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Paul Pless
11-18-2009, 08:35 AM
The pirates were repelled by ship security personell this time.



The United States Navy Central Command said four suspected pirates in a skiff came within 300 yards of the Maersk Alabama at 6.30 a.m. Wednesday about 600 miles off the northeast coast of Somalia as it headed for the Kenyan port of Mombasa.
But a security team on board the Maersk Alabama responded with small-arms fire, long-range acoustical devices painful to the human ear and evasive maneuvers to thwart the attack, the navy said.

“Due to Maersk Alabama following maritime industry’s best practices such as embarking security teams, the ship was able to prevent being successfully attacked by pirates,” said Vice Adm. Bill Gortney, the commander of the Central Command. “This is a great example of how merchant mariners can take pro-active action to prevent being attacked.”
No injuries or damage were reported, the Navy said.

Tylerdurden
11-18-2009, 08:45 AM
OMG!:eek:

They used firearms.;)

paladin
11-18-2009, 10:15 AM
M-79's am more better...

LeeG
11-18-2009, 10:26 AM
M-79's am more better...

would they explode impacting the water?

wizbang 13
11-18-2009, 10:33 AM
disco /rap bomb

Tylerdurden
11-18-2009, 10:50 AM
I am thinking a pair of 4kw lasers would do the trick. Burn a few holes in em' and they might think twice.

Paul Pless
11-18-2009, 11:12 AM
M-79's am more better...


disco /rap bomb


I am thinking a pair of 4kw lasers would do the trick. Burn a few holes in em' and they might think twice.

call me old fashioned

http://www.defendingthetruth.com/members/tadpole256-albums-navy-stuff-picture463-weapons-qualification-fire-browning-m2-heavy-machine-gun.jpg

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 12:33 PM
I expect a .50 cal would work pretty good...way more range than anything that can use a bouncy boat as a platform...and cheap compared

switters
11-18-2009, 01:55 PM
It worked once and may work a few more times, and then it escalates. And then the bloody red rag is going to fly, no quarter given if they meet resistance. It does not matter that they have never read Dafoe, they will soon reach that conclusion on their own.

There are several reasons the Golden age of piracy (1650-1720) ended, the one most overlooked is that there were new jobs to be found. What started the Golden Age of Piracy? A lot of single men with not much to work for anyway suddenly lost their jobs via the Spanish.

If one reads history, it is amazing what "most" men will endure in labor to feed themselves and hope for the best for their family. There will always be a number of outlaws, but given the choice, which does not exist in somalia, then "most" men earn their daily bread under the guidelines of the golden rule.

When I say most, I mean your 80 percent or so that is not criminal or lazy.

Yes, I cheer when the pirates are defeated, but it is a short lived victory if the underlying cause is not addressed.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 01:59 PM
It worked once and may work a few more times, and then it escalates. And then the bloody red rag is going to fly, no quarter given if they meet resistance. It does not matter that they have never read Dafoe, they will soon reach that conclusion on their own.

There are several reasons the Golden age of piracy (1650-1720) ended, the one most overlooked is that there were new jobs to be found. What started the Golden Age of Piracy? A lot of single men with not much to work for anyway suddenly lost their jobs via the Spanish.

If one reads history, it is amazing what "most" men will endure in labor to feed themselves and hope for the best for their family. There will always be a number of outlaws, but given the choice, which does not exist in somalia, then "most" men earn their daily bread under the guidelines of the golden rule.

When I say most, I mean your 80 percent or so that is not criminal or lazy.

Yes, I cheer when the pirates are defeated, but it is a short lived victory if the underlying cause is not addressed.

I believe your alarmist position is wrong...

willmarsh3
11-18-2009, 02:17 PM
The captain in the first hijacking is coming out with a book on the ordeal soon or so I'm told.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6659149.html

switters
11-18-2009, 02:20 PM
I believe your alarmist position is wrong...

Bring a case of beer and an afternoon to kill and I will give you an interesting history lesson. Pirate history is one of my passions.

There are several new books out about pirates, out of all of them I like Zacks the best, he does not deal with pirate history in general but picks a certain story line and follows through with it. Some of the other by Benerson Little, David Cordingly etc are all recycling Gosse and Dafoe.

So Gosse or Defoe would be some good ones to read also, and they are old enough that most are used and cheap on amazon.

