are dories better than sharpies???

[shaunbarrymcmillan]

I have read many times on the forum of the good and bad design features of a sharpie, that they are designed for thin water with some limitations to their sailing abilities. Yet on many inter-net sites and in the boat related press I have repeatedly read about the sea keeping ability of traditional dory designs.

I remain interested in the dory concept as I prepare for a build possibly this next spring or summer. The dory design is easy to build and I can get feed-back from this forum of the design concept.

There are a number of designers (Selway Fisher and Jay Benford) that have small 24' to 26' dory cruising designs.

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

[ShagRock]

There are many experts on the forum experienced with building and sailing of dories and sharpies. Interesting you mix the two types in asking your initial question. Should they be treated separately or do they merge together at some point? Anyway, Howard Chapelle designed Southwind a 22 ft. Dory-Sharpie.

http://www.dngoodchild.com/5235.htm

http://www.dngoodchild.com/5235pic.jpg

[James McMullen]

Are dories better than sharpies?

Better for what? It's pretty hard to make a blanket statement.

Both of these boat types, like all other types, are necessarily a blend of compromises. Both of these types have some very similar advantages in simplifying the building process for modern builders if you are working with sheet plywood for your planking, which is one of the reasons you see and hear so much about them amongst the do-it-yourself community. But you also must remember that modern adaptations of traditional types can really be quite different from something like a traditional Banks Dory or New Haven Oyster Sharpie. A Benford Cruising Dory or a Norwalk Islands Sharpie doesn't bear much resemblance to its historical antecedent.

[Steve Paskey]

I remain interested in the dory concept as I prepare for a build possibly this next spring or summer. The dory design is easy to build and I can get feed-back from this forum of the design concept.

There are a number of designers (Selway Fisher and Jay Benford) that have small 24' to 26' dory cruising designs.

It would be helpful to know which specific designs you're interested in. For instance, Jay Benford's sailing dories have a heavily-ballasted fin keel, which is not "traditional" and makes them an entirely different sort of boat from a sharpie. (I've never seen a "sharpie" with a ballasted keel ... they're strictly shallow draft boats with centerboards.) In the larger sizes (such as the 34' foot "Badger"), Benford's fin-keeled "dories" have been used as blue-water cruisers. There are some nice photos of Badger here, taken in 2005:
www.flickr.com/photos/evansamsri/sets/1143655/

An assortment of other fin-keeled cruising dories:

Tom MacNaughton's Silver Gull 19 and Silver Gull 29 are about as simple as it gets:
www.macnaughtongroup.com/stockplans.htm

Merryweather, a 23-footer by Wm. Atkin:
www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/MerryWeather.html

The Grand Banks 22 by Ted Brewer:
www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/grandbanks22.htm

The Pioneer 21 and Pioneer 23 from Paul Fisher:
www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#ION
.

[Thorne]

Not a question that can be answered. Here's a few more:

Do blondes or brunettes make the best wives?

How long is a piece of string?

Does this dress make me look fat? (asked by your wife or girlfriend)

[shaunbarrymcmillan]

I was specifically thinking about Selway's Pioneer in 23'4" and wondering why it should not be a good cruising /sea boat. Much like, I guess, a Grand Banks dory.But as other responders have stated I did not specify exactly what kind of dory or sharpy- I simply don't have the knowledge base construct that kind of question.

But thanks for the answers- any other thoughts would be appreciated

[JimD]

I was specifically thinking about Selway's Pioneer in 23'4"

It would be hard to categorize that boat as purely dory or sharpie and Paul Fisher recognizes this by calling it a Dory/Sharpie

. It is flat bottom single chine, well ballasted. The bottom is quite wide and the sides do not have the classic extreme flare of the dory. I suspect it would be quite seaworthy and get you where you're going in relative safety.

SF Pioneer:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Pioneerd1.gif

Brewer Grand Banks 22:

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/Grand-Banks-22---layout-&-p.gif

Frames setup for Benford Badger, generally considered to be a true dory hull:

http://www.svwillow.net/building/9setup.jpg

Lines for a Glen-L dory version:

https://www.glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/kh-images/029jpdory-l.gif

As for which is better, assuming better means safer for rough or blue water cruising the dory usually gets the nod.

