kayak kits [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

On Vacation

08-23-2002, 05:57 PM

Pygmy seems to be a better kit from the people I have met that has built them. They are in Port Towsend, Wash.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pc8ca543c623168280ba4d6af3b0f058f/fdd35f2c.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/p556fe6693afa6f7a982589c7f2106764/fdd35f33.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pe086d2534b1cd4146758e3c54f24e7cb/fdd35f27.jpg

This is their showroom.

capt jake

08-23-2002, 06:01 PM

I have seen some very nice Pygmy's out there! :D

lspec3

08-23-2002, 06:22 PM

I have been very satisfied with CLC. I recently finished my second Chess. 17LT. My wife put a claim on the first one, so she paddled while I built.

The kits go together easily with great instructions. There is plenty of extra material shipped (cloth, epoxy, etc). There is an active forum on their web site in case you have any questions.

Hope this helps!

winslow

08-23-2002, 07:33 PM

I recommended Pygmy to my brother -- based on a report from a friend who built one and my own inspection & paddling of the Coho model at their shop in Pt. Townsend.

-Markus

Don Maurer

08-23-2002, 10:06 PM

Folks in the East and Midwest seem to prefer CLC. Folks from the West seem to like Pygmy. I've seen a lot of CLC boats and all are well constructed of quality materials. The builders/owners ar very happy with them. I have never seen a Pygmy boat. Have paddled neither.

Pelican

08-23-2002, 10:10 PM

How bout a link so I can add to my fav's

Tomcat

08-23-2002, 10:27 PM

If you are making the boat yourself, there is no real reason to buy a kit if you have a few basic tools. CLC has published a lot of designs into the public domain with their three books, and numerous articles in WB. There are other providers that have been around longer, like Dennis Davies. On the other hand, if you don't care about saving a little money and having the pride of making it all yourself, and if you want to get out on the water, making a kit is a fine idea. Overall, about the only difficult step kit building removes is cutting the scarph. Most of the difficult stuff remains.

Don Maurer

08-24-2002, 10:43 AM

Pelican,

Here's the link for Pygmy.
http://www.pygmyboats.com/

and the one for CLC.
http://www.clcboats.com/

Pelican

08-24-2002, 08:08 PM

Thanks Don

Sailman58

08-25-2002, 11:41 AM

The directions that I received with a Pygmy kit were minimal compared with the manuals CLC was distributing at the time. The latest CLC manuals are even better, about an inch thick with lots of pictures and drawings.
As a frequent visitor to the shop I can truthfully say that they are one of the most customer focused organizations that I have ever seen. I wish that my employer would be as customer focused!

Ron

Jim Budde

08-25-2002, 02:00 PM

Building the CLC 16' from plans. If their kits are as thorough as their plans for non-kit builders, I don't see how you could go wrong. And their technical support staff has provided immediate answers to my few questions.

On Vacation

08-25-2002, 02:36 PM

Thought I might clear something up here. I was not saying that CLC was less than any other in quality or design or value. I had just spoken to more that had built the Pygmy and appeared to have great words for them. Thats what made me visit the showroom on a visit with my covered wagon out west, smile.gif and was also very impressed with the friendly atmosphere and the models.

[ 08-25-2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: oyster ]

John M

08-26-2002, 01:09 PM

I built the CLC 16' canoe from the kit. It was a great experience. I had a few questions which were answered by their customer service people. They have a good web-site with an active forum. Lots of help available if you need it.

John M

John Gearing

08-26-2002, 02:11 PM

I didn't build one of CLC's kits but I did order some MAS epoxy from them when I was building another boat and my experience with CLC was not good. First, the order taker tried to charge me a higher price than was on their price sheet, then acted like he was doing me a big favor by including the wood flour even though it was included in the price according to their own literature. And when the box arrived they had shorted me the container of colloidal silica! Maybe they didn't want to bother with someone who had a measly $100 order, but I vowed they'd get no more of my business. I found a local supplier for the silica and haven't been back to CLC for any more stuff.

DougC

08-27-2002, 12:08 AM

I've spent many happy hours paddling my friend's Osprey -- she built it from a Pygmy kit, she had no prior experience and did a great job. The Osprey is a multichined hull, a little different from the Greenland style (hard chined) kayaks such as the CLC 17. The Greenland style kayaks seem doable from plans, but if I wanted a multichine I'd use a pre-cut kit. The Pygmy kits seem very well done and their Osprey is a great boat.

