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seanz
11-04-2009, 06:05 PM
Anybody using Foxit?

I do like to follow peoples links when they post them on a thread but I've found that I've stopped clicking on them when I see it's a pdf because Adobe Acrobat is a pain.

pcford
11-04-2009, 06:34 PM
I'm surprised. I find Acrobat and Reader quite satisfactory.

BZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong yet again, Donn, PDFs are miserable.

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html

elf
11-04-2009, 06:45 PM
Been using Reader for 10 years. Never had a problem.

Must be another reason to get a Mac.

pcford
11-04-2009, 06:59 PM
Maybe for sub-par individuals like you, but I've been reading and making PDFs for years, and have never had the slightest problem.

Didn't read the url did you? They are a pain on the web. But the ill-informed press on.

Do you mind if I call you Squeaky? That was Meerkat's name for you...it always seemed fitting.

elf
11-04-2009, 07:07 PM
I read the url. It was ill-informed.

pcford
11-04-2009, 07:17 PM
I read the url. It was ill-informed.

Jakob Nielsen is the acknowledged expert on web usability. It costs $600 to attend one of his talks.

You (and Squeaky) should go into that business if you consider that he is ill-informed.

ShagRock
11-04-2009, 07:26 PM
I for one have experienced problems using Acrobat, particularly with 'long' pdf files. It appears Foxit 3.1 is free. Is it easy to set up as default with Firefox and does Acrobat have to be uninstalled? I should ask who has compared the two before I do?

S/V Laura Ellen
11-04-2009, 07:36 PM
The article had some very good points.

PDF is a valuable format because it creates a portable document.
Any PC can print the document and it will always look the way the author intended. PDF does not require the PC printing the document to have the fonts loaded that are used in the document.

PDF is also, in most cases, a non-editable document. This ensures that the document being hosted remains as it was originally authored.


So if the document is meant to be printed or to remain unchanged, PDF is a very suitable document format.

If the document is meant to be viewed online then PDF is a poor format to use. In most cases the document doesn't resize to suit the window dimensions. Also, what looks very good in print, often doesn't translate very well for an online experience.

WX
11-04-2009, 07:39 PM
Another good point about PDFs, no one has figured out how to embed a virus in one. It is still the safest way to send docs via email.
Install Linux and use Evince.

ShagRock
11-04-2009, 07:52 PM
I understand Donn, but is that what Seanz was asking?

pcford
11-04-2009, 07:54 PM
Like I said, a PDF is a pi$$ poor format for the web. The problem is navigation, and a lot of other things. Read Neilson...won't repeat what he says.

Also, they are terrible bloatware. They can bring an old computer to its knees. They are a lazy man's way of doing things.

WX
11-04-2009, 07:58 PM
Open Office has a PDF editor/viewer extension.
http://www.labnol.org/software/download/openoffice-free-pdf-editor-without-acrobat/2187/

ShagRock
11-04-2009, 08:02 PM
Well then does it make sense to use Acrobat for uses as Donn points out and another program for simple reading of web pdfs?

WX
11-04-2009, 08:12 PM
You can also create PDFs using Open Office, just click the PDF button and it's done.

ShagRock
11-04-2009, 08:15 PM
Here's another review of Foxit and download, I assume the most recent version.

http://download.cnet.com/Foxit-Reader/3000-10743_4-10313206.html

ShagRock
11-04-2009, 09:43 PM
It sounds to me like PC doesn't know how to use Acrobat. There is no navigation problem. I send PDFs to lots of old PCs, and none have been brought to their knees.

"Bloatware" is a thing of the past. Hardware and memory is so cheap it can deal with any software.

So would increasing RAM improve the 'speed capability' for downloading and navigating pdfs?

pcford
11-04-2009, 10:12 PM
It sounds to me like PC doesn't know how to use Acrobat. There is no navigation problem. I send PDFs to lots of old PCs, and none have been brought to their knees.

"Bloatware" is a thing of the past. Hardware and memory is so cheap it can deal with any software.

Would you PLEASE read the url I furnished before blowing off on your "theories"!

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html

Argue with what Nielsen is offering.

Try to learn something Squeeky. Thanks.

ShagRock
11-04-2009, 10:36 PM
Again, the main question is how to improve the 'readability and navigation' of pdf files..not about creating them, sending them, or making money of them:).

So, would an automatic conversion to another format like html help with the original problem?

http://www.labnol.org/software/adobe-pdf-guide-tutorial/6296/

Yesac13
11-04-2009, 11:24 PM
I think Adobe Acrobat has gotten much better recently. It was truly awful a couple of years, bad enough that I started to use Foxit which works great!

I used Foxit for a couple of years until recently when I had to download Adobe Acrobat just to read some outboard service manuals (Foxit wouldn't work). That was when I found out Adobe Acrobat actually worked great. Do take care to be sure there's only one Adobe Acrobat version on your computer, though. Most times when people complained about Adobe Acrobat working badly, I almost always found more than one version... deleting all except the most recent tended to solve the problems...

shamus
11-04-2009, 11:46 PM
My problems with Reader vanished when I put a few gigs of extra RAM to work.

pcford
11-04-2009, 11:52 PM
Again, the main question is how to improve the 'readability and navigation' of pdf files..not about creating them, sending them, or making money of them:).

