I confess

[McB]

I confess. I am a Midwestern practical person. I have a van for the family. I buy cars with 100000 miles because I cannot justify buying anything that depreciates as fast as a new car. I live next to Sturgis, where West Coast Choppers and Ducati crotch rockets reign, yet I drive a plain ordinary Honda street bike. (because it gets 65mpg).
Yet when it comes to my love for sail boats all that goes out the window. I want what is not practical, not logical, not feasible, but I want it. This was never to much of a problem because in the past this dream was also NOT POSSIBLE. Now I find myself with the time, location, ability, and resources to build what I want. Not what I need, or would use, but WHAT I WANT!.

So this is it. I love Crowninshield’s Schooner FAME, Too big! I love the gaff cutter Kelpie. Too deep. I need to trailer, but I live in a place where 35’ is common for hauling cattle & horses. In need a draft under 3‘.. I want narrow, sleek look. After all I will spend as much time admiring it as sailing it. And I want it to turn heads, Every head. I want Bill Gates to try to buy it from me so I can turn him down.

A gaff cutter, with topsail. I want strings to pull and play with. I want to sail not sit on a boat. I want to sail alone and work my but off, or have my family along for a fun and exhilarating ride. I don’t care about accommodations. She needs to move well in little breeze. And stand up under a good blow. I know these are all compromises, but I don’t want to compromise!

I have never started a project that I have not finished. I also think there are others of you out there that are “in the same boat as me”.
Am I craze? Have years of practicality finally snapped me? CAN THIS BE DONE?

26” LOD wine glass, topsail cutter, 2’6” draft with drop down keel 4-6’????????

Confession is good for the soul. I feel better now, But I STILL WANT TO DO THIS!

[Torna]

I dunno whether it can be done or which design to recommend, but your enthusiasm certainly is motivational.
thanks for the lift,
-leif

[Keith Wilson]

How about the Iain Oughtred design Norm Messinger built, the Farne Islander? Prairie Islander's a wonderful boat, gaff cutter rig, very good-looking, trailerable this side of a Peterbuilt, relatively shallow draft, and you can build her in this lifetime. Norm's a practical Midwestern guy from Omaha, and he did it! No topsail, although I bet you could fix that. You're even near enough that you and Norm could go sailing together - God, TWO of those on the same Midwestern lake would make the Bayliner crowd just wither up and die of shame. :D Norm, are you here somewhere? Inspire this guy!

http://woodenboatworld.com/pictures/Wyoming01-712sml.jpg

[ 11-11-2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[John B]

Wine glass? sometimes refers to a transom but in the context of Kelpie can only mean the hull form at the mid point of the boat. So you won't be acheiving that in a 2'6" draught.

[Jim Budde]

Norm fitted Prarie Islander with a topsail this season .. if you are real nice, maybe he'l post pics ... she looks great with topsail up in light winds.

[Paul Silverman]

I'm the owner of a 25' gaff cutter- Kelpie- designed by Bill Garden and built in 1942. Is this the "Kelpie" you are referring to? She is an "extreme" cutter- 5 foot draft, 6 foot beam, 12 foot bowsprit, 9,000 lb displacement. I actually do trailer her occasionally, since I had a trailer built to transport her from Port Townsend to Flatheat Lake in Montana (near where I live). I'd be happy to discuss the trials, tribulations, and joys of using an impractical but wonderful boat....

[Bruce Hooke]

How about Wenda:

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/images/400093G.GIF

She's got looks to die for, as well as draft and displacement that should be in the trailerable range. She's maybe not quite what you are looking for (the cockpit is a bit small for a family and a topsail is not an option -- but she's got a mizzen) but she should at least provide encouragement that something that fits what you are after is out there.

In case you don't know the history -- the original Wenda was designed by Albert Strange, who IMOOP designed some of the most beautiful boats ever to grace the waves. However, the original plans were lost so Phil Bolger was brought in to redraw the plans based on the small scale versions of the original plans that were available. Mr. Bolger is a master designer in his own right but in this case he followed the original design as closely as possible, at least as far as look go. He did update the construction -- Strange was not anything special in that area.

WoodenBoat published an article about Wenda a few years ago...

[John B]

Paul, McB has been looking at a Fife called Kelpie. Its in the 'Fife' thread a few down from this one.

