Canoe yawl design [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

Rancocas

05-19-2003, 04:28 PM

Yes both the Eel and the Jenny Wren come close to what I'm looking for - close, but not quite right. I don't know the beam of the Wren, but the Eel is abit too wide to suit me. Frankly, they look a little "tubby" to my eye. Also I prefer a rudder that is hung off the stern, and has a yoke connected to another yoke at the tiller.
Actually, I found several canoe yawl designs that I like on this website: http://dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/progress5.html
These are all over 100 year old designs, and I have no idea where I could find plans for any of them. I'm hoping that someone might have plans to make one or all of them out of modern lapstrake plywood. Personally, I haven't a clue about boat designing.
I especially like "Annie", "Iris" (fixed keel), and the "Mersey Canoes".
I'm going out of town now, for a couple of days. I'll catch up with this when I get back.
Thanks

Venchka

05-19-2003, 04:52 PM

Now we have the whole story. More "canoe" than canoe yawl. Good luck.

Steve Paskey

05-19-2003, 09:36 PM

Okey dokey, here's another option. Go back to that material by WP Stevens and look at the canoe yawl IRIS. Mystic has plans for a similar boat called HALF MOON (cat. no 7.72). She's 18-3 long with a 5-5 beam. Half Moon was built around 1930 and was based on Iris, with the addition of 460 lbs of ballast, 4 inches depth to the keel, and a gunter yawl rig.

Ben Fuller discussed Half Moon in "87 Boat Designs," his catalog of small boat plans at Mystic. He notes that Roger Taylor devoted a chapter to her in "Good Boats," and that Taylor suggested adding a centerboard (as did Stevens) and reverting to the original full-batten lug rig. (In Ben's words, the sail plan shown in the Mystic lines -- a low aspect leg-of-mutton -- is "downright ugly.") Ben also notes that she'd likely move nicely under oars in a calm once you got her going.

[ 05-19-2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

John Gearing

05-19-2003, 10:22 PM

Now hold on! The boats in W.P. Stephens' book are the ORIGINAL canoe yawls! Don't dismiss Rancocas so brusquely. He's onto something here. The original boats were developments of the sailing canoe, designed to be better sailers, with some minimal accommodation, and to be rowed instead of paddled. Yes, the type changed over time, witness Strange's bigger canoe yawls. They still get the same name though they are quite different from the original concept.

Okay, now that we've rehabilitated Rancocas....
I just got back from looking at the Dragnonfly site. I don't know what you are looking for in the way of plans by way of "Iris". The table of offsets is right there, along with the dimensions of the spars and the ballast weights. With this info and a good book on building in lapstrake ply, you could start to figure out how you are going to build this boat. As for the other designs, I agree that there is not the same amount of information. If you want to build another design try searching the various museums with maritime/boat departments to see whether they might have plans. I assume you've run a search in www.boat-links.com? (http://www.boat-links.com?) And if worse comes to worse, you could always simply pay a good designer to design you a canoe yawl that looks like one of the Stephens plans you admire. Go for it!

garland reese

05-19-2003, 11:00 PM

Selway Fisher has some very nice canoe yawls. The 16 foot Casco Bay and the larger canoe yawl Jim (18'4") come to mind.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Jimd1.gif

18'4" JIM CANOE YAWL

Since designing Lillie, we have had several enquiries for new canoe yawl designs. I think that this is partly due to their obvious elegance in shape and function. They are beautiful craft and represent a very personal form of sailing. The journeys of exploration and pleasure by MacGregor, Baden Powell and others in the early sailing canoes are legendary and conjure up visions of simple rugged sailing into inlets and estuaries and around European coastal islands. The simplicity of this type of boat is very often refreshing after the sophistication (and complication) of many modern fibre-glass craft. The standard building method is based upon stitched ply/epoxy construction but she could easily be built using the strip planked method. Provision is made for simple scrap steel or lead ballast in the bilges below the sole. The sole area itself is large enough for comfortable sleeping by 2 people forward of the thwart with a third perhaps aft. The simple lug rigged main and gunter mizzen have been used to keep sail handling simple with easy reefing and to keep the spar lengths down to fit into the length of the boat. LOD 18’4’’ (5.60m); Beam 5’6’’ (1.68m); Draft 11’’/3’5’’ (.29/1.05m); Sail Area 156 sq.ft. (14.57 sq.m.); Wht ex ballast 507 lbs. (230 kg); Ballast up to 321 lb. (150 kg).

