The Tea Party is now a real party

[Norman Bernstein]

This in interesting... someone in FL has registered the 'Tea Party' as a real political party.

The implications? Who do they draw their support from? It's fashionable these days for people who formerly considered themselves Republicans to condemn the modern GOP as not much better than the Democrats... but just how many people like that are there... and does it mean, by definiton, that the draw for this third party simply becomes a subset of the present GOP? If the GOP itself has moved rightward in recent years, doesn't it imply that the Tea Party must, by definition, be even further right?

Secondly, what's the platform of the Tea Party? Judging from the public rallies and protests, the Tea Party people look like a collection of folks with a number of different parochial objectives... some are religious conservatives, battling abortion and same sex marriage. Some are economic conservatives, battling the government on size/spending issues. Some are libertarians... some are 2nd ammendment advocates...some are birthers... some are 9/11 truthers. Do all these perspectives coalesce into a recognizable movement with a set of common principles? And in large enough numbers to achieve poltical success?

Or do they just end up fractionalizing conservatism in general?



A DIFFERENT KIND OF 'TEA PARTY'.... For the better part of the year, talk of a right wing "Tea Party" has referred to gathering of far-right activists, protesting ... whatever it is the right is so worked up about at the time.

In Florida, it's taken on a different kind of meaning (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1109/A_Tea_Party_party_arrives_in_Florida.html?showall) .

A Florida conservative has registered an official "Tea Party" with the office of the Secretary of State, and is promising to run candidates against Republicans and Democrats in state and national races.

"The current system has become mired in the sludge of special interest money that seeks to control the leadership of both parties. It's time for real change," says Orlando lawyer Frederic O'Neal, the new party's chairman, who couldn't be reached immediately by phone, in a press release.

A spokeswoman for the Florida Secretary of State, Jennifer Davis, said the party had registered in August, and that its qualified candidates will appear on the ballot in the state.
As Chris Harris noted (http://mediamattersaction.org/blog/200911090004), "Republican lawmakers sensed they had a natural ally in the fight for Republican principles in opposition to President Obama's agenda. They were half right. While tea partiers are fervent opponents of Democrats, they feel no allegiance to the Republican Party. In fact, they're now one of its competitors."

Whether this amounts to much remains to be seen. Florida, like most states, has all kinds of minor parties that run candidates for various offices, but who have no meaningful impact on the electoral process. An Orlando lawyer can file the paperwork to start a new political party, but creating the infrastructure for a functional, effective political entity is extremely difficult -- especially when there's no larger, national party to help pull things together.

For that matter, even if other official Tea Parties were to spring up elsewhere, it's likely they could just endorse Republican Party candidates, rather than run candidates of their own.

But there's at least the potential for political relevance here. And if this were to catch on -- a big "if," to be sure -- it would signal a fairly significant problem for Republicans: how to keep a far-right party from losing even-further-right activists.

[Mrleft8]

Maybe they'll put biscuits in their eyes and go blind...

[htom]

The Tea Party's natural opponent is the two-faced Dysfunctional Abusive Nation and State Are Your Parent Party (that is, the Republicrats and the Demicans.)

[elf]

No need, Doug. They already are.

[Tylerdurden]

I guess Norman is sticking with more of the same party propaganda.

I guess they are perceived as a threat to the corruption Norman wholly supports.

[David W Pratt]

How come political parties are so much less fun than, say, beer parties?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Apparently the adverts have started already.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzEBLa3PPk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5XX9LX2es4

Right said Fred, both of us together, one each end and steady as we go
Tried to to shift it, couldn't even lift it, we was getting nowhere
And so, we, had a cup of tea

Right said Fred, give a shout to Charlie, up comes Charlie from the floor below
After straining, heaving and complaining, we was getting nowhere
And so, we, had a cup of tea

Charlie had a think and he thought we ought, to take off all the handles
And the things that hold the candles - but it did no good (well I never thought it would!)

