A Reasonable Sailing Cup-Challenge

[Susanne@PB&F]

Phil Bolger and I have kicked this around for quite a few years.
In light of the 'mono-cultural' developments in various local and global Sailing cup/Challenges/etc. we propose a Cup that would foster more 'real-world'-relevant design-developments:

'Our' Cup-Challenge would require
- a good offshore leg,
- shooting a bridge with rig lowered,
- going over a 3-foot bar under sail-power,
- a maximum amount of fuel allowed to be used to manage adversity in the tidal/estuary leg of the course,
- and a dash by a designated runner of the crew up the beach to the judges' finish-line after a controlled/no hull-damage beaching.
Now that would teach everybody something we can go to sea and up the narrow/shallow waters of estuaries with...

(Addition on Nov.8, 11:02 EST)
Dept. How could this be forgotten:
Add to this list
- highest degree of 'sinking resistance'.

(Addition on Nov. 10, 07:37 EST)
Oh, did I mention it to be
- an ocean-capable cruiser/liveaboard...

Defining your priorities as to their real-world relevance is part of charm of this Cup-Challenge. And this would indeed challenge sailors in ways most might dread, particularly the offshore sleigh-drivers - hence the term 'Challenge'.

[rbgarr]

Dread?? Hardly.

[Jim Ledger]

How about this, PB@J...

During the offshore leg, the boats will be required to deploy a mid-water trawl and catch a minimum amount of a target species, to be put in wet wells for later sale. Points off for by-catch, of course. Total disqualification if a dolphin or turtle is harmed.

The air will be just thick with dread, I can tell you.

[OconeePirate]

Wouldn't the Everglades Challenge come fairly close to meeting the above criteria? Need to add in a fishing requirement though...

[Jim Ledger]

Wouldn't the Everglades Challenge come fairly close to meeting the above criteria? Need to add in a fishing requirement though...


You like my fishing idea?:)

I'm not familiar with the Everglades Challenge, though. Is it air boats? That would be cool. No need to tack with those, eh? Or maybe it's a pirouge race, whatever. Would you describe the race as Mono-Cultural? Not very likely in southern Fla. Extra points for picking up some "square grouper"?

[paladin]

Or....part of the exercise....have folks don their lifejackets, put them in the water, and have them board their dink......and just before you ping the start bell, invert the dinghy. I used to teach a class and we did this in a swimming pool indoors in Anchorage.......it really got interesting.

[OconeePirate]

Here is a link to the Everglades Challenge website. Its probably a bit too broad for what you're discussing, and I don't think it really involves any offshore racing. It allows almost any manner of non-motored craft.

I'm pretty much convinced that these Water Tribe people are some sort of hippy cult, but the race looks like fun.

http://www.watertribe.com/

[Jim Ledger]

Kinda like the Indy drivers having to run for their cars, eh Chuck?

[Jim Ledger]

Its probably a bit too broad for what you're discussing, and I don't think it really involves any offshore racing. It allows almost any manner of non-motored craft.



Catboats included? See, Susanne's race puts catboats at a distinct disadvantage. It's the going-under-the-bridge thing. There's no way you're going to get that stick down and up in time. Such a multi-cultural race, but what about the catboats? She might as well have just written "No Catboats Need Enter".

I'd like to see a race in a nice shallow bay, one leg out, one back, both reaches, stopping anywhere along the way to tread up a bushel of clams, You leave with a case of beer per person, and when you come back, you get points for empty bottles.

[Woxbox]

There's the Three Peaks Yacht race, in which you need a handy boat and a couple of good runners. The boat's requirments are a bit broader than usual.

http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/site_3peaks/#

From the site:


Teams comprise 3 sailors and 2 runners, and their aim is to sail from Barmouth on the Welsh coast to Fort William in Scotland, via Caernarfon and Whitehaven, climbing to the summits of Snowdon, Scafell Pike and Ben Nevis on the way. (The athletes cycle from Whitehaven into Ennerdale and run up and down Scafell Pike from there.)
In total this is 389 miles of difficult coastal sailing, 18 miles of cycling and 72 miles of running, with 14,000 feet of ascent to reach the highest points in Wales, England and Scotland.
The race is open to monohull yachts only and engine power can only be used close to port, but yachts can be rowed, or even pulled along by crew members on the shore. There are no handicaps or adjustments, it�s a straight race and the first team to get their runners back to their yacht in Fort William, having completed all the mountains, wins the coveted Daily Telegraph Cup.

[Canoeyawl]

The fuel would be for the boats that can't make it in the dreaded adversity of the estuary?
There might be a curve in the river I guess.
It would be a better event without fuel in the estuary...

[Russ Manheimer]

Jim,

There's an 18' Menger Cat at Beaton's that has a robust tabernacle for a folding mast. It could work. Especially the trawling bit. Even hand-lining would serve.

Russ

[Hwyl]

There are even Bolger cat boats with tabernacles.

Susanne, I think you are doing this forum a disservice, there are many participants on here who could manage such a race, and many would look forward to it with delight.

[matoi]

Susanne,

which of his designs do you think PB would choose for this race?

BTW, it doesn't go offshore, but Sail Caledonia (www.sailcaledonia.org) looks quite attractive for small sail & oar boats....

Best wishes,

Mato

[Jim Ledger]

Jim,

There's an 18' Menger Cat at Beaton's that has a robust tabernacle for a folding mast. It could work. Especially the trawling bit. Even hand-lining would serve.

Russ

Menger catboat, Russ? Fiberglass. :eek: I'm sure that wouldn't meet the requirements of the Race Committee in the Eco-Friendly department.

But, I take your point about the tabernacle.

Taking the fishing requirement a bit further, maybe harpooning a nice tasty swordfish might be a better activity for the offshore leg than either hand-lining or trawling. History tells us that this used to be a common practice using medium-sized catboats, and apart from the usual scarcity and generally uncooperative nature of the quarry, I see little reason why this could not be revived as a profitable venture for three-person teams who like to build their own boats. This race might be the ideal showcase to promote the revival of this long dormant activity.

