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ishmael
11-19-2009, 04:02 PM
How many here have taken a gun safety course? I haven't, learned at poppa's knee. But it seems like it would be a good idea to require some sort of gun course to own a gun. Just a few hours.

The rules can be distilled into two:

Never assume a firearm isn't loaded, look.

Don't point a loaded firearm at something you don't intend to shoot.

I know, I know, this is a troll. But with the ongoing pressure on firearms ownership I'm curious what people are thinking. I'd be willing to have a competency licensure.

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 04:08 PM
more than two rules...


always treat a firearm as if its loaded, until you verify that both the magazine and the chamber are empty
always keep your gun pointed in a safe direction
always keep your finger off the trigger until you have your target sighted and are ready to shoot
always be sure of your target and what lies behind it.

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 04:16 PM
Of course I've done a gun safety course... twice. Once for my shooters licence in New Zealand and once for my shooters licence in Australia.

I'd add another rule.... although there are more... maybe as many as 41.

..... always keep your firearms in an approved gun safe, with the ammunition in a separate locked container.

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 04:18 PM
..... always keep your firearms in an approved gun safe, with the ammunition in a separate locked container.now you've gone and done it

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 04:18 PM
LOOK OUT!!! here come Joe and Milo with their pitchforks and torches... (yelling, "get an assault rope")

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 04:20 PM
BTW not only have I had safety courses...I taught them

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 05:37 PM
That would be a very difficult concealed-carry arrangement.

Concealed carry is never about gun safety though, is it?

wizbang 13
11-19-2009, 05:38 PM
Keep your gun in a safe with ammo elcewhere? How is the gun gonna' keep you safe? Yes, took a class taught by a local cop. Got guns (loaded) all over the place!Well, not on the boats.

htom
11-19-2009, 05:39 PM
"Strong Cooper", learned, teach, advocate and DO:

1. All guns are always loaded. ALWAYS!.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you don't want destroyed.
3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire.
4. Always be sure of your target, and what is above, below, beside, beyond, and through the target.

(No exemption to #1 because you've checked. You could be wrong.)

BarnacleGrim
11-19-2009, 05:41 PM
Why concealed?

perldog007
11-19-2009, 05:51 PM
Many many formal courses, from boy scouts to military to civilian security, specail police, concealed carry, hunter safety... From my Grannie ( grandpop passed over young, health problems) stern beatings for pointing even toy guns at folks. Right on the stern.

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 05:59 PM
Strange comment. CC is 100% about keeping yourself and your family safe. If you carry for any other reason you're carrying for the wrong reason.

So the more people who decide to keep themselves and their family safe, the less safe you really are. Strange situation indeed.

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 06:04 PM
But Terry, the statistics prove it to be the right conclusion.

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 06:11 PM
But Terry, the statistics prove it to be the right conclusion.Ian, I've seen you post a lot of gun fatality statistics dominated of course by '41'; but I don't think you've broken them down by law abiding citizens that hold a legal CCW...

wizbang 13
11-19-2009, 06:12 PM
statistics..schmatistics. They are all manufractured. The chances of your home being burgled is more than catchin'fire. How many fire-xers you got?

switters
11-19-2009, 06:15 PM
can we please speed this along?

"i dont need a gun"

"41"

safest culture

"american gun culture"

2 pages of 2nd amendment debate

thread sinks to bottom when sarah palin gets out of car in skirt and photog gets pic of panties, leading to three pages of what black signifies.

carry on if you need Finnegan's Wake in glory detail, if you must:D

wizbang 13
11-19-2009, 06:18 PM
We had a mall shooting in Tacoma some years ago. F**kwad with a rifle started popping off. First responder, ccp ,stopped him.The people who do NOT get shot are not in the "statistics"

BarnacleGrim
11-19-2009, 06:19 PM
Strange comment. CC is 100% about keeping yourself and your family safe. If you carry for any other reason you're carrying for the wrong reason.
So it's not enough to just carry a gun, nobody else are allowed to know about it?

purri
11-19-2009, 06:22 PM
I'm in favour of locked and secured safes separate for firearm and ammo and passing compulsory safety course. Had a pistol licence for many years and am still a licensed safety examiner.
BTW I've seen MIL types fail both on the range and an exam.