A O Exquemeline, who was there for the sack of Panama with Morgan, is a good read, especially if one notes where the men came from who conducted the raid on the spanish.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 02:25 PM
be careful...I may take you up on that...(it'll be soda pop for me though)

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 02:26 PM
but to carry your argument to the next step...are you suggesting no one should resist...just give up???

switters
11-18-2009, 03:02 PM
Not give up, but redirect the money being paid. A pirate gang just got 3.3 million dollars from Spain. What if half the money had been paid in food development, fisheries management, education and health. That would be enough for several families to live a comfortable life. Instead the money goes to the backers of these expeditions and their local warlords who hand out the funds from backers. The pirates themselves are still being exploited by others who are driven by greed more than hunger. There is no easy solution, escalating the violence is a poor one.

The ultimate solution would be to have a single nation, England, France, Spain, UAE whatever and go into somalia with the intent to colonize and then leave in in twenty years. With a reasonable amount of capitol, security and most of all, a plan with an end game. Their reward if they do it right would be a country that would become an exclusive trading partner. Granted, the graft possible is pretty bad, but no where near as bad as the graft right now. I have heard that negotiators are getting a third of the ransom. These negotiators are not native somalies, they are UK and Russian lawyers, probably some from the good ol US of A, I dont know. It is only going to get more expensive as time goes on.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
11-18-2009, 03:06 PM
I have always thought that arming the vessels with skilled marksman would be effective, and relatively cheap. A large vessel is a very stable long range gun platform, unlike the attacking skiffs. Like shooting fish in a barrel, before the defenders are even within range. I don't think the pirates can escalate this unless they have accurate, shoulder launched bazookas/RPGs that they can launch from farther away than the range of the defender's weapons, which would mean something on the order of TOW missiles or Stingers, which are very expensive. In that event, they defeat their purpose, going directly to an attack resulting in a possible sinking, without extracting a ransom. They are after money, not political terrorism.

Note that later in the article, they noted that the American vessels were willing to arm themselves, but other countries were repulsed. Another vote in favor of our gun culture, I mean tradition.

As my father would say, "Damn right."


"This is a great example of how merchant mariners can take proactive action to prevent being attacked and why we recommend that ships follow industry best practices if they're in high-risk areas," Gortney said in a statement.
However, Roger Middleton, a piracy expert at the London-based think tank Chatham House, said the international maritime community was still "solidly against" armed guards aboard vessels at sea, but that American ships have taken a different line than the rest of the international community.
"Shipping companies are still pretty much overwhelmingly opposed to the idea of armed guards," Middleton said. "Lots of private security companies employee people who don't have maritime experience. Also, there's the idea that it's the responsibility of states and navies to provide security. I would think it's a step backward if we start privatizing security of the shipping trade."


Now, the issue will be the jeopardy of small vessels like pleasure yachts transiting that area. I think the Navy should put together some Q-ships, wolves in sheep's clothing, perhaps a 50 footer sailboat with automatic .50s or 30 caliber chain gun or gattling gun, decoy the pirates in, then sink them.

Kaa
11-18-2009, 03:06 PM
The ultimate solution would be to have a single nation, England, France, Spain, UAE whatever and go into somalia with the intent to colonize and then leave in in twenty years.

Looking at Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention the previous incursions into Somalia, this seems like an exceedingly bad idea.

Kaa

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 03:08 PM
Not give up, but redirect the money being paid. A pirate gang just got 3.3 million dollars from Spain. What if half the money had been paid in food development, fisheries management, education and health. That would be enough for several families to live a comfortable life. Instead the money goes to the backers of these expeditions and their local warlords who hand out the funds from backers. The pirates themselves are still being exploited by others who are driven by greed more than hunger. There is no easy solution, escalating the violence is a poor one.

The ultimate solution would be to have a single nation, England, France, Spain, UAE whatever and go into somalia with the intent to colonize and then leave in in twenty years. With a reasonable amount of capitol, security and most of all, a plan with an end game. Their reward if they do it right would be a country that would become an exclusive trading partner. Granted, the graft possible is pretty bad, but no where near as bad as the graft right now. I have heard that negotiators are getting a third of the ransom. These negotiators are not native somalies, they are UK and Russian lawyers, probably some from the good ol US of A, I dont know. It is only going to get more expensive as time goes on.

