Yawldory change - Vote!

[Roger Long]

Here is a solution to Yawldory balance conundrum. I'm not sure it looks quite as good but I think that's more on paper than will be apparent on the water and it solves an number of issues.

If I just move the centerboard and mizzen back one frame:

* The centerboard is in a more normal position in the hull.

* The central sleeping area is made longer.

* Interference of mainsail with mizzen sprit ends is eliminated

* Mizzen sheeting is improved and the mizzen fits better on the hull.

While I was at it, I changed the mizzen to a sprit boom for less head banging and easier stowing. The steering area will be smaller but this is a busy place and probably best for just one person anyway. There will still be just six feet between the mizzen mast and transom.

Tell me what you think.

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/YawldoryChoice.gif

[ShagRock]

Well..if novices can vote, I vote Yes. Shifting the board and mizzen aft definitely gives the 'whole' figure a more balanced look to 'my eye'. But the angle on the mizzen boom doesn't seem to blend in with any other angles..can it's mast end be raised to say be closer to right angles with the main mast boom (if such even makes sense)?

[Steve Paskey]

I think that's a great idea, Roger, and it looks good.

If you pressed me, I'd probably say that the original looks a little bit better ... but that's ONLY because I can see the two side-by-side.

If I saw just the proposed new version by itself, without the original for comparison, I'd think that it looks great, and I certainly wouldn't find myself thinking: "Nice, but it would be even better-looking if you could move the mizzen forward a bit..."

[Woxbox]

Looks better all around to my eye, and won't she tack a bit more reliably this way?

Also, you can stretch a bigger tent/awning between the masts now.

[perldog007]

I don't have a clue as to functionality, but it looks better to me ( FWIW, I am not an expert on what looks good in boats to others).

The change on the mizzen boom agrees as well.

[boylesboats]

I am afraid it would upset weather helm, or worse.. Unless you have sailin' experiences...

[mizzenman]

I liek the new sailplan better.

But I have a nother sugestion, you are not asking for sugestions but votes. But I can't stop my selfe ;)

Move the mizzen even further backwards so the tiller ends just behind the mizzenmast.

Move the mast just a littelforward and give it a boom, sprit if you like. This will make the main selftending and give some space between the sails so as to reduce interference of the main on the mizzen. It will allso give the helms man/woman a litle space to slip between the sails as she comes about

When sailing you sit on the mizzen twart, reaching behind the mizzen mast to hold the tiller. As you tack you simply slipp over to the new windward side. Moving between the mizzen mast and the back end of the main boom.

Only problem is you will have to let go of the tiller for a short while. this could be solved by a rope loop between the tiller and one block on each rail. A hand on the rope would stedy the tiller.

[johnw]

Looks like it will balance under main only, which would be convenient. Doesn't look like it will balance under jib and jigger, but few people actually use that rig, especially with the jib set on an unstayed mast. Have you thought of making the foot of the main a little shorter so that it can be sheeted with more than one part? Now that main only is the obvious heavy-weather rig, that might be a thought. I find that with sprit booms, you don't need as much power to sheet in because the self-vanging of the rig means you don't have to pull the boom down.

Having a sprit and a sprit boom seems a little busy to me. If you're going with the sprit boom, why not a leg-of-mutton sprit rig? Also, I worry about the sprit boom, which will project farther forward if it's set up with a snotter, will foul the mainsail leach. Here's a different setup that you might like.

http://jimluton.com/images/chapskiffscan1.jpg

To keep the gooseneck from dropping down, you attach a line to the luff about a foot above the gooseneck's intended position, and attach it to the boom with a loop and toggle arrangement.

[Roger Long]

why not a leg-of-mutton sprit rig?

Like this?

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/YawldoryAltMizzen.gif

I've been resisting the idea but I'll have to confess that it doesn't harm the looks nearly as much as I thought. Again, any difference will be much more apparent on the paper than on the water. It's certainly more practical and one less stick to stow and deal with.

The sail area would be missed in light air but, since the owner can make her own sails, we've discussed having a mizzen staysail (except set flying with no stay) for ghosting along. This would be nylon light enough that you could practically stuff it into a large pocket and also useful for protecting gear in the forward cockpit storage area from spray when the boom tent isn't being carried.

