Designs for trailerable semi-offshore capable sloop

[john guzzwell]

I have been following wayne's request for information but would like a modern fast trailerable sailboat that is a bit bigger and could safely cruise the Sea of Cortez/ Mexican coast and the Caribbean. Say between 25 and 28 feet long with a maximum weight of 4000 pounds. Parameters(other than being out of wood),include
A modern sloop or cutter rig.
Either a lifting daggerboard bulb keel or a heavy ballasted centerboard that can be locked down.
An outboard well ahead of a transom hung rudder.
Four berths, galley, small head.
Positive stability to at least 120 degrees
The DIXDESIGN didi 26 is close as is the JOKER ply trailerable out of New Zealand. Any other choices or ideas out there? Lastly any comments on the pro and con of a daggerboard keel versus a centerboard? Thanks John Guzzwell Jr.

[rbgarr]

Jay Paris designed PETREL, a trailerable 32' water ballasted centerboard cutter with the accommodations you listed but displacing about 7500 lbs. There were articles about her in the December '92 issue of Downeast Magazine and April/May '92 issue of Maine Boats and Harbors Magazine. The first article has a picture under sail, while the second shows lines and layout.

One of them was for sale on eBay not too long ago, offered for sale by an organization to which she had been donated somewhere in New England. No bids reached the reserve price so presumably she's still for sale.

Jay might be contacted through SAIL Magazine, for whom he writes and acts as a design contest judge from time to time.

[ 11-08-2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Hwyl]

Wow. John we are humbled by your request. My first inclination is an enlarged "Trekka" (you may know the boat, your father owned it) with a transom hung rudder.

There is a British design called the Blue Lightning (comes in a few sizes) that would fit the bill, the designer used to design Merlin Rockets and the like. The website seems to be down. I'll post it anyway, maybe someone else can update it. www.bluelightning.co.uk (http://www.bluelightning.co.uk)

Cheers Gareth

[Tom Lathrop]

John,

Having read the exploits of Trekka long ago I felt the need to get in a comment. Dix's designs always impress me.

I have a fair amount of experience with a drop daggerboard and swing keels and can say that their performance is better than a keel/centerboard but their manners in other respects are inferior.

Especially the daggerboard has faults on a cruising boat. Hitting things can lead to nasty consequences (been there done that) and cranking the thing up is a labor. It also stalls quicker than the others. Once in a particularly strong gust on a 26 footer, my daggerboard stalled and the boat did a jibe while hard on the wind. That can ruin your day. :(

Both the cable and pivot pin of the swing keel must be well maintained for safety, especially in salt water. Both trunk and keel must be well fitted to prevent banging around in rough seas.

For cruising, I'd prefer the safety and shoal draft of the shallow fixed keel along with the added performance of the enclosed centerboard.

[Meerkat]

What is the difference between a swing keel and a centerboard?

WRT stalling daggerboards, isn't that largely a function of aspect ratio and applies to any keel or c/b? I know it does for airplane wings. The higher the aspect ratio, the more abrupt and vicious the stall.

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
What is the difference between a swing keel and a centerboard?

Centreboard has no ballast

[pippo]

Check the Delft 25: it's heavier than your specified maximum weight, but it's a very nice and modern boat:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Stockplans.htm

The Vagabond 23 by Jacques Mertens is worth a look also, even it's a bit short:

http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/VG23_study.htm

My impression is that your specified light displacement figure is a bit too light with respect to the desired boat size...

[john guzzwell]

Thank you for the responses. My thoughts were along the lines of an enlarged Trekka as well but without the fixed keel. I built a replica of my dads one, (with a sloop rig), twenty years ago (we all get older), the fellow I sold it to rolled it three times in a hurricane in the south pacific and kept right on going to Australia. I don't see why a trailerable offshore boat can not be built, but at present there isn't much out there except sport boats without accomadation or heavy fixed keel designs that require a large tow vehicle. I like the idea of reverse sheer to gain extra room in the center of the boat and yet keep the windage down, it also helps with righting moment from extreme angles of heel. As previously mentioned, an inboard well allows the outboard to work even when rough and a sugar scoop on either side of a transom hung kick up rudder is nice for swimming off of. When I was in london eight years ago I saw a swing keel with a bulb on a sport boat (I think a rodgers 27), if you could lock it in place this might be the solution to offshore performance and shoal draft capability (hitting things) when the pins are out. I don't have any drawings or photos of this however. Keith offered to draw up an eight meter road legal version of his Blue Lightning design for a modest fee, this might be the ticket. The Dix didi 26 design is nice but by the time I change everything I may as well start afresh. I will keep you posted on what I come up with. John Guzzwell Jr.