The boats would have to feature a crows-nest and a twenty five foot bowsprit, gin pole and harpoons, all of which might possibly be used to advantage in other aspects of the race.


Cheers

Jim

[Jim Ledger]

There are even Bolger cat boats with tabernacles.


:D:D:D

[Paul Pless]

The air will be just thick with dread, I can tell you.maybe a kedging leg should included??

[Jim Ledger]

maybe a kedging leg should included??

The Dreaded Kedging Leg! :eek:

I like it, Paul. How bout this...the bottom should be mud, like soft peanut butter, with at least six hundred feet between the buoys. One hundred ninety foot maximum anchor rodes allowed, no dinghys, no winches, the anchor must be floated out lashed to an inflatable fender by a swimmer.

[sirgordy]

Back to the original idea. I think you should read about the Everglades Challange more carefully.
It's 300 miles with open Gulf of Mexico, very shallow Florida Bay and "filters".

The filters are in place to limit the size of the boats.

First, all boats must start from above the high water line on the beach at Fort Desoto Park in Tampa Bay. The crew, maximum of two, can have no assistance in the launch and everything used in the launch must be taken along for the entire trip.

The first check point requires a paddle of about 1/2 mile up a small creek after passing under an abandoned railroad bridge. Clearance is about 10 or 12 feet wide and about 6 or 7 feet high.
Hobie Cats, Beach Cats, Lightnings, Core Sounds, and NorseBoats are some of the boats that have done it.

Check Point 2 requires sailing in the open Gulf and then up a twisty channel between mangrove islands to land on a very muddy beach, sign in and back out to the Gulf. From here the kayaks take one of a number of routes through the Everglades to Check Point 3.

The sailboats go around the southern tip of Florida, sail or row into the little harbor, sign in , and then across Florida Bay to Key Largo.

The 30 some miles in Florida Bay can be the most trying. Until this you aint seen shallow! The really shallow areas have channels that often are just a few feet deep themselves and are marked with pvc pipes stuck in the mud. When the wind is out of the east (most of the time) the "Twisty Mile Channel" can test the best of crews.

Did I mention NO MOTORS?

Oh yah, these people never struck me as hippies. They're doctors, engineers, housewives, retirees and who knows what else. What I do know is that I have a deep respect for anyone who's compleated an Everglades Challange.

[Jim Ledger]

The Dread Kedge Leg would be a good filter, IMHO. As would the swordfishing requirement.

Keep the boats to a nice middling size.

[John Smith]

Ah, the constant desire for another way to race.

Would one wish to come in first, or come in dry?

All boats, to my mind, are a compromise. I've sailed on some very quick(and very wet) boats.

I've sailed on boats that require more agility than I now have.

I think I'd like to see an event that shows which boat is the best compromise of performance and comfort.

[Susanne@PB&F]

Good Thread so far. Good reference to the Everglades Challenge. No need to fish though...

The underlying ambition of the proposal is to re-calibrate more broadly the basic assumptions about 'Desirable Characteristics in Sailing Cruisers'.

Early and recent rule-meisters alike seem to have done us no favors in their narrowing of 'acceptable' attributes, judging by the tenor of various glossies beyond WOODENBOAT and the typically limited utility they offer for coastal and shallow-water cruising.

[Susanne@PB&F]

Addition on Nov.8, 11:02 EST
Dept. "How could this be forgotten":
Add to the List of Desirables
- highest degree of 'sinking resistance'.

[Jim Ledger]

No need to fish though...

.

Is that a absolute ruling from above, or just a guideline?

I'm sorry, but it seems like an arbitrary dismissal of an idea that should be debated, pros and con, at length, by the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

What about the Kedge Leg?

[Canoeyawl]

Well if the twenty-five foot bowsprit was wide enough it could double as a wheelchair ramp to get up the beach. If it was fifty feet long, we could use it to good purpose in the dreaded kedging portion of the contest. Is there a limit on the length of the bowsprit? In meters?

[Jim Ledger]

I think that "Wheelchair Accessible" should figure positively in any kind of handicapping system that might be devised.

[Canoeyawl]

I might use some of the fuel to run a powered windlass through the kedging portion of the race.

[Paul Pless]

One hundred ninety foot maximum anchor rodes allowed.all chain of course

[Canoeyawl]

all chain of course
Stowed in a footwell on the foredeck

[Paul Pless]

that could be part of the selfrighting design strategy.... when the boat heels to about 100 degrees or so and the anchor and rode falls overboard, I betcha most boats would pop right back up :D

[S/V Laura Ellen]

The organizers of the International Fisherman's Cup had somewhat similar concept. They were disillusioned by the frailty of the America's cup races and thought that it would be better to see real sailors sailing real boats.

One of the rules of the International Fisherman's Cup was that the vessel was required to fish the Grand Banks for the year prior to the races. This ensured that the vessels competing would remain "real boats".

[matoi]

Arguably, the first regatta organised in Europe was a fisherman's 40 Nm race under sail and oars in 1593. - the winning boat had the right to choose the best fishing spot around the island of Palagruza... about 74 boats competed that year and the event turned into a tradition that held for a long time.

[Canoeyawl]

that could be part of the selfrighting design strategy.... :D
And self anchoring!

[kenjamin]

With removable flotation and a crew of three, my Caledonia Yawl, Xena, can do all that without fuel. I would have to install a redesigned mast step for the bridge shoot though. What would the target species of fish be? Would someone like to bet against her?;)

[Canoeyawl]

Perhaps the target species could be Mud-Hens, we should let the onshore fisheries recover for a couple of hundred years.

[Jim Ledger]

Hey, Scot, or whoever...can we get a Sticky over here? :D

[Susanne@PB&F]

Oh, did I mention it to be an ocean-capable cruiser/liveaboard... ?