garland reese

05-19-2003, 11:07 PM

Or you might consider having the Casco Bay lengthened to 18 feet and drawn/spec'd up for ply lapstrake (Selway-Fisher commonly does modifications for various types of construction)....... I love the curved spars on this rig.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cascod1.gif

The Casco Bay 16 was designed for Maurice Byrne of the Boatyard Upstairs for a Swiss client who wanted a fast, easily handled canoe yawl for use on his home lakes. We have developed an efficient and stable hull form with slight influence from the Casco Bay Peapods. We have kept the waterline length as high as possible with short overhangs at each end, but still retained a sweet looking hull with an attractive sheer line and well cambered decks. Construction is for strip planking (veneered or simply glass sheathed). She has an inboard rudder which hinges up into a box when she comes ashore and her elegant lug yawl rig can be altered by removing the mizzen and stepping the main further aft. the drawings show details for curved spars but these could be straight. LOD 16'1" (4.9m); Beam 4'8" (1.43m); draft 7" and 3'7" (.19m and 1.12m); Sail Area 140 sq.ft (13 sq.m); Approx. weight (excl. spars) 309 lbs (140 kg).

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cascop1.jpg

rbgarr

05-19-2003, 11:34 PM

Howard Chapelle took lines from a 20' Crotch Island pinky and drew them up for his book, American Small Sailing Craft. See pp. 148.

[ 05-20-2003, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

Bill Perkins

05-20-2003, 12:44 AM

You moved me to pull out The Book Rbgarr .Due to an editing error I found myself looking at a detail I'd highlighted from an Isle of Shoals boat.This shows the rigging of a single halyard on the gaff rig in an ingenious way, had you looked at this ? The halyard runs up to a double block at the top ,down to a single at the throat ,up again to the top block and so to it's termination about 3/5ths of the way along the gaff .Twice as much tent ion would be applied to the luff of the sail as to the end of the line supporting the gaff and the leach .Seems like the way to do on small gaffers.

[ 05-20-2003, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

rbgarr

05-20-2003, 05:15 AM

Bill- You lost me on the 'editing error' bit but no matter. A similar arrangement is shown on the plan for the smaller Jonesport peapod (p. 219) except with the addition of a metal 'crane' at the masthead for mounting the block. I've always wondered how well that would work, especially off the wind unless that crane swivels on top of the mast. 'Scandalizing' (dropping the gaff end in a sudden squall) might be more difficult, but that wouldn't be the end of the world on a boat that small. I've sailed the 25' Crotch Island pinky, closer in size to the Isle of Shoals boat, and having the ability to adjust the throat and peak independantly was important in getting the boat to sail her best. But the rig you note would be a fun one to try, wouldn't it? If it didn't suit, no catastrophic harm done.

IMO, some of Chapelle's rigs were 'best guesses' based on his experience or approximations (from interviews with locals, perhaps?) I imagine that some of the boats he drew up lines for just had mast steps and partners remaining as a rough guide for what the original rigs were like. Anyone building one of his designs might benefit by having a rig/sailmaker check over the plans as drawn rather than blindly forging ahead.

[ 05-20-2003, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

Bill Perkins

05-20-2003, 01:18 PM

The Isle of Shoals boat has a crane too .I think independent adjustment of the leech tention might be had by shifting the attachment point of the halyard's end on the gaff , tho you'd have to lower the sail to do it.A track and car on top of the gaff would make a more conveinient attachment point .Maybe this would have a control line led to the cockpit ( a peak outhaul?)...but then we're back to two strings again! Still raiseing ,lowering , and reefing the sail would be handier with a single halyard ,and slackening such an outhaul would allow scandalizing the sail if need be .I think there would need to be a stopper on the halyard ,it's distance from the end equal to the distance from the top block to the throat .This would stop against the top block when the sail was fully raised and would allow the gaff to drop and the car to run to the throat if the control line was eased .

