I don't want to build something I can't launch/retrieve.

[Reardon]

New forumite here.

I'm a dad with two (8/9yo) boys.

In choosing a design to start building this winter, I've run into a question that I don't have the experience to answer myself.

Is it possible to singlehandedly launch and retrieve a motorless sailboat without it being an unpleasant experience? Most of the designs that I'm interested in are too heavy to cartop. There are some designs in the 200lb area that we could carry from the trailer to the beach by hand, but they aren't my favorites.

Let me give some more detail. I'd be launching into the Puget Sound. They boat launch is at a beach. I'm thinking maybe I could beach the boat... back down the ramp... get back in the boat... row onto the trailer as far as possible... brace the boat somehow... get onto the trailer... and winch it up. I'm not sure how frustrating this will be for me, or anyone else who wants to use the ramp behind me.

An example of the type of design that I'm considering is Vivier's Elorn.

If ramp launching isn't possible, then I'm also considering building two small boats that would be easy to carry from the trailer, but this wouldn't be ideal... at least until the boys have a little more experience.

My ideal solution would be to figure out a smart/fast way to launch/retrieve by myself.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[outofthenorm]

Beach dolly. Big tires. Light weight.

http://www.ghboats.com/dolly.shtm
http://www.ghboats.com/images/options/dolly/dolly1.jpg

[Paul Pless]

I don't see why you'd have any trouble launching and retrieving this boat from a normal small boat trailer at any typical boat ramp.
Should be a breeze, with a little practice.

http://www.vivierboats.com/Img/elorn1.jpg

[Yeadon]

Where will you be launching, specifically? Myself and a few other guys here in Seattle do exactly what you're looking to do. As a group, we've definitely worked through the small boat launch learning curve.

[Reardon]

Where will you be launching, specifically? Myself and a few other guys here in Seattle do exactly what you're looking to do. As a group, we've definitely worked through the small boat launch learning curve.

Kayak point. (Between Marysville and Camano)

[Brian Palmer]

I've launched and retrieved our Elver (20 ft, 1200 lbs) with just me and my two boys (now 11 and 8). No engine, just one big sweep.

Vivier's Elorn should be a snap, especially if you have guides to keep it centered on the trailer when you retrieve it. Kids can also be surprisingly helpful at times, if not always so.

Brian

[Reardon]

I've launched and retrieved our Elver (20 ft, 1200 lbs) with just me and my two boys (now 11 and 8). No engine, just one big sweep.

Vivier's Elorn should be a snap, especially if you have guides to keep it centered on the trailer when you retrieve it. Kids can also be surprisingly helpful at times, if not always so.

Brian

Out of curiosity, what was your experience like retrieving your Elver?
I considered building a Great Pelican, since it is about the most boat that I could build in the space available to me, but thought it might be too frustrating to launch/retrieve until my boys were in their teens.

http://www.platypusboats.com/

[boylesboats]

a electic trollin' motor will help ease the launchin' to and from ramp... It doesn't have to permanment mounted

[Thorne]

More info on the requirements for the boat will be needed.

Yeadon and his friends know the drill quite well. Lightweight open sail and oar boats, with the heavy stuff all detachable (outboards, coolers, masts/spars/sails, etc) will certainly be possible to pull up onto the beach.

Using long fenders or foam rollers, boats can be moved up the beach, then winched onto the trailer with the bow winch. No big deal if you keep things light.

I solo launch and retrieve a non-motorized sail and oar boat the same weight at Elorn (350lbs) all the time. Sometimes from ramps and other times from beaches. Occasionally I have to wade a bit far into the water, but rarely have to "swim" the boat onto the trailer.

Rollers, long winch on trailer = no problem. If you need to transport the boat 500+ yards over rocks or other obstacles, a completely different problem.

[SBrookman]

Until this year I had never trailered a boat, previous boats were either too large or fit on top of the car. But since the sharpie (>300#) needed to get in the water somehow I took Thorne's advice and bought a decent trailer (Trailex (http://www.trailex.com/)) and got some advice on how to maneuver the dang thing (also from this forum), and after a few less than stellar launches I'm now pretty comfortable launching and even backing it into the garage bay.
http://otterwater.com/Sharpie/NovTrailer.jpg
Don't let trailering discourage you or make you compromise your choice in boats.
As for getting it back on the trailer, haven't had to get past the knees wet. Too cold for you, you could always use waders.