[Jim Ledger]

No you didn't mention that, and it sounds like another unfair rule aimed at the catboats.

[Paul Pless]

I thought you and Tracey were planning on moving on board S/V F. X. McInnerney. :confused:

[kenjamin]

Dear Susanne,

Do you want it to be car-toppable too???

[Jim Ledger]

I thought you and Tracey were planning on moving on board S/V F. X. McInnerney. :confused:

Well, if that's what it takes to get in the lineup...let's see, live on boat, mast tabernacle for eight inch solid mast, one hundred and eighty feet of chain, harpoon, bow pulpit, beer...this yacht racing thing is going to be expensive.

[Canoeyawl]

Is there a limit on masts?

[rbgarr]

Is there a limit on masts?

Let's make it ten.

[DGentry]

Perhaps a little restraint is in order. All racing rules are arbitrary.

Suzanne's requirements loosely define what Philip Bolger espoused for many years - that a truly capable cruising boat should be capable of cruising more than just deep water passages, harbors and dredged channels.

Ocean capable, shallow draft, safe, fuel efficient and with easily lowered masts - does anyone really have a problem with that?

Dave Gentry

[Canoeyawl]

Ocean capable and landing on the beach are not generally compatable.
Shoal draft, motorsailer, ocean capable and tabernacled masts for canal/bridge work can be done...
Here's one (http://www.thewharfathandyspoint.com/boats/Sparkman0001.html)

[Susanne@PB&F]

Re Canoyawls's perspective. Lot's of books and designs left to absorb...

An S&S with 4'6" draft ? Beachable ? Over a 3-foot bar under sail, poking around murky tidal currents in the race ?

[Woxbox]

It does all sound a lot like a Wharram cat to me. But the AS29 fits, as does the oversized version of that boat. I do myself like the notion of a boat that can be easily let dry out on a beach and that can duck under low bridges, too.

Phil drew a large cruising cat -- it was asymetrical with the rig on one hull. The other hull carried a sizable tender that served as a yawl boat to push the mothership around when power was needed. Was one of those ever built? The hulls were far beamier than the Wharram cats to make the boat more livable.

[Susanne@PB&F]

Woxbox, no, it was never build. But 40'x20' DOUBLE EAGLE was and is doing charter service in Gustavus, AK.

[bob easton]

Oh, did I mention it to be an ocean-capable cruiser/liveaboard... ?

Oh, does that mean the race has to be long enough to:
a) justify three changes of clothing, or
b) require the use of the WC?
c) and require 4 hours sleep in a horizontal, or near horizontal, attitude
d) and preparing at least a four course meal for the judges who will visit from boat to boat? (whilst not being busy testing PFDs in capsizing dinghies)

[Susanne@PB&F]

The point is to reexamine all the self-restricting ideas that make most 'conventional' sailing (cabin-)cruisers ever to much less useful and so much less safe in the two extremes of coastal waters - where most of us usually cruise - of offshore legs and 'brown-water' exploration or Hurricane protection.

The length of the Challenge could be anything, perhaps with enough time for the young-at-heart in this Thread to fool around with fishing-gear and for all I care chanting at the tern just enough to burn off that extra energy.


To summarize the idea Phil Bolger and I have kicked around for quite a few years:
In light of the 'mono-cultural' developments in various local and global Sailing cup/Challenges/etc. we propose a Cup that would foster more 'real-world'-relevant design-developments:

'Our' Cup-Challenge would require
- an ocean-capable cruiser/liveaboard...
- build in wood as the primary structural material (w/composite wood-enhancements optional),
- potentially buildable by the owner,
- with a highest degree of 'sinking resistance'
doing
- a good offshore leg,
- then going over a 3-foot bar under sail-power for sensible 'brown-water' capabilities,
- and shooting a bridge with rig lowered,
- carrying a maximum amount of fuel allowed to be used to manage adversity in the tidal/estuary leg of the course,
- beachable to allow a dash by a designated runner of the crew up the beach to the judges' finish-line after a controlled/no hull-damage beaching.

That would teach everybody something we can go to sea and up the narrow/shallow waters of estuaries with...
Defining your priorities as to their real-world relevance is part of charm of this Cup-Challenge. And this would indeed challenge sailors in ways most might dread, particularly the offshore sleigh-drivers - hence the term 'Challenge'.

[kenjamin]

This design by San Francisco Bay tugboat captain, William Short, meets the design brief and can probably catch fish too. It can be made self-righting and unsinkable under most circumstances. No speed demon, for sure, but probably moves well with a four horse four stroke if need be. Plenty of room on the big stern for a swim ladder to one side of the rudder and the four horse outboard on the other side. Larger stern window could be made to open to attend to motor. The bow sprit off the Great Pelican could be employed on this Yangtze version to hoist the short mast and to set a jib. Then an offset mizzen (swim ladder side) could be set to balance the helm with the jib set. Instead of one centerboard, two boards could be used to open the center of the boat for a double bed. Weight it down enough and maybe the bottom would not slap at anchor. Almost "instant" cheap floating apartment.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/YangtzeBoat.jpg

[Susanne@PB&F]

What an ignominious stage reached in this Thread. Too radical a set of racing-under-cruising-sails priorities for too many to have this Thread go lame on this visual note...??

[huisjen]

I'm wondering what your fuel allowance means for electrics.

There are a lot of boats that could do without any motor and use muscle power to get there.

Dan

[kenjamin]

For the other art majors on the forum:

Main Entry: ig·no·min·i·ous
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 : marked with or characterized by disgrace or shame : dishonorable
2 : deserving of shame or infamy : despicable
3 : humiliating, degrading <suffered an ignominious defeat>
— ig·no·min·i·ous·ly adverb
— ig·no·min·i·ous·ness noun

So I take it that this is not the week that we celebrate diversity?