Howler

08-27-2002, 12:58 PM

As a blazing beginner, my second project was the CLC Mill Creek kayak, built only from the table of offsets and article published in WB magazine. The stitch and glue method was relatively fast and easy, messy but easy, and turned out a very nice kayak. If I were to build another kayak, I would likely go with a CLC kit having the materials all in one box ready to glue up. I didn't like the stitches left showing along the inside seams so I developed a method to allow removal of the copper wire leaving smooth, clean chines. The price of the CLC kits fall in a range that is nearly equal to buying materials from scratch so they are, in my opinion, a good deal.

carlg

08-27-2002, 02:20 PM

I built a CLC Mill Creek and am happy with the results. Customer service was excellent, too. A couple of small parts were missing from the kit and they were shipped overnight amid profuse apologies.

LisaS

08-27-2002, 02:34 PM

My first two kayaks were CLC Ches. 17's built from plans. I've also helped others build from both plans and kits, and have found them both very doable for a rank novice. Their customer support was outstanding as well.

Lisa

reddog

08-28-2002, 07:10 PM

nutmeg;
Try the site below for Roy Folland Kayaks.I haven't paddled one but have looked at them at boat shows as well as having spoken with Mr. Folland.They appear to be well designed and the kits very comprehensive with excellent directions and after sale support.An added bonus may be the pricing in Canadian dollars.
http://www.kayak-kits.com/index.html
All the best; Earl

mower

08-28-2002, 07:39 PM

If I was to build another kayak, I would seriously check out a company in Edmonton, Alberta. www.watersdancing.com (http://www.watersdancing.com)

Nicholas Carey

08-29-2002, 06:51 PM

re: Chesapeake Light Craft (CLC) vs. Pygmy stitch/glue plywood kayaks --

My 10 centimes' worth (having built neither, but paddled both) is this:

1. CLC is a better designer, I think, than Pygmy. His design have that little bit of extra elegance that makes all the aesthetic difference in the world (YMMV of course). You can see this in Pygmy's whitehall-esque stitch-and-tape rowboat. The sheer is exaggerated to the point where it looks like a cartoon. Compare that to the CLC wherry, which is downright elegant and classic-looking.

2. Construction Technique.

The Pygmy's deck is awfully nice nice-looking. The deck consists of two flat panels arranged in a shallow vee and are joined to the hull with a thin strake joining the hull at something like a 45-degree angle. Looks very sweet. The deck on CLC kayaks is much simpler -- 1 piece of plywood sprung in an arc and fastened to the sheerclamp.

However, joining the Pygmy's hull and deck requires a certain amount of gymnastics. You have to (1) assemble the two deck halves (stitch, filet and tape) on the temporary frames/station molds. The thin sheerstrakes are then attached to the deck the same way. Final assembly consist of removing the temporary frames/station molds, stitching the deck assembly to the hull and then...

fileting and taping the deck to the hull!

It's a little difficult to reach way up into the end of an 18-foot kayaks and do a reasonable job of fileting and taping. You need things like a ten foot stick with a paintbrush and tennis ball on the end. And you'll never really know just how well it's attached to the hull.

Assembly of a CLC kayaks, OTOH, is much simpler. The hull has a sheer clamp bonded to the hull. The deck consists of a plywood sheet that is spring down to the sheerclamp and bonded to the sheerclamp (with temporary nails or screws used to tack it down while the epoxy cures).

The CLC technique is significantly faster, simpler and in all likelyhood, stronger.

There you have it.

On Vacation

08-29-2002, 07:28 PM

My 10 centimes' worth (having built neither, but paddled both) is this:

How many have you built at all? Do you have a look at the plans? I am not sure if any plans designer will sell too many plans having to do fillets with a sitck 10 feet long. But I will investigate this for the sake of my own learning. Its hard enough to do this with a putty knife rounded.

[ 08-29-2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: oyster ]

Nicholas Carey

08-29-2002, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by oyster:
How many have you built at all? Do you have a look at the plans? I am not sure if any plans designer will sell too many plans having to do fillets with a sitck 10 feet long. But I will investigate this for the sake of my own learning. Its hard enough to do this with a putty knife rounded.As I said, I've built neither, but I've looked at the plans, I've talked to people who have built them. Pygmy recommends using a stick to glop epoxy into the inside of the hull.

From the kayak builder forum

S&G: Pygmy or CLC Deck Attachment Method

Posted By: Gregory
Date: Friday, 28 June 2002, at 4:03 p.m.