[ 09-12-2005, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

Wild Dingo

05-20-2003, 01:40 PM

How would you like to be this fella?

edited to delete what I put here which wasnt what was wanted... I thought of Eun Mara which seemed initially to fill most of the requirements if a tad larger... sigh... aahh well no worries! :cool:

[ 05-20-2003, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

Meerkat

05-20-2003, 08:34 PM

Short on accomodations, but worthy of honorable mention (and would be a great boat for the Dingo to contemplate building)...
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/Beth8.jpg http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/Beth1.jpg
Beth the Kamikaze Canoe Yawl (http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/beth.htm)

I drew Beth with a real intention to build for myself. I had lots of different ideas that I wanted to try out in a light, cartoppable sailboat:

* the boat to be crewed mostly by one, but with enough carrying capacity for camping gear or a light person for company on daytrips
* performance equivalent to a modern sailing dinghy
* narrow beam. It's not necessarily weight that makes a boat hard to handle on land on one's own, but bulk. Also, I was curious just how far the beam could be cut down without resulting in constant capsizing.

Ben Fuller

05-20-2003, 08:40 PM

One of the things that most of old ones have and that few of the new ones do is a long foredeck and relatively small cockpit. You were not taking half a dozen of your best friends for a toot around the harbor. You were set on serious sailing at a time when there was no coast guard. Boats needed to be able to row well as there were no outboards. Somewhere I have a quote from Albert Strange in an article I did who was interested in boats that were small enough to do Mad Things. If you ever get up to Mystic a look at Iris would be a good thing. Plenty of room under the foredeck and if you can lose irrational prejudices against daggerboards, you would not cut it up much.

If you want smaller boats wander the web to Swedish sailing canoes and find their Class C and D boats. They race them but they also go off for a week in the Archipelago.

Stephen Hutchins

05-21-2003, 09:33 AM

Paul Gartside's canoe yawls come as close to perfection as one can hope for. Also, as a bonus, the man is alive and can easily draw the yawl of your dreams. Check out design No.98 at www.gartsideboats.com (http://www.gartsideboats.com)

Stephen Hutchins

05-21-2003, 09:49 AM

Sorry, it's design No. 82, not No.98 as I wrote above.

Rancocas

05-23-2003, 07:06 AM

I'm back. Had to run over to Savannah for a couple of days. Mostly dodged the rain, but did get caught in a downpour near Macon, Georgia, on the way home last night.
Thank you one and all for your responses. Excellent.
I'll have to take a real close look at Selway-Fisher. That "Jim" looks just about right to me, maybe with just a bit more foredeck and less cockpit.

Aramas

07-11-2003, 04:13 AM

Don't forget to check out George Holmes' work, and there's a lot of good stuff in Dixon Kemp's "Manual of Yacht and Boat Sailing". It has the plans of 'Vital Spark' (18' x 5') and 'Mersey Canoe' (18' x 5'3") by S Bond, and 'Viking' (18' x 5') by John Hamilton. All those fit your parameters and they are, in fact, the 'real thing', being designed in the 1880's for cruising on the Mersey and Humber. The book also contains plans for George Holmes' 'Ethel' and 'Cassy' - both masterworks but a bit smaller than you want.

Meerkat

07-27-2003, 03:14 PM

Rancocas; Any progress with your canoe yawl project? smile.gif

Bruce Taylor

07-27-2003, 04:26 PM

What Aramas said.

Kemp's book is costly, even as a reprint, but you can buy the chapter on canoes & canoe yawls separately, with full-size reproductions of the original plates, from D. N. Goodchild (the Shellbacks series). It's an indispensable resource, if you're interested in those old-timey canoe yawls.