[aldebaran]

I´m sure the S-F Pioneer dory would take you around the world if well build and if you are capable of handling it. I´m also sure that you´ll have to sleep with earplugs when anchoring. These flat bows pound a lot.

Personally, I would call the S-F Pioneer a sharpie, but I´m from Europe, so what do I know.
Where is the limit between a dory and a sharpie?

Whats best? Apples or bananas?

[James McMullen]

How important is "simple to build" on your list of necessary compromises? Slab-sided, flat bottomed hulls, whether dory or sharpie, have some inherent characteristics that are not to everyone's taste.

[shaunbarrymcmillan]

James - I have long considered the compromize and conflicts that your post suggets. Is a cheaper design worth it? would a multi-chine like Fisher's Tansman be better? I don't know and likely I'll deliberate on it for quite some time to come.

[James McMullen]

Shaun, all I can tell you is that the boats I have built that I have been least satisfied with and least enjoyed both the building and the using of were the ones that were over-simplified for the purpose of making them extra-easy to build. I'm not knocking quick & dirty boats out of hand, since they certainly do have some purposes, and lord knows I've built quite a few of them. . .but they're not my favorite at all any more. I think once you've gotten bigger than the truly disposable, knock it out in a weekend for kicks size, you'll be much better served in the long run by investing a little more into it.

When you look at the different types of dories, you could start with the famous Banks Dory, which was a really simple, quick-to-build, semi-disposable, stack em-like-dixie-cups on the deck of a cod fishing schooner workboat--and as you trace its development from pure, cheap utility towards pleasure boating and sail racing it gets the rounder and more sophisticated hull shape of the Swampscott Dory. Refined still further, with the flat bottom becoming vestigial as the single plank keel, you end up with the lovely wherry type.

With sharpies, the quick and cheap hard-chined oyster sharpie, when refined for yachting by Cmdr. Munroe in his later designs gets a rounded chine and becomes the Presto type.

Rounded hull shapes are--generally speaking--more seakindly, with less turbulence, less slapping and pounding, no chines to dig in when the boat crosses an eddyline or gets overtaken by a following wave. I have been much happier in rougher water in the rounder boats I've built than in any of the hard chine boats I've built--with the notable exception of the hard-chine Greenland style kayaks which I like. The thing is, with a Greenland kayak you can use the way the chine digs in when you lean the boat over to good effect in steering your boat to some degree with body english. In a bigger boat where the heel of the boat can't be controlled with a hip flick, this characteristic isn't so favorable.

Both slab-sided sharpies and dories are really easy to build with modern marine plywood/epoxy techniques--but more rounded and sophisticated shapes can also be built with plywood/epoxy, either by stitch & glue or by glued lapstrake. With the advent of these really impressive new CNC programs and cutters, it is possible for even a complete beginner to build a really sophisticated hull shape from a stack of precision cut panels. Even as a pro, with plenty of experience in traditional lofting techniques, I'll still order a stack of CNC parts when building a plywood/epoxy boat to order as it saves me many dozens of hours of pencil & batten labor to apply towards a more competitive bid.

Using a parts kit, even a complete amateur can build a boat as lovely and useful as a SwallowBoats Bay Cruiser (http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/148/118/), a Dudley Dix Cape Henry 21 (http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21.htm) or Didi 26 (http://www.dixdesign.com/26didi.htm), or a Welsford Penguin (http://www.fyneboatkits.com/trolleyed/60/63/65/index.htm) for about the same amount of money in materials as you would to build one of those Benford Dory thingies. That's what I'd recommend. Don't set your sights too low. If you're going to invest months or years of your life in building your own boat, build one that is really something special in both looks and performance.

Sure, build something like a Bolger Teal or a PD Racer first to get a modicum of woodworking experience and so you'll have something to go splash around in while you're working on your masterpiece. By the time you've gotten your big one done, then you'll already have a cheap, disposable tender you won't mind getting crushed or stolen.