[wizbang 13]

Ummm... You want to launch from a "beach" or at a "boat launch ramp"?

[James McMullen]

Elorn is pretty much the same size as Rowan or Dragonfly. I've trailered these boats all over the Sound and even as far afield as the Great Salt Lake in Utah. You don't even need a particularly large car for a boat like this, as they are very light for their size. Your whole boat will weigh less than just the outboard motor of the kind of boat a lot of folks trailer.

Along with Tim Yeadon, let me invite you to come check out how our local Sail & Oar Cruising Cabal does it. It really ain't no nothin' to trailer a boat as light as this.

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/26538/2380197670088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2380197670088484686YfITzu) http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/25074/2706614830088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2706614830088484686uREsRt)
http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/8627/2547681220088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2547681220088484686sqqwNr)

[Yeadon]

I almost exclusively beach my peapod, back the trailer down the ramp, then either row my peapod (or line it over) to the trailer. I pull the boat up onto the trailer, winch the last six inches or so, then pull the boat out of the water. I do this by myself 98 percent of the time. I almost never use the docks, unless I'm forced to do so. Too many yahoos on the docks. I'd say I'm quicker to load and unload than most powerboats.

I've also gotten pretty good at rowing up the end of the trailer, hopping off the bow onto the trailer, and walking the boat up. This takes a bit of stability on the part of your boat.

I'd say it took four or five trips to the ramp to get the hang of the process.

Two things that I recommend ... making a small flatbed support for your keel. It'll give you a platform to get you out and around on your trailer. Sometimes you just have to go get your boat and wrestle it a bit. The second thing, put a UHMW skid shoe on the keel. It'll make your keel nice and greasy, and easy to slide up onto the keel supports.

I generally avoid outside help at the ramp unless I know the person, and even then ...

[Reardon]

More info on the requirements for the boat will be needed.

Eventually I want to build a 16' Great Pelican, but thought that it would be too much to single-handedly retrieve. My thought was to build a small open boat to tide me over until the boys were a little older and could be of greater assistance, however the encouragement I'm getting from this thread may sway me into starting the Great Pelican now. I've also been thinking about a boat of my own design that would be close to a Dion Swampscott. (I'll be posting for advice in this design on another thread).

Thanks to you and the others for the assistance.

[Bobcat]

I dry sail a Bolger Bobcat, weight probably about 350 pounds all up. I use a homemade dolly on a concrete ramp. The dolly was wheelbarrow wheels. I used to use a block and tackle to pull her up the ramp, but lately have been doing so by hand.

[Yeadon]

Anybody have contact info for the Pelican fleet that looks after Pelican Beach on Cypress Island? I bet they could answer a lot of your questions. A few months ago, I launched alongside a Great Pelican, then cruised along with them up through Bellingham Channel.

[Reardon]

Anybody have contact info for the Pelican fleet that looks after Pelican Beach on Cypress Island? I bet they could answer a lot of your questions. A few months ago, I launched alongside a Great Pelican, then cruised along with them up through Bellingham Channel.

I don't know why I didn't think of that. I'm not sure about the Cypress fleet, but there are other fleets that have Yahoo groups. I think that there might even be one in my neck of the woods. Thanks for the idea.

[MiddleAgesMan]

I used to launch and retrieve my 21' fiberglass Dovekie by myself...nothing to it, really. The boat was delivered on a custom trailer designed by the builder (Edey & Duff) that let you launch without wetting the wheels. This was possible due to the fact that the carpeted bunks were pretty low to the ground and the sharpie hull was dead flat. A more conventional design in the 15 to 20 foot range might require wetting a good bit of the trailer but that's what they make galvanizing for.

[epoxyboy]

How do you single handed launchers cope with cross winds at the ramp? With the Pathfinder (5metres, 300kg) if there is any amount of cross wind a single handed retrieve is almost impossible - as soon as the bow hits one of the keel rollers on the trailer, the stern swings around and things get messy real fast. It takes an extra person upwind with a line to the stern to keep things seemly. And before you ask, no there isnt another ramp i can use, and yes the mizzen is furled when I try this.
Launching isnt a problem as the boat is off the trailer and afloat before it has a chance to go sideways.

