creosote

[MarkH]

just found a 5 gallon drum of the stuff in my dads shed. Its old - maybe 70's so is likely the 'proper' stuff which depending depending on you're perspective is great in a kill everything forever kinda way or not so great in a kill every thing forever and make you grow an extra head while you're liver dissolves kinda way

does this stuff has a 'shelf life' regarding its effectiveness. was fancying some home brew boat soup using this and some other 'stuff' to slosh in the bilges and elsewhere

[Bob Cleek]

OH, ****! IT'S MR. CREOSOTE!

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/1751/78/n36920714849_7891.jpg

For those who may not have become acquainted with Monty Python:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlK62rjQWLk

Good stuff and hard to come by these days. Soak wooden fence post ends in it. Preserves wood. No good on boats, though. It stinks and paint don't stick to it and what paint does, bleeds through. Some swear by it as a basecoat for bottom paint, though.

[MarkH]

OH, ****! IT'S MR. CREOSOTE!

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/1751/78/n36920714849_7891.jpg

For those who may not have become acquainted with Monty Python:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlK62rjQWLk

Good stuff and hard to come by these days. Soak wooden fence post ends in it. Preserves wood. No good on boats, though. It stinks and paint don't stick to it and what paint does, bleeds through. Some swear by it as a basecoat for bottom paint, though.

even if its "waafer thin"

was going to slap it in the bilges only, and on the new rudder when I make it

I actually quite like the smell, used to make a soup of equal parts of creosote linseed oil and stockholm tar, was hellish stuff, but a bugger to get of anything it landed on

[SMARTINSEN]

I actually quite like the smell

EEEW.

When I was sixteen years old, at one of the first jobs that I ever had, I got so very badly burned when I applied creosote to a wood deck in the hot sun that ever since the smell makes me sick to my stomach. And a couple of drops is all it takes

That was a long time ago. As of a couple years ago, the deck was still standing. Powerful stuff in more ways than one.

That being said, I have a couple of gallons still kicking around that I am saving for the next time that I have to lay down a sill.

I do not think that it would ever go bad as long as it was properly stored in a tight-fitting metal container so that the volatiles could not escape.

[BarnacleGrim]

I too, love the smell of creosote. Like wooden railway sleepers in the summer. Add to that a thick plume of coal smoke from a steam locomotive. Not something I would consider in a boat, though.

[Bob Cleek]

Yes, there is another issue to consider. In this sad day and age, the eco-nazis are everywhere. You may find when the time comes to sell your boat or, worse, to commend her to the depths of the landfill, that because of that creosote, she's become a "superfund site" and you'll have to call in the local hazmat team to take her off your hands with the attendant toxic material disposal costs.

[Larks]

If you don't have a use for it (outside of the boat idea) don't throw it away, someone will probably pay good money for it for their fences. I've been trying to locate some here in Oz and the "alternative" that has been developed is just useless, washes away with the rain on the exposed timber of the fence after 12 months (I'm about to apply sump oil instead).

[RFNK]

The original coal-tar creosote that is widely used around the world was banned from sale in Australia many years ago. I don't know how efective the newer `lite' creosote really is as a wood preservative but I still use it around the house. I wouldn't use it on the boat because the smell is overwhelming and pervasive. Creosote was banned, I believe, because scientists found that if they put creosote on rats and mice with shaved skin, they developed cancerous lesions after several weeks of repeated applications (daily I think). Clearly environmental and health hazards should be minimised at worst and removed completely at best but the extrapolation of this kind of highly dubious `science' to real world applications is spurious in my view. If I were king these `scientists' would be gaoled for their inhumanity. Rick

[Chip-skiff]

As a timber-fence foreman, I set hundreds of creosote-treated posts.

These days—after a bout with a nasty skin cancer (melanoma)— I shudder to think of all the times I hugged those posts with my bare sweaty arms, and didn't wash 'til after sunset.

I guess you have to balance the effectiveness against the consequences of overexposure. Long sleeves and gloves (throw 'em out when you're done) seem like a minimum.

[ARW123]

No - it doesn't have a shelf life, but a word of warning - it lingers!.

In the mid 80s I helped my Father re-roof our house. Every rafter and beam was coated in Creosote...............for the next 20 years you could smell my parents coming way before you saw them, the smell of creosote pervaded the whole house including the wardrobes and all the clothes in them. It was impossible to eradicate it - even today when you walk in the house there is a vague smell of the stuff. I would imagine that in a boat the effects might very similar!!!!

Having said that, I don't believe anything works like it. I had thought about using it on the bottom of my boat as a sort of primer before I paint the bottom with tar varnish - at least it will be on the outside, but I still expect "fragrant seepage" to the inside. Also not too sure how it will affect her taking up.

You can still buy proper creosote (in the UK) all you need to do is prove you are a professional user (fencer, landscape gardener, builder) or have and agricultural holding number; you can only get it in the big drums though...

[MikeWoodhinge]

We used to handle Creosote in the "old” wood shop, but thank goodness didn't use it much because it stinks forever. It also gets into the environment much like DDT, kills everything including humans after a while with enough exposure. EPA has banned it and I certainly wouldn't use it for the reason that you'd need an application license, not that you could get one, especially for a boat. I think the fine for soil and water contamination here in North Carolina starts at $10,000 and goes up from there. I’d Call EPA or your local has-mat authorities and let them take it off your hands.