One should not be surprised to find boxy boats with large amounts of volume and initial stability if they are designed for a race that requires the masts to be taken down to sneak under a low bridge, the hulls be large enough to live in and at the same time the boats are capable of being built by the home builder/owner.

I think the Yangtze Pelican is kind of cute in an ugly duckling sort of way. And I have an art degree!!!:D

[Susanne@PB&F]

Ehh, nothing wrong with Art or 'boxes'. Diversity indeed. But 'Dead Air' ? For days on end ? After you show your picture ? Perhaps you jinxed da Thread...

I hope you'll quote only from WEBSTERS 2nd edition, as that has still the rich body of nautical terms later copies seem to have lost.

[Daniel Noyes]

What an ignominious stage reached in this Thread. Too radical a set of racing-under-cruising-sails priorities for too many to have this Thread go lame on this visual note...??

Ouch, very harsh
and ken was actually trying to contribute!

contribute what, well were not sure, some sort of odd junked rigged monstrosity, (are those pipes screwed to planks as oars?)... but the intent was good.

[Daniel Noyes]

Phil Bolger and I have kicked this around for quite a few years.
In light of the 'mono-cultural' developments in various local and global Sailing cup/Challenges/etc. we propose a Cup that would foster more 'real-world'-relevant design-developments:

'Our' Cup-Challenge would require
- a good offshore leg,
- shooting a bridge with rig lowered,
- going over a 3-foot bar under sail-power,
- a maximum amount of fuel allowed to be used to manage adversity in the tidal/estuary leg of the course,
- and a dash by a designated runner of the crew up the beach to the judges' finish-line after a controlled/no hull-damage beaching.
Now that would teach everybody something we can go to sea and up the narrow/shallow waters of estuaries with...

(Addition on Nov.8, 11:02 EST)
Dept. How could this be forgotten:
Add to this list
- highest degree of 'sinking resistance'.

(Addition on Nov. 10, 07:37 EST)
Oh, did I mention it to be
- an ocean-capable cruiser/liveaboard...

Defining your priorities as to their real-world relevance is part of charm of this Cup-Challenge. And this would indeed challenge sailors in ways most might dread, particularly the offshore sleigh-drivers - hence the term 'Challenge'.

Re direct
Why would a racing boat want to lower it's rig?... not that it cant be done but why lower it on the water sounds like a bad idea... I live on the only body of water around with a fixed bridge (Rt1a Parker River Newbury Ma) and significant water up stream... but no good sailing ground up there.
all the other bridges around are draws...easier to get on the radio to the bridge operator than lower your rig...

Measured amount of Fuel should be 0 gallons! a real sailboat should be able to make it against a tidal estuary, I have sailed out of the Parker for yrs. with no motor... just sail a good performing boat!

The Winner!
my Ideal entry for this competiton would be a A Class racing scow, 38'x 8' 1,700 sq ft of sail, weight 1,850 lbs.!
Put a dodger/small cuddy for crew to get out of the elements, a rig that makes reefing sail simple, meets the draft restriction and a arrangement could likely be made to lower mast on the water(bad idea)
15+knot top sailing speed
http://www.ascow.org/Portals/0/Gallery/Album/10/A%20'08%20NC's%20MI%20045.jpg

[Susanne@PB&F]

Lowering the mast(s) is vital to safe cruising along almost any shoreline when weather or curiosity suggests going under the bridge and open up a new teritory - or just the best dang hurricane hole. Not to mention being able to do masthead work standing soundly on two feet...

Inshore and offshoring cruising was one of the prerequisites.

[DGentry]

Clearly, many of the Bolger boats are suitable as entrants, and the proposed rules clearly reflect this guiding philosophy.
But, there are many other examples of suitable boats, as well - though "suitable" might be left up to the sailor and his limits of discomfort, endurance and seamanship. Very small boats like the Rob Roy canoe, the canoe yawls of the late 19th cent, and Fenger's Yakaboo canoe proved to be more or less "ocean capable" long-distance cruisers.

Larger boats like the classic sharpies, including Munroe's Egret (and Chapelle's derivatives) might qualify, as would any number of the old scow schooners. Let's not forget the Dutch Boeiers and the like, either. Munroe's Presto, Clapham's nonpareil sharpie, Minocqua, and Day's Sea Bird, were even more capable than these.

Many a centerboard (or leeboard) boat has been designed and built since then, and many of them would be able to compete under these rules, with only minor modifications for the mast (for most of them). This would include stock boats like Catalina 22s, Rhodes 19s (swing keel version), the humble Macgregor 26 - as mentioned - a whole lot of open camp cruising dinghies, and even Kenjamin's artistic offering. Remembering, of course, that "suitable" for offshore work means different things to different people.

As noted, any Wharram catamaran would easily qualify (mast tabernacles being added when necessary), too. In fact, most any cruising multihull - with some added provision for dropping the mast - would be superb in all the categories. "Highest degree of sinking resistance" being superior indeed, because thousands of pounds of extraneous weight aren't required to keep them upright.

Not being interested in going to sea in a canoe, a comfortable, but fast, multi would definitely be my first choice in this race, even over and above the A scow . . . .


All racing rules are utterly arbitrary. The herein proposed sailing cup challenge demands a lot of qualities that would be advantageous in a cruising boat. A popular race of this sort could lead to some cool innovations .
The America's Cup has come up with a lot of cool innovations, too, to rise to the challenge of that set of equally arbitrary rules.

Dave Gentry

[Susanne@PB&F]

Hear, hear.

[Woxbox]

Not being interested in going to sea in a canoe, a comfortable, but fast, multi would definitely be my first choice in this race, even over and above the A scow . . . .

Little question about that. Set up a 30-foot tri with a mast that can be dropped, and you've got the trophy in the bag.

Now about that scow -- with a float on the masthead, you could drop it over, slide it under the bridge, and then use crew weight to pop it back up again. That would be a fine show!

[Susanne@PB&F]

We'll install bleachers at the bridge.