[McB]

Paul, In my post I was refering to the Fife "Kelpie" but yours sounds very interesting. I hope to spend some of my time each year sailing in your neck of the woods. Could you post some pictures? I would love to see your "Kelpie" Possibly before the snow fills the passes I could make a run up your way. my wife would love a break.

[McB]

Bruce,
I have long admired "Wenda". That one and a couple of Paul Gartside designs are the ones I will no doubt settle on if my dream boat is impossible. In WB #142 there is a great write-up about "Wenda", I'm sure your aware of. But in that same issue on page 64 there is an article on a Gustave Caillebotte, 30-square-meter called "LE LEZARD". That boat with a gaff cutter rig is my dream boat incarnate.

[Don Z.]

Why not a Friendship sloop? Right rig, elliptical instead of wineglass transom, but close enough. Chappelle shows one or two with a centerboard... The Friendship Sloop Society can lead you to plans for ones in the 30 foot range...

Just an idea. Also, The Dark Harbors are similar to Fame, but sloop vice schooner rigged. Want to really push the envelope? Combine the DH 17.5 with Fame, and get a schooner about 33 feet long. Not the perfect boat (small for a schooner to do well), but if it's what you want...

Edited to add:
Almost forgot about another small schooner. WoodenBoat issue number 101, page 36. A small schooner designed and built by Christian Dahl. I think it was about 28 feet overall? Something like that. It may be the ticket!

[ 11-11-2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Don Z. ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by McB:
Bruce,
I have long admired "Wenda". That one and a couple of Paul Gartside designs are the ones I will no doubt settle on if my dream boat is impossible. In WB #142 there is a great write-up about "Wenda", I'm sure your aware of. But in that same issue on page 64 there is an article on a Gustave Caillebotte, 30-square-meter called "LE LEZARD". That boat with a gaff cutter rig is my dream boat incarnate.OK, I get the picture. We're talking CLASSY! No simple Friendship sloop, quant and pretty as it might be, is going to cut it here. We're looking for a boat that looks like it's racing even when it's sitting at the moaring, a boat that could make the best of the great yachts of the 20's look meerly average. No design based on a workboat is going to cut it! That would be like Rockefeller driving a pickup truck! :D ;) :D

More power to you McB! I hope you can find the right boat. If all else fails, I doubt Wenda would disappoint you too much. But I get what you are saying...Wenda is like a beautiful Monet garden scene, elegant, even haunting, in a refined, simple way; but you don't want a garden scene you want all the lights and glitter and gold of Paris or Broadway.

[Venchka]

Paul Gartside for sure. If the two of you can't design exactly what you want, nobody can. You're close enough to soend enough time with Paul to get the boat perfect. He has 2 or 3 designs in the size range you're talking about that with a tweak here and a centerboard there and PRESTO! The 26' trailerable gaff cutter to die for! All of us will be green with envy. Some of us may buy the plans as well. You will be making the boating world a better place. Make a list. Check it twice and then call Paul.

Cheers!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[preston]

Classy...
Well, I guess one of the Dark Harbors would do it.

Preston

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Wenda
http://www.yachtbau.cz/klassiker/canoe_yawl/foto1.jpg

Whats that stick in the back with the sheet hanging off it ? ;)

[McB]

Paul,
I found a picture of your "Kelpie". I have know idea how to post it for others to lust over. What a great looking boat. Would love to see her some time.
Pat

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Bill Garden's Kelpie:

http://www.wholeboat.net/gboats/gallery/sail/images/Kelpie_2.jpg

http://www.wholeboat.net/gboats/gallery/sail/images/kelpie_1.jpg

Now that's a bowsprit!

Steven

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by preston:
Classy...
Well, I guess one of the Dark Harbors would do it.

PrestonI thought of them too, but they are rather deep draft for trailering...

[brian.cunningham]

How about a sharpie?

http://www.parker-marine.com/skimmerphotobig.jpg
http://www.parker-marine.com/25terrapinpage.html

or a Weekender?
http://www.stevproj.com/smsail2.JPG
http://www.stevproj.com/

[McB]

Paul Gartside's #93 sure looks good from the drawing on his web-page. It says that the original was designed (and I assume) built, for a customer in Italy. Has anyone ever seen a picture of this boat.

ps I plan to call Paul Friday about it.

