shallow draft sailing cruiser with standing headroom [Archive]

SScoville

11-19-2009, 11:33 AM

I'm looking for a design similar in size and accomodations to the Atkin Little Bear (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LittleBear.html)or Chesapeake Marine Design's Catbird 24 (http://www.cmdboats.com/cb24.htm), but with standing headroom.

Little Bear's sister, Twilight (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Twilight.html), has 5'7" below the companionway hatch, but the webpage does not specify that of Little Bear. The skectches of the boats appear to show the same, or close to the same, headroom in each.

JimD

11-19-2009, 11:51 AM

A couple questions: How shallow is shallow? And how much standing height do you need? Over six feet? The Hartley 24 and 28 have close to six feet as designed. They are vee bottomed so a little deeper than a flat bottom. Can be built as centerboarders or fixed keel. Beamy though, around nine feet

http://www.hartley-boats.com/images/28a.jpg

JimD

11-19-2009, 12:00 PM

This Paul Fisher multichine has a rounder hull shape. 25.5' six foot headroom, centerboard. If you don't like the junk rig I'm sure it would be a simple enough matter to convert to a western sail
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Shanghaid1.gif

SScoville

11-19-2009, 12:00 PM

DGentry

11-19-2009, 12:18 PM

Continuing with my (latest) Phil Bolger kick, I'll suggest his AS-29. 1'1" draft, unconventional but capable, with standing headroom.

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as29nash.jpg

JimD

11-19-2009, 12:38 PM

I'm about 6'1.5". So, 6'3" would be great. Shallow draft - less than 2 feet w/ board up. I wonder how much LIttle Bear's aft cabin roof could be raised without interfering with the boom and/or rigging.

Probably quite a bit. You could even play with the rig design a bit to raise the boom if you had to. Its not like its going to be a great sailer anyway. I've always liked both those designs, too.

Little Bear:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/LittleBear-1.gif
Twilight:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Twilight-1.gif

SScoville

11-19-2009, 01:30 PM

JimD

11-19-2009, 03:11 PM

How would a sloop like these perform with only the mainsail raised? I'm new to sailing and have been reading mostly about the cat ketch rig. It seems when single handing a boat the size of either of these, it would be very convenient to sail without the jib when tacking or beating.

Time for someone else to chime in as I'm not much of a sailor but with our little sloop and I would assume for something such as Twilight with a relatively small 70 sq ft jib its really not much work or trouble to tack or beat. To tack you just release the jib sheet and pay attention to the main. After the tack when you've got the main mostly sorted out you return to the flapping jib and snug it in. Then fine tune things a bit. Its not like you'll be cranking away on a winch. The jib sheet is likely just cleated in place on either side.

Edited to add: If you really wanted to you could put a tall cabin on a catboat. Devlin did an admirable conversion of a Ted Brewer design. They added a mizzen to this one, I assume because they lengthened the original boat but left the mast step where it was, resulting in a CE a little too far forward for the new hull:

http://www.devlinboat.com/images/shandy2.jpg

davidagage

11-19-2009, 03:51 PM

GFC Boats Bahama Mama has always beem one of my favorites. The first study prints I ever got...

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/bahama_mama.jpg

30', 9'6 Beam, 1'4 to 4'6 draft, 11K lbs

SScoville

11-19-2009, 03:51 PM

I just talked with a sailor friend about my concern regarding tacking. Not nearly as complicated as I thought. Looking at the drawings, I wonder how raising the height of the aft cabin would affect lowering the mast on the tabernackle. That may be what dictated the height of the cabin in the first place.

JimD

11-19-2009, 04:59 PM

... I wonder how raising the height of the aft cabin would affect lowering the mast on the tabernackle. That may be what dictated the height of the cabin in the first place.