I am in the proces of attaching deck to hull on my Tern 14 and have questions about the Pygmy process of filleting and taping the inside shear seam. Is this method reliable (poking a 6 1/2 foot stick into the bow and stern recesses and blindly injecting epoxy) as compared to the shear clamp used by CLC? CLC literature (admittedly biased) seems to indicate that they belive the Pygmy technique is unreliable and time consuming as compared to theirs.

Will my Pygmy be capable of rough conditions if I simply attach the deck as instructed?I'm not passing any kind of judgement on the engineering merits of the technique.

I can just think of better things to do with my time than trying to manipulate epoxy and fiberglass at the end of a 6-1/2 foot stick.

W Meier

08-29-2002, 09:33 PM

I have built both the CLC Cape Charles from the plans in an older Woodenboat and the Golden-Eye from Pygmy plans. While the CLC was marginally easier to build, it paddles no where near as nicely as the Pygmy. The CLC uses a pair of deck beams and sheer clamp while the Pygmy uses the peaked and reinforced deck. When I put the deck on the Pygmy, I held it on with shrink wrap and then reached inside with the extrension stick with an epoxy filled syringe as per the instructions. This was the part I dreaded the most, but it turned out very well and the anticipation was far worse than actually doing it ( sound familiar ??)

My wife likes the way the CLC looks but likes the way the Pygmy paddles. I think the newer CLC boats paddle better than the older CLCs and << maybe>> as good as the Pygmy. I like the way the deck on the newer Pygmy Osprey looks with it's cutaway sheer, but the CLC arched deck still looks better.

I built both of the kayaks without deck hatches or bulkheads. The 18' CLC is 41lbs, the 15'8" Pygmy is 37 lbs.

I really don't think you could go wrong with either.

Cheers

Wayne

W Meier

08-29-2002, 09:35 PM

Wild Dingo

08-29-2002, 10:43 PM

With so many Kayak choices out there why stick with just these two or three??

Why not have a look at these before you decide?....

Joes Redfish Kayaks... simply brilliant!... strip built (http://www.redfishkayak.com)

http://www.redfishkayak.com/king1.9.jpg

Waters Dancing... Canada... ply kits (http://www.watersdancing.com/waters/index.htm)

San Javier... USA... ply plans kits (http://www.woodenkayak.com)

Green Valley Kayaks... plans (http://www.greenval.com)

the legendary Ted Moores site... canoe/kayak plans (http://www.bearmountainboats.com)

Theres many more to have a look at along with some free plans from here:

M. Garmons Qivitoq (http://www.personal.kent.edu/~mgarmon/plans/qivitoq/qivitoq.html)

and here:

Nick Schades free Aleut plans (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/StripBuilt/Aleut/Offsets.html)

Dont limit yourself!!... :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[ 08-29-2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

Todd Bradshaw

08-30-2002, 01:11 AM

One thing related to much of this is that kayaks are very personal boats. Do absolutely everything within reason to try to get the longest possible test paddle in any kayak that you are considering building or buying - and not just in that brand, but in that particular model. If this means driving for a few hours to attend a kayak symposium or calling the manufacturer or designer to see if there is anybody in your area who has built a particular boat and who might let you try it, do it!

You can read specifications and talk to other builders and owners until you're blue in the face and you still won't have any real clue about many of the characteristics of a specific boat, including the simple question "Will I feel comfortable in it?" If you line up a dozen world-class sea kayaks on the beach and test paddle them all, chances are that you will really like a couple of them, really hate a couple of them and have mixed reactions to the rest from pretty good to pretty bad. This doesn't mean that they aren't all great designs, just that they aren't all great designs for you. Even different boats from the same designer can, in fact, be quite different and you may like some and dislike others.

Things like deck construction and even to some extent customer service can be meaningless if you aren't comfortable with the way a boat fits you and handles in the water. I have both bought and built kayaks over the years that I really didn't like very much. It's frustrating trying to convince yourself that you're happy with a boat that you have worked so hard on or spent a lot of money on when you know down deep that you don't really like it once you get it off the car and put it in the water.

[ 08-30-2002, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

reddog

08-30-2002, 05:26 AM

That's probably the best bit of advice,Todd.As Shane pointed out there are many different kayaks available to be built.If you are not happy with the boat,(fit,preformance,design,etc.),then you'll be looking for another in short order.It's a very personal choice,so definitely try them out before you decide.
Earl

Dave Grimmer, Pygmy Boats Inc.

08-30-2002, 01:18 PM

Greetings all!

I want to clear up a little about the attachment of the deck on pygmy boats. The primary strength of the sheer seam is achieved when glassing the deck. The 6 ounce cloth on the deck overlaps the sheer by 1 inch. The syringe on the stick trick does work quite well for gluing that area. The majority of folk building our kayaks however, also cut hatches which allows gluing (and taping should they choose) of the inside sheer and omitting the syringe on the stick all together.