[Greg Nolan]

Anyone who would use creosote in or on a recreational boat is nuts -- its toxic qualities are well-known. To poison surfaces you and your family come in contact with as well as the air your breath, and to create an ongoing problem with using and disposing or treated material makes no sense. To use in water used by others for recreation is irresponsible. Yes, you are just one person with one small boat -- but poisons in the environment add up, especially persistent poisons such as creosote.

People like Cleek who think any regulatory action taken to protect people and the environment is the action of Nazis clearly lack common sense, are ignorant of modern science, and seem to have no regard for others. What might have been reasonable when only a few million people were scattered throughout this country might not be reasonable now that we have a more than 300 million people, often crowded in dense urban settings (and overcrowded marinas) -- what might have seemed safe when we didn't know much about it should be treated differently when we learn about its dangers.

Dismissing as eco-nazis those who act to protect people from dangerous materials and from their own ignorance is just plain stupid. Cleek might be educated (he is a matrimonial lawyer, but as far as I know, not a chemist or an engineer) but his solipsistic willingness to encourage use of known toxins based on nothing but his own willful ignorance is selfish and irresponsible.

Just because something was once widely used does not mean that it is safe -- people do learn things over time, and when people learn that something is more dangerous than once known, people should stop using it, even if an old 5 gallon pail of it happens to be on hand. What an individual does can affect those around him, and society has the right -- and government has the obligation -- to limit the damage an individual can do to others.

Creosote is bad stuff. It is not completely banned, but its legitimate use is severely limited, and even most utility companies have begun to use other wood treatments for poles, notwithstanding creosotes undeniable effectiveness -- it is effective precisely because it is toxic -- it is a poison that has no place in or on a modern boat. Just because it likely will not kill you does not mean that it has no effect on your health or the health of others.

The Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry of the Department of Health and Human Services says:

Breathing vapors of the creosotes, coal tar, coal tar pitch, or coal tar pitch volatiles can cause irritation of the respiratory tract. Eating large amounts of creosote (any form) may cause a burning in the mouth and throat and stomach pains. Eating large amounts of herbal remedies containing creosote bush leaves may cause liver damage, while large amounts of coal tar creosote may result in severe skin irritation, eye burns, convulsions, unconsciousness, and even death.

Long-term (365 days or longer) exposure to lower levels of coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, or coal tar pitch volatiles by skin or air contact can cause skin damage such as blistering or peeling.

Animals fed large amounts of wood creosote had convulsions and died, while those fed lower levels had liver and kidney problems. Animal studies have shown that when pregnant animals breathe creosote, it may cause harmful effects to the baby.

Long-term exposure, especially direct contact with skin during wood treatment or manufacture of coal tar creosote-treated products, to low levels of creosote has resulted in skin cancer and cancer of the scrotum. Cancer of the scrotum in chimney sweeps has been associated with long-term skin exposure to soot and coal tar creosotes. Animal studies have also shown skin cancer from skin exposure to coal tar products.

The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans. The EPA has also determined that coal tar creosote is a probable human carcinogen.

*******************
The Environmental Protection Agency classifies it as a wood preservative not for use in residential settings:

• Do not use where frequent or prolonged contact with bare skin can occur.
• Do not use in residential settings. In interiors of industrial buildings, it should be used only for industrial building components which are in ground contact and subject to decay or insect infestation and for wood block flooring in industrial settings.
• Do not use in the interiors of farm buildings where there may be direct contact with domestic animals or livestock which may bite or lick the wood.
• Do not use treated wood for cutting-boards or counter tops.
• Do not use where it may come into direct or indirect contact with public drinking water.

• Dispose of treated wood by ordinary trash collection or burial.
• Do not burn wood in open fires or in stoves, fireplaces, or residential boilers because toxic chemicals may be produced as part of the smoke and ashes.
• Avoid frequent or prolonged inhalation of sawdust from treated wood.
• Avoid frequent or prolonged skin contact with creosote-treated wood.

We no longer allow the use of mercury in hat-making; we no longer allow the use of x-ray machines in shoe stores to check fit. Mercury and x-rays have good, valid uses, but we know now that they must not be used casually. Similarly, we know that creosote, while it may have some limited usefulness, is too toxic to use casually.

Contact your local sanitation department or health department to learn how to dispose of tour 5 gallon pail of creosote. It is too toxic to just pour down a drain or on the ground or to treat as ordinary waste.

[peter radclyffe]

so, how much is your cuprinol

[MarkH]

that's me then! pirate to the last!

white lead, red lead, napthanates, borates! abandon all hope yee who step on board, for it be a veritable den of noxiousness. And I was really looking forward to licking the bilges as well. the black sludge down there might even make a passable alternative to marmite


Animals fed large amounts of wood creosote had convulsions and died, while those fed lower levels had liver and kidney problems.

that made me smile though! Like what did they expect to happen? Animals fed large amount of creosote turned brown and started to poo barbeque charcoal briquettes?

wonder what other conclusions whoever did that research came up with??:

animals fed large amounts of nitro glycerin have a tendency to explode if they get too excited and cows that drink excessive amounts of wood alcohol should not be allowed to drive cars or operate heavy machinery!

[George Ray]

You might read Larry Pardey on creosote in his book on boatbuilding, he is a fan.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zSHbJ9evZNMC&dq=creosote+pardey+boat&source=gbs_navlinks_s


Details of Classic Boat Construction: The Hull
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0964603683