A good thought but not possible to facilitate at the moment...only after undisputed defeat of some of the gangs...we can only be kind after standing on the chest of that enemy

yes...it would work but that is getting the cart ahead of the horse...we can't shingle the roof before the rafters are up

switters
11-18-2009, 03:49 PM
Looking at Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention the previous incursions into Somalia, this seems like an exceedingly bad idea.

Kaa

Agreed, akin to putting out a fire with dynamite. But the staus quo blows and the current leaders of that corner of the world are not interested in development.

Any ideas?

Kaa
11-18-2009, 03:54 PM
Any ideas?

Yes. Each people has exactly the government it deserves. Let them sort out their own problems, especially since they are of their own making.

If they come attack our ships, shoot 'em.

Kaa

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 04:08 PM
Yes. Each people has exactly the government it deserves. Let them sort out their own problems, especially since they are of their own making.

If they come attack our ships, shoot 'em.

Kaa

certainly the traditional approach

what recourses does that country have anyway?

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
11-18-2009, 04:36 PM
Also, I don't agree with just repelling the pirates, they will just move on to a more vulnerable target. If they attack, shoot back hard and fast, kill them. This will offer some deterrence, and that is valuable. At the very least capture them, but the merchant ships are not set up for that.

When someone tries to rob you or a bank or store, are they just turned away, with no consequences? No. If that were the case, a lot more people would try robbery. Same thing.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 04:42 PM
Also, I don't agree with just repelling the pirates, they will just move on to a more vulnerable target. If they attack, shoot back hard and fast, kill them. This will offer some deterrence, and that is valuable. At the very least capture them, but the merchant ships are not set up for that.

When someone tries to rob you or a bank or store, are they just turned away, with no consequences? No. If that were the case, a lot more people would try robbery. Same thing.

it's a good point...

no one is yelling that if we give the robbers more beer they will stop robbing banks

switters
11-18-2009, 04:45 PM
it's a good point...

no one is yelling that if we give the robbers more beer they will stop robbing banks


if this were a valid comparison the tellers at our bank would be armed.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
11-18-2009, 05:04 PM
if this were a valid comparison the tellers at our bank would be armed.

No, the banks would have armed guards. Hey, some high-risk banks DO have armed guards. Whadaya know.

Armed merchant ships have better odds against pirates in skiffs than those armed guards have against bank robbers. The guards have less warning and don't have the advantage of range and superior gun platforms.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 05:20 PM
if this were a valid comparison the tellers at our bank would be armed.

they are...just not generally with guns

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 05:22 PM
No, the banks would have armed guards. Hey, some high-risk banks DO have armed guards. Whadaya know.

Armed merchant ships have better odds against pirates in skiffs than those armed guards have against bank robbers. The guards have less warning and don't have the advantage of range and superior gun platforms.

I've been in a few banks in both Brasil and Argentina...always an armed guard...sometimes more than one

also...consider that EVERY casino in this country has armed guards in their in-house banks...there are a lot of casinos BTW

ishmael
11-18-2009, 05:49 PM
Hm. Surrender knowing the company will pay the ransom, or fight back? My first reaction, given how rag tag the pirates are, is to mount .50s along the rails.

One of the reasons Hitler, a better armed pirate, skirted Switzerland was that he knew the Swiss had every able bodied man armed, and would fight. He called them "The Little Hedgehog." I'm sure, given they were doing much of Nazi Germany's banking, there were other reasons. LOL.

As to the pirates raising the bloody rag of no quarter, well, let'em try it against a well armed ship.

That said, I'm not without sympathy for these blokes. Most are probably just trying to get by in the mess that is Somalia. Sorting that out, putting people back to work, would go a long way toward solving the problem.

purri
11-18-2009, 06:23 PM
AFAIK the "pirates" are dispossessed fishermen due to the activities of (principally) Spanish and Korean factory ships (trawlers).

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 06:37 PM
AFAIK the "pirates" are dispossessed fishermen due to the activities of (principally) Spanish and Korean factory ships (trawlers).

okay...what it sounds like you're saying is that Korea is a proxy pirate...is that it?

jack grebe
11-18-2009, 06:51 PM
four men...........in a skiff................600 MILES off the coast?

Did I miss something?