[Meerkat]

I recall in "Trekka Around the World" that at the end, serveral points were made about things that would have been better: a cutter rig for more sail management, windvane steering, standing headroom and sleeping separate from a sitting area so guests chould be accomodated.

FWIW, John Welsford has drawn up a 26' trailerable double ended c/b sailboat for forumite Barrett Faneuf and she is in the process of (pre?)construction. I do not know if it's considered or intended to be offshore capable or not.

If you're interested, you can contact John Welsford via his website: http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/index.html

Last time I was there, there was nothing posted on this design, so you'll have to email him.

[Tom Lathrop]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
What is the difference between a swing keel and a centerboard?

WRT stalling daggerboards, isn't that largely a function of aspect ratio and applies to any keel or c/b? I know it does for airplane wings. The higher the aspect ratio, the more abrupt and vicious the stall.With a swing keel, all or most of the ballast is in the swing keel. With a centerboard, there may be no ballast in the centerboard or just enough to make sure it goes down when released. Typical swing keels: Catalina 22 and 25. Typical centerboards: Morgan 22 and Bristol 35.5

Yes and no. The typical drop keel daggerboard is high aspect ratio with a straight vertical leading edge and mine often suffered partial stall and complete catastrophic stall in that one instance. My S2 7.9M Grand Slam hull itself offers no directional stability. Stall in a keel with a swept back leading edge, typical of both swing keels and fixed keels, is more gradual and not as sudden as the straight leading edge kind. Most of the very high aspect ratio straight keels have a bulb or some other kind of tip plate to retard stalling.

[john guzzwell]

My last boat was a heavily modified 4750 pound Haida 26 fin keeler that I sailed in mexico and canada so I do not have any experience with retractable keels. In terms of upwind sailing performance, structural strength (plus building it), and the practicality of usage (both offshore and in shallow waters), I would like some more advice as to a swing keel versus a daggerboard one. This boat will be just for coastal cruising but it does get rough in the Sea of Cortez and the trip from Cabo San Lucas back to San Diego would have been a bit dicey in anything smaller or less seaworthy. While the whole point of going for a trailerable is to avoid the unpleasant parts, I still want something that I have complete confidence in and that will sail really well - a cruising capable modified express 27 is what comes to mind. Some of the other designs that have been suggested look very interesting and I will check them out. Certainly if I was spending most of the time in shallow protected waters (and if I did not want to surf downwind), the advice for a full keel with a centerboard would probably be the way to go. John Guzzwell Jr.

[Hwyl]

Dick Newick designs his daggerboard boxes with a compression zone behind them. It's actually insulation foam and enough room for the board to pivot. It's a compromise, less space than a centreboard case, some of the grounding ability of a centreboard. Of course Dick eschews ballast and weight. It should work with a drop keel though.

[buildergirl]

I have no ideas to add to your questing for plans, but I just wanted to throw in the off-topic comment that I got to do a restoration/ beautification of Trekka 2ish years ago so that she could go on display in Victoria BC. I had a lot of fun when I was down below imagining long hours at sea. It looked more like a spaceship or a submarine to me when I first saw it, but we developed an understanding by the end of it. I got lots of good ideas for things I want to include when I rethink the interior of the old gaff yawl I'm restoring.
Anyhow, it was fun to see a mention of her. All the best on finding a good design!

[Meerkat]

I don't know if they still do, but Hinkley & Co. used to make a snazzy swing keel yatchit. I think it was 44' LOA and had a 5' board up draft and an 11' board down draft ( ;) ). Hydraulic lift. Made regular Atlantic crossings. Boucoup bux of course (if you have to ask...). Point being that there are such things as blue water c/b and swing keel boats.

I looked and the 26' x 8' double-ender c/b boat that John Welsford is designing for Barrett Faneuf is intended for blue water.