As for CCW, unless you're in the wrong country/neighbourhood then NO WAY!

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 06:32 PM
I can cut the statistics as finely as you'd like Paul... if you'd like to pay the fees.

I took a serious look at the gun "safety" statistics in the US and a whole heap of folks, perhaps including you, got the idea that I was US bashing, anti-gun, a bastard, etc, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth, the bastard bit excepted, perhaps.

What interests me is the breaking down of the spin... or perhaps we should say propaganda around these issues, and that includes things like the "GM won the war", "9/11 was a black flag operation", "we saved your sorry asses" rubbish.

I put the numbers together... presented them in a way that was eminently understandable... and believe me, rates per hundred thousand aren't to the man on the street.... and no-one has been able to discredit that research.

Here's the challenge guys.

Prove me wrong. I'll restate the case for you... just in case you missed it....

In the USA, every 41st American male death is due to a gunshot.

The figure for "all Americans" is every 67th death. No combat deaths included.

This statistic is an average of the last 30 years figures from the death stats, lagged by a couple of years (because it takes that long to get the stats out).

The total number of deaths due to gunshot within the US borders in the last 30 years is 1 million. To clarify that, I make it 920,963 for 1979-2006 inclusive..... add a couple more average years to those 28 and you get the 1 million... to within about 15,000 - and I'll see if the later stats have come out, just for you.

Tell me again how safe these guns are?

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 06:37 PM
"GM won the war"Hey... that's my best flame bait ever with regards to you personally!!!:p

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 06:42 PM
So it's not enough to just carry a gun, nobody else are allowed to know about it?

every cop that sees your vehicle plate knows you have a gun...so I told my local cop, when he asked me why I didn't have a CC permit, that if I want it concealed from anybody, I want it concealed from everybody...including him! He got offended. I told him I do not give away my authority and to remember if he doesn't know I have it...then that automattally means he doesn't have a problem...so don't sweat it

switters
11-19-2009, 06:45 PM
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Meanwhile, I would like to know why the Australians have not adopted the same gun laws as Canada who are safer than Australians.

Or better yet, Saudi Arabia. In Saudi, if you want a gun you go ask the king. This wouldn't be difficult since Australia already pledges fealty to a queen. Total safety.

I am being an ass, just trying to liven up the dialog a little. but it is all true.

purri
11-19-2009, 06:47 PM
BTW I'm in favour of scrapping gun registration except for sidearms.

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 07:01 PM
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Meanwhile, I would like to know why the Australians have not adopted the same gun laws as Canada who are safer than Australians.

Or better yet, Saudi Arabia. In Saudi, if you want a gun you go ask the king. This wouldn't be difficult since Australia already pledges fealty to a queen. Total safety.

I am being an ass, just trying to liven up the dialog a little. but it is all true.

Yeah... I wouldn't rely too much on a source that can't state the year that the stats apply too.

Try wiki instead, at least they show the years and their sources of info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Here's their stats for the last year comparable across the USA, Canada and Oz.... that'd be 2007... for intentional homicides (rate per 100,000)

US 6.1,

Canada 1.80, :confused: safer??? I don't think so.

Australia 1.2.

Oops. What did you say about being an ass? :D

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 07:05 PM
I have no argument with these statistics, they sound perfectly reasonable, if anything a bit on the low side.

America is armed to the teeth and America is a very unsafe place because of it. As I've said in previous threads, I wish there were no guns in America. I could happily live without mine if that were the case.

But the reality is, all the crazoids are armed, and let fly on the least pretense. So, you either play the odds and hope you never become a victim, or you take personal responsibility for the protection of yourself and your family. That's our reality here.

But I was talking about the threat to public safety from licensed concealed carry. I don't believe the public is less safe because a percentage of citizens are legally permitted to carry a concealed weapon. If you have statistics to the contrary, I would like to see them.

If you really want to do something about the protection of yourself and your family, you do something about gun safety. Gun safety, not armed response. To do something about gun safety, you need to remove self protection as an excuse for carrying a loaded weapon.

wizbang 13
11-19-2009, 07:07 PM
Take away the suicides and the intentional shootings fromthe stats. Wishing for no guns is like wishing for no plastic boats ,perfect world.

switters
11-19-2009, 07:09 PM
damn, attack the source and ignore the rest of the argument. Shirley you are not giving up that easily. Just going to let the jab at the queen pass? hopefully you are tired from a long day sanding on the new boat.

SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

it was at the bottom BTW.

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 07:12 PM
If you really want to do something about the protection of yourself and your family, you do something about gun safety. Gun safety, not armed response. To do something about gun safety, you need to remove self protection as an excuse for carrying a loaded weapon.I want to know just how unsafe I, personally, am Ian.... a white male, 38 years old, college educated, multiple gun owner, living in a very rural area, with no personal or family history of depression or other mental illness. You keep implying that I have a 2.43 % chance of being a fatality of firearm; but I don't think that's really the case.... is it now?

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 07:12 PM
Are license plated marked in Arkansas? Or are you referring to back-checking through public records?

any traffic cop who runs your plates knows if you have a CC permit before he gets out of his car

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 07:14 PM
If you really want to do something about the protection of yourself and your family, you do something about gun safety. Gun safety, not armed response. To do something about gun safety, you need to remove self protection as an excuse for carrying a loaded weapon.

no...you do not Ian

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 07:23 PM
Yes, I knew that. And he also knows the minute you open your mouth, because you're required to tell him you're armed. I have no problem with law enforcement knowing this about me.That's true; but you know what, I've been had a pistol permit for 16 years and have been pulled over a number of times for speeding, etc etc... and I think only once has the officer ever asked me if I had a concealed weapon in the vehicle.

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 07:29 PM
Donn...Cops are part of a speicial "club" and it is jelous of it's privilages

Bob Adams
11-19-2009, 07:45 PM
I can't get a carry permit in NY. I can teach gun courses, carry guns for practice and teaching, and buy almost any of my preferred guns..but I can't carry. The laws are so screwed up it's become ridiculous. I teach Tactical Shotgun to cops, but I can't get a carry permit from the same cops. Go figure.


Because, like the "free state" of Maryland, you have to prove a special need (IE:be rich or famous) to be allowed the right to protect yourself.

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 07:45 PM
I want to know just how unsafe I, personally, am Ian.... a white male, 38 years old, college educated, multiple gun owner, living in a very rural area, with no personal or family history of depression or other mental illness. You keep implying that I have a 2.43 % chance of being a fatality of firearm; but I don't think that's really the case.... is it now?

I guess it depends on how many EBS you attend in Detroit eh? Yes, the 1 in 41 is considering you as an American male. Yes there are factors that both improve and degrade your potential positioning in the statistics.

I'm sure that if you volunteered to do some work with the local police as a community safety program, you could get access to the statistics that let you work out where you sit.

I've done it with a state police force (13,500 or so sworn members) - and we cut the stats down to District levels... about 17 IIRC for the state. There were significant differences between districts. Country districts show as being significantly over-resourced when it comes to police numbers vs crime stats.

Incidentally, we were looking to relate crime stats so that the represented occurences to the opportunity..... eg number of car thefts to the number of vehicles in the district... and then look between districts to see why there were variations... so that something could be done to manage the exceptions.

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 07:46 PM
Oops... did I just violate a 30 year secrecy agreement?

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 07:51 PM
I feel we have a fundamental disagreement on this issue, but I respect your opinion. I wish the solution to gun crime in America was that straightforward.

Fair enough. I know it isn't simplistic.

btw, I had a situation here a few years back, where if I'd been carrying, I almost certainly would have blown away a guy or been killed trying. He pulled a tomahawk on me at my front door.

The situation was resolved instead by me pushing him away, slamming the door and calling the police. As much as the world might be a better place without him, I'm content with not having his blood on my hands.