The skiff most likely didn't get there by itself.
Sink the mother ship and just put 1 round into
the skiff.........they can't bail forever:rolleyes:

BarnacleGrim
11-18-2009, 07:07 PM
The ultimate solution would be to have a single nation, England, France, Spain, UAE whatever and go into somalia with the intent to colonize and then leave in in twenty years. With a reasonable amount of capitol, security and most of all, a plan with an end game. Their reward if they do it right would be a country that would become an exclusive trading partner.
Sure, the best thing for the Somalis would be for the Britain and Italy to finish what they started. I don't like the idea of protectionism, the country would develop a lot faster if it was left open for the west to establish industries and create jobs, even if it has some downsides. Or we would create a new Greenland, fairly well off, but dead in the water.

It's a lot easier and cheaper to just shoot the crap out of the pirates, though. :(

Lack of nautical experience shouldn't be a problem, aren't many of these mercenaries ex-military? Should be plenty of marines to go around, if not, private training should be simple enough if there is demand.

purri
11-18-2009, 07:13 PM
okay...what it sounds like you're saying is that Korea is a proxy pirate...is that it?

Yep, Both nations are fishing the crap out of antarctic and sub-antarctic waters. In abt 2007 an OZ frigate chased one so far that the Seth Efrican navy caught it in their maritime zone.

Economic piracy is BIG business.

BrianW
11-18-2009, 10:01 PM
Given the history of this particular ship and company, I'd say they had no choice but to go armed. The pirates are not likely to forget what happened last time.

Might not be right for everyone else, but it was right for them.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2009, 10:18 PM
oh, this is the one that got the pirates shot?

BrianW
11-18-2009, 10:21 PM
oh, this is the one that got the pirates shot?

Roger.

OconeePirate
11-18-2009, 11:23 PM
So if this is a reaction to Spanish and Korean activities that is now affecting U.S. interests.... why not make it clear that Somali attacks on Spanish and Korean ships will be ignored while attacks on vessels flying U.S. colors will be met with merciless force?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-19-2009, 06:21 AM
Sure, the best thing for the Somalis would be for the Britain and Italy to finish what they started.

I was there, in Mogadishu, at the time (1960) when the ten year adminstration of Somalia by Italy under a UN mandate came to an end.

There was no particular reason to assume that Somalia would collapse at once, but the signs were certainly present.

My late father was the British Council representative; owing to US support for Ethiopia in the Ogaden dispute (Ethiopia was Christian and ruled by Hailie Selassie at the time...) diplomatic relations with the western powers were cut almost at once so he became the Ukl charge d'affaires as well, until his office was burned down and his house attacked (my mother and we children had already left ) so he had to give up.

The inevitable military strong man, Siad Barre, invited the Russians in, they built a naval base to counter Diego Garcia but did nothing else apart from ruling out any western development aid...

BarnacleGrim
11-19-2009, 08:06 AM
At the very least capture them, but the merchant ships are not set up for that.
I guess it would take some serious "economic incentive" for the shipowners to equip the ships with brigs, but are we really prepared to turn over safe passage at sea to a bunch of bounty hunters?

And though I have a few years left before making third mate, and even more to master, I wouldn't authorize killing off pirates, not from a merchant ship. I believe in due process, even for pirates.

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 08:15 AM
I guess it would take some serious "economic incentive" for the shipowners to equip the ships with brigs, but are we really prepared to turn over safe passage at sea to a bunch of bounty hunters?

And though I have a few years left before making third mate, and even more to master, I wouldn't authorize killing off pirates, not from a merchant ship. I believe in due process, even for pirates.

My Father used to say "Do something even it you do it wrong...but do SOMETHING!"

so what something do you have in mind which will help this year?

BarnacleGrim
11-19-2009, 08:28 AM
My Father used to say "Do something even it you do it wrong...but do SOMETHING!"

so what something do you have in mind which will help this year?
I believe Swedish gun control extends to Swedish flagged ships, so if I ever find myself in the Gulf of Aden on one I guess I'll just have to go hide in the steering gear.

Perhaps we need to include piracy in SOLAS?

Kaa
11-19-2009, 10:48 AM
wouldn't authorize killing off pirates, not from a merchant ship. I believe in due process, even for pirates.

Well, no one's suggesting the merchant ships go hunt the pirates. But killing pirates in the process of defending the ship from attack seems perfectly reasonable to me.

As to due process, note that it's due process of law. And while I am fuzzy on details, I think the international maritime law doesn't look too kindly on pirates to the extent that I suspect the master of the ship can more or less execute on the spot those captured in the act of piracy.