[Venchka]

Gartside Design #93. 8' less than the 26' LOD you stated above. No worries. 7' beam-very road legal. Minimum draft suitable for a trailer. 1,100 pounds of ballast-most stable. Gaff topsail cutter rig with ample canvas-does it get any better? Lust factor-over the top from where I sit. I can picture this boat on Lake Yellowstone, Flathead Lake, all those big lakes in B.C. and of course the islands of Puget Sound and B.C.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/italycopy.JPG

Smaller than you asked for, but very nice! You might be the first kid on the block to build one!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Paul Silverman]

Pat and Steven- I am amazed that you found the Kelpie photos! I haven't posted any as I am still trying to get a membership on ImageStation to make them available. Regarding the problem of draft, I haven't had much difficulty on Flathead Lake with 5"... just have to be careful of the shoals. The key problem with a boat like this is that because she is planked (cedar on oak)and has to be hauled out for most of the year in a very dry climate(sailing season runs only mid June to mid October), she shrinks remarkably and requires a good soaking, typically suspended in travel-lift slings before she floats. This year, I'm hauling her home to Missoula where I can keep sprinklers going under her and a humidifier running inside as soon as the spring weather allows. Doing that, of course, means finding something to pull the trailer and hauling down the mast- another hassle. I had the trailer built to bring her to Montana and now use it in lieu of jack stands. It is possible to launch her from the trailer using a towbar extension. I haven't yet tried to load her directly onto the trailer and have relied on a travel lift. I've had her out of saltwater and in Montana now for 3 years and am concerned about the additional wear and tear on her of drying out repeatedly and additional rot problems due to fresh water sailing. On the other hand, I am also replacing the old iron nail fastenings with silicon bronze and am able to do it slowly over a few seasons without having to worry about galvanic corrosion. Because boats like mine are so unusual in this area, Kelpie is quite a head-turner and conversation piece. One advantage of this is that many people keep an eye on her or are interested in helping out with one problem or another. I was incredibly fortunate in finding a real-life shipwright who happens to have moved to Flathead- Jon Deery (has restored and maintains the Questa and Nor'Easter, also on Flathead). He's helped me replace a couple of rotted planks and generally functions as my source of wisdom and hands-on tutor. If life and finances were perfect, I might have gotten a boat more like the one you are looking for- shallow draft, really trailerable, and perhaps lapstrake, strip-planked, or cold-molded. But I fell in love with Kelpie and could afford her and wouldn't trade her for anything else. Pat, if you do head out this way let me know- I'd be delighted to take you out on her.

[Paul Silverman]

I wasn't able to figure out how to insert photos into the forum itself, but do have a link to more photos of Kelpie- please let me know if this does not work.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2339175093&code=12930455&mode=invite&DCMP=isc-email-AlbumInvite

[Bruce Hooke]

Yup, it definitely works. Very pretty! Thanks.

[hikingchrs]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by preston:
Classy...
Well, I guess one of the Dark Harbors would do it.

PrestonI thought of them too, but they are rather deep draft for trailering...</font>[/QUOTE]I thought this was all about what was impractiable
my vote is for a Dark Harbour also Art Read's
is a most beutiful thing.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by hikingchrs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by preston:
Classy...
Well, I guess one of the Dark Harbors would do it.

PrestonI thought of them too, but they are rather deep draft for trailering...</font>[/QUOTE]I thought this was all about what was impractiable
my vote is for a Dark Harbour also Art Read's
is a most beutiful thing.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, I think maybe impractical but not to the point of unworkable. McB does say:

I need to trailer, but I live in a place where 35’ is common for hauling cattle & horses. In need a draft under 3‘.

[AngWood]

How about Joel White's centerboard (isn't it?) reiteration of the Herreshoff Fish class (Flatfish?). The Haven 121/2's big sister. Gorgeous, to my mind. I can't find stats or images online, but I think it's about right.

[preston]

Originally posted by AngWood:
How about Joel White's centerboard (isn't it?) reiteration of the Herreshoff Fish class (Flatfish?). The Haven 121/2's big sister. Gorgeous, to my mind. I can't find stats or images online, but I think it's about right.LOA - 20' 3"
LWL - 16' 1"
Beam - 7' 6"
Draft (cb up) - 2' 2"
(cb down) - 4' 3"
Displ. - 3,094 lbs.
Sail Area: Gaff - 268 sq. ft.

