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A. Mason
10-02-2002, 09:02 AM
The two recent threads "Adapting Designs" and "Design Ethics" brings up a third aspect that can be a real irritant to both Designers and Buyers - bogus design claims.

If a builder builds a boat to the design, the designer appreciates being credited with creating the design. It is an important form of advertising for the designer. Their reputation is based on the quality of their designs, and they take great pride in being able to say "that's one of my designs!"

On the other hand, if the builder makes substantial alterations - i.e., lengthening the hull; changing the size, shape and appearance of the cabin trunk; changing the rigging; etc. - to the extent that the actual boat no longer looks like the design , the designer tends to frown on be having the boat directly attributed to them.

In this situation, the proper way to describe the boat is to say that the design was "derived from" or "based on" the designer's work, "with builder/owner alterations." Designers themselves have often identified where their ideas originated.

If one of Al's designs incorporated elements from another source, whether it was one of his previous designs or from another designer's work, he would identify that source in his "Designer's Remarks."

From a Buyer's point of view there can be, and has been, great disappointment when they discover too late that the boat was not what they were lead to believe were the attribution. Many people desire to own a ChrisCraft, PenYan, Lyman, Alberg, Alden, Rhodes, S&S, Mason, Atkins, Garden, etc. designed and built boats. There have been a number of threads in "Building & Repair" where people have questioned whether they really have acquired what they had been told they acquired.

For me personally, that is the most irritating aspect of maintaining my father's legacy - separating the lies from the truth. I have no problem with someone stating that a boat was based on or derived from one of Al's designs. I have major problems when I can't match up a boat's description with anything in my files. What is most painful is when the Buyer says they bought the boat because Al designed it. If I don't have the plans, then Al didn't design it.

Long Beach Yacht Sales is currently advertising a "43' 1967 Mason/Pacific Enterprises Cutter" for $119,000. They claim that Al designed the boat in 1958 and it was built in 1967 of fiberglass in Taiwan. There is no such design in Al's files. He designed two Mason 43s - one in 1954 of steel in Holland and one in 1978 of fiberglass in Taiwan.

As far as I'm concerned, the only reason they are falsely claiming Al designed the boat is so they can charge more money for it and deliberately deceive buyers. I really hate having to tell people they were lied to and spent more money than they needed to spend for a boat.

Thus, if you decide to make substantial changes in a design, do everyone a favor and acknowledge that you "did your own thing" and not claim the boat was built as designed. This is not something exclusive to Al's work, every designer has had this problem for many decades. [There's a thread in B&R about a fellow who acquired what he was told was an "International Star" but is four feet too short to be a Star.]

In the "Adapting Designs" thread, the resulting boat should be described as "based on Glen-L Marine's Yukon and Argosy designs" but never as "a Glen-L Marine design." [Please don't take offense Tom, I'm only using this as an example!]

Purists want the real thing - there are plenty of other folks who just like a boat for its own individual merits. A little honesty in advertising would really be nice!

Anita

Ian McColgin
10-02-2002, 09:27 AM
Brava, Anita.

My own thought is that an outfit that lies about the design pedigry may also lie about the lay-up schedule, the quality of the chainplates, and much else. They deserve to be exposed.

A friend has ended the misrepresentaitons of the boat he got at a maratime academy auction - they called it LFH's 'Neria.' Not even close. Astounding that such an institution would participate in a fraud - in this case a good boat anyway.

paladin
10-02-2002, 09:33 AM
Hello Anita....
..and I would add......
That it is irritating to see something that you have designed in another designers portfolio as his exclusive idea or design and build a reputation of sorts for that particular work. Two different designers did that to my work. I did not take Westlawn or the YDI course to become a professional designer, and I have never sold or advertised a design for sale. I did do a lot of work and was one of the first to use computers in design. After Vietnem I had a lot of G.I. Bill left and decided to use it in this manner. I soon realized one of the "leaders" in the school courses was using students to develop innovative and interesting work and crediting himself for the results.......

Scott Rosen
10-02-2002, 10:58 AM
Good post, Anita. I've seen lots of 32 foot "Herreshoff H-28's." If LFH had wanted that design to be 32 feet on deck, he would have made it so. It's buyer beware when it comes to verifying the design.

mmd
10-02-2002, 12:42 PM
Misrepresentation and down-right fraud regarding designs is one of the reasons that us designers stipulate that when you buy a set of plans from us that you build ONLY ONE BOAT from the plans. If'n ya want a second, pay the small royalty fee. That way we assign it a sequential hull number and keep track of the boat for you. You wanna sell the boat in a few years, so you advertise it as the "MMD Gawdawfulboat 26, Hull #23" and the prospective client can call me to confirm that it really is a Gawdawfulboat, and I can tell him that yes, it was built to my plans by the Goode & Pricey Boatyard in 2002. The money spent on the royalty fee pays for the admin costs in keeping such records for a lifetime or two.

[ 10-02-2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

A. Mason
10-02-2002, 01:06 PM
Excellent point Michael!

Another reason for being accurate as to who designed the boat - when a current owner wants, or needs, to make repairs; or they want to do some restoration work on an older design - the plans are available to locate all those hidden items.

I've had far too many requests for plans for restoration work where I can't help the individual - the boat was not built to the plans.

When people buy plans from a designer and then do not followup by supplying the designer with info such as whether they actually built the boat; where the boat was built; photos of what it looks like; etc.; future owners are left adrift. Past history of a boat can sometimes be very important.

Boat designs are like children to a designer, at least they were to Al. Personally, I've always considered them siblings. Al was always interested in how his designs were fairing, where they were, how they were holding up after the passage of years, etc.