Kaa

switters
11-19-2009, 10:48 AM
for those interested in the situation the following is an article from Yemen, and gives a local perspective to the piracy and the blow back.

http://www.yementimes.com/defaultdet.aspx?SUB_ID=33095

and I'm not against arming ships or giving them the option to do so, but I don't feel it is not a long term solution.

Kaa
11-19-2009, 10:51 AM
...and I'm not against arming ships or giving them the option to do so, but I don't feel it is not a long term solution.

The long-term solution is making Somalia a country again. Who, do you think, should be in charge of that?

Kaa

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 10:53 AM
not a long term solution...If I can exaggerate a bit for effect: cutting firewood for the winter is not a long term solution...bringing iit into the house and burning it in a stove is closer to the mark

point is, for the moment...shoot the pirates and at the same time work on a better solution

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-19-2009, 10:53 AM
"Hagi also said 90 percent of the fish captured in Somali waters are taken by illegal international fishing boats. For example last month, he said, 35 Spanish fishing boats were sent to Somali waters under the guise of fighting piracy. "

:eek:

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 10:55 AM
"Hagi also said 90 percent of the fish captured in Somali waters are taken by illegal international fishing boats. For example last month, he said, 35 Spanish fishing boats were sent to Somali waters under the guise of fighting piracy. "

:eek:

what do you see as a solution?

Kaa
11-19-2009, 10:57 AM
"Hagi also said 90 percent of the fish captured in Somali waters are taken by illegal international fishing boats. For example last month, he said, 35 Spanish fishing boats were sent to Somali waters under the guise of fighting piracy. "

I feel the need for a large grain of salt to go with this statement...

Kaa

switters
11-19-2009, 11:04 AM
The long-term solution is making Somalia a country again. Who, do you think, should be in charge of that?

Kaa

Israel.

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 11:14 AM
oh yeah...that'll work!

switters
11-19-2009, 11:17 AM
Any one but US, then

LeeG
11-19-2009, 11:22 AM
four men...........in a skiff................600 MILES off the coast?

Did I miss something?

The skiff most likely didn't get there by itself.
Sink the mother ship and just put 1 round into
the skiff.........they can't bail forever:rolleyes:

that's a big gas tank

Kaa
11-19-2009, 11:27 AM
Any one but US, then

Did "any one" express any interest?

Remember, you'll be sending in young kids with guns. Some, maybe many, of them will die -- the Somalis will be hostile and they are well-armed.

Kaa

George.
11-19-2009, 12:01 PM
Maybe Spain will take Somalia in exchange for overfishing rights. In 20 years the fish are gone and the Spanish get out. By then the US will be able to rain death rays from the sky unto any nuisance Third World individuals it desires.

Paul Pless
11-19-2009, 12:04 PM
By then the US will be able to rain death rays from the sky unto any nuisance Third World individuals it desires.I can hardly wait.

BarnacleGrim
11-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Well, no one's suggesting the merchant ships go hunt the pirates. But killing pirates in the process of defending the ship from attack seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I don't oppose the use of lethal force for defending ship and crew.

I was referring to the idea of killing them off while flying to keep them from going after someone else. Making an example of them.

George.
11-19-2009, 01:22 PM
Why not keep shooting if they flee? Once you have started shooting, you have obviously concluded that they are pirates. That does not change if they turn chicken and run for it. You'll never have less reasonable doubt to apply a capital penalty then in a case like that.

ishmael
11-19-2009, 01:41 PM
I once had an argument with a friend about home invasions and weapons. We were living in the city, and it was topical. A friendly argument, he was of the mind that you just let a burgler come into your home without resistance and let them take what they want. I was of the mind that if someone breaches the threshold uninvited you shoot them, and ask questions later.

Neither is a perfect solution. When younger I'd have friends arrive unannounced at all times of day or night, looking for a bunk and breakfast. Good not to be trigger happy.

Toss a couple of decades in, maybe a wife and children, and the picture is different.

Phillip Allen
11-19-2009, 01:54 PM
if someone breaks into my house tonight...what is likely to happen is a physical fight envolving whatever club comes to hand...I don't keep guns loaded and it seems unlikely I would be better off trying to load one than I would by attacking directly with a fireplace poker or some such...such a fight, if it were to happen would be short and violent