[PVanderwaart]

Dick Zaal's site says his Star Buck design is available in a centerboard version. I don't see the displacement, but the LOA is in the ballpark.

http://www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl/

[ 11-11-2004, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: PVanderwaart ]

[johnw]

Swing keels cab be tricky. Jensen Marine stopped building them after a Cal 21 was found floating upside down in Puget Sound with the keel retracted and the crew missing. Seems likely they were sailing down wind with the keel up when they capsized. Or they capsized and the keel retracted, preventing the boat from righting. Maybe one that doesn't retract all the way, like Bob Derecktor's 'Salty Goose' would be more seaworthy. Or a keel/centerboard boat shallow enough to trailer. A broad, shallow hull like the Cal 21 isnt' as self-righting as a deep, narrow hull would be, so the safer boat would go against current design practice for most trailer boats. On the other hand, I once saw a Thundebird on a trailer at a rest stop in Oregon, so maybe you should think about the design of the trailer instead of the design of the boat.

[Meerkat]

If I had the money, this discussion would be moot for me: I know what I'd buy in a heartbeat!

http://www.samlmorse.com/Sailing1-2.jpg

http://www.samlmorse.com/fc.jpg

Sam L. Morse & Co. "Falmouth 22"

Designer: Lyle C. Hess
Length, Overall 30'6"
Length on Deck 22' 0"
Length, Waterline 20' 10"
Beam 8' 0"
Draft 3' 6"
Displacement 7,400 lbs.
Ballast, Solid Lead 2,500 lbs.
Total Sail Area 403 sq.ft.
Headroom 5' 11"
Optional Height 6' 6"
Auxiliary ...Yanmar 1 cyl. 9 hp.

[JimD]

The Falmouth 22 has always been one of my favourites, too. Sam Morse sells the FG versions for close to $120K, I think.

Also, I doubt if there's any strict distinction between a swing keel and a centerboard. My centerboard is solid steel, and Glen-L still calls it a CB, not an SK.

[Quilbilly]

I designed and built my version of said boat depending on one's defination of semi-offshore is. It is 27ft, about 4000lbs with a four foot 1800lb daggerboard. It draws 2 feet with the board up and six down. It has a raised deck and pilot house and as such has more windage than is ideal but it is very spacious as a result. I plan on sailing the Inside Passage being careful of the long hops such as from the North end of Vancouver Island to the mainland. I too gave a lot of thought to the daggerboard vs centerboard concept. I settled on the daggerboard because of its superior sailing characteristics. I was concerned about grounding but the deciding factor was that fin keel boats run agound all the time and rarely tear the bottom out as a result. The daggerboard case is very strong and this makes the daggerboard/ keel connection stronger than hanging a fin off the bottom and only having the floor timber structure to carry the load. I have to say I tested it by fire the first season running aground more times in one trip than I had in twenty five years of sailing before. One thing I didn't consider is that the daggerboard is bullet proof when all the way down and out of danger when completely retracted but part way up it was vulnerable. I never thought of that contingency when I designed it and the upper part of the case wasn't as strong as the lower intentially to save weight. I have since reeinforced it. The daggerboard is heavy so I rarely lift it and would never sail it in the raised position. It locks down. I am thinking about replacing it with a lighter fin with a bulb on the end for the same righting moment, but I am feeling pretty lazy and good enough is just that. Checkout my limited website if you like. Todd Miller
http://www.olympus.net/personal/viviannk/

[Venchka]

I plan on sailing the Inside Passage being careful of the long hops such as from the North end of Vancouver Island to the mainland. Not to worry. Folks in kayaks, dories, Whitehalls and West Wight Potters have made that part of the trip without incident.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Frank E. Price]

And people have gone over Niagara Falls in barrels.

[bainbridgeisland]

You mentioned an Express 27 type boat. Carl Schumacher, the designer of the Express 27, also designed a 30' version with a weighted daggerboard for the same conditions. i.e. offshore, west coast, few harbors, big waves, lots of wind. Talking to Carl about the 30 footer years ago, he felt it was absolutely as safe as a fixed keel boat of the same weight and size. The daggerboard trunk is strongly made and the boat has good stability for its type.

As I see it, the weighted daggerboard is the option that has the most benefits. You do not need shallow draft offshore. You probably need about 1,200 pounds of payload capacity to cruise comfortably. This leaves 2,800 pounds of boat, rig, engine and so forth. This is about about 1,000 pounds for ballast assuming you keep the rest of the boat at 1,800 pounds. Light but do-able. With 5 foot draft or so, moderate beam and reasonably lightweight rig, you would probably have positive stability to 140 degrees or more. A needed offshore attribute.