Right said Fred, have to take the feet off, to get them feet off wouldn't take a mo...
Took its feet off, even with the seat off, should have got us somewhere, but no!
So Fred said let's have another cup of tea, and we said "right-oh!"

Right said Fred, have to take the door off, need more space to shift the so-and-so
Had bad twinges, taking off the hinges, and it got us nowhere
And so, we, had a cup of tea

Right said Fred, have to take the wall down, that there wall is gonna have to go
Took the wall down, even with it all down, we was getting nowhere
And so, we, had a cup of tea

Charlie had a think and and he said look Fred, I've got a sort of feeling
If we remove the ceiling,
With a rope or two we can drop the blighter through...

Right said Fred, climbing up a ladder, with his crowbar gave a mighty blow
Was he in trouble, half a ton of rubble, landed on the top of, his dome
So Charlie and me had another cup of tea
And then we, went home!

[Spoken, fading out...]
I said to Charlie we'll just have to leave it standing on the landing, that's all.
You see the trouble with Fred is, he's too hasty.
Now you never get nowhere if you're too hasty...

[bobbys]

I could get behind this party if Ann Coulter was the Candy It!!!!

[Tylerdurden]

I personally am more concerned with who is funding this and I see it as just another distraction standing in the way of meaningful change.

[Kaa]

A Tea Party..?

But what kind of tea? A malty Assam, a sophisticated Darjeeling, a bright Ceylon? Or maybe a rich Keemun, possibly a complex Oolong? Is Matcha even in the running?

:-)

Kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

10 responses, and not a single one with a serious or cogent comment on the topic... not even one with contrary views.

If there's anything wrong with the bilge, that's the problem.

[Tylerdurden]

If there's anything wrong with the bilge, Your the problem.;)

[paul oman]

Dems should worry.
Two views on NY 23rd election;

1) the dems just edged out the 3rd party conserv. (tea party) and that was without a repub even running

2) the repub dropout endorsed the dem so the 'united' dem and repub still could just barely beat the 'tea party'

by the time of the next round of elections the 'tea party' conservatives will be much stronger. If they can almost beat the dems after 1 year, imagine their clout after 2 or 3 years. Dems have peaked, now we wait to see how far they fall (as do all parties in power). New poll today says 58% of Americans expect to see a repub in the WH after the next pres election. How quickly things change. Looks like the Tea Party is the far right, Repub are the center and slight right, and dems the liberal left. Folks are again looking for 'change they can believe in' but now it is change away from the current admin... Gosh, it is fun to watch it all roll out! What a wonderful place America is!

[Kaa]

10 responses, and not a single one with a serious or cogent comment on the topic... not even one with contrary views.

If there's anything wrong with the bilge, that's the problem.

LOL. Norman, you can't take life seriously -- it's invariably fatal, no one gets out of it alive :D Have some Metamucil and laugh :D

Kaa

[LeeG]

Didn't the Green Party come out of a dissatisfaction that the Democrat Party could represent environmental interests adequately? Go tea partyers!

[Harbormaster]

I'm voting Tea Party all the way!

Mad Hatter and Dormouse in 2012.

[Norman Bernstein]

LOL. Norman, you can't take life seriously -- it's invariably fatal, no one gets out of it alive :D Have some Metamucil and laugh :D

I love to laugh... but that doesn't mean I don't have a side of me that is interested in current events. All I really want to do, in the bilge, is have rational discussions, with people who both agree, as well as disagree, with me. It just seems that the ratio of worthwhile exchange to juvenile crap has been diminishing over the past few months.

[Tylerdurden]

I love to laugh... but that doesn't mean I don't have a side of me that is interested in current events. All I really want to do, in the bilge, is have rational discussions, with people who both agree, as well as disagree, with me. It just seems that the ratio of worthwhile exchange to juvenile crap has been diminishing over the past few months.

Is it just possible all your non stop partisan crap might have something to do with that?