[Daniel Noyes]

Little question about that. Set up a 30-foot tri with a mast that can be dropped, and you've got the trophy in the bag.

Now about that scow -- with a float on the masthead, you could drop it over, slide it under the bridge, and then use crew weight to pop it back up again. That would be a fine show!

Wouldnt multi hulls have their own class?! they get pushed off int their own category in every other race where a mono hull shows up (sore loosers).

I like the scow on it's side, far quicker than lowering sail and fooling around with some silly tabernacle contrivance! all the crew can sit on the side of the cockpit coaming and paddle through the darn bridge... all the bridges I know that don't open don't have any sailing on the other side!

How about a Lemans start with the boat on the trailer ready for the road? set up time at the launching ramp may be far more relevant than dropping mast in the middle of a river to go under a bridge.

[sirgordy]

I think Graham Byrnes' Princess comes pretty close. Perhaps it could be made boxier and clumsier to satisfy the Bolger fans.......
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princess.htm


http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princsailing1.jpg

[DGentry]

Perhaps it could be made boxier and clumsier to satisfy the Bolger fans.......

Clearly you speak from sheer ignorance.

[huisjen]

I think a fine example of a bridge to go under is the one by Coose's place in South Bristol. It's about 20' wide and 15' clearance at low tide. Sliding a 32' scow with a 40' mast through that slot on it's side, with a current, just isn't going to happen.

Dan

[Susanne@PB&F]

Hear, hear Mr DGentry.

[Daniel Noyes]

I think Graham Byrnes' Princess comes pretty close. Perhaps it could be made boxier and clumsier to satisfy the Bolger fans.......
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princess.htm


http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princsailing1.jpg

See Ya at the finish line!... or mabey not, as my crew and I will already be in town at the after party, after the lobster/clam bake held at the finish line... there may be a few cold clams and warm beers left for you guys when you arrive after dark.

ps
plenty boxy and high-sided as is
actually most bolger designs ar far more shapely than above, it's the self described "Box Boats" Bolger was making a design statment with the box.


http://www.ascow.org/Portals/0/Gallery/Album/10/A%20'08%20NC's%20MI%20045.jpg

[DGentry]

Ms. Altenburger, your husband's ideas and designs were a profound influence on my formative boatbuilding years, and I continue to try to learn as much about his many designs as I can. I am still saddened by by his absence and by your loss.

I'm sure it must be hard for you, today, but I hope you can have a happy Thanksgiving.

Dave Gentry

[Woxbox]

I think a fine example of a bridge to go under is the one by Coose's place in South Bristol. It's about 20' wide and 15' clearance at low tide. Sliding a 32' scow with a 40' mast through that slot on it's side, with a current, just isn't going to happen.

OK, Dan, maybe you won't get through. But you will get to the bridge first, and once lodged against the pilings by the current, no one else is going to pass. :D

[Susanne@PB&F]

Thank you Mr Gentry,
words still fail me. 'Amputation' is one suitable term. I keep finding myself expecting him to be 'there' after all...

But my health remains good, my sleeping improves, and there is so much that needs doing in this office, with the archive, and other projects we shared.

A good Thanksgiving to you. I'll slide an apple-pie into the oven shortly to take to a small gathering this afternoon.|

Susanne

[sirgordy]

Sorry about the clumsy crack. Bolger's boats work and 'pretty is as pretty does'.

If I'm going to go to the trouble of building a boat I prefer one that's pretty to my eye and performs well. But everyone's eye is different.

[Susanne@PB&F]

It just all depends on which 'Bolger' boat you are talking about out of say 680 designs

[Daniel Noyes]

ps
plenty boxy and high-sided as is
actually most bolger designs ar far more shapely than above, it's the self described "Box Boats" Bolger was making a design statment with the box.

Bolgers Box Boats are unashamed, honest boxes, as someone with formal training in the field of design I appreciate that.
on the other end of the spectrum is the historic working sharpie that takes a box and makes it as beautifull as any other hull shape I appreciate that as well.
It is designs that fall in the luke warm middle, not the courage to be a BOX and not the grace/willingness to give up interior space to be beautifull, these designs fall very flat for me aesthetically.

As Susanne mentions if you know Bolger for his box boats you dont know Bolger boats

[Daniel Noyes]

OK, Dan, maybe you won't get through. But you will get to the bridge first, and once lodged against the pilings by the current, no one else is going to pass. :D

Back to the races.

OK mabey conventional mast lowering will be necessary to clear this obstacle.

But here's where an A scow will shine
these 38' scows are trailer sailed in the midwest. The heart land is peppered with little lakes and there is a regatta at a different lake each weekend, the A has a deck stepped mast and it is short work for the crews to drop and raise a mast.

I would propose another legg to the race!
the race begins 200 miles inland where the teams trailer the boats cross country, set up and launch their craft at a designated launch site, then race the lenght of the course

[Woxbox]

Dan -- A fine idea. But how does one figure port/starboard tack on the highway?

[Susanne@PB&F]

You just take that left steering wheel for a while and then the right steering wheel. I'd suggest shifter-on-the-column and a bench-seat for ready greased-butt adjustment per tack. Yeah, that'll do it...

[kenjamin]

I think the point of this exercise is that by designing the race, you have already designed the boat. You may have not arrived at the optimal final configuration of the boat, but it is there waiting to be discovered. The point I was trying to make with the Yangtze Pelican is that if one were clever enough, he or she could design a race where only the Yangtze Pelican could win. Of course you may need to update the rig a bit.

[Susanne@PB&F]

Of course we have candidates in our archive and in the sketch-file. But we have them since clients have been unhappy with the 'usual designs fare' not addressing serious ergonomic, safety, utility and even first and operational cost issues. And the 'usual fare' is underevolved indeed in light of a broad range of handicaps-by-design. Designers have often failed to consider what a cruiser for coastal or transoceanic uses has to be able to do.
- Since these boats cost so much, did I mention as part of the rules 3-4-season habitability ?

