit of an upset with a radical new design which uses foils.

Are plans available for building a National 12 - in wood, competitive or not? I looked at the website http://www.national12.org/ and saw building instructions, but not sources for actual building plans.

johnw

10-06-2010, 01:37 PM

Uffa Fox designed the first one, and I'm sure plans are still available, but the Firefly is probably a better design, and at 74 kg a bit lighter. The class weight for National 12s used to be higher used than it is now, so an older design wouldn't be as good a planing shape, as it would be optimized for the weight required at the time.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-06-2010, 04:33 PM

Sakari

10-07-2010, 01:12 AM

As the National 12 is a development class rather than a one design the keen National 12 sailor either designs his own or goes to one of the designers active in the class. New designs continue to come out.

But do the new designs use wood? The development, as I understand the class's web pages, currently seems to favor foam sandwich. Is anybody (active/living) designing in wood? Plywood?

Plywood seems to have been used in the 1970's, at least. Are plans from that period available anywhere?

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-07-2010, 04:22 AM

Sorry, I was a bit slow on the uptake, there. I'm sure that wood plans for National 12s can be got, perhaps from under matresses, or a current designer could design in wood. I recall that a new Merlin-Rocket in wood was exhibited at the Dinghy Show last year - a very competitive and quite beautiful boat. But I don't know enough about National 12s.

johnw

10-07-2010, 12:25 PM

Hey, what ever happened to the development of the planing dinghy thread? I tried to look up something in it the other day and it was deleted.

Songololo

11-16-2010, 02:40 AM

This newer Gartside 12ft clinker dinghy (Design #130 (http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow.php#127clinkdink)) doesn't seem to be on our 12fter list:

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/12clinker130.jpg

12 Ft Clinker Dinghy Specifications:

Length overall: 12 ft 0 in
Beam: 4 ft 10 in
Depth amidships: 1 ft 5 in
Sail area: 68 sq. ft.
Weight: 180 lbs. approx.

keyhavenpotterer

11-16-2010, 04:16 AM

We have also to add SCAMP, which has to be up there as the best cruising 12' dinghy.

http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/download/file.php?id=72
http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/download/file.php?id=73
http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewforum.php?f=3

Brian

Sayla

11-17-2010, 04:56 AM

Well,
This one worked well - still the record holder I think - only thing is that it isn't timber (probably could have been)

http://users.tpg.com.au/landsend/aa.jpg

aldebaran

11-17-2010, 11:34 AM

In the 12´"real" wood clinker, I like this one. (Oughtred Guillemot streched 6" to 12´)

http://www.viking-boats.com/Images/guillemot8.jpghttp://www.viking-boats.com/Images/guillemot1.jpghttp://www.viking-boats.com/Images/newprojects10.jpg

keyhavenpotterer

12-09-2010, 07:27 AM

The design featured in post 156 was "Small" by Antonio Dias ( she can be built at 13'). I have never been able to find his website until now. Small Craft Advisor blogged Antonio and mentioned his website, and the link worked. So plans are available and here is a computer rendering

http://antoniodiasdesign.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/small-aft-low-cad-model.png?w=480&h=507

and another image.

http://antoniodiasdesign.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/riding-the-puff-0029.png?w=480&h=359

plans from
http://antoniodiasdesign.wordpress.com/portfolio/sailboats/small/

and thanks to SC Advisor

http://smallcraftadvisor.com/our-blog/antonio-dias-boat-design.html

Brian

dlongworth

12-31-2010, 10:52 AM

My vote goes to the Abaco Dingy's built in the Bahamas.

http://councill.home.mindspring.com/sbjournal/keys/bdingy.html

schoonerpacket

12-31-2010, 02:48 PM

For me it's gotta be the PD Goose. 12' of "I can do whatever I want with this hull" and cheap to boot.

Ben Fuller

01-01-2011, 07:28 PM

That is true. With trailer I would be inclined to sail something 15-16' minimal.

I'm doing a project for folks in the spring who needed a 14 1/2 foot boat (rowing boat/tender) for themselves and dog yet wanted to easily cartop it. It has been a challenge but the original boat was 11 1/2' and it just wasn't gonna work.

The other constraint of course is if the one-design fleet is all 12, then you have to stick to 12 if you want to race.