[perldog007]

Hard to tell how many people like that there are. ABC, NBC, CBS, the D.C. Fire Department reported a crowd of less than 100,000 on the mall for that tea party protect in the Capitol. Beck cited some university that estimated the crowd at 1.7 million.

I was in town for the Million Man March and the Million Mom March. There were more folks at the tea party rally. I don't think they are all social conservatives though. Maybe it's fair to say most of them are, but pretty sure all of them are not.

[Kaa]

All I really want to do, in the bilge, is have rational discussions, with people who both agree, as well as disagree, with me.

Yeah, but that imposes no obligations on other people to have rational discussions with you :-)

Sometimes the topic is interesting and you get a good discussion, sometimes no one is interested or has the time. So?

As ljb5 says,


Please stop thrashing about like this. It's undignified.

:D

Kaa

[pefjr]

Tea Party? Which network is the arm of the TP? Who are the Pundits? What animal is the symbol? I wanna see this show.

[Norman Bernstein]

Yeah, but that imposes no obligations on other people to have rational discussions with you :-)

Very true... but that probably says something about THEM, and less about me.:)


Sometimes the topic is interesting and you get a good discussion, sometimes no one is interested or has the time. So?

Actually, I think many of the people who WOULD be interested in engaging in lively discussion are discouraged by the drive-bys, the sophomoric and juvenile sniping, the name-calling, and so on... coming from both sides, in varying degrees.

I actually enjoy the philosophical/spiritual discussions, but those definately get polluted by the extraneous. Deb (Nanoose) is interesting to chat with,even though we have diametrically opposed views. I think Margot would also be interesting to debate with, but I suspect that the crap turns her off too much to even want to try.

[ljb5]

Dems should worry.
Two views on NY 23rd election;

1) the dems just edged out the 3rd party conserv. (tea party) and that was without a repub even running

2) the repub dropout endorsed the dem so the 'united' dem and repub still could just barely beat the 'tea party'

by the time of the next round of elections the 'tea party' conservatives will be much stronger

That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that the Republican/Right lost because they attacked themselves.

Remember Reagan's Eleventh Commadment: "Thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican." (This arose after the 1964 election when a schism in the Republican party cost Goldwater the presidency.)

They broke the commandment and paid the price. Will they learn their lesson, or keep trying to cannibalize themselves?

The NY-23 is a solid Republican district. I'm sure they'll win it back next year. The fact that it's currently occupied by a Democrat has little importance (it's a dead-end), but it is a monument to right-wing arrogance. They got greedy and tried to grab the whole pie and got their hand slapped by the voters.

Will they learn their lesson, or will they keep breaking their own Commandment?

Personally, I think the Tea Party is a dead end. As stupid as the Republicans are, they understand the importance of unity. They're more than willing to muzzle themselves if they think it will help them gain power.

It's been a long time since we had a Republican who would rather stand on principle than auction it off.

[pefjr]

That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that the Republican/Right lost because they attacked themselves.

Remember Reagan's Eleventh Commadment: "Thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican."

They broke the commandment and paid the price. Will they learn their lesson, or keep trying to cannibalize themselves?

The NY-23 is a solid Republican district. I'm sure they'll win it back next year. The fact that it's currently occupied by a Democrat has little importance (it's a dead-end), but it is a monument to right-wing arrogance. They got greedy and tried to grab the whole pie and got their hand slapped by the voters.

Will they learn their lesson, or will they keep breaking their own Commandment?

Personally, I think the Tea Party is a dead end. As stupid as the Republicans are, they understand the importance of unity. They're more than willing to muzzle themselves if they think it will help them gain power.

It's been a long time since we had a Republican who would rather stand on principle than auction it off.What is it about this liberal paranoia, it just keeps getting worse.:D

[Norman Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2382575#post2382575)
I love to laugh at rednecks, red staters, conservatives, libertarians, ... but that doesn't mean I don't have a side of me that is interested in current events. All I really want to do, in the bilge, is promote far left agendas, with people who disagree with me so I can obliterate them. It just seems that the ratio of worthwhile exchange to juvenile crap has been decreasing since November, 2004.