Al, and subsequently myself, feel really inadequate when we've had to say that we don't have a clue whether anyone built a particular design, and if they did, where the boat is today. I know where a few are today, and the sad fate of a few others, but for the vast majority I'm at a complete loss.

There's one boat located not far from where I live, and fortunately all ten owners over the last forty years have retained the original name of the boat. That's made it a lot easier to assist when asked.

In another situation, the original owner had a devastating house fire and lost all their photos of the boat under construction. Because they had sent duplicates to Al, I was able to provide copies of the photos to the boat's new owners.

Anita

Tom Lathrop
10-02-2002, 01:31 PM
Anita,

In a perfect world, every plan sold would result in one boat built and the designer would be kept informed of its completion and whereabouts. As you say, that is not the case and most plans sold probably wind up on someones shelf where they are take out occasionally and daydreamed over. Is that so bad?

If most designers who issue plans for gainful employment had to depend on boats being built for their money, they would be even better candidates for the poor house. I'd much rather that the boats be built but, if someone enjoys just having and studying the plans and never builds anything, that's a better reward for both buyer and seller than most of the stuff sold for profit.

Once the plans are bought and leave the office, the designer is no longer in control. If you really get stiffed enough for a judge to see it, then sue. Otherwise, don't sweat the small stuff. It just angries the blood (Satchel Page).

Wild Dingo
10-02-2002, 01:59 PM
Good thoughts people... plagerism no matter if its from writting what others have written or taking a design and calling it your own is still plagerism...

Now Im wondering... not likely to do it but wonderin none the less... with that royalty fee the Michael spoke of for a subsequent build from the same plans {yeah like theyre gonna survive the drools foldings drools bendings drools rollings drools etcetc :rolleyes: } how is that estimated ie 10% of the initial plan costs? 20%? a nominal figure? $30 $100? who decides that figure?... Just curious people!

Second question... this matter of the sail number has had my curious... having recieved a set of plans how the blazes does one know what the sail number is??... Of cause one could always hazzard a guess that the boats never been built and call it sail number 1 or some such... but isnt that meant to come from the designer?... if so where on the plans would it be found??...

mmmmm maybe i do need them new bi focals after all? :eek:

Take it easy
Shane

A. Mason
10-02-2002, 02:24 PM
Hi Tom:

I have no problem with people buying plans to add to their collection. Al probably had one of the largest collections of other people's designs anywhere. I've been slowly trying to find a new home for all of those where people could have access to them for research, etc.

On the other hand, over the years I've received a number of design verification requests and I have a heck of a time confirming or denying the authenticity. The reason is that someone who bought a set of plans neglected to inform Al that they finally got around to building the design.

The fact that Al was a paper packrat has been invaluable. When someone is able to provide the name of the original owner/builder, I can at least search through the correspondence files and confirm that they purchased plans.

The tougher question to answer is "has anyone ever built this design?" More often than not, the best I can answer is that "x" number of sets of plans have been sold and your guess is as good as mine as to whether any were built, and where they are now.
----------------------------------
Wild Dingo:

Rates for subsquent builds varies, at least it did in Al's case. Most often it was roughly 1% of the selling price of the boat. This was assuming that the builder was building the second boat to sell. I can recall one design in Canada where the builder built three boats - one for himself and two to sell to finance his personal boat.

Of course there have been many occasions where builders have built additional boats without contacting the designer and paying a royalty fee. It gets nasty when they credit the designer in the advertising when the designer hasn't been paid.

Decades ago the designers would get even by blacklisting those builders and refusing to assist the buyers of those boats unless the buyer paid the full price for a complete set of plans. Designers were, and probably still are, a very tight knit group. If a designer got burned, he would pass the word along to everyone else so the rest could avoid falling into the same trap.

Anita

Meerkat
10-02-2002, 04:26 PM
FWIW, on the Whilly Boat plans I just bought from the WB store, I got two different comments on building additional boats. The WB store wants the full plans purchase price for each additional boat while Mr. Oughtred says 2.5% of the finished boat's selling price is due him (this is for subsequent boats, not the first one).

I don't think smaller non-class boats built to plans have sail numbers. OTOH, a friend bought Eun Mara plans and had to wait for a letter from Scotland telling her what her sail number was.

Meerkat
10-02-2002, 04:28 PM
Anita, was the Taiwanese Mason 44 the aft-cabin, aft-cockpit boat built by Pacific Asian Enterprises (PAE) with the clever offset companionway? I lusted for that boat in my innocent youth when I had no real idea of what such a beauty would cost smile.gif

rkrough
10-02-2002, 08:15 PM
Wait till you get a angry phone call or a letter from someone or thier attorney complaining about your product. Problem is you didn't make it. You find out the General Contractor had another source make it cheaper from inferior material and told the customer it is your product and pocketed the difference. I usually get 2 of those a year.

Rich

Norske3
09-17-2003, 09:22 PM
ANITA MASON...where are you?..it's been awhile...you were doing a book on your Father I believe.

D Gobby
09-17-2003, 09:59 PM
Norske3 I've been wondering about whats up with Anita myself. I'm building one of her fathers designs a 15' daysailor. I've sent some e-mails with pictures showing construction. I have not recived a response back from her in months. It would be nice to hear from her. Maybe Shane knows whats up with her.

Darrel

Dave Fleming
09-17-2003, 10:13 PM
Anita, good lady that she is, from last I heard had some health problems.
Let us all wish her well and hope to see her posting in the Forums soon.