hollow shaft double paddle

[davebrown]

fellers: anyone have any plans for a hollow shaft double canoe paddle? i am looking to do an 8'6" for my sassafras 12 build. i might do an 8' first and see if it is adequate. i will have to scarf (i have a stunning piece of 2x2 old growth spruce), so i could try the length of 8' first. but i digress. i want to try the four-sided hollow if possible. anyone have any comments or dimensions? recommendations?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I've used hollow shafted kayak paddles by Mark Gees and Azzali, and frankly not really worth the bother.

As to shape and section size - its largely a matter of personal preference. If I didn't know what loom shape I wanted, then I'd make a couple in solid first to get the feel for what shape best suited me.

The usual approach involved laminating each half and then scarfing - but if you are using a feathered blade then you have to cut the two halves of the scarf separately - pays to have a nice reliable jig.

[George Roberts]

My usual comment is that a hollow shaft paddle should never be relied on.

But I prefer to use 8 sided covered in a fiberglass sleeve.

[Brian Palmer]

I'll agree with George.

I made a double paddle from spruce for a canoe the same size as the Sassafras, and I predict that the small (very small) weight reduction from hollowing the shaft is not worth the extra trouble.

If you feel the need to reduce the paddle weight, try to reduce it in the blades by making them as thin as possible. The blade weight goes up and down, fore and aft much more than the shaft weight.

Brian

[davebrown]

detail on usage: this paddle will be used on a 12 ft. half decked canoe, the clc sassafras 12. it will likely never see anything resembling whitewater. i say that because its application will be much more on the register of lake canoe than whitewater kayak. that might make a difference as to whether or not i go to the trouble of building a hollow shaft. the comment about not relying ona hollow shaft: is that coming from rough water usage, or any usage in general?

[davebrown]

looks like we have three nays and no ayes.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

looks like we have three nays and no ayes.

<accent ON mode="Glaswegian">Hi, wait a minute</accent>

I'm not saying "No" - just that I don't really think it's worth the effort.

If our man wants to build a set for his own enjoyment - then go for it - nothing wrong with that.

There are a variety of well enough understood approaches:
Two stave
Four stave
Birdsmouth
Tubular wrapped quarter cut spruce as patented by McGruers

Mark used to do hollow veneer blades, but I've not seen a set in twenty some years.....

[Steve Lansdowne]

If you use good spruce, you won't need a hollow shaft. I suppose if your wood is heavier, you might get some benefit in paddle weight that would give you an overall weight you'd like. PM me and I'll give you an email address for Kurt Maurer, who has built some very nice hollow shaft paddles.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I have a several old Folbot paddles that are 9' long but they were for a boat 36" in wide. I paddle a pirogue that is 30" wide with a paddle that is 7'6" and it' works great.
An extremely long paddle may not be to your benefit. A 12' boat is never going to be fast and it will yaw conciderably so an extra long paddle is not likely to give you an extra turn of speed. In fact the torque reaction with it may make the boat yaw more if you start pulling hard.

[davebrown]

steve--i can't figure out the damn pm thing. i think i might have a letter or two from you in the recent past, so i will search my email.

chuck, i had the idea that an 8'6" might allow less side-to-side reaching from the canoe itself, and thus be a little more stable. plus, i have read in several places that the double paddle canoe is best used with a padde of that lengthe. i am sure i have read that from someone quoting herreshoff, but i spend so much time reading boat books i couldn't possibly put my paws on the quote...i think i will start with the 8 ft and then scarf a 6" piece at center if it seems short. i have my scarfs finished and wired the first four of ten planks last night. my wife is unboxing hers tonight or tomorrow.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I used to own a couple of Beran sprint racing paddles with hollow shafts. The shafts were cedar with a spruce strip down the center and a long scarf at the middle. Blades were laminated mahogany veneer. They weren't made for bashing on rocks, but a good racer puts a considerable amount of strain on the shaft and they seemed perfectly adequate. For touring, I can't imagine the small weight savings being much of a big deal, or maybe even worth the trouble, but hollow shafts can obviously work fine.

[jonboy]

I once bought at a boat jumble a double paddle with the blades offset maybe only 30 or 40 º perhaps 6.5ft long, ...never measured it, though it was a tad taller than me.......Dark varnish , very light and when I started to repair the blade to shaft joint one end it was bamboo, or some kind of cane anyway, all the knuckles planed smooth, a bit too flexible for my liking but for a day camper 17ft -er it was fine... maybe the way to go....? I'd guess it was a homemade number but it impressed me nonetheless...

[Chris Ostlind]

The weight does matter. In the ends, in the middle... everywhere. The paddle is not fixed to a structural element in the middle. That means it has to be held up and away from the body and that weight matters over a day of paddling.