Pete

[Reardon]

How do you single handed launchers cope with cross winds at the ramp? With the Pathfinder (5metres, 300kg) if there is any amount of cross wind a single handed retrieve is almost impossible - as soon as the bow hits one of the keel rollers on the trailer, the stern swings around and things get messy real fast. It takes an extra person upwind with a line to the stern to keep things seemly. And before you ask, no there isnt another ramp i can use, and yes the mizzen is furled when I try this.
Launching isnt a problem as the boat is off the trailer and afloat before it has a chance to go sideways.

Pete

The pathfinder has a flat bottom, no? Would there be any way to apply a sacrificial bottom or rub strakes on the bottom, and then "beach" it onto the ramp, and then lift it up and winch on to the trailer?

[Thorne]

How do you single handed launchers cope with cross winds at the ramp? With the Pathfinder (5metres, 300kg) if there is any amount of cross wind a single handed retrieve is almost impossible - as soon as the bow hits one of the keel rollers on the trailer, the stern swings around and things get messy real fast. It takes an extra person upwind with a line to the stern to keep things seemly. And before you ask, no there isnt another ramp i can use, and yes the mizzen is furled when I try this.
Launching isnt a problem as the boat is off the trailer and afloat before it has a chance to go sideways.

Pete

First, put a 2x12 carpeted plank on the tongue of the trailer, as this allows you to get out to the boat without having to do a high-wire act on the slippery metal tongue. If you don't have keel rollers, consider doing the same for the full length of the trailer.
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs005.snc1/2813_95239238645_519763645_2552546_2925496_n.jpg

Next, either make your own guide-on posts or buy 'em. Great place to move the trailer lights to for better visibility, also.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat21276-cat21296-cat21382&id=0030707017777a&navCount=4&podId=0030707&parentId=&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IK&rid=&parentType=&indexId=cat21382&hasJS=true

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_017777_imageset_01?$main-Large$

[Bobcat]

I put uprights on my dolly to guide the boat onto the dolly. In cross winds it was difficult to hold the dolly, pull the boat and guide the boat onto the bunks. The uprights have made a huge difference

[James McMullen]

If there's still wind, why are you at the take-out ramp instead of still sailin'? :D

My boat is light enough that if there's a lot of cross-wind. I just don't back the trailer down as far into the water and use the winch to pull the boat up more. Once there's enough of the boat on the trailer bunk, it doesn't blow around too much and I can just guide it back into alignment by hand until it's home.

[pipefitter]

I launch from the beach almost always. I have a tilt trailer that becomes it's own ramp of sorts. It hinges in the middle so that it lifts the boat at the same time it is loading/unloading it. It works pretty well.
The tilt trailer makes it easier to load and unload single handed.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tigmaster41/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/splash9.jpg

[boylesboats]

I launch from the beach almost always. I have a tilt trailer that becomes it's own ramp of sorts. It hinges in the middle so that it lifts the boat at the same time it is loading/unloading it. It works pretty well.
The tilt trailer makes it easier to load and unload single handed.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tigmaster41/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/splash9.jpg

where its tilt at again? got any photo?

[Woxbox]

Absolutely jump right into the Pelican project. Launching and retrieving just takes a bit of practice. I used to set up and launch a 25' trimaran singlehanded. You'll find that one of the biggest determining factors is not the size of the boat, but how high the waterline is above the road -- because that's how much you have to sink the trailer to get the boat to float free. With its flat bottom, the Pelican will be a cinch. Selecting a trailer that carries the boat as low as possible helps, too. To get it back out, with a couple of guides on the trailer, you can just motor the boat (gently) up onto the bunks and then crank it the rest of the way up with the winch. Nothing to worry about.

Oh, and with heavier boats, chocks under the tow vehicle's wheels are advised. Otherwise you could wind up on another thread here....