Tylerdurden
11-19-2009, 07:54 PM
What a pointless argument. If you want our guns so bad just come and get them. Consider it and open invitation.;)

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 07:55 PM
Fair enough. I know it isn't simplistic.> http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 07:58 PM
1/41 of all American men will be shot to death...(sigh)

stevebaby
11-19-2009, 08:29 PM
We had a mall shooting in Tacoma some years ago. F**kwad with a rifle started popping off. First responder, ccp ,stopped him.The people who do NOT get shot are not in the "statistics"Nonsense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting

"During the course of the shooting, Brandon (Dan) McKown, a legally armed citizen, intervened. McKown drew his 9mm CZ pistol, and verbally commanded Maldonado to put down his gun. Maldonado's response was to fire on McKown, striking him once in the leg and four times in the torso, damaging McKown's spine and leaving him paralyzed. In addition to McKown, five other people were shot but not seriously injured, and a seventh person received a non-gunshot injury. At least one other person in the mall at the time also pulled a gun on Maldonado but did not fire for fear of hitting innocent bystanders.[1]"
Far from stopping the shooter, the armed citizen did nothing but get himself shot...and paralysed for life.

ishmael
11-19-2009, 08:48 PM
What has happened? I confess a general ignorance of today's gun culture. I've told it before, but it's worth a repeat. When a kid, maybe thirteen, I took a .22 rifle, my father's single shot boy's carbine, to school for show and tell. I rode the bus with it. No one thought twice about it. These days they'd call in the SWAT team.

We've been over this ground before, but the changes still make me sad.

The Bigfella
11-19-2009, 09:07 PM
I could tell a tale about someone who took 7 sticks of gelig$*te to school too.... but I won't. All it ever blew up was some fish.

perldog007
11-19-2009, 09:35 PM
I can't get a carry permit in NY. I can teach gun courses, carry guns for practice and teaching, and buy almost any of my preferred guns..but I can't carry. The laws are so screwed up it's become ridiculous. I teach Tactical Shotgun to cops, but I can't get a carry permit from the same cops. Go figure.


Strong argument for change of venue.

Bob Triggs
11-19-2009, 10:23 PM
Nonsense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting

"During the course of the shooting, Brandon (Dan) McKown, a legally armed citizen, intervened. McKown drew his 9mm CZ pistol, and verbally commanded Maldonado to put down his gun. Maldonado's response was to fire on McKown, striking him once in the leg and four times in the torso, damaging McKown's spine and leaving him paralyzed. In addition to McKown, five other people were shot but not seriously injured, and a seventh person received a non-gunshot injury. At least one other person in the mall at the time also pulled a gun on Maldonado but did not fire for fear of hitting innocent bystanders.[1]"
Far from stopping the shooter, the armed citizen did nothing but get himself shot...and paralysed for life.

The perpetrator did not deserve a warning or verbal command. He should have been killed instantly.

ishmael
11-19-2009, 11:29 PM
"The perpetrator did not deserve a warning or verbal command. He should have been killed instantly."

Um, maybe some different recourse? Reading this Wyatt Earp bio, with the OK coral as a climax, for the most part when Wyatt was confronted with someone really unruly he'd pull out his six gun and whack them on the head to quiet them down. An enforcement too lost to modern law officers. Kinda brutal, but better than shooting.

wizbang 13
11-20-2009, 12:14 AM
Maldonado stopped shooting people after he shot McKown. He could not walk around the mall un opposed (like someone on a certain army base)picking off unarmed targets because people would have (should have ) shot back. McKown is a hero. No one was killed, many could have been.

stevebaby
11-20-2009, 12:53 AM
The perpetrator did not deserve a warning or verbal command. He should have been killed instantly.Unfortunately, neither of the two armed citizens at the scene were prepared to engage the shooter in a gunfight.
He surrendered to police.

McMike
11-20-2009, 07:09 AM
1/41 of all American men will be shot to death...(sigh)


I think the statistic was 1 in 41 male "deaths" were a "result" of a gunshot.

Edit: wow, I just woke up and that realized I was being stupid.

ishmael
11-20-2009, 07:51 AM
"I think the statistic was 1 in 41 male "deaths" were a "result" of a gunshot."

And the vast majority of these deaths are gang related. I could use other words which might get banned, but young blacks and hispanics kill each other over turf. There's an entire culture dedicated to death and honor. How do you break the flow? Legalizing drugs might be a start.

BarnacleGrim
11-20-2009, 08:22 AM
Yes, that's why it's called concealed carry. If carried in the open, it would be called open carry.

What are the laws in Sweden concerning this issue?
Hunting and sport weapons only. Any hint that it might be used for personal protection leads to instant denial of a weapon license.

Carrying a weapon is only allowed when the weapon being used for the intended purpose (effectively only in the woods during hunting season or on the range). When transported it should be unloaded, and if possible, dismantled.

