Cheap Epoxy?...links

[footstepfollower]

Has anyone ordered from here? The website links can be a pain...

http://www.polymercompositesinc.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_new.tpl&product_id=142&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=135

I think this is their ebay store...

http://stores.ebay.com/Polymer-Products-The-Epoxy-Experts

The price is right, but what about the quality? They offer several types of epoxy. Any thoughts?

[The Bigfella]

The one thing I really, really hate on a project is a glue failure. The glue is probably the smallest cost item on a boat.

Never, ever, ever, skimp on the glue.

[Mike Vogdes]

You want to be buying the best not the cheapest..

[PeterSibley]

I think you need someone who can offer a real answer , are there any comparisons out there ?

[The Bigfella]

They were real answers Peter. By all means, experiment with the cheapest glue if you wish, but even the best glue gets tested at times.

[mcdenny]

The linked supplier is about the same price as RAKA, maybe a little more. Lots of people, including me, have used RAKA fr some time. Using no-blush hardener is a great time saver.

[Hwyl]

Paul Oman is a forumite. I've never used his product, but heard good things
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/

[PeterSibley]

They were real answers Peter. By all means, experiment with the cheapest glue if you wish, but even the best glue gets tested at times.
I'm implying that price is not necessarily the best way of choosing .A new product may be good but without market recognition ,cheap .Some kind of testing by a disinterested party is the best method of assessment .

Recommendations by users ,like mcdenny's of Raka are a close second .

[pfithian]

I and many other Tolman builders have had great success with Epoxy Products and paints, etc from Paul Oman. Very good people to deal with

[knottyBuoyz]

Has anyone ordered from here? The website links can be a pain...

I think this is their ebay store...

http://stores.ebay.com/Polymer-Products-The-Epoxy-Experts

The price is right, but what about the quality? They offer several types of epoxy. Any thoughts?
I've used a couple of their products including their ultra thin epoxy for resin infusion and the thixotropic stuff for glueing. They work exactly as described. Price is Ok. Shipping is fast & reasonable.

[footstepfollower]

I'll have to revisit the Raka site, as well as checking out Paul Oman's products again. I appreciate the advice, and I did ask. I'm just starting out and am wanting to build a semi-disposable atarter boat or two. I appreciate all of the "buy only the best" advice but I find it hard to believe that you can't build something from AC exterior plywood and cheap epoxy that will float for a couple years. Buying the "best" of everything triples the end cost... I'll get there I'm sure, but I just want to get started.

I've heard good things about Raka from several sources but thought they were a good bit more expensive than $78 for two gallons...

[aldebaran]

Of course you can build with exterior ply and the cheapest epoxy. The cheapest epoxy will still be a lot better than what plywood boats were made with just a few decades ago and many of those boats are still floating.
Exterior ply is ok if the boat is going to stay on land. If staying in the water, buy marine ply.

[TSTONE]

http://www.shopmaninc.com/epoxy.html

[JimConlin]

As I see it, there are two kinds of epoxy vendors. The Gougeons, Gurit/SP, System Three and MAS, to varying degrees, seem to understand the chemistry and mechanical properties of their products. All of the rest strike me a 'Darryl&Darryl' operations who are just buying drums from the two or three producers and whose marketing model is being folksy friendly on the phone and being cheap.

[Cooper]

I've had some success with Crystaliner products - insiders say their epoxy is the same as west system

[Trawlercap]

I notice after all the reading and follow up in this thread. I never saw anyone say "don't use this" I know there are plenty of different brands, and a lot of "rumors" about how good or the source of the epoxy. As I compile a list of possible epoxy's to order for my coming project, is there any stories out there of a brand of epoxy that is not any good?

[Lewisboats]

Paul Oman is a forumite. I've never used his product, but heard good things
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/

This is what I use all the time. I haven't had a failure that wasn't my fault yet.

1.5 gal of basic no blush is $83

http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?store=epoxy&product=..Epoxies&cart_id=9574850.89936&user-id=&password=&exchange=&exact_match=exact

[skaraborgcraft]

i may get it in the neck for this ....but....if you are building a disposible ply boat ,why go the expense of epoxy? I have used polyester resin on stitch and glue seams and not had any faliures,even if the ply has fractured elsewhere. I do however always prime my seams where im taping with G4 polyurethane,and lay up while this is still tacky. I do use epoxy,mostly system 3,but only for glue,not laminating. You guys in the states get your epoxy on the cheap,here in the UK,depending on source,a gallon ( 5 litres) is around $150. I have heard it said that only the best materials are good enough for building boats,but i say it depends on what use you put them through. I did take a fibre glassed joint seamed boat across the atlantic 15 years ago,but if i was building again today for the same trip,again in a ply boat,i wouldnt hesitate to use epoxy.You pays your money and takes your choice. Cheers.