Fixed it for ya Normy.

Thank you for your stunning display of intellectual honesty.

[John Smith]

This will be interesting to watch unfold. Obviously there are many people who are dissatisfied and ready to have their anger stirred.

Judging my the many interviews with various tea party participants, I'm not sure all these angry people know who or what they're angry at.

[ljb5]

What is it about this liberal paranoia, it just keeps getting worse.:D

What paranoia? I'm just reviewing history.

The Rockefeller/Goldwater spat probably cost the Republicans the election in '64. (In the same way that Byrd/Kennedy spat nearly costs the Dems in '60).

In response, they created the "11th Amendment" and became a very disciplined, well-organized party. That worked well for them up until 2006.

In the NY-23, they broke the Commandment and lost a safe seat.

Will they break it again, or re-instate the Commandment?

Personally, I'd love to see them disintegrate, but there's too much money and power at stake, so I suspect they will regroup.

[The549]

Makes me wish I woulld have tried to start the nat'l Tea Party first! Would have been the perfect time to get a new party together.

[Captain Blight]

Florida is maybe the one state besides Texas where this could gain a real toehold. So the South and the Mountain West has the conservatives and the ultraconservatives, the Midwest and the Northeast share the moderate liberals with the Pacific West, and then there's Far Left New England along with the representatives from LA and the Bay Area in Cali. In Minnesota we have the DFL party, which put a governor in office... couple of 'em, actually.

Ultimately, I think more viable political parties are a good thing. If nothing else, it forces the special interest groups to juggle faster and spreads their efforts thinner.

[Kaa]

Hey, there are still domains available: theTeaParty.net, theTeaParty.info, TeaParty.at -- all not taken yet! :D

Kaa

[pefjr]

What paranoia? I'm just reviewing history.

The Rockefeller/Goldwater spat probably cost the Republicans the election in '64. (In the same way that Byrd/Kennedy spat nearly costs the Dems in '60).

In response, they created the "11th Amendment" and became a very disciplined, well-organized party. That worked well for them up until 2006.

In the NY-23, they broke the Commandment and lost a safe seat.

Will they break it again, or re-instate the Commandment?

Personally, I'd love to see them disintegrate, but there's too much money and power at stake, so I suspect they will regroup.

That's better, there's none of that hate spouting out in this post. Though you have it wrong on 64 election. Kennedy sympathy won that election and we better be glad it did. Goldwater was dangerous.

All this talk about NY-23? I'm more interested in the menu down at the Hawaiian Café. :D

[htom]

Norm, I was being serious. I find it's usually more effective to vent my fury as attempts at humor. Both parties are more interested in sharing power than anything else. Districts are gerry-mandered to the point that over 90% of the "professional politicians" are returned to office. The problem is that we are deluded into thinking there's something meaningful in choosing between (R) and (D). There isn't. Vote for those in power, or don't bother to vote.

[Norman Bernstein]

Norm, I was being serious. I find it's usually more effective to vent my fury as attempts at humor. Both parties are more interested in sharing power than anything else. Districts are gerry-mandered to the point that over 90% of the "professional politicians" are returned to office. The problem is that we are deluded into thinking there's something meaningful in choosing between (R) and (D). There isn't. Vote for those in power, or don't bother to vote.

I hear this attitude expressed often... but I fail to understand it. America has the fairest and most honest election system in the world, so one can't attribute the results of our candidate choices to fraud.... unless you're referring to the fact that we permit large monied interests like corporations or special interest groups to distort the outcome by legally lobbying to produce an unethical and arguably illegal result.

The folks who often disparage BOTH parties don't ever offer a solution to this. Occasionally, there is an effort to promote a third party candidate (Perot, Paul, etc.) which always fails (but occasionly exerts some influence on the result, like Perot... Paul was less successful).

So, what's the solution, from these foks? It superficially sounds like they aren't fans of democracy or representative government. I wish they'd say openly what they think the solution is.