Clint, your real challenge here is getting the boat loaded and unloaded. Might want to think about loading systems, and a dolly. And keep the weight to something that the owners can lift 1/2. Get one end up, slide or roll the boat up the rest of the way. I used to solo load my decked canoe at 138 lbs that way.

Brad887

04-27-2011, 05:18 PM

I have a super soft spot for the Sabre - an Australian 12' cat-rigged racing dinghy.

Me too, and they're making their way to the US.

http://s386.photobucket.com/albums/oo308/BradCJ/Sabre/

http://woodenboat.com/boat/

Pateplumaboat

05-06-2012, 03:29 PM

Steve, Spike has my vote too. I am building my second Spike now and will complete the second within few weeks from now.

Picture of my first Spike (Spike #1) from last year:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V9t-CnB_Sxk/TklUqUEIE5I/AAAAAAAAFOM/HSFqI77SmKc/s640/DSC07986.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hixWtuKfyGg/TklUjxVQfmI/AAAAAAAAFNk/vmn3WKpNoUA/s640/DSC07942.JPG

Spike #1 I built with flotation chambers fwd and aft and with spritsail. Equipped also for Torqueedo electric motor. See pictures under
https://picasaweb.google.com/115911222022005763297/BuildingGuacamayaSpikePikeSkiffDesignIainOughtred#

And here progress for my second Spike as per today. Hull finished, next step more sanding and oiling/painting next week.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-41QBJVWXtZI/T6al0yyM_uI/AAAAAAAAHZQ/etlTwsUDpww/s640/DSC03296.JPG

Weight as per picture above: 44 kg (94 lb).
This time I will go for lugsail (see changes of thwart-location) and I adopted transom to fit small outboard (Honda 4-stroke 2.3 hp).

I think that Iains designs are excellent and both Spikes are successors of my first Oughtred-build, an Amberjack/Stickleback Swamscott Dory.

Regards from Austria,
Christian

keyhavenpotterer

05-07-2012, 10:01 AM

The strangest thing has happened. This thread brought me, and others, great pleasure. So many beautiful 12' dinghies. Clint Chase proposed Paul Gartside's Riff. I have to say, the images on Paul's website are very evocative, perhaps my favourites of all posted here.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/storage/136drifting-bw.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1309810567189

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2044/2459246396_0868c719b7.jpg?v=0

While John Welsford works on Nautilus, I have managed over a four month period to clear my garages of 24 years of boat bits, windsurfers, car, bikes and junk. Sold off all my boats. Boatless for the first time in nearly 40 years.

And then.......

Much to my surprise a bare epoxy clinker hull built to the Riff plans came up for sale on eBay. Practically no bids and so I bought her, and now own a Riff hull. How strange the world works. She is very handsome, standing next to her she excites the sailor in me. Bigger all around than our local Scows she looks like she will be a tremendous sailor.
At 12'3" long on a broad 5'7" beam she is a big 12 footer.

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/file/n3957088/DSCN1373.jpg

http://uk-hbbr-forum.967333.n3.nabble.com/file/n3957088/DSCN1375.jpg

I think Paul Gartside should supply plans for her in epoxy clinker ply. The hull weighs about 40kg. Ed and I picked her up, turned her on her side, walked out through a doorway and down 4 steps and onto the trailer.

Brian

sailoar

05-07-2012, 11:29 AM

Brian, it'll be interesting to see how she compares to the Shearwater. Will the Shearwater also have the single lug?

keyhavenpotterer

05-07-2012, 11:45 AM

Brian, it'll be interesting to see how she compares to the Shearwater. Will the Shearwater also have the single lug?

Ed and I spent a while comparing the plans. One set of lines on top of the other. We were amazed how similar they were, especially the front 1/3 of the hull. Riff hull flares out another 4 inches at the gunnel and all the way back to a wider transom. Perhaps a firmer turn of the bilge for the rear 1/3 for Shearwater and more upright sides.

Ed already has the lug rig for her, a slightly larger version than the standard one drawn and I already have a complete lug rig the same size. Will be terrific to sail them together. Ed has just about cut all his planks and may have her planked up before long. My lug rig is a more upright rig than Paul has drawn. I have scaled my rig to the plans and have found the upright rig fits nicely into place with the same centre of effort. I like Riff's forward placed mast for looks but after sailing in such rough waters for years now, perhaps the mast a little further back out of the bows might be better as well.

Brian