Preston

[Venchka]

Flatfish

http://www.chipboat.com/flatfish3.gif

Chip Flanagan (http://www.chipboat.com)

Board up draft is a bit much and not a gaff topsail cutter.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 11-12-2004, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[AngWood]

Dang. Too short, too. But gosh I like it. Build me one, wouldja?

[Keith Wilson]

OK, beauty above all. I can sympathize. About the only thing that would be as nice as a Wenda would be a Herreshoff Alerion - 26' x 7'-7" x 2'9" with the board up, 6000# displacement. Trailerable, if barely. Not a gaff cutter, though

http://www.dmcboats.com/osolomio1.jpg

Or, if you really want to go all out, a Buzzard's Bay 25. a somewhat larger verison of the same idea, and beautiful enough to make strong men fall on their knees weeping like babies:

http://www.gannonandbenjamin.com/projectimages/Don_varnishing_doors-sm.jpg

http://www.gannonandbenjamin.com/projectimages/Epiphany_ready_for_ramp-sm.jpg

[PVanderwaart]

http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/Pa020027.jpg

The size is a little smaller than you suggest, and it has workboat origins, but this craft got a lot of admiring attention at the Small Craft Fetsival at CBMM. I believe it's a Kingston Lobster Boat, lines from Chapelle.

The Dark Harbors and the Herreshoff boats (and Joel White copies) don't have topsails, as far as I know. Is that not a fatal flaw? And, is a bowsprit required?

The Gartside boat does looks sweet. I wonder, though, about the skinny topsails that he draws to match is hign-angle gaffs. (I'm sort of dubious about topsails anyway, so pay no attention.)

[NormMessinger]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d707b3127cceb70fd8c2894b0000003610
Prairie Islander with Top Sail smile.gif

Take a look at George Beuhler's smallest schooner designs. That'll give you enough strings to pull. I asked George about one of his designs a while back. He said, "What the hell do you want a boat like that in Nebraska?"

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Beautiful Norm, I'll take it.
How long for delivery :D

[mmd]

A Tancook fishing sloop
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid125/p64d0da4aa3fa93610ef0ffd008d2f07a/f8025496.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid125/p88b92bfd4578c39516c66a6bf3905170/f8025471.jpg

A Sable Island surf rescue skiff
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid125/p3fa3699fdeaafcb29906a07cdc9b6aca/f8025300.jpg

[Venchka]

Kingston Lobster Boat...

http://www.vexcel.ca/images/king02.jpg
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/8/3/5/6/8/83568_1.jpg
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/8/3/5/6/8/83568_2.jpg
http://www.arqueschl.org/projects/images/klb1_lg.jpg

Hmmmmm...looks like she can either be a sloop (cutter?) or schooner.

mmd-You know these things. Help us out.

Anyway you rig it, that's a boat!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 11-13-2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Waye that is just one sweet boat Droool

Joey LIKE :D :D :D

[Venchka]

Carfeful, Joe, she carries headsails. :rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Wayne Headsails are fine its that dam mast in the cockpit that I don't like ;) So whats the cabin look like ??? Hmmm Sporty I LIKE this boat :D Is that one for sale ? big $$$ no doubt?

[ 11-14-2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[McB]

mmd;
Are there plans availible for that Tancook Fishing Sloop?
I found the web-page, there are some other pictures.

Pat

[McB]

Michael;
I just found the building page from the Museum. I notice your picture of "Windkilde" was not on thier site. Did you take the picture? If so, how does she sail?
Pat

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by mmd:
A Tancook fishing sloopWhat a beatiful boat.
That's the most graceful looking shallow draft boat I've seen.

[NormMessinger]

So many beautiful boats, so little time.

Are we making your choice any easier, McB? smile.gif

[McB]

Norm;
Atleast this time the worst choice will still not be a bad one!

[Jay Greer]

Now if you really want a "skinny water" boat, check out "Meadow Lark" by L. Francis Herreshoff. No dingy needed as you can beach the boat. Draws 15 inches!
Trailers nice. 33' gaff schooner or ketch depending which mast is taller. Beam 8' 1 1/2". Plans are available from Mystic Seaport. The boat is featured in Sensible Cruising Designs by LFH.
Jay Greer

[hikingchrs]

Oh my eyes hurt from looking at all these fine boats!!!