It strikes me that they simply can't generate any support from the electorate for an alternate path.

[Paul Pless]

10 responses, and not a single one with a serious or cogent comment on the topic... not even one with contrary views.

If there's anything wrong with the bilge, that's the problem.What's wrong with the bilge is that you're not being taken seriously???

Now that's ridiculously funny!!!

[perldog007]

I hear this attitude expressed often... but I fail to understand it. America has the fairest and most honest election system in the world, so one can't attribute the results of our candidate choices to fraud.... unless you're referring to the fact that we permit large monied interests like corporations or special interest groups to distort the outcome by legally lobbying to produce an unethical and arguably illegal result.

I am not so sure that O'Reilly doesn't have a point when he raises doubt about the Al Franken's win by a slim margin after multiple recounts and heavy ACORN involvement. What was it, like three hundred votes?

Until that has been well investigated and proven not to be the case - any act where the Senate Majority party is able to force an issue by ending debate and holding a vote on party lines is tainted.

I am all for organizing, registration drives, but hold election integrity to be sacred. It's a fact - ACORN has been caught in active voter fraud in multiple states.

I saw some news coverage after the "Butterfly Ballot" thing on India's elections and their no nonsense system. That looked pretty good from the limited information presented.

Also, I am not totally convinced that the media was impartial in the last election. The right wingers may have a legit beef there.

Definitely we need reform in the area of lobbyists, unfortunately it seems to be promised on every election, regardless of party, and it seems to be universally brokne, regardless of party. That's certainly the case now, and the last administration was a ways from pure in that regard as well.

[Flying Orca]

America has the fairest and most honest election system in the world, so one can't attribute the results of our candidate choices to fraud...

I hope this is irony, Norman, and not what you really believe. In addition to problems with ballot design, voting machines, and other "mechanical" issues, your laws governing electoral district boundaries and campaign finance are very weak. Also, you would probably be better off with at least one more viable national party, but as we find here, that almost requires some kind of electoral reform if a large number of voters are not to be effectively disenfranchised.

In the interests of cross-border amicability I shall refrain from enumerating the advantages of a parliamentary system with a strong opposition. ;)

[Mrleft8]

Should we assume that all the tea party candidates will walk around with their pinky fingers in the air? :D

[Robmill0605]

I find it amusing to watch liberals try to define why the Tea Party has a foothold, and is rapidly gaining traction among conservatives.
The so called " moderates" that handed Obama the election are abandoning the democrats in droves, as displayed by the results in Virgina and the darkest of blue states NJ and almost in NY23 even with a republican throwing support to a democrat.

The smell of fear amoung democrats is in the air.

The media is always harping on the independents, the "moderates " and what effect they will have on elections. If it wasn't for moderates and independents,Obama would still be a Senator from Ill and they are abandoning him and the democrats in record numbers.
The republicans have alienated conservatives like myself. These moderates may as well just join the democratic party .
( Olympia Snow for example).
The liberals in the bilge like to point out fewer Americans identify themselves as republicans and they are in big trouble.
Right, but so are the democrats. Go ahead and dismiss the Tea Party.
See you in 2010.

[Robmill0605]

and then there is this:


Republicans Edge Ahead of Democrats in 2010 Vote

Registered voters prefer Republicans for the House, 48% to 44%

by Jeffrey M. Jones
PRINCETON, NJ -- Republicans have moved ahead of Democrats by 48% to 44% among registered voters in the latest update on Gallup's generic congressional ballot for the 2010 House elections, after trailing by six points in July and two points last month.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/lub7erdncui1_ma5929a4g.gif

[Kaa]

America has the fairest and most honest election system in the world

LOL.

I would love to hear a rational excuse for this electoral district in Illinois:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Illinois_District_4_2004.png

Yeah, that's a single district -- there's a connecting sliver along I-294 :D

Kaa

[Norman Bernstein]

I am not so sure that O'Reilly doesn't have a point when he raises doubt about the Al Franken's win by a slim margin after multiple recounts and heavy ACORN involvement. What was it, like three hundred votes?