A boat of this type could cross to Hawaii in a pinch with experienced crew but would be best closer to harbor. It could go upwind in the open Pacific in a 45-50 knots blow with the right sails and experienced sailors.

The daggerboard trunk is a nuisance inside the boat. A standard interior arrangement will not fit very well. However, other, very reasonable arrangements can accommodate the trunk.

I noted you plan for an OB well ahead of the rudder. I have designed a number of boats with this feature with mixed results. First, it is slower when sailing due to drag of the prop and the well. A flush fairing piece can be fitted around the bottom of the well that allows the lower unit to extend below. This reduces drag significantly. But the propeller and lower unit still have very significant drag. A transom mounted motor can be tilted up when sailing, eliminating hydrodynamic drag. This is especially important on a lightweight boat because the drag from the prop and the well is a high proportion of overall drag. This drag will keep you from pointing as high. It will keep you from clawing off a lee shore in extreme conditions.

Some folks worry about wetting the power head in extreme conditions on transom mounted outboards. I did have this problem once on a traditional cods head and mackerel tail boat. I have not found it to be true of boats with fuller transoms.

[john guzzwell]

Thanks for the information. I was not aware of the above design although I have heard of a development of the express 27 which was a custom built 28 footer, with a daggerboard lifting bulb keel, that Mr Schumacher did just before he died (out of carbon fiber). Unfortunately the owner stated that while it was very fast on a reach, he was not impressed with its upwind performance. The next time I am in San Francisco I am going to take a look at it and will see if I can find some drawings of both designs. Since I want a fast trailerable coastal cruising boat (rather than a racing boat), I wonder if the lines should be modified to take into account several factors.
a)Making the bow slightly fuller because I would be sailing it without the benifit of four crew as ballast to sit on the transom when going downwind in rough conditions. (The Express 27 class web site has some great photos).
b)Making the hull slightly deeper for added displacement as being out of wood instead of foam cored glass, and having a larger cabin, would make the structure weight 300 to 500 pounds heavier. Of course this is offet by having a bulb keel with a lower center of gravity than a standard fin (as on the 27 footer), and less crew. The Dudley Dix Didi 26 design is close to what I want and has been built in numerous modified and stretched forms wordwide, so that is another option. Before I start this project I will go out for a sail on all of the above as well as consider what another member suggested about getting a bigger trailer and truck to just haul something with a fixed keel, although I would prefer being able to launch off a ramp. Regarding the outboard I was thinking of having it tilt up with a plate to cover the hole in the bottom of the boat when not in use. When I brought my 4750 pound Hydia 26 back to San Diego from Cabo San Lucas, the inboard mounted OB really helped with some of the upwind work when it was rough. Any comments on this and driving long distance with a trailerable? - ie is it better to have the boat low to the ground for less windage or up high so you can see around it? John Guzzwell Jr.

[bainbridgeisland]

I do not know of the 28 footer by Carl you are talking about. The 30 footer was called a Sonoma 30. It was about the same proportions as an Olson 30 and was almost exactly the same speed.

Boats of this proportion can sail very well short handed if the sails are small and flat. They have higher proportion of ballast than typical cruising boats and a lot of form stability for their weight. The large rigs that are needed for racing are only an advantage for light-air cruising.

The balance between fullness forward and aft in a lightweight sailboat is very subtle. I wouldn't change it on the Express 27 hull for cruising. The fineness forward is balanced very well with the fullness aft. The boat does not trim bow-down as they heel. They sail downwind without burying their bows. They are sometimes wet but this is due to speed as they are able to sustain 11 or 12 knots at times with spurts a little higher. Any 27 foot, 3,000 pound boat going that fast will be wet. If you reduce sail until speed is in the 6 to 8 knot range they are very dry boats.

I am not really trying to 'sell' you on an Express 27; though I think they are one of Carl's best designs. Though a rival designer, I have sailed more than 1,000 miles on them. Carl did a great job with that commission and the Alsberg brothers did a good job building them.

You will find that a well designed sailboat of modern timber construction will weigh the same or less than cored polyester fiberglass construction. You will not need to add displacement to allow for timber construction unless the boat is poorly designed, overbuilt or uses a construction method of low efficiency.

I would agree you need a bigger cabin house.

To ramp launch or not depends on where you want to sail. Launching hoists are available in Puget Sound, Portland, the San Francisco Bay area, Lake Tahoe and south of Point Conception. Elsewhere you will find it easier to ramp launch.