Doubt very much if stepping the mast had anything to do with the cabin height. That would have amounted to the tail wagging the dog as it were. I don't think either Atkin was over 5'7" so that was all the headroom they needed. ;) Regardless, they were quite old school when it came to cabin size and cautioned again and again against tall cabins on sailboats. Other designers obviously do not seem to share their trepidation in this regard and are more willing to accomodate the taller sailer who does not wish to stoop, albeit at some detriment to sailing performance.

SScoville

11-19-2009, 05:01 PM

The lower cabins look better to my eyes too.

JimD

11-19-2009, 05:07 PM

The lower cabins look better to my eyes too.

I think most of us would agree, but as you know, if you want a low cabin on a small boat with lots of headroom about the only way to get it is through draft. Personally I like the look of tall cabins on small sailboats. I think it can be done right.

JimD

11-19-2009, 05:24 PM

On the subject of tall cabins and cat yawl rigs, if Sam Devlin offered plans for Auk I'm sure I would have bought them years ago:

http://devlinboat.com/images/auk.gif
Note: Sorry about the thread drift. Back to shoal draft...

SScoville

11-19-2009, 07:09 PM

Devlin claims his Moss Rock (http://www.devlinboat.com/mossrock.htm) has standing headroom:

http://www.devlinboat.com/images/mossrock.gif
Downside: No plans available, not easily trailered, and I really want to build something that is not stitch 'n glue.

Woxbox

11-19-2009, 08:35 PM

SScoville -- Not sure why you think standing headroom is important
in a small boat. Mostly they don't stay put too well, and it's a constant
issue to keep your balance on your feet.

But a bigger reason not to do it is that it totally destroys your ability
to look ahead when seated in the cockpit. To me, that takes away
far more than is gained with extra interior headroom.

A good compromise is to fit a pop-top -- an oversized hatch that
can be raised up by one means or another. The open sides can be
protected with canvas and/or screen, which makes the boat much
more comfortable. Small cabins do get warm and sticky pretty quickly.

Sayla

11-19-2009, 08:38 PM

Have you looked at popup cabin tops - I believe the English are right into them

http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio.php?item=82

SScoville

11-19-2009, 08:48 PM

A small houseboat is what I want. I will probably ultimately build Devlin's Millie Hill. I came across Little Bear and got to thinking, if I'm gonna go slow, why not do it under sail? Reuel Parker has a boat very similar to Devlin's Moss Rock, still almost 12 ' of beam.

I haven't warmed up to pop tops yet. I'll probably just stick with the shanty boat and tow a small sail boat.

JimD

11-19-2009, 09:18 PM

A small houseboat is what I want.

:D In that case twer it I I'd be happier with inside steering like the Mertens designs

http://bateau.com/studyplans/HB20_study.htm?prod=HB20

openboater

11-19-2009, 09:47 PM

nimble kodiak may fit the bill, if you don't mind plastic.

http://www.nimbleboat.net/images/kodiak.pdf

http://seaweed.thebilge.com/

Thorne

11-19-2009, 11:04 PM

Headroom you say? Shallow draft?

Michalak's Jewelbox or Petesboat or something with the open cabintop 'slot' may do the trick -

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/jewel3.jpg
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/petesboat/pete3.jpg
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/petesboat/index.htm

Chip-skiff

11-20-2009, 01:25 AM

I'd be tempted to get (or build) a capable sailer with shallow draft, such as a Norwalk Islands Sharpie, and add a pop-top for standing headroom at anchor.

http://www.nisboats.com/pics/BoatDesignPicsLarge/NIS-23-Layout.jpg

It looks fairly simple to put a pop-up hatch on the cabintop, with plenty of space under the boom. And if you like the cat-ketch rig, there it is.

Handy looking craft as well.

http://www.nisboats.com/pics/BoatDesignPicsLarge/NIS_23_CHARLIE_FISHER_AT_SP.jpg

SBrookman

11-20-2009, 01:37 AM

Steve Paskey

11-20-2009, 06:44 AM

How do you feel about leeboards?

Phil Bolger's W.D. Jochems Family schooner has standing headroom -- it was designed for a judge of about your height.