Dave Grimmer
Pygmy Boats Inc.

nutmeg2go

09-01-2002, 10:07 PM

OK. I've almost decided. Checked all the sites, talked to people, and considered all the advice.

Before I spend the hard earned cash (and well before I post photos of the finished project), does anyone have any last second recommendations?

By the way, for those who have responded, thanks for the help.

On Vacation

09-01-2002, 10:11 PM

Yea, go rent three types bottoms of plastic ones consisting of different shapes and lengths with rudders and without. Use in currents and winds for the next month.

Todd Bradshaw

09-02-2002, 12:13 AM

As strange as that sounds, it's REALLY good advice.

CyberRebel

09-02-2002, 12:33 AM

I'd love to build a kayak when I'm done with the Weekender I'm working on now. The problem is... I don't fit in most of them! I'm 6'3" 285 lbs. and wear a size 14 shoe. The only kayak I've found that even comes close to fitting me is the Pygmy Osprey Triple. I really don't need a triple, but it can be solo'd. The CLC Triple is not recommended for soloing. Anybody know of any other possibilities? Will I even be comfortable in the Pygmy? Or should I forget the whole kayak idea completely?

Todd Bradshaw

09-02-2002, 02:18 AM

I would think a boat like Pygmy's Queen Charlotte-XL might be a good choice. It's a little wider, deeper, more stable boat which can be good for big guys. It might pay to call them and check on foot room, but I doubt you would have trouble fitting into it.

CyberRebel

09-04-2002, 02:16 AM

I was looking at the wider beam and 1/2" more footroom the Triple offers. I still don't know if it would be comfortable though. I have no desire to build a boat I'm not comfortable in for extended periods. Anybody out there built a triple or the Charlotte XL? Any others I should look at? Dave Grimmer, what say you?

[ 09-04-2002, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: CyberRebel ]

Todd Bradshaw

09-04-2002, 03:56 AM

Despite Pygmy's product description, I think they're pushing things a bit when they suggest the triple as a serious boat for solo paddlers. A 65 lb. 20'long, 30" wide solo kayak would have a tremendous amount of wetted surface area creating drag, combined with an awful lot of windage. In anything other than perfect, glassy water, it could be a real bear to handle. Even in perfect conditions, it's going to feel heavy, unresponsive and hard to turn compared to regular singles. The same laws of physics that apply to the big CLC boats also apply to the big Pygmy boats and there isn't any magical design formula that's going to get around them. The difference is primarily in the ad copy.

I'm 6'4 and about 205 lbs. and once built an 18'x 27" double which I paddled solo a few times and even rolled, just to see if I could do it. In nice weather, it paddled OK, in a kind of barge-like manner, but it felt more like sitting on the bottom of a canoe and using a double paddle than actual kayaking. If you really want to get the feel of kayaking (that "wearing your boat" thing that you read about) you're going to need a real solo kayak - maybe a high-volume model, but a real one none the less. I find that I can fit reasonably well into most of the mid-to-large sized production boats, but they vary a lot from model to model in terms of foot room, seat comfort and getting your thighs and knees into a comfortable position.

Here again, the best option is to go try-on some kayaks, preferably in the water and the more, the better. They don't have to be wood to give you an idea of how much room you really need. Find something common, like a Current Designs dealer. See if they have a Solstice GT you can sit in or try, the high-volume model if they have one. It's 17'7" by 24.5" and is so big that many people can't get a decently snug fit in it. Or find and attend a CLC or Pygmy demo and try some big singles. I think assuming you're so big that you need to buy something like a triple without actually trying some other boats first is a mistake.

LeeG

09-17-2002, 09:52 AM

I'm not passing any kind of judgement on the engineering merits of the technique.

I can just think of better things to do with my time than trying to manipulate epoxy and fiberglass at the end of a 6-1/2 foot stick.[/QB][/QUOTE]

You don't have to, I've built both and others, gluing/glassing a deck/hull together is no big deal, strip built boats are done this way as are production glass kayaks, as these all are glass/epoxy/wood laminates there's really nothing inherently better about planing inwales for the deck to attach to. Once the hull is together the "strength" in the sheer is redundant and doesn't reflect the actual stresses a sea kayak encounters in REAL use. For what it's worth a paneled deck (like a paneled hull) is stronger for the actual stresses encountered in SEA KAYAKS in the environment that they are designed for, ie. coastal conditions and rescues.