Sweden may be a bit extreme when it comes to gun control, but what is the justification for concealing your weapon?

Tylerdurden
11-20-2009, 08:24 AM
"I think the statistic was 1 in 41 male "deaths" were a "result" of a gunshot."

And the vast majority of these deaths are gang related. I could use other words which might get banned, but young blacks and hispanics kill each other over turf. There's an entire culture dedicated to death and honor. How do you break the flow? Legalizing drugs might be a start.

Good start, ending the cycle of poverty might be another. Unemployment rates for blacks in the inner cities has always been over 20% so how would we all react if we lived in a decades long depression? Couple that with the fact of the CIA's direct involvement in these imports of illicit drugs and you have a scandal of mega proportion.
We get exactly what we pay for. Its all our faults.

Tylerdurden
11-20-2009, 08:27 AM
Hunting and sport weapons only. Any hint that it might be used for personal protection leads to instant denial of a weapon license.

Carrying a weapon is only allowed when the weapon being used for the intended purpose (effectively only in the woods during hunting season or on the range). When transported it should be unloaded, and if possible, dismantled.

Sweden may be a bit extreme when it comes to gun control, but what is the justification for concealing your weapon?

You have a real problem there. Over 80 million gun owner's here and if just 3% resist and decide to fight for their rights it will not be pretty. Like I said just come and get them. The time for constructive argument is over.

paladin
11-20-2009, 08:34 AM
O.K.......I stayed out of this for a while....
NO ONE SHOULD BE CARRYING A FIREARM UNLESS PROPERLY TRAINED IN IT'S USE AND IS PREPARED TO USE IT.!!!!
A firearm is not a badge of honor....it is a tool. The tool needs an educated user.

Tylerdurden
11-20-2009, 08:46 AM
O.K.......I stayed out of this for a while....
NO ONE SHOULD BE CARRYING A FIREARM UNLESS PROPERLY TRAINED IN IT'S USE AND IS PREPARED TO USE IT.!!!!
A firearm is not a badge of honor....it is a tool. The tool needs an educated user.


Agreed. I think you know how I feel about guns. Its a tool like any other. I don't collect or trophy hunt but clearly understand what the framers wanted.

I think all of us wish for the day when firearms are history but reality sets in and it becomes a far distant vision. First we must learn to resist the need to control others. When we have done that then we can proceed.
A soldier prays for peace as he prepares for war. The problem is not guns its tyranny. Mask it any way you want. The recent surge in sales here in the US is not a reflection of people suddenly having a need to shoot Bambi. Its a response to a need to protect themselves and remain free.

ishmael
11-20-2009, 08:56 AM
"NO ONE SHOULD BE CARRYING A FIREARM UNLESS PROPERLY TRAINED IN IT'S USE AND IS PREPARED TO USE IT.!!!!"

Es verdad. So, a problem?

One day a friend and I were having a looksee around what was still a wild place. We were openly carrying a .22 pistol. Leanord, the local go to man, pulled up just to give us a look. He saw we were up to nothing nefarious and gave us a tip of the cap.

htom
11-20-2009, 09:28 AM
Most cops are reasonable. It's the ones who aren't who cause the problems -- as is true of every group.

Phillip Allen
11-20-2009, 09:45 AM
I think the statistic was 1 in 41 male "deaths" were a "result" of a gunshot.

Edit: wow, I just woke up and that realized I was being stupid.


yes and it's been pointed out to Ian on a number of occasions. That he continues to phrase it in a deliberately misleading way is proof enough of "pushing" for bad conclusions I think

Tylerdurden
11-20-2009, 09:48 AM
Most cops are reasonable. It's the ones who aren't who cause the problems -- as is true of every group.

I know this as I had an encounter with the dark side on 128 with some Ma. state troopers. A legal carry permit means nothing to them.

Tylerdurden
11-20-2009, 10:00 AM
I should have worded it differently. Of course, the cops have very little, if any, discretion in this case. It is the laws, not the cops, which prevent my getting a carry permit.

My argument was my frequent public possession of disabled firearms and ammunition makes me a potential target. It went to court, and a liberal judge didn't buy it.