I believe it is generally a mistake to power a lightweight sailboat up wind in a strong breeze. I realize I am in the minority. However, these boats are so highly tuned to sail that the engine is inferior propulsion. It is not as powerful. You might get upwind slightly faster under sail with the engine running but at what cost? I think the difference between an outboard on the transom and one just forward of the transom is negligible when under power but significant when under sail. I would therefore recommend transom mounting if performance under sail is required.

Visibility is much better with a fin keeler than a boat low on the trailer. However, even with a very good trailer, a truck passing by can really shake up the vehicle with a fin keeler in tow. The windage is higher for the fin keeler, so you will use more fuel to tow. Finally, you can easily end up with the top of the bow pulpit 11' above the road with the fin keeler and must be careful with over head obstructions. I would vote for the weighted daggerboard.

[Chris Krumm]

David Payne has a 7.6 m trailerable boat with a daggerboard with bulb that is along the lines of the Dix 26. Check out http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery?KID=38. The v-berth looks pretty pinched near the stem, and I can't imagine the double berth under the cockpit sole would be so great, but it's a little more of a traditional layout than the Dix 26 while still having a private head compartment.

Has anyone seen a Dix 26 under build or sailed on one? It looks like a great boat, but I'm curious how that saloon-cum-berth in the bow really works. I've not seen any finished interior pics, but it seems like the interior would feel pretty chopped up and a bit claustrophic forward. 1000 kg dry weight @ 26' though, a very reasonable trailer load...

Finally, what do you think about the Kavalier 800 at http://www.boatdesign.net/nyd/K800/? It has a ballasted stub keel with centerboard, but could you se a daggerboard trunkabaft the mast step, closing off one end of the L-shaped dinette/berth? Any thoughts on the full width cabin with lifelines vs. side decks? Like the plumb stem, but cant say I like the bluff bow they end up with - would kind of like to extend the waterlines forward to intersect the waterline and see what the stem profile would look like.

Chris Krumm

[john guzzwell]

Thank you for your comments. I have built several cold molded boats before including a replica of my fathers Trekka, but the schumacher 28 was out of carbon, hence the guess that a wood duplicate would be a bit heavier( As well as far cheaper). I knew about the design as I worked for Schooner Creek (who did the hull and deck)in portland for two years while building a couple of 52'ers. Being somewhat conservative I figured I would wait and see how it (and the Didi 26), turned out before I started my own project. Nursing school and building my own home in Portland have also slowed me down. Several didi 26's are sailing abroad, but I do not know if any are finished in this country or not. For the gentleman from bainbridge island I ask, are there any other designs you like as much as the Express 27 for the purposes I have described? While I have done a fair bit of sailing, most of it has been on heavier and bigger boats which currently are outside my financial and time budget. I have a small backyard as well! Re Mr Paine's 7.6 meter design and the Kavalier 800, they are interesting but are any sailing and have the bugs been worked out? I no intention to do so, but I like the fact that someone else has sailed the Express 27 to Hawaii.

[bainbridgeisland]

One boat that comes to mind immediately is from my old Boss Tom Wylie. He has a stock plan design 25' sloop. I think it meets all your design requirements that I know of except for draft. The original boat is fixed keel, but it wouldn't surprise me if Tom hasn't done a bulb daggerboard version.

The interior arrangement would work well with the daggerboard trunk. The boat has the head and stowage forward; Opposing settee berths next; Galley to port and starboard next to the hatch; Double berth under the cockpit to starboard; Lazarette locker to port. A daggerboard trunk would fit between the forward ends of the settee berths and still leave a usable cabin. You could seat 8 inside the cabin though it would be tight.

Displacement is 2500 pounds. Ballast is 1008 pounds. Construction is plywood deck and house, plywood topsides and cold molded bottom.

I know at least one of these boats has been built. I heard it sailed very well. Also I know Tom has designed a number of similar boats. Compared to most boats, non of them have any vices. Though moderatly canvased, they are fast in all conditions, easily driven and comfortable at sea.

Today Tom is noted for his large boats (You may have seen 'Rage' or others at Schooner Creek). This was a conscious decision he made years ago to make his business profitable. However, he has designed a number of famous small boats like American Express, the mini-transit winner, the Wylie Wabbit and so forth. I think you can reach him at Thomas Wylie Thomas Wylie Design Group, PO BOX 86 Canyon, CA 94516 Ph: 925-376-7338

I will try to think of some other boats too.