[boylesboats]

Absolutely jump right into the Pelican project. Launching and retrieving just takes a bit of practice. I used to set up and launch a 25' trimaran singlehanded. You'll find that one of the biggest determining factors is not the size of the boat, but how high the waterline is above the road -- because that's how much you have to sink the trailer to get the boat to float free. With its flat bottom, the Pelican will be a cinch. Selecting a trailer that carries the boat as low as possible helps, too. To get it back out, with a couple of guides on the trailer, you can just motor the boat (gently) up onto the bunks and then crank it the rest of the way up with the winch. Nothing to worry about.

Oh, and with heavier boats, chocks under the tow vehicle's wheels are advised. Otherwise you could wind up on another thread here....

Ya know...
Some of these ramps around here get moss growing on it after being idle for quite some time... Last thing I needed is the vehicle's rear wheels at edge of water.. spinning on slippery moss to pull the trailer with boat on it... no one is around to help...:eek: not everybody have 4 X 4's...

[Yeadon]

Salish Sea ramps are never idle.

[pipefitter]

Here is something similar in use.

http://www.tracertrailers.com.au/web_images/new%20loading%20trailer%20photo%20010%20(Small).jp g

http://www.tracertrailers.com.au/web_images/new%20loading%20trailer%20photo%20006%20(Small).jp g

[Sayla]

A retrieve method.

I was a couple of hundred miles further up the coast the other day and there was a concrete boat ramp along an open beach, no one around, but there was a ute with boat trailer was parked nearby.

Out of the horizon came a boat - looked about fifteen foot, open skiff with a decent outboard. They (the two guys in the boat) approached the ramp fast, and when I thought they had better slow down they absolutely gunned it and then skidded two to three boat lengths up the ramp. It looked as though the boat had some type of nylon skid rails stuck on the bottom.

They stepped out on dry ground, got the car, very quickly hauled the boat up with an electric winch, one ratchet strap over, and drove off without looking back. I think the fish would have still been flailing about.

I stood there alone again at the beach, smiling about what I just saw out of nowhere, and pondering about the extended chore I undertake with packing and de-rigging the sailboat. I still can't get my head around those guys doing that so quick. It seemed like about one change of a traffic light or something.

[Brian Palmer]

Out of curiosity, what was your experience like retrieving your Elver?
I considered building a Great Pelican, since it is about the most boat that I could build in the space available to me, but thought it might be too frustrating to launch/retrieve until my boys were in their teens.

http://www.platypusboats.com/

It's not that hard and would be even easier if I finally get around to putting uprights on the trailer to keep the stern centered on the trailer. I get the bow on the trailer and pulled up to the winch. The stern is usually sill floating at this point (we have fairly steep ramps). I give my helper a stern line and a boat hook and show them how far to keep the side of the boat from the trailer fender. I then go back to the car and pull the boat and trailer slowly up the ramp. If I had uprights, I wouldn't need a helper at all.

I do have to get in the water, by the way, but I think that is pretty much normal for trailer sailing.

Brian

[epoxyboy]

Trailer has keel rollers the whole way and guide poles at the back and carpeted bunks under the first angled plank - once the boat is hitched up to the winch my 13yo boy can get it on the trailer - as long as there is somebody to stop it getting blown sideways. The guide poles dont get close to the boat until it is 1/3 of the way on though, and the problem is if I am trying to retrieve on my own I cant hold the boat straight and crank the winch, as those places are a good five metres apart. Maybe a set of those sprung V shaped arms with rollers on at the back of the trailer would help. A plank to walk on would definitely be an improvement though. Time to break out the angle grinder and welder again!

Pete

[QUOTE=Thorne;2390739]First, put a 2x12 carpeted plank on the tongue of the trailer, as this allows you to get out to the boat without having to do a high-wire act on the slippery metal tongue. If you don't have keel rollers, consider doing the same for the full length of the trailer.