Consider, for a moment, the type of paddles used by virtually all racing competitors (sprint or endurance) who use the double blade unit; A carbon tube with carbon wing blades at each end. If a solid shaft were more efficient, even in the middle, these guys would be the first ones to make use of it.

A good paddler is not simply rotating the paddle about a central fixed point. The paddle swings from side to side with arm and torso rotation. Every ounce you remove from the paddle, is amplified by the hundreds of strokes one would take on a day long outing.

That's the data driven argument.

The aesthetic and perhaps practical, argument is that the wood is warmer and with the right selection of materials, can be decently light, as well as functional. It also fits the forum better... ;-)

[Tom Hoffman]

If you want to make one just for the heck of it. I have the plans and pictures to make Hollow Core Octagonal Birds Mouth Spoon Blade Oars. I am sure you can modify it to make what you want after you understand the building technique. I made two sets of Oars for less than $30. for both.

If you would like the plans and pictures, email me direct.

Tom...

[akitchen]

I built a hollow shafted double paddle for my Oughtred MacGregor
last year. It has seen two seasons of use so far, and I am very happy
with its lightness and feel. My wife is always stealing it for
her double paddle canoe (a CLC Mill Creek, built a couple of years ago).
Of course that endorsement isn't quite fair, as I carved the one for
her boat out of solid hard maple (strong but heavy - good for pushing
yourself off rocks). As I remember, the maple paddle is close to 3 lbs,
whereas the hollow one comes in at less than half that.

The construction is birdsmouth out of douglas fir (DF is on the heavy
side but it is strong, so you can keep the walls pretty thin). The
spoonblades are laminated out of thin sheets of mahogany that were
soaked in hot water and then clamped over a carved form until dry (to
produce the spoon). After the laminations were glued together I
fiberglassed the back of each blade for extra strength.

If you are interested in details: weight, wall thickness, lamination
thickness, etc., I can give you that info (I just have to get them
out and look at them to jog my memory).

[meuritt]

Enlighten me please, why on earth would one need an 8.5' paddle on a canoe with a 28" beam?

Point of reference. I am a kayaker, I paddle them with paddles just over 7' for the Euro style to just under 8 for the Greenland, my kayaks range in beam from 24" to 30". Too long of paddles cause me a lot of trouble with technique, especially the exit, the paddle causes drag because it has stayed too long in the water. The drag pulls the boat to the side, in effect, becoming a stern rudder stroke. Drag also slows you.

Is paddling a canoe that much different? Pictures on CLC's page shows kneeling paddlers which would seem to me to indicate shorter, not longer paddle since you would be able to keep the blade closer to the boat. But then, I've never paddled anything on my knees, ouch.

Shorter will tend to be lighter, will concentrate the mass into an easier to handle shape, and when the wind kicks up, will not be catching so much air.

Mike
San Rafael

[Todd Bradshaw]

Mike, I think it's mostly a matter of gunwale height. Most seasoned kayakers find that the gunwale height on a double-paddled canoe is really a pain in the butt and pretty inefficient compared to their kayaks. The longer paddles allow the blades to reach the water, even though the shaft is at a shallower angle to clear the gunwales. I'm not dissing double-paddle canoes, but if you're used to a good kayak, the whole paddling motion as you work up above the gunwales usually seems pretty awkward.

[davebrown]

i hadn't checked this for a couple of days. todd, as always, says this better than i can, but i think on the decked canoes, with their shear higher off the water, one can reach down and minimize the side-to-side rocking that one experiences with a shorter paddle. if akitchen can give me wall thickness, i will do it on the four sided hollow shaft, simply because i don't feel like fooling with birdsmouth right now. i do think birdsmouth is superior. tom hoffman, i was speculating about the hollow mast for my melonseed skiff and you sent me that articled, which i am grateful for and was very informative.

[akitchen]

Dave,

Here are the vital statistics on my paddle:

Shaft - hollow bird's mouth, douglas fir, diam 1 1/4", walls 3/16".
Blades - two thin laminations of mahogany, the back fiberglassed,
total thickness 3/16".
Ferrule - carbon fiber (I was trying for lightness at all costs, and cost
it certainly did :-( )
Weight - 2 lbs (not as light as I remembered :-) )
Length - 8 ft 2 in

The rule of thumb that I got from an article in WB on bird's mouth
construction some years back was: wall thickness 20% of overall
diameter,say, for spruce, but that this could be reduced to 10%
if DF was used. I compromised with 15%.

Here are a couple of images:

http://www.cs.rit.edu/~atk/Paddle1.jpg (http://www.cs.rit.edu/%7Eatk/Paddle1.jpg)

http://www.cs.rit.edu/~atk/Paddle2.jpg (http://www.cs.rit.edu/%7Eatk/Paddle2.jpg)


Andrew