Yeah, it was close election. What's the point? It's not the first close election we've had; George Bush got elected in 2000 by the 'Jews for Buchannan'... 3,000 votes, out of a nation of 300 million.


Until that has been well investigated and proven not to be the case - any act where the Senate Majority party is able to force an issue by ending debate and holding a vote on party lines is tainted.

You want to think about what you just said? are you REALLY trying to say that a vote which passes by a majority, even a slim one, is tainted?

(I'll let you retract that statement... if you do it quickly)


I am all for organizing, registration drives, but hold election integrity to be sacred. It's a fact - ACORN has been caught in active voter fraud in multiple states.

ACORN has NEVER been caught in election fraud. They have been caught in voter registration fraud, which is a different thing, and there's no evidence that the fradulent registrations weren't rejected. If you need a boogyman, and want to choose ACORN, go ahead... the organization, founded on noble principles, has been shown to be VERY badly managed and administrated... but don't invent imaginary reasons to disaparage them.


Also, I am not totally convinced that the media was impartial in the last election. The right wingers may have a legit beef there.

We can argue about the 'impartiality' of the media all day long... but what does that have to do with the results of the election? Do the left wingers have a beef with Fox News, The Washington Times, The Weekly Standard, and The Wall Street Journal, on precisely the SAME basis?


Definitely we need reform in the area of lobbyists, unfortunately it seems to be promised on every election, regardless of party, and it seems to be universally brokne, regardless of party. That's certainly the case now, and the last administration was a ways from pure in that regard as well.

Very true. We legalize lobbyists, whose objective is to illegally influence legislation. It makes no sense.

[Norman Bernstein]

My statement about America having the fairest and most honest election system in the world was intended to be relative.... compared to third world dictatorships, and even compared to some other democracies, that is. My statement did NOT say that our system was completely fair and honest.

[John Smith]

I am not so sure that O'Reilly doesn't have a point when he raises doubt about the Al Franken's win by a slim margin after multiple recounts and heavy ACORN involvement. What was it, like three hundred votes?

Until that has been well investigated and proven not to be the case - any act where the Senate Majority party is able to force an issue by ending debate and holding a vote on party lines is tainted.

I am all for organizing, registration drives, but hold election integrity to be sacred. It's a fact - ACORN has been caught in active voter fraud in multiple states.

I saw some news coverage after the "Butterfly Ballot" thing on India's elections and their no nonsense system. That looked pretty good from the limited information presented.

Also, I am not totally convinced that the media was impartial in the last election. The right wingers may have a legit beef there.

Definitely we need reform in the area of lobbyists, unfortunately it seems to be promised on every election, regardless of party, and it seems to be universally brokne, regardless of party. That's certainly the case now, and the last administration was a ways from pure in that regard as well.
While I've heard that about ACORN, I've not seen any actual evidence or charges. Perhaps you could document this as being more than something out of Beck's imagination.

[Horace]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a0/VA_3rd_Congressional_District.png/300px-VA_3rd_Congressional_District.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VA_3rd_Congressional_District.png)

Current Representative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Representatives_from_Virgini a)
Robert C. Scott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_C._Scott) (D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29)) Population (2000) 643,476 Median income $ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar)32,238 Ethnicity 38.6% White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people), 56.4% Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people), 1.4% Asian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American), 2.6% Hispanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic), 0.5% Native American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States), 0.3% other Cook PVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_Partisan_Voting_Index) D+20 Virginia's third congressional district is a United States congressional district (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_congressional_districts)

Here's another one, Kaa--created by the Justice Department and the Democrats in '93, and maintained as expedient since. You need a boat to get from Newport News to Surry.
Click on "Cook PVI" for an interesting statistical definition. Who needs ACORN?

[John Smith]

LOL.