[Susanne@PB&F]

To pull this all together at posting #80 here is the whole shebang:

" Phil Bolger and I have kicked this around for quite a few years.
In light of the 'mono-cultural' developments in various local and global Sailing cup/Challenges/etc. we propose a Cup that would foster more 'real-world'-relevant design-developments:

'Our' Cup-Challenge would require
- an ocean-capable cruiser/liveaboard,
- with highest degree of 'sinking resistance',
- reasonably affordable (mushy that one, without excluding carbon-this and titanium-that)
- doing a good offshore leg,
- shooting a bridge with rig lowered,
- going over a 3-foot bar under sail-power,
- a maximum amount of fuel allowed to be used to manage adversity in the tidal/estuary leg of the course,
- and a dash by a designated runner of the crew up the beach to the judges' finish-line after a controlled/no hull-damage beaching.
Now that would teach everybody something we can go to sea and up the narrow/shallow waters of estuaries with...

Defining your priorities as to their real-world relevance is part of charm of this Cup-Challenge. And this would indeed challenge sailors in ways most might dread, particularly the offshore sleigh-drivers - hence the term 'Challenge'."

So there it stands - "The Challenge".

Which designs would fit that ambitious set of characteristics ?

[Woxbox]

But Susanne -- if this is a race, "speed under sail" ought to be on the list, too. That said, if I was to build such a boat, I wouldn't put speed at the top of my priorities if I was going to use the boat mostly for cruising, and maybe once or twice to race.

So I wonder what the race would prove -- the best boat for the race would not be the best boat for most other waterborne endeavors.

And having said all that, I think someone at the top of this thread suggested a Wharram catamaran would serve quite well. And that's my perspective, too. But that boat probably would not win, although it's crew would certainly enjoy the race immensely and arrive at the finish line rested, comfortable and ready for another cruise.

[Susanne@PB&F]

How big a Wharram to live-aboard in earnest ?

[Woxbox]

I always very much liked the look of the Pahi 42, aka Captain Cook. I suppose the next question is, "How do you drop that mast at sea." Having seen the BMW Oracle crew set up the biggest wingmast in history with a gin pole out on the water, I can't imagine the little stick on the Pahi 42 would be a real problem. A solid tabernacle and a bit of leverage should do it.

[Susanne@PB&F]

If you can handle her in the tidal narrow waters, including drying her out on 'unraked' bottom, folks will welcome the addition.

We thought that this list of particulars underlying the Challenge might make enough folks re-assess what they often consider a 'sound cruising design' and then perhaps re-scan the archives, examine contemporary offerings and nudge future concepts to be more inclusive in their ambitions for a better cost-utility ratio.

P.S. Would you live aboard her year-round here in Gloucester, MA ?

[OconeePirate]

I'm wondering what your fuel allowance means for electrics.

There are a lot of boats that could do without any motor and use muscle power to get there.

Dan


Maybe start of race fuel measured by weight and volume? x weight of batteries is equivalent to y volume of fuel?

[Woxbox]

P.S. Would you live aboard her year-round here in Gloucester, MA ?

Probably not, but I wouldn't have to, either. Those cats are decidedly more agreeable in warm climates. But the whole point with such a boat is to move as the weather changes dictate, right?

[Susanne@PB&F]

Only if you have no job-obligations, interest in a local network of friends, reasonable contact with your physician, etc.
Phil lived 365/year aboard for 15 years, myself with him for 5.

If you are free to move, fine.

Our point has been to focus on designing of liveaboard craft (for what they cost) that can offer a healthy environment year-around in which ever place you choose or find yourself in due to health issues, job-location, social opportunities/obligations.

Being forced to move with the seasons always seemed to reflect poorly on the net utility of any 'live-aboard'.

[Susanne@PB&F]

Anybody home ?

[OconeePirate]

I think that the Everglades Challenger thread may have stolen the bench racing thunder.

[Susanne@PB&F]

Too muggy by half. And bugs too. I hope the masts come down... Is anyone chine-sailing in knee-deep water ?

[Woxbox]

Our point has been to focus on designing of liveaboard craft (for what they cost) that can offer a healthy environment year-around in which ever place you choose or find yourself in due to health issues, job-location, social opportunities/obligations.

Susanne - I much appreciate that quest, and it makes plenty of sense to me. But I'm not sure how a contest that puts a high priority on vessel speed will help develop such a boat.

We had a contest here once to see who would live the longest out on the walkway at the base of a billboard. To the sponsor's surprise, it lasted well more than a year. If a highly liveable but affordable boat is the goal, isn't that more the sort of contest that will produce such a design? (I hate to make the link here, but I believe that 1000-day guy is still out there in his ferro-cement contraption. He may be off the wall, but he is nonetheless showing what can be done.)

[Susanne@PB&F]

Speed is less the intention but formulating a conceptually appropriate response to the whole package of parameter posted earlier.

Can the craft do all these things - and go somewhere in reasonable progress ?

Too many 'cruisers' are not good enough at their self-stated objective.

[kenjamin]

Seems like a big sharpie would fill the bill pretty well unless there would be some limit in the race rules about how many times you can bang your head on the cabin roof. Maybe something along the lines of Monroe's Egret would be good if you believe the Commodore's testimonies about her seaworthiness. Of these I personally like Iain Oughtred's Haiku although a ketch rig would probably be better at lowering masts for a bridge especially if the mast steps were gated similar to what Pete Culler would have done were he around for your race.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Haiku1.jpg

[Susanne@PB&F]

Mentioning 'big sharpie' and then posting a smallish one while discussing 'hard-hat' habits is an odd thing to do. To live aboard, an RV-type concept matters in terms of inhabitable foot-print, carrying capacity, narrow-waters and trans-oceanic capability. So instead of a that, you are showing a cute and elegant 2-seater drop-top runabout equivalent, good for 'week-ending' or two.