The boat is 26 feet long and has a "birdwatcher" style cabin -- spacious and lots of light. If I remember correctly, draft is around 2 feet. The combination of that cabin and water ballast gives it a great stability curve for a shallow draft boat.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/52373975_cd0a1f22f7.jpg

SScoville

11-20-2009, 08:14 AM

Michalak's Jewelbox or Petesboat or something with the open cabintop 'slot' may do the trick -

Pete's boat looks neat. I'm not crazy about these open tops/pop tops yet. Here's one I like, but I'm intimidated by the huge rig, and would like it better with less beam:
Parker's Scow 33 (http://www.parker-marine.com/descscow33.htm)

http://www.parker-marine.com/scow331.jpg

JimD

11-20-2009, 10:04 AM

A houseboat with a topsail double headsail gaff rig. What a novel idea...And now for six feet of headroom through out, 2'3" draft with board up, Beam under 8.5 feet, acres of open deck topside for lounging in the sun, simple plywood construction, and a proper sailboat to boot - the Hartley 30 http://www.hartley-boats.com/30.html :

http://www.hartley-boats.com/images/30h.jpg

SScoville

11-20-2009, 10:54 AM

Meets the criteria, but I don't like the lines. I'm gonna try to get a hold of Chappelle's book on American Small sailing craft. Seems like I remember some plans for sailing scow in there that may work.

Dave Hadfield

11-20-2009, 12:26 PM

I sailed a M26 with Pop Top for 9 seasons. Wonderful innovation, with absolutely no problems.

Makes a dark little kennel into a spacious, airy, bright room.

Dave

kenjamin

11-20-2009, 02:46 PM

Oughtred's Haiku: the ultimate shallow draft sailing cruiser with all the headroom you could ever want (as long as you are standing in the cockpit).

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Haiku1.jpg

ishmael

11-20-2009, 04:39 PM

Stambaugh's "Bahama Momma" is worth a look.

PeterSibley

11-20-2009, 06:26 PM

Oughtred's Haiku: the ultimate shallow draft sailing cruiser with all the headroom you could ever want (as long as you are standing in the cockpit).

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Haiku1.jpg

That's a very pretty boat !:)

JimD

11-21-2009, 12:42 AM

That's a very pretty boat !:)

Yeah, perfect for crawling around on your hands and knees when you're not in the cockpit enjoying the standing headroom.

PeterSibley

11-21-2009, 12:50 AM

You stand up to sleep ?

JimD

11-21-2009, 01:02 AM

You stand up to sleep ?

No, but somehow Haiku doesn't strike me as much of a houseboat.

PeterSibley

11-21-2009, 01:09 AM

No, but somehow Haiku doesn't strike me as much of a houseboat.

It's not :D, it's a rather lovely overnight cruiser for shallow waters ,in fact it would suit my local cruising grounds very well !:)

JimD

11-21-2009, 01:17 AM

It's not :D, it's a rather lovely overnight cruiser for shallow waters ,in fact it would suit my local cruising grounds very well !:)

Ya know, Peter, if I lived where you did I'd probably want one, too. And Haiku scores big points for the twin centerboards.

kenjamin

11-21-2009, 08:31 AM

I think Jim's right. If your in a colder climate, Haiku's cabin is not one where you would want to be stuck in for a week of bad weather. On the other hand, I live in Florida where in the spring, fall, and winter there are large cold fronts that come through that pretty much garrantee three days of excellent weather. In the summer that minimal cabin would be great for waiting out the occasional (like every day) thunderstorm. I've got no firsthand knowledge of how a big sharpie sails but Haiku sure looks like fun to me! The fact that for a thirty foot boat, it's probably fairly easy to launch is also nice. Any Haiku that wants to live on a trailer in my backyard is more than welcome! On my lust list of boats, Haiku is always near or at the top.

Woxbox

11-21-2009, 09:04 AM

The suggestions keep getting bigger. Is there a size or budget limit in this exercise, SScoville?