Its hard to argue common sense in the halls where it generally doesn't apply.;)

RodSBT
11-20-2009, 11:27 AM
..."an armed society is a polite society."

Here in Montana we have one of the highest percapita firearms ownership in the country and yet some of the lowest gun death's in the country.

...I guess we're just of higher intelligence and stronger moral fiber than the rest of ya'll !!...

paladin
11-20-2009, 11:57 AM
My grandfather had an argument for firearms carry.....
He noted that east of the Mississippi folks were prohibited from carrying guns....and had a higher mugging/murder/robbery rate than west of the Mississippi....folks in other states in the west had guns, carried guns, storekeepers kept them under the counter, next to the cash register, bank employees were armed....and Joe Farmer down the road could be sure that if he walked into a store or bank to rob it, then his own neighbors would shoot him down in a heartbeat....I guess we are just too "modern" to handle the concept now.....although it would be a much nicer place if no one carried guns, and knives, and clubs, and didn't have impure thoughts...

hokiefan
11-20-2009, 12:43 PM
"I think the statistic was 1 in 41 male "deaths" were a "result" of a gunshot."

And the vast majority of these deaths are gang related. I could use other words which might get banned, but young blacks and hispanics kill each other over turf. There's an entire culture dedicated to death and honor. How do you break the flow? Legalizing drugs might be a start.

Need to expand this a little, maybe say young urban punks. Cause the white bangers shoot each other just as fast as any other. Over drugs, booze, girls, getting dissed, whatever stupid thing pisses them off that day. Kids growing up in the bad neighborhoods don't see much hope for a good future, so todays perceived pride and respect is all they got. Pretty short term thinking, but they never had anyone to teach them a better way. Pretty sad.

Cheers,

Bobby

Phillip Allen
11-20-2009, 01:31 PM
Not even close.

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/figures/70-Figure-3.gif

any insights Ian?

of the men in the above graph...how many were normally armed (legally vs illegally), recieved any hunter/gun safety training, lived in large cities...small town and anything else to explain the numbers...?

Phillip Allen
11-20-2009, 01:33 PM
I would also like to know what percentage of each ethnic/racial totals the numbers represent?

peb
11-20-2009, 01:35 PM
What has happened? I confess a general ignorance of today's gun culture. I've told it before, but it's worth a repeat. When a kid, maybe thirteen, I took a .22 rifle, my father's single shot boy's carbine, to school for show and tell. I rode the bus with it. No one thought twice about it. These days they'd call in the SWAT team.

We've been over this ground before, but the changes still make me sad.

I don't know if that much of today's gun culture is that much different than you or me. I have similiar stories. The farm pickup I drove to high school had a .22 in it every day. I remember one day a bunch of us wanted to skip out of school early and go pheasant hunting. Only problem was the last class was off-season football. Simple solution, tell the coaches what we wanted to do, they wanted to go with us. All of us met by the field house with 12 guages, hunting vests and shells while we got ready to go. The guns part of it was no big deal. Leaving school early with the coaches at our side was a bigger deal than that. But the principal probably would have wanted to go with us also if he had known.
I was at a meeting in Germany, over breakfast I was discussing the merits of a 12 guage vs a 20 gauge as a xmas present for my 8th grade son with a co-worker. We were joined by hour German sales office. He was shocked at the conversation. We were shocked at his reaction.

So yes, we can hear about all the stats on gun deaths to no end, but it just doesn't sink in. To us, guns are dangerous, just like cars are dangerous. But if used properly, we see them as no big deal and a legitimate hobby.

hokiefan
11-20-2009, 02:26 PM
Not even close.

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/figures/70-Figure-3.gif

The mean streets around here tend to be predominately black, for a lot of reasons. But there are some nasty white neighborhoods where the punk kids will shoot each other with some regularity. Or use a knife, in this case over a 16 year old girl-child. http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/crime/2009-11-07/story/law_disorder_man_turns_himself_in_on_murder_charge

My only point is that the kids shooting each other aren't just black and hispanic. The mean streets come in all colors.

Cheers,

Bobby

The Bigfella
11-20-2009, 04:34 PM
Try that graph again for all ages. You selected a segment that has 2,076 of the 18,124 homicides for that particular year... which incidentally isn't the latest data. It also happens to be the age segment where gangs are most prevalent.