'Big sharpies' do indeed allow full head-room above an insulated bottom and below an insulated deck. Four-season liveaboard capability - say in Gloucester MA - is an economic necessity for what things cost, and ergonomically not insignificantly either, with and without that hard hat.

[john welsford]

I think that there are some very good candidates for the criteria set above among the English South Coast Sailing Barges. Most people know of the Thames Barges, but there were lots of variations on the theme some of which were a nice 45 ft and 30 tonnes loaded, had masts that could drop and be swung up fast enough to "shoot" bridges and which had extraordinary interior volumes without being so blunt ended that they wouldnt sail well. They were flat bottomed and sat on the mud while being loaded, typically had load and discharge ports up at the tidal limits of the creeks and rivers, and carried everything from Porcelain clay for the crockery factories to hay and general farm produce. It was the railway that killed them but they were extraordinary little ships in that they had to wriggle up and down the creeks in the shallows as well as sail along the coast in the fast currents, extensive reefs and gale force winds of one of the worlds worst weather areas.

Note that they were most of them sailed by a "man and a boy". The boy might be 75 years old, but the second on these was always, the "boy".

I am very sure that PCB had studied these pretty well as there are lots of hints in his designs that he knew them well, and rather than sharpies which have to be awfully big to get a liveable interior volume, one of these would work very well.

John Welsford

[kenjamin]

[QUOTE... you are showing a cute and elegant 2-seater drop-top runabout equivalent, good for 'week-ending' or two.
.[/QUOTE]

Well that explains why I drive an MX-5 Mazda Miata.

Some people just like to go fast while they live. At some point you'll have to decide what's more important to the judges of the race – winning or living comfortably, of course all the while being easy to build (kind of like a sharpie).

What kind of prize are you offering for the winner? I would gladly live on a Haiku for a year if the prize were significant. Down here in Florida, that would be fun for at least long enough to collect that prize money. Zoom! Zoom!

Question: Are you trying to promote a race or an impossible set of parameters???

[OconeePirate]

you are showing a cute and elegant 2-seater drop-top runabout equivalent, good for 'week-ending' or two.


What kind of prize are you offering for the winner? I would gladly live on a Haiku for a year if the prize were significant. Down here in Florida, that would be fun for at least long enough to collect that prize money. Zoom! Zoom!


I'll have no part of it, but it'd be entertaining to see an endurance contest for Puddle Duck racers. Maybe see who can stay onboard the longest while making a minimum distance a day?

[kenjamin]

Just to be clear, the quote:

"you are showing a cute and elegant 2-seater drop-top runabout equivalent, good for 'week-ending' or two."

was written by Suzanne Altenberger.

[kenjamin]

I'm still trying to figure out what comfort has to do with racing. Will there be a judge measuring comfort???

[rbgarr]

I think the Dutch boiers would do well meeting the criteria. This is the only drawing I could find online. Some had less keel and would ground out on the level.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2lbmb2a.png

Assuming the Bolger liveaboard referred to is Resolution, I have trouble imagining her sailing up a narrow, shallow estuary against the tide into the wind, but I'm thinking of narrow marshy creeks such as you'd find along the Intracoastal Waterway. Isn't she 46+ feet long? How might she do in the 'fuel use' criteria I wonder? Anyone know?

http://i47.tinypic.com/120ow0n.jpg

Living aboard (even grounded out) is becoming increasingly less viable along the coast. Towns are coming up with restrictions on it: "Tax avoiding freeloaders using town services".

Of course, if you've got your own waterfront or friends who permit you to use theirs (but even then neighbors can complain....)

[Susanne@PB&F]

The 'Egret'-style notion of a 'sharpie' is just one early 20th century flavor.

Very different ergonomics and cost-structure per unit of 'habitability' are certainly part of our archive.
AS-29 is 29' with just enough 'headroom'.
Sharpie AS-34 is 34' with plenty, plus 4-season habitability
Etc.

On the other hand Folding 60' sharpie schooner INSOLENT-60 is low and very lean for trailering, 'doable' folding, but still should sleep 4-5 in reasonable 'racing'-oriented comfort. Sleeker than any Egret at 60'(/29 10")x8'. "Experimental" only...

[Susanne@PB&F]

Notice how neither the british nor dutch traditional craft cited ever seriously influenced respective country's 'yachting' design-history. Likely a class-warfare thing to avoid an older man, the youngster and the dog to run right by the 'yachties' due to daily practice and knowledge of the waters. Lots of reproductions - but no world-influencing domestic evolution based on them.

US sharpie 'survival' and then significant evolution under Bolger and others reflects much lower 'contact-anxiety' with craft that are 'other' than the clubs' sea-lawyers dream up over fine single-malt and limited imagination.
Highly evolved simple shapes can vastly exceed expectations of the uninitiated.

[Susanne@PB&F]

These are surely not 'impossible parameters'. This response confirms the need to consider this 'Challenge' in greater depth.

Year-round habitability here in the North-East define 'comfort' just fine.

No "RESOLUTION" won't sail up the creeks with that rig - was never the intention for this motor-sailer - but can power forwards and backwards just fine through tight twists and dense anchorage since we gave her twin rudders that steer her in reverse as well.
GOOGLE EARTH the south end of Jones Creek to the west of the Annisquam and follow it. Set at 1000rpm I took her through there in reverse, turned her and went back without touching the throttle.
But she cycled 11,000 times with the tides in her various dry-out berths over the decades.

More people with craft capable of doing this would help keep the ordinance excesses under control. This 'Challenge' has deeper meaning than one more 'bowl'.

[rbgarr]

I disagree about Dutch yachts being uninfluenced by earlier adaptations to their shallow waters. Conditions haven't changed much for them except in deeply dredged or major rivers.

[rbgarr]

Who said anything about impossible parameters??