So, would an automatic conversion to another format like html help with the original problem?

http://www.labnol.org/software/adobe-pdf-guide-tutorial/6296/

There is absolutely no doubt that PDFs are terrible for use on the web. They are clunky and navigation is clumsy.

I realize that those in the print industry like them. But one often sees them used online for magazines or newsletters. Simply transcoded from the print format to online use. Another use online is catalogs. When I see PDFs used like this I don't look at the offerings. If a company has so little respect for the readers of its website...then perhaps this careless attitude will extend to its products.

As to your question about automatic conversion...I have never seen any of these converters that would even do a halfway decent job. The fact is that you have to write good, clean html markup if you want content to look good and work well on the web. Trying to cheat by using PDFs is cheesy and, as I said above, likely counterproductive.

tomlarkin
11-04-2009, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by pcford
BZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong yet again, Donn, PDFs are miserable


Note that the article is over 6 years old. It's obsolete information for the most part.

PDFs have their place, like any other specialized tool. As a woodworker, you should understand the concept of using the right tool for the job. A jigsaw is a miserable choice if you want a long, straight cut, but that doesn't make it a miserable tool, it just makes you a bad chooser of tools :-)

Kaa
11-05-2009, 12:11 AM
There is absolutely no doubt that PDFs are terrible for use on the web. They are clunky and navigation is clumsy.

I don't really understand your problem. Are you complaining PDFs are not web pages? Well, they are not web pages. And oranges are not apples. So?

The point of PDFs is to maintain presentation and formatting across different media, from screen to print. They do it quite well. Being, basically, Postscript files in a wrapper, they can do other things, too, like deal with vector-based images.

All in all, a tool designed for a particular purpose (which is not to pretend to be a web page).

Kaa

pcford
11-05-2009, 12:23 AM
I don't really understand your problem. Are you complaining PDFs are not web pages? Well, they are not web pages. And oranges are not apples. So?
.

Kaa

A more careful reader than you will note that my complaint is that they are used for web content quite frequently. And as you say, they are not web pages. They are very, very clumsy when used in this manner. You should be able to see that.

WX
11-05-2009, 12:28 AM
my complaint is that they are used for web content quite frequently.

True, particularly if you choose the view as html option.

pcford
11-05-2009, 12:28 AM
Note that the article is over 6 years old. It's obsolete information for the most part.

PDFs have their place, like any other specialized tool. As a woodworker, you should understand the concept of using the right tool for the job. A jigsaw is a miserable choice if you want a long, straight cut, but that doesn't make it a miserable tool, it just makes you a bad chooser of tools :-)

Why is it outdated? Navigation on web PDFs has not changed.
Nielson: "Update 2008: Our new studies keep finding the same problems with PDF in online interfaces. "

"A jigsaw is a miserable choice if you want a long, straight cut, but that doesn't make it a miserable tool, it just makes you a bad chooser of tools"

THAT is PRECISELY MY POINT. jeebus. PDFs are used frequently online and they suck for this use.

Glad we can agree.

Kaa
11-05-2009, 12:30 AM
A more careful reader than you will note that my complaint is that they are used for web content quite frequently. And as you say, they are not web pages. They are very, very clumsy when used in this manner. You should be able to see that.

"Web content" is not web pages either. Web content includes images, Excel spreadsheets, maps, binaries to download, and tons of other weird and not so weird stuff.

For example, I see no problems with companies putting their catalog as a PDF on the web. That's not their web store -- that's their printed catalog in downloadable form, which is perfectly fine. Among other things, I can download it and browse it off-line.

I am sure there are people who did stupid things with PDFs. But that's not an indictment of the PDF format -- any more than seeing people pound in nails with pliers means pliers are completely "miserable", "a pain", or a "poor tool".

Kaa

pcford
11-05-2009, 12:39 AM
Web content includes images, Excel spreadsheets, maps, binaries to download, and tons of other weird and not so weird stuff.


Strictly speaking, at least some of this stuff is not "proper" web content. For example you can put a Word doc on a server and it can be called by using the .doc extension. Does that make it web content? Not really.

As to PDF catalogs, I would much, much use a well executed html (or Flash file for that matter) catalog than a clunky PDF file.

ShagRock
11-05-2009, 01:00 AM
Well, I just updated my Adobe and that helped..I opened that FAO document on fishing skiffs and moved around sections faster. I will take the tip from Shamus and upgrade my Ram memory..I need it for other things and got room for it. Since Ram is 'working memory' then it makes sense it should help with navigating through any format.

Kaa
11-05-2009, 01:03 AM
Strictly speaking, at least some of this stuff is not "proper" web content. For example you can put a Word doc on a server and it can be called by using the .doc extension. Does that make it web content? Not really.

Web content is information available through the web, in whatever format. Yes, that includes Word .doc files.