[Yeadon]

JohnW and I sat down and worked a sprit-boom mizzen recently for my peapod. His recommendation for me, which I think works here too, was to shorten the foot a bit and raise the aspect of the sail's head. You'll pick up a bit of room all around.

My only recomendation is to discard the conventional tiller and move to a norwegian push-pull tiller set-up. (At least for single-handing.) You can then move the mizzen much further back and out of the way, plus it's much easier to move your weight around in the boat depending on your course. On a run, you can stay toward the rear of the boat, while beating to windward you can move forward a bit. You'll also have an opportunity to go all the way forward to tweak the snotter on the main, if need be. With the long stick, the helm is never very far away in this sized boat.

The push-pull is a bit of a mindtrip your first few hours, but after a while it becomes very natural. You can always move back to the conventional tiller when you have crew (ballast) to move around.

Also, I like your boat.

[Lincoln C]

Having a sprit and a sprit boom seems a little busy to me. If you're going with the sprit boom, why not a leg-of-mutton sprit rig? Also, I worry about the sprit boom, which will project farther forward if it's set up with a snotter, will foul the mainsail leach.

To my eye, the mizzen sprits'l looks best. The LOM seems to complicate the lines and angles of the sails and spars. When reefed, you can put the after end of the sprit boom in a pennant with eye to keep the heel from projecting too far forward. As for sprit vs boom, the sprit is way better: much gentler jibing and thus less likely to capsize on accidental jibe where the mizzen wants to make the boat broach and heel. The sprit will give better sail shape and adjustment because of the vanging effect, although on a small mizzen the effect is probably minimal. With the boom you could sheet the mizzen into the cockpit halfway along it for a little better vanging... but then its in the cockpit.

Really, they all look pretty good.

[johnw]

My thinking is that the mizzen tends to be most useful for steering the boat rather than driving it, so the extra area isn't as useful as it would be in the main. I think a mizzen staysail would be quite useful. They are usually set flying and often tacked to the weather side.

I like to simplify small boats, and I think you can set and strike the leg-of-mutton sprit mizzen more easily.

[Lincoln C]

There's always this solution:

http://vivierboats.com/albumsen/youkou_lili/YL%20sprit/Delcourt0182.jpg

As as to the sprit rig details, there's a lot of stuff in this thread: http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102726

Including a hot-rodded sprit rig that could be simplified and still keep some of its advantages:
http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/renatorigging.jpg

[wizbang 13]

Why is it called mizzen stays'l when there is no stay? Isn't it a mizzen jib? And isn't this boat a ketch, not a yawl?Nice clothes,your highness.

[Roger Long]

Why is it called mizzen stays'l when there is no stay?

Why are the most common boats in the world called "sloops" when they aren't?

Jibs are still called jibs when they are set flying so the same convention was carried over to to racing yawls that used to carry them. They are also called jibs when they are actually staysails on a knockabout which is what 99% of sloops actually are.

You're in the wrong hobby for rational nomenclature.

[Steve Paskey]

And isn't this boat a ketch, not a yawl.

As I understand it, the use of the term "yawl" to refer to a sailing rig, regardless of the boat's size, is relatively recent.

According to Francis Herreshoff, a "yawl" is "a ship's boat resembling the pinnacle." By that definition, a yawl rig is any two-masted rig that is suitable for the boat and doesn't interfere with rowing it.

[Roger Long]

As I understand it, the use of the term "yawl"...

In my nautical catechism classes, a yawl was a two masted boat where the mizzen was aft of the rudder post vs. a ketch where it is forward. The aft end of the waterline is another common but probably less accurate definition since the end of the waterline can change with loading. The functional difference is that a yawl mizzen is primarily a trim tab whereas on a ketch it is a working sail. It's popularity during the golden age of wooden boat racing was due to the big mizzen stay(less)sail that could be set from it not being included in the rating calculations. It's popularity among cruisers was helping the boat lie quietly at anchor and giving the helmsman something to hang on to while looking for buoys and landmarks in the days before GPS and radar.

It is a relatively recent term but dates to about the same time knockabouts became sloops.