Next, either make your own guide-on posts or buy 'em. Great place to move the trailer lights to for better visibility, also.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat21276-cat21296-cat21382&id=0030707017777a&navCount=4&podId=0030707&parentId=&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IK&rid=&parentType=&indexId=cat21382&hasJS=true

[Jlaup]

a electic trollin' motor will help ease the launchin' to and from ramp... It doesn't have to permanment mounted
I used an electric trolling motor and battery on my Beetle Cat for several years. Nice because it is quiet and it drove the 450# boat fine. But I realized that the motor weighed 45#s and the battery that again at least. It was a lot of weight hanging off the stern. Boat looked a bit like it was doing a wheelie. If you ended up becalmed the battery would need topping up overnight and if it blew enough that you wanted to douse sail it was a bit light on power. I replaced it with a 2 hp Honda 4 cycle. Much more power, 27#s, and easy to lift and stow under the deck. This solved the sheet fouling issue as well.
I think a Beetle Cat sized cat is a great boat for you. Easily trailered, mast stepping and rigging is a 20 minute exercise, really big feeling boat for its size and displacement. Joel White has the Marsh Cat available through WB. I'd do it in strip, rather than the cold-molded it is spec'ed at.
John

[boylesboats]

I used an electric trolling motor and battery on my Beetle Cat for several years. Nice because it is quiet and it drove the 450# boat fine. But I realized that the motor weighed 45#s and the battery that again at least. It was a lot of weight hanging off the stern. Boat looked a bit like it was doing a wheelie. If you ended up becalmed the battery would need topping up overnight and if it blew enough that you wanted to douse sail it was a bit light on power. I replaced it with a 2 hp Honda 4 cycle. Much more power, 27#s, and easy to lift and stow under the deck. This solved the sheet fouling issue as well.
I think a Beetle Cat sized cat is a great boat for you. Easily trailered, mast stepping and rigging is a 20 minute exercise, really big feeling boat for its size and displacement. Joel White has the Marsh Cat available through WB. I'd do it in strip, rather than the cold-molded it is spec'ed at.
John

That's the real down side about electric trolling motor, the battery weight.. if placed near centerboard may work out balance well.. again it have to be fully charged night before each outing..
And yes, a small gas outboard will be grand to use.. just drop it onto mount and go.. alway handy, stowed on board under thwart or deck

[MiddleAgesMan]

I launch from the beach almost always. I have a tilt trailer that becomes it's own ramp of sorts. It hinges in the middle so that it lifts the boat at the same time it is loading/unloading it. It works pretty well.
The tilt trailer makes it easier to load and unload single handed.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Etigmaster41/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/splash9.jpg

PF--would you please tell me the brand and model of your trailer? Most of the ones I've seen capable of handling the SSS18 are much too heavy duty--they are built for heavy fiberglass boats with heavy motors. Yours looks perfect--long enough and fairly light weight frame perfectly suited to that light boat.

[pipefitter]

MAM,

It is a Magic Tilt ( http://www.magictilt.com/ ) that I found at an equipment auction for $200.00 used. Actually bought two of them that were identical and sold the other that allowed me to not only recover the cost of mine, but also paid for new tires, lights and winch strap plus a few dollars in my pocket. I don't have the model# as all of that is faded but if you need it, I can measure the overall dimensions. It tracks well and has a decently soft ride on the bumps that doesn't send the whole works airborne.

I was going to build my own pimped out truss and girder version out of the anodized pipe I work with but then these came along so the instant fix won out.

Here is a little perspective shot from the rear that shows the smallish size of the trailer with the bunks extended beyond it. This works out well, MAM, as the first keel roller contacts well just before the bunks get under it just right. We have to remember that with reference to the engine placement of the Simmons, it can use a smaller trailer that would perhaps fit a 14ft boat otherwise.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tigmaster41/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/near2.jpg

[austin57]

greetings from another new post-er. like Reardon, I'm building a small row/sail boat (shellback dinghy) with my kids (son 13, dtr 12). we live in Kirkland and will be launching in lk Wash. would love to be in touch with the other seattle area rower/sailors who've figured out the launch/storage issues around here, as well as compare notes with Reardon as their build goes forward. good luck Reardon.
austin57

[Thorne]

Hook up with Yeadon here on the Forum, and some of the other Traditional Small Craft Association (TSCA) folks in your area. They host a number of casual events for rowing and sailing, and can be a great source of information on local resources, tools, building tips, etc.

They also have a Yahoo group - TSCA-Puget-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

[austin57]

Thanks Thorne - I'll check out the yahoogroup and touch bases with yeadon. austin57