[mmd]

Hmmmmm...looks like she can either be a sloop (cutter?) or schooner.

mmd-You know these things. Help us out. - Venchka
I'm not very familiar with the traditional boats outside of my own area, but I could (with trepidation) make a few semi-educated guesses, I guess. :D Lobster baots need to be beamy to carrl loads of traps and stable to allow a man to haul a heavy, ballasted and waterlogged trap on board, and a common feature is very low freeboard (usually aft of midships) to lessen the distance to lift the trap from water to washrail. These are features found in Cape Cod catboats, Novi and Maine lobster boats, trap skiffs, etc., all of which fished with heavy, hard, bottom gear that needed to be handed aboard. These type of boats also needed clear working decks and high manoeverability. Once in the fishing area, the main would likely be furled and they would use the jib for jigging about from buoy to buoy. I suspect that the decision to rig a single stick or two would depend on local custom and owner's preference. In my area the decision was often based on how far from home the fishing grounds were - nearby called for sloop rig, far away called for more sail in easier-handled doses so schooner or yawl rig was used. If double-sticked, the aft sail was often scandalized to de-power and the middle sail doused, gasketted, and the boom laid over the side opposite the hauling rail. This way, the boat could lay-to and drift down the line of pots and the fisherman could have ample work space on deck and have steerage power available at will. Smart fellahs, these old illiterate fishermen!


Are there plans availible for that Tancook Fishing Sloop? - McB No, I don't believe so. Eamonn Doorley, the resident boatbuilder at the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic, has taken the lines off the original boat - the 'Marilla" - and just measured the scantlings off her as needed. I have been discussing the idea of my borrowing his shop notes and loft-floor offsets and creating a set of plans of her, but we haven't brought this idea into reality yet. Another "must-do" project to add to the list... :eek:


Did you take the picture? If so, how does she sail? - McB I was present at her launching. She came off the ways like a rocket and didn't want to stop - even though she was going backwards! There were very light winds that day, so she didn't stretch her wings, but Eamonn said she handled like a dream. Since then he has told me that she is very fast and nicely mannered. And oh, so pretty! Here's a picture of her underway about ten minutes after her launch:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid125/pb039d73277a388176f632fe69a40bf92/f802544d.jpg

[boatlover]

McB, et al:

I was googling for something else today, and came across a design called SARAH CAT:

LOD - 23'
DWL - 20'
Beam - 8'4"
Draft - 2'7"/4'4"

Looks like a pretty good fit to the original requirements, with the exception noted below.

http//www.kastenmarine.com

Easiest is to get to the plans/price page and click on the name.

Michael doesn't think highly of the topsail idea, but ... if the customer is always right ...

Regards,

Ed R

[Wild Dingo]

ooooooohhhhhhh ****e!! :rolleyes: Michael you mad flamin frozen waste livin buggar :eek:

They are 2 of the most painfully stunning wee boats Ive seen in a heck of a long time! Since Art regaled us with his baby in fact... soooooo flamin gorgeous :cool:

Can plans be had of either?

sigh hey Art ol mate when you gonna post some more pics of your beautiful baby mmmm???

[Wild Dingo]

BUMP!


Originally posted by mmd:
A Tancook fishing sloop
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid125/p64d0da4aa3fa93610ef0ffd008d2f07a/f8025496.jpg

A Sable Island surf rescue skiff
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid125/p3fa3699fdeaafcb29906a07cdc9b6aca/f8025300.jpgOkay so you havent gotten around to gettin the plans drawn up for the Tancook fishing sloop... can you feel that slap Michael??? :eek: All the way from downunder mate a right whack upside the noggin mate... strewth talk about slack! :rolleyes: ;)

Okay so theyre not available but what about the Sable Island surf rescue skiff are plans around for her?

strewth but that Tancooks sweet :cool:

[ 11-27-2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[PVanderwaart]

Also, YM Tanton's design #936
Drawings and pictures here:
http://www.tantonyachts.com/images5.htm

[Venchka]

Plans for the Tancook sloop from page 1 are rumored to be available by spring or early summer.

Wayne
In the Swmap. :D

[ 12-07-2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]