[Susanne@PB&F]

Well, in some states at least they vote, can get on local boards, and leverage the yacht-clubs to bring their interest to bear as well, once those clubs see the value in such geometries.

[rbgarr]

I can just imagine how well it would go down here if the local yacht club tried to throw its weight around!

Liveaboards in any significant numbers would be seen as squatters unless the laws changed to tax them for town services (sewage pumpouts, water service, schooling, fire and police protection, etc.)

[Susanne@PB&F]

Conditions have not changed, but I never saw as HISWA or BOOT or elsewhere the 'usual' next evolutionary stage of these ancestral roots. There are a few one-off exceptions here and there, but most clubs there (and here) teach that 'grounding out' is a calamity with insurance-paperwork and statements to the Coast Guard...
Even charts often show tidal shallow creeks as 'unnavigable' etc.

No, things are quite 'deep-draft-only'/5'='shoal-draft' decadent there and here, a few exceptions notwithstanding. This is what fueled much of Phil's work and later ours on this subject.

[rbgarr]

Is/was Resolution insured?

[Jim Ledger]

Notice how neither the british nor dutch traditional craft cited ever seriously influenced respective country's 'yachting' design-history.


When I think of a Dutch yacht, I usually picture a boat like this.

It would no doubt do poorly in this race the way the rules are structured although it has nice live-aboard accomodations. Folding it in half for trailering might be problematic.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010072.jpg

[rbgarr]

Jim,
Nice boat. Where was that photo taken?
(BTW, I think it would do fine in the challenge presented.)
So would L.F. Herreshoff's Golden Ball design: http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107073&highlight=adultery

[Jim Ledger]

Wickford, Rhode Island, Dave.

Do you think that the mast hinges on these boats like the Thames barges?

[rbgarr]

On the original boats used along canals they did.

Did someone live aboard the one in Wickford or did it just overwinter there?

[Jim Ledger]

I think that it's a permanent resident, at least it's always there when I drive through.

Here's a link to the Joe CSOH thread about the Dutch boats cruising the Hudson last summer. Some good examples of the type...

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102617

[rbgarr]

Thanks! I never saw that thread before. How interesting that there's a club/group of them. I wonder if Joe's 'favorite' had a centerboard. (No leeboards on that one.)

[Susanne@PB&F]

What's that about insurance ?

[kenjamin]

To pull this all together at posting #80 here is the whole shebang:

" Phil Bolger and I have kicked this around for quite a few years.
In light of the 'mono-cultural' developments in various local and global Sailing cup/Challenges/etc. we propose a Cup that would foster more 'real-world'-relevant design-developments:

'Our' Cup-Challenge would require
- an ocean-capable cruiser/liveaboard,
- with highest degree of 'sinking resistance',
- reasonably affordable (mushy that one, without excluding carbon-this and titanium-that)
- doing a good offshore leg,
- shooting a bridge with rig lowered,
- going over a 3-foot bar under sail-power,
- a maximum amount of fuel allowed to be used to manage adversity in the tidal/estuary leg of the course,
- and a dash by a designated runner of the crew up the beach to the judges' finish-line after a controlled/no hull-damage beaching.
Now that would teach everybody something we can go to sea and up the narrow/shallow waters of estuaries with...

Defining your priorities as to their real-world relevance is part of charm of this Cup-Challenge. And this would indeed challenge sailors in ways most might dread, particularly the offshore sleigh-drivers - hence the term 'Challenge'."

So there it stands - "The Challenge".

Which designs would fit that ambitious set of characteristics ?

In looking at the design parameters of the "The Challenge" once again, there is a boat which I would call 4 season comfortable in the Northeast but only because it could easily sail to the Southeast in the winter. This boat can be found on page 122 of Phil Bolger's book, "Different Boats". It is a truly beautiful boat titled the Swedish Cruiser. Of course if standing headroom were a requirement, this boat would be disqualified. It offers instead a boat which could be very responsive to sail with a 20" draft and a deck large enough to store a very able dory. This feature of the boat is what fascinates me most. Not for everyone, but if you want a truly seaworthy boat that can routinely take the bottom and you are a person who loves dories then this is the boat for you. And most importantly it could win the "Reasonable Sailing Cup-Challenge".

Susanne, may I have permission to post a picture of the Swedish Cruiser?

I think the Swedish Cruiser could be offered as a computer designed self-aligning kit of precut 1/2" marine fir for glued lapstrake construction. The cabin structure could be self-squaring and the side planks could wrap around that and key bulkheads to form the boat. Side plank sections could be shipped already beveled to be glued end-to-end in order to create their final length. This type of construction could shed a bunch of weight from the boat and give it winning racing thrills. Offset boards could open up the interior cabin. If the boards had neutral buoyancy, maybe they could be made to operate automatically using a simple mercury switch, some relays, and a couple of garage door openers. There could be multiple waterproof compartments to make the boat nearly unsinkable and if a great white sperm whale decided it didn't like the boat, you could always escape in the dory.

Of course I would want to put a couple of freestanding self-rotating birdwing masts on it but only if I were granted permission by the plan owner first. They could help with the windward performance if someone were curious enough to find out how well they work and like the as-drawn rig, their sails could be deployable and struck from the pilot's station.

[perldog007]

I would be curious to know which designs in the PB&F portfolio Susanne thinks are best suited for the challenge.

[Susanne@PB&F]

There is a range of sharpie-types and barge-yacht-types that would 'fit'.
Several most recent designs are as yet un-finished/un-published but strong contenders since designed around most, if not all, of the Challenge's parameters.

'Now that was singularly unhelpful, Susanne...' But can't be helped for the foreseeable months at least.

[kenjamin]

Let me try this one more time:

Susanne, may I have permission to post a picture of the Swedish Cruiser?

All information is helpful. The information you have provided is helpful in deciding that you don't really read other people's input and therefore this thread is pretty much a waste of time. I will go elsewhere for my boat design thrills.