[JimConlin]

i may get it in the neck for this ....but....if you are building a disposible ply boat ,why go the expense of epoxy?

If the people who use the boat are also disposable, maybe you're right.

[cookie]

...... I do however always prime my seams where im taping with G4 polyurethane,and lay up while this is still tacky....... Cheers.

Interesting technique. :)

[skaraborgcraft]

i was expecting to get some kind of negative response...and welcome it. Footstepfollwer didnt say what purpose his boats were going to be used for,and did himself mention the word disposable. Why throw good money into a disposable boat? Dynamite payson has built many boats of exterior grade ply and polyseter resin,and they are "fit for purpose"....thats the only point im making,there is nothing wrong in using cheap materials if you are just experimenting with ideas. Im just being open minded. Cheers

[Dan McCosh]

I once did a large job using epoxy from a commercial supplier who supplied industrial accounts. The price difference was about the same cited here, and some of the technical specifications were superior to WEST. The working temperature range was problematic, however. There is some markup to popular brand names, but the basic cost in epoxies is fairly high to begin with, and it is possible in effect to "water down" the mix with cheaper solvents. Bulk buys with WEST, etc., also lowers the cost. In small quantities (a gallon or less) , the price difference gets pretty insignificant.

[eastern270]

The linked supplier is about the same price as RAKA, maybe a little more. Lots of people, including me, have used RAKA fr some time. Using no-blush hardener is a great time saver.

I second what mcdenny said. I used system three resins which is one of the top three and they may be a little less in cost than what this outfit is charging. If you were going to build a piece of furniture it would be one thing but building a boat and taking it out on the water and expecting it to hold together with cheap materials is a risk I don't think you want to take.

[paladin]

Just remember there are only 2 or 3 major epoxy makers in the marine world...everyone buys the basic stuff and has their additives dropped in to make a "designer" label.

[JimConlin]

Epoxy is epoxy. As long as it is a reputable company I wouldnt have a problem with using it....

That's like saying "Wood is wood.".

I have a friend who made some epoxy composite parts last summer using an off-brand low-priced epoxy. The epoxy supplier is one which is often recommended here. The supplier does not publish any lab data on the mechanical properties of the cured epoxy. Well, the parts failed. They were stored under cover, got warm in the sun, got soft and crumpled like paper. It'll take him a week of work and close to $1000 to replace the parts. This time, he'll be using an epoxy whose maker has committed the engineering labor to get hard data on the performance of their product.

[JimConlin]

Well Jim sorry for your bad experience but nothing is completely foolproof.

There are a mulitude of things that an end useer can do wrong that will prevent an epoxy from reaching its optimum properties. Improper catalyst to epoxy ratio is probably the most common as is improper mixing both before and after mixing the two ingredients. after that there are an infintie number of possibilities in what went wrong with your " parts"

I would be interested in what brand the epoxy was and if you contacted the maker and what they told you. I would also be interested in hearing the epoxy makers side of the story.

And crumbled like paper? Were you using it as glue or what?

I think Paladin in his post after mine attested that all epoxy for marine use is made by 2 or 3 companies.

there is also the possibility of a "bad' batch. Happens all the time. I painted a hull one time with paint from a major manufacturer ( Intrlux) and lo and behold tiny blisters appeared under the paint surface a short time later. Also a short time later Intrlux came out with a " special" primer" for this paint which had blistered. It seems they had not sufficiently tested a new product or there was the possibility of problems with blisters in certain circumstances. Of course their warranty only covered the cost of the paint that was at fault - not the labor involved in the initial application, nor the stripping of the faulty paint or the reapplication of the new primer and topcoats.

Thats the chance you take when you use products.

Let me tell you a secret- gougeons warranty isnt any better than any one elses, nor would they admit fault any more than Intrlux did.

You can go on buying your " premium " product and paying premium prices for it, but that is no guarantee that the product that you put out your door will be any higher quality.

Nuts!

This cannot be attributed to a bad batch. The parts in question were made from about twenty batches, and have failed in a number of places. The builder in question has had exactly one bad batch in twenty years and about a hundred gallons of epoxy, the scale used has been calibrated before and since. Nope, the product used was sub-standard and the supplier either can't or doesn't care to publish its technical performance.