I have no clue where you are getting ideas that there is "proper" web content and "improper" web content.


As to PDF catalogs, I would much, much use a well executed html (or Flash file for that matter) catalog than a clunky PDF file.

That's your preference which is different from mine. For example, I would take a PDF file over Flash any day.

Also keep in mind that a lot of stuff in PDF format on the web exists because it's painless to throw an existing PDF file online and no one in interested enough (or can afford) to convert it to a "well-executed html". In such cases the alternative to PDF is nothing. I'll take the PDF.

Kaa

seanz
11-05-2009, 01:19 AM
I think Adobe Acrobat has gotten much better recently. It was truly awful a couple of years, bad enough that I started to use Foxit which works great!

I used Foxit for a couple of years until recently when I had to download Adobe Acrobat just to read some outboard service manuals (Foxit wouldn't work). That was when I found out Adobe Acrobat actually worked great. Do take care to be sure there's only one Adobe Acrobat version on your computer, though. Most times when people complained about Adobe Acrobat working badly, I almost always found more than one version... deleting all except the most recent tended to solve the problems...

Thankyou.
Adobe has been updated (this isn't my computer so I don't know if everything is as it should be but you'd think I'd know by now :rolleyes::D ) and now works much better. Took an hour anda half so it was worth asking first
Thanks Gary (WX), I'll keep that in mind for when I get my new 2ndhand computer.

Don't mind me folks I'll be on my way now............:)

pcford
11-05-2009, 01:21 AM
Web content is information available through the web, in whatever format. Yes, that includes Word .doc files.

I have no clue where you are getting ideas that there is "proper" web content and "improper" web content.


Hmmm. Do you know the difference between the WWW and the internet? I suppose you could say that a word doc is internet traffic....but it is hardly web content. Web content is not just anything, for gosh sakes...



That's your preference which is different from mine. For example, I would take a PDF file over Flash any day.

Also keep in mind that a lot of stuff in PDF format on the web exists because it's painless to throw an existing PDF file online and no one in interested enough (or can afford) to convert it to a "well-executed html". In such cases the alternative to PDF is nothing. I'll take the PDF.

Kaa

If a company does not care enough about their prospective customers to do better than slap-dash online PDFs, I don't want anything to do with them.

In general, I think one would have to say that Flash seems to be much better these days than a few years ago....but I am not a big fan. Sometimes there are instances when it is really useful.

Kaa
11-05-2009, 01:36 AM
Hmmm. Do you know the difference between the WWW and the internet?

Why, yes, I do :D

The WWW is a system of hypertext documents, mostly HTML files.

The internet is a computer network.


I suppose you could say that a word doc is internet traffic....but it is hardly web content. Web content is not just anything, for gosh sakes...

We can argue the fine nuances of definitions, but I really don't see the point. If you find it convenient to think that the web has "proper" and "improper" (in a non-porn way :D) content, that's fine by me. I find the distinction useless, but if you like it...


If a company does not care enough about their prospective customers to do better than slap-dash online PDFs, I don't want anything to do with them.

<shrug> Sure. I'm not going to tell you what companies to deal with or not deal with.

You're perfectly free to ignore all PDF files on the 'net if you want to. I find them very useful, but if you don't you can hate them all you want :-)

Kaa

Kaa
11-05-2009, 01:48 AM
Another good point about PDFs, no one has figured out how to embed a virus in one.

That happens to be not true.

E.g. http://oit.ncsu.edu/news-releases/virus-spreading-pdf

Kaa

pcford
11-05-2009, 01:49 AM
You're perfectly free to ignore all PDF files on the 'net if you want to. I find them very useful, but if you don't you can hate them all you want :-)

Kaa

I shut down my boatshop and jumped on the .com bandwagon in 2000. (Timing is everything.) After I lost my job...along with about 20,000 people in Seattle...I spent a couple years on my own, learning that making websites for mom and pop businesses is an even more poorly paid enterprise than boat restoration.

But because of this experience...I know a little bit about web work and I dislike sloppy work in the medium.

Disliking PDF files is hardly a crank's opinion. They are considered by many to be poor form indeed.

tomlarkin
11-05-2009, 02:28 AM
I think we're actually starting to agree on this:

Adobe Acrobat used to suck. It's not quite as bad anymore.
Installing it correctly and having enough RAM helps.
The non-standard UI and navigation makes it a poor choice for many, if not most, uses on the web.
It's a valuable tool if used for things it's good at.

WX
11-05-2009, 04:23 AM
Don't mind me folks I'll be on my way now............:)Two blokes sitting at a bus stop, looking at a Pedestrian crossing. One of the blokes says, I wonder why they chose black and white?
The other says, They didn't.

seanz
11-05-2009, 04:34 AM
For when they've got it all sorted out.......
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2375604#post2375604

:D


Amazing (to me) that in one shot Redwing looks so much like my little Hartley. :)
I'll check the thread out properly the next time I'm at the Library (they have broadband and my council rates are paying for it), worth the trip for build threads like Lucky Luke's schooner, JohnB's cruises, The Mighty Pippin and Redwing and many more.
:)