I would love to hear a rational excuse for this electoral district in Illinois:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Illinois_District_4_2004.png

Yeah, that's a single district -- there's a connecting sliver along I-294 :D

Kaa
carefull. There are some amongst us who will not accept as fact anything that makes America look anything less than stellar.

[John Smith]

The teapary is a well financed "grassroots" movement that is anything but grass roots.

[perldog007]

Yeah, it was close election. What's the point? It's not the first close election we've had; George Bush got elected in 2000 by the 'Jews for Buchannan'... 3,000 votes, out of a nation of 300 million.

W was Selected by President Bill Clinton - who didn't have the presence of mind to resign in the midst of scandal leaving poo on the hands of his attackers and a sitting President Gore who would have prevailed

The point is that with a margin that small and ACORN involvement it's entirely possible that those 312 votes were spurious.
If we are going to have a corrupt process that may tend to lead to serious unpleasantness.




You want to think about what you just said? are you REALLY trying to say that a vote which passes by a majority, even a slim one, is tainted?

(I'll let you retract that statement... if you do it quickly)

Norm, that's very nice of you to let me retract my statement if I do it on a time table you approve of.

I will stand by my earlier statement and re-iterate that if we allow elections to be stolen, or the presence of impropriety by not investigating when we should, we can't expect legitimacy and respect based on the outcome.

So yes, if a measure squeaks through with one vote when that seat was stolen from the electorate by outright vote fraud then the process is tainted. Whether it happens here or in Kabul.




ACORN has NEVER been caught in election fraud. They have been caught in voter registration fraud, which is a different thing, and there's no evidence that the fradulent registrations weren't rejected. If you need a boogyman, and want to choose ACORN, go ahead... the organization, founded on noble principles, has been shown to be VERY badly managed and administrated... but don't invent imaginary reasons to disaparage them.

Interesting turn of semantics. So are you suggesting that convictions of registration fraud tend to indicate that not one of those bogus registrations has ever been used to cast a tainted vote? Why would somebody to register bogus voters and then not take the votes? If you need to spin every issue to make your partisan point I will allow you all the imaginary inventions you like, with no time limit.

Logic and reason Don't suffer against them.....




We can argue about the 'impartiality' of the media all day long... but what does that have to do with the results of the election? Do the left wingers have a beef with Fox News, The Washington Times, The Weekly Standard, and The Wall Street Journal, on precisely the SAME basis?

Where do people get their information from? Are you seriously suggesting that media coverage has no effect on the results of an election? That's one thing I do agree with O'reilly on - the media was in the tank for the Obama campaign.

Nobody said life was fair. It was a fight of sorts and we have a winner. It just seems dishonest to imply that the media coverage had no effect on the outcome.

YES! the left does have a problem with Fox News to the extent that high level officials and the President himself have deemed in wise to publicly attack the network. Cass Sunstein, the regulatory czar, wants to come up with a way to deal with the "problem" of talk radio.

You can find all kinds of attacks and smears from and by the publications you listed.

Those of us more to the middle have a problem with censorship, or anything that hints at it, like Rahm Emanuel and David Axlerod making what could be construed as veiled threats for other networks not to follow Fox Stories.




Very true. We legalize lobbyists, whose objective is to illegally influence legislation. It makes no sense. And I am at pains to admit that my party's candidate promised not to bring lobbyists into his administration and it turned out to be almost as true as W's "hydrogen cars" speech.

[Norman Bernstein]

W was Selected by President Bill Clinton - who didn't have the presence of mind to resign in the midst of scandal leaving poo on the hands of his attackers and a sitting President Gore who would have prevailed

That little bit of hyper-partisan blather is so absurd, it's not worth commenting on.


The point is that with a margin that small and ACORN involvement it's entirely possible that those 312 votes were spurious.

It's also possible that there were 312 or more spurious votes cast on the other side... unless you're going to suggest that only Democrats try to fraudulently register voters.

In very close elections, it's impossible to tell WHICH side was the beneficiary of fraudulent votes.