One of the reasons I did the data for all available years... ie 1979 on, was to take out minor variations between years. Jack's claim is one that he continues to repeat... and he's been shown to be wrong in numerous previous threads.

The Bigfella
11-20-2009, 04:39 PM
yes and it's been pointed out to Ian on a number of occasions. That he continues to phrase it in a deliberately misleading way is proof enough of "pushing" for bad conclusions I think

Tell me again how its misleading?

Here's the raw statistics.

For the years 1980 to 2005, inclusive, 727,326 American males died of a gunshot wound. During the same years a total of 29,549,997 males died (all causes).

How would you describe the gun death proportion Phillip? Or would you rather just pretend it didn't happen?

bwd
11-20-2009, 04:47 PM
Big fella, you are not a statistician, and you certainly don't (legally) own a modern firearm,
them being highly illegal in your colony,
so why,
why,
why?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
just because it's the bilge??:D

switters
11-20-2009, 04:48 PM
oh this is going to be funny

The Bigfella
11-20-2009, 04:49 PM
Here's a previous post of mine on the issue of race in relation to gun deaths....



Sorry Sean, but I just did some numbers on race in response to the issue raised by Dave. I found some detailed stats for 2004

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/Mor...kTable250F.pdf (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/MortFinal2004_WorkTable250F.pdf)

African Americans are over-represented in gun homicides by a factor of 4. Based on population percentage (13.4%), you would expect their share of gun homicides to be 1,557 - but it was 6,201.

The "white" figure of 5,119 is still 13 times the Australian rate though.

I expected to see the same ratio reflected in "legal intervention" but didn't. Total was 372, of which 262 are "white" and 92 are African American. Still significantly over-represented (would expect 50 on a population ratio basis)

The Bigfella
11-20-2009, 04:52 PM
Big fella, you are not a statistician, and you certainly don't (legally) own a modern firearm,
them being highly illegal in your colony,
so why,
why,
why?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
just because it's the bilge??:D

Gee... don't tell my clients... you could cost me big bucks....

Oh yeah, don't tell the cops either... that .308 BLR must be a hologram and the Winchester and the ... and the... and why the hell did I just renew my shooters licence for five years?

stevebaby
11-20-2009, 05:09 PM
Big fella, you are not a statistician, and you certainly don't (legally) own a modern firearm,
them being highly illegal in your colony,
so why,
why,
why?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
just because it's the bilge??:DWhere do you get this nonsensical "information"?
http://www.sydneypistolclub.com/
http://www.aussieweb.com.au/directory/directory.aspx?cid=1505&lid=60008

McMike
11-20-2009, 06:51 PM
[quote=Tylerdurden;2394244]Agreed. I think you know how I feel about guns. Its a tool like any other. I don't collect or trophy hunt but clearly understand what the framers wanted.
quote]

Yet you talk like a punk ass gansta’ with the "If you want my guns you can come get them" comment. Makes sense to me.

And do YOU really know what the framers were thinking? Come on . . . no more than I do.

Phillip Allen
11-20-2009, 08:26 PM
Tell me again how its misleading?

Here's the raw statistics.

For the years 1980 to 2005, inclusive, 727,326 American males died of a gunshot wound. During the same years a total of 29,549,997 males died (all causes).

How would you describe the gun death proportion Phillip? Or would you rather just pretend it didn't happen?

(sigh) You said on a number of your posts that one in forty-one American men die from gunshot...

that is easy enough to read...1/41st of ALL American men die from guns...

Phillip Allen
11-20-2009, 08:30 PM
[quote=Tylerdurden;2394244]Agreed. I think you know how I feel about guns. Its a tool like any other. I don't collect or trophy hunt but clearly understand what the framers wanted.
quote]

Yet you talk like a punk ass gansta’ with the "If you want my guns you can come get them" comment. Makes sense to me.

And do YOU really know what the framers were thinking? Come on . . . no more than I do.


the Right certainly does NOT know what the framers were thinking...but the Left does

The Bigfella
11-20-2009, 08:33 PM
(sigh) You said on a number of your posts that one in forty-one American men die from gunshot...

that is easy enough to read...1/41st of ALL American men die from guns...

Hopefully you understand what you are on about?