While there only a few manufacturers of bisphenol A, the basic ingredient of boatbuilding epoxy resins, there are many manufacturers of the materials used in epoxy hardeners. All epoxy systems are not all the same.

Guarantees are not useful when the product has been combined with other materials and valuable time and lives have been put at risk. What a boatbuilder needs is an epoxy manufacturer who knows what he's doing and is willing and able to prove it.

[Lewisboats]

You guys in the states get your epoxy on the cheap,here in the UK,depending on source,a gallon ( 5 litres) is around $150.
Not so much difference when you consider that a US gallon is a smidge UNDER 4 litres...3.89 I think. So...$30/litre....$117...I've seen that here for a gallon.

[Trawlercap]

This is from an article by Kurt Hughes.

http://www.multihulldesigns.com/post_apocalyptic_boatbuilding.htm


I understand that all the epoxy resin sold here comes in the same tanker from China. The various companies come up with creative hardners to mix with the same resin. I don’t think there is much chance to get a lower resin price. I also place a premium on vendor’s experience in creating the hardners needed for the particular jobs. As a example of both, I just received some samples of a low cost epoxy. The parts I coated looked ok. However, when I tried to pop the wasted epoxy out of the plastic cup the next day, the resin shattered like glass. I would not want to take a chance on my boat shattering the same way on an impact. The big boys may not have bargain epoxy, but they have the experience to create resin toughness that is so important in the bumpy real world. Negotiate with them on price.

[skaraborgcraft]

the above few posts about epoxy resin failure just reinforce my point of using a polyurathane/polyester combination. The poster didnt actually say what method he was intending to build except ply and semi-disposable. What happens in other peoples workshops and garages is not the same as what happens in proffesional shops where we build for customers and the quality issues are completely different. I say again that epoxy is this instance may not be the best choice. Cheers

[cookie]

.....As I compile a list of possible epoxy's to order for my coming project, is there any stories out there of a brand of epoxy that is not any good? I checked a couple of Dutch forums and the worst I read about a cheap epoxy was that the hardener can form crystals rather quickly when stored at moderately cool temperature. Not exactly shocking.

Scaraborgcraft, does your polyurethane/polyester method work with all/most polyurethanes and polyester resins? I could imagine certain chemicals not matching well and provide problems.

[Trawlercap]

Cookie, thanks for that, I have seen that in big name epoxy over time, I recall it is not so big of a deal. Like honey, you just heat it up slow and low.

[skaraborgcraft]

Cookie, i have always used "bondaglass G4" polyurethane sealer/varnish,in conjunction with anykind of laminating polyester resin,of various brands;and as i have said,have suffered no failures.....yet. There seems to be many kinds of polyurethane sealers for concrete/brickwork/pond sealer and flooring,and most have the same kind of chemical make up,especially as bondglass sell all there products in the same tins(marked pond sealer) with different labels. I have used this product for all types of sealing and coating,especially on ply end grain,and can see no point in using epoxy. Cheers

[Eric D]

surprised in a way no one even mentions

http://www.uscomposites.com/

I have built 4 boats with them, 1 friend 8, and another friend 3 boats with them, all have been excellent quality. None of them have crossed an ocean, most of them on the Great Lakes. They are cheaper, then West, MAS, System 3, Raka, but I have no real world tests to speak of it one is better than another. I do remember several years ago there was a test that I saw on the net that compared like 6 epoxies to destructive tests, in the end one did get a SLIGHT nod over the others, but most failed in one way or another (rather tough test).

YMMV, good luck on the build.

[luckystrike118]

I switched from SP and West to a small german manfacturer who makes epoxy for planes and wind turbine blades. I buy the not so expensive certificated Product lines from them and save around 30 to 40% in comparison to west. I made good experinces. They have a labratory (no, I don`t trust very cheap Noname companies without reputation) and can provide reliable technical data.

These are my preferences and I don't pay the expensive advertising bills of the big marine epoxy companies.

Where I really save a lot of money is in microballoons, collodial cilica, cotton fibre and E-glass, where the coose the cheapest on the market. I buy them usually at Ebay.

Grrreetings from te Nort Sea Coast, Michel

[luckystrike118]

Doing a little research can save a lot of money!

[Trawlercap]

Thanks everyone for your contributions. I have a pretty long list of different epoxies to choose from due to you help. It will come down to matching the job at hand, and the shipping. Trying to get similar amounts to compare is not easy, they all have different size amount and kits.....:-)

[Driver Mark]

Another vote for US Composites