The Jesse Cooper at 25'6 answers the design criteria -- Bolger drew it to be lived in. Square Boats features this and similar designs:
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm

The Cooper:

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/TOMBOY.jpg

JimD

11-21-2009, 10:04 AM

Or even Bolger's Fast MotorSailer at only 22.5 feet:

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/FMSWAVE.jpg

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/FMSWHARF.jpg

Haven't seen the rig for it.

SScoville

11-21-2009, 10:08 AM

At this stage, it's just dreaming. I didn't expect this much of a response. I do plan to build a shanty boat this spring and plan to spend weekends out on the water with one or more smaller boats to messaround in.

I must finish the boat I'm currently building first. However, I just started reading L.F. Herreshoff's The Compleat Cruiser. If you're familiar with the book, you can probably see my thought process.

For now it's finish my Bay River Skiff, build Devlin's Millie Hill, then maybe Atkin's Little Peter. Or maybe I finish the Bay River SKiff and decide I'd rather build Little Bear than Millie Hill. But for now, I think a Millie Hill with some small boats better fits my situation - my wife prefers to fish than mess about and we just had a baby.

SScoville

11-21-2009, 10:12 AM

I think if I'm going to build a box, I prefer something like this:
http://www.devlinboat.com/images/millie_hill_v1-2_510px.jpg

Although I didn't find shany boats attractive at first either. Sorta grew on me.

JimD

11-21-2009, 10:13 AM

But ya can't go anywhere in a Millie Hill. Its great if you just want to tie up at a busy noisy, marina but how you going to get to any decent fishing areas?

SScoville

11-21-2009, 10:21 AM

It might take me 30 minutes to 1.5 hours to get there on the water, but that's okay if I'm going to spend the night.

JimD

11-21-2009, 10:23 AM

Wasn't there another houseboat with a real boat hull you were looking at in another thread? An old Atkins design, maybe?

SScoville

11-21-2009, 10:31 AM

Yeah, the River Rat. I saw another boat at the boat show, however, same hull as Millie Hill, and the performance and accommodations were much better than I thought. There is a whole lot of room in a 20 x 8 barge with an open interior. And the hull, while probably inefficient, will meet my needs.

JimD

11-22-2009, 10:26 AM

Hope you're not sorry you didn't go for River Rat. Difference between a real boat and a mini float home with an outboard. Sorry for babbling on about it .

andrewe

11-22-2009, 11:27 AM

My feeling is that if you have at least one area that you can stand up in at full hight and pull your slacks up is enough. The rest can be at sitting headroom unless you can budget for 30ft plus.
A
Some of your first choices had divided cabins. Why?
a

SScoville

11-22-2009, 12:17 PM

Hope you're not sorry you didn't go for River Rat. Difference between a real boat and a mini float home with an outboard. Sorry for babbling on about it

I've thought a lot about it and nothing is for sure until I actually start the project - or at least order the plywood. I already have the rest of the lumber for either project and the plans for both. And If I build the Millie Hill and decide I'd rather have something different, I'm fairly young and it won't likely be the last boat I build.

Some of your first choices had divided cabins. Why?

I just liked the lines of LIttle Bear, that's all.

JimD

11-22-2009, 09:51 PM

Millie Hill would be great to just tie up in a quiet little cove all to yourself for a week or so.

kenjamin

11-23-2009, 08:54 AM

Jim, old buddy, don't you know I hate it when you mention a boat you like or would like to spend a week in and I don't even know what it looks like? I had to reread the entire thread to learn its a Sam Delvin boat and then search his site for a picture. Shame on you. OK, no harm done. It was just a chance to sharpen my search skills.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/milliehill.jpg

What makes this forum so much fun is that there are so many boat designs (with new ones all the time) that can please so many different wish lists and personalities for so many different occasions. As someone relatively new to sailing, I am more intrigued with sailing performance than the practical aspects of living aboard so I guess that's why I lean towards Haiku and the fact that Iain Oughtred draws such darn good looking boats.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Haiku.jpg