The W situation in Florida was different... because the 3,000+ bogus votes for Buchannan in Palm Bach County massively swamps the few hundred contested 'hanging chad' ballots.


I will stand by my earlier statement and re-iterate that if we allow elections to be stolen, or the presence of impropriety by not investigating when we should, we can't expect legitimacy and respect based on the outcome.

I'm sorry that you didn't like the 5 freakin' months worth of investigation that took place in MN... but it was as thorough as it could possibly have been.


So yes, if a measure squeaks through with one vote when that seat was stolen from the electorate by outright vote fraud then the process is tainted. Whether it happens here or in Kabul.

Once again: after all the counting, re-counting, court challenges, and investigations, we ended up with a result. If you want to assume that Fnken won via fraud, despite 5 damn months of contention, then that is YOUR cross to bear. Once the final decision is made, the election deserves the presumption of legitimacy. Not happy with it? Tough... I wasn't happy with the 2000 election either, but after the Supremes spoke, I had no choice but to acknowledge that Bush was going to be President.


Interesting turn of semantics. So are you suggesting that convictions of registration fraud tend to indicate that not one of those bogus registrations has ever been used to cast a tainted vote?

Extensive investigation failed to turn up any. That doesn't mean that there weren't any illegitimate votes, but it does show no big systematic fraud... and there most certainly were some illegitimate votes from the other side too.... no election is perfect, down to the last voter.


Why would somebody to register bogus voters and then not take the votes?

Bcause the people who were paid to register the votes were not the people recording votes. The people registering voters were being paid per-capita, and had a financial incentive to register bogus names... it had little or nothing to do with some political motivation to load the vote.


If you need to spin every issue to make your partisan point I will allow you all the imaginary inventions you like, with no time limit.

Look up at the top of this response, to your very first quoted paragraph... and then tell me again about how I'm spinning the issue to make a partisan point.


Where do people get their information from? Are you seriously suggesting that media coverage has no effect on the results of an election? That's one thing I do agree with O'reilly on - the media was in the tank for the Obama campaign.

The media reflects popular opinion... and there's hardly any question that huge numbers of people were captivated by what they saw as a fresh and different voice and attitude from Obama. The right wing media did what it always does, reflecting the opinion of IT'S constituents.


It just seems dishonest to imply that the media coverage had no effect on the outcome.

That effect has been true since the dawning of democracy. What would you advocate? Shutting down freedom of the press?


YES! the left does have a problem with Fox News to the extent that high level officials and the President himself have deemed in wise to publicly attack the network. Cass Sunstein, the regulatory czar, wants to come up with a way to deal with the "problem" of talk radio.

No he doesn't. He may philosophize about it, but there ain't NOBODY seriously advocating a return to the 'fairness doctrine'... there are just a lot of people on the right falsely claiming that they are, because it inspires fear, and fear sells.


Those of us more to the middle have a problem with censorship, or anything that hints at it, like Rahm Emanuel and David Axlerod making what could be construed as veiled threats for other networks not to follow Fox Stories.

You mean, as opposed to the veiled threats and explicit accusations against the press spouted by right-wingers?

I would agree that Obama and his minions were probably wrong to reference Fox News explicitly... even if the essence of what they had to say is absolutely correct: the supposed 'news' portion of Fox News (NOT the commentary portion) is both inept and severely biased.


And I am at pains to admit that my party's candidate promised not to bring lobbyists into his administration and it turned out to be almost as true as W's "hydrogen cars" speech.

For shame! I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that a presidential candidate failed to deliver on one of his promises after he was elected! (I'm using my best Claude Rains voice imitation while saying that)

I take an overall view. Obama has reneged on 7 campaign promises so far, according to politifact.com... but he's delivered on 49 campaign promises. That isn't a bad record, at all.

[Kaa]

carefull. There are some amongst us who will not accept as fact anything that makes America look anything less than stellar.

And why in the whole wide world should I be careful around such people?

Kaa