Meerkat

07-27-2003, 04:34 PM

Brue; Cool reference - thanks! I found it under the title "Canoe Yawls" in Goodchild's catalog. At $10, it's a considerably better deal than the $85 full edition.
Canoe Yawls ...A history and several designs of the famous Mersey Canoe Yawls., Kemp, Dixon---, 40pp, 16pl, booklet, $9.95--5537

There is also another expert called "Canoeing":
Canoeing ...An extract of the last chapter of Dixon Kemp's massive work, "A Manual of Yacht and Boat Sailing.", Kemp, Dixon---, 168pp, 17pl, duodecimo with plates, $29.95--0098

I also found this, the author being the surprise: Canoeing in the Wilderness ...An essential companion to "Paddle & Portage" and the usual tour de force by a great American writer., Thoreau, Henry David---, 191pp, duodecimo, $17.95--0286
Walden on the water?

[ 07-27-2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Bruce Taylor

07-27-2003, 05:00 PM

Meerkat, the second excerpt, "Canoeing," is the one you want, I think. It includes the section on canoe yawls as well as those separately bound plates showing the yawls Severn, Mersey Canoe, Humber Yawl, Nautilus, Cassy and Ethel.

Aramas

07-28-2003, 02:02 AM

Bruce is correct in that the 'Canoeing' section also contains the information on canoe yawls, however, it's actually in a subsection of that chapter called 'canoe yawls'. i suspect the information would be in both. Without the 'canoeing' section you'll miss out on Baden-Powell (the boy scout guy) and his hilarious Heath Robinson victorian gentleman's contraptions (I think HR's US imitator was Rube Goldberg). The lines of 'Pearl' are also worth the extra bucks.
Personally I'd shell out for the whole book (actually I did!) - it's priceless. Like everything else of that era, it's chock full 'o nuts,but there is an incredible amout of work in it. Casually waving the lines of a ULDB bulb keeler from the 1880's at someone that thinks modern boats are something new is fun for the whole family.

[ 07-28-2003, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

N. Scheuer

07-28-2003, 11:45 AM

The last time I capsized a sailboat was soething like thirty years ago, while sailing a Grumman Sailing Canoe. As I rember, my problem, cited above, was too many strings. This canoe had a single sheet, along with a pair of lanyards connected to a yoke on the rudder head. Having only two hands, and one of them trimming the sheet, I could reach the opposite rudder lanyard quickly enough to avoid a dunking.

The Old Town Sailing Canoe I plan to rebuild eventually will has a push-pull stick on the rudder instead of lanyards.

It would seem to me than one way to reduce the simply the number of sheets to trim would be to have them come together in such a way that both can be adjusted simultaniously using just one hand.

One thing for sure, two-sticker sailing canoes sure look interesting!

Good Luck, Moby Nick

N. Scheuer

07-28-2003, 11:48 AM

Never Mind! I meant to post this on Meerkat's "sailing Canoe question" thread!

Moby Nick

Shalfleet

08-07-2003, 12:02 AM

Rancocas,

So what is your favorite and when do you start to build?

Mine is the Casco Bay 16. I just received the study plans and have discussed potential modifications with Paul Fisher. I would like a little more overhang, a sliding seat for rowing and perhaps three sails....all of which might be possible.....I can feel the press of breeze right now.... smile.gif

Rancocas

08-07-2003, 04:30 PM

Well, of the ones I've seen on this thread, I like "Jim" the best. It is a Selway-Fisher design, as is the Casco Bay, which I also like. But my favorite is a design from the 1880's called "Iris".
Iris was an 18 footer, with a 5 foot beam. She had a fixed keel, and a draft of about 1 1/2 feet. Her cockpit was about 7 feet long by about 3 1/2 feet wide. She had a standing lug mainsail, and her mizzen was a small spirit.
Changes I would make to her, to suit my needs and taste, would be to add a centerboard, and to make three mast steps so that I could rig her as was the original, or change to a cutter rig, with added bowspirit and foresails.
I have a lines drawing only of Iris, but I think she is absolutely beautiful.
Time table? I have no idea. Right now I'm finishing a stripper canoe, and have several other projects in various stages of completion. (not boats) Autumn is the busy time of year for me, and I will be traveling quite a bit then, so I don't expect to do any boat work at that time. I hope this winter to make a scale model of Iris. I'll move on from there. If and when I get the full size canoe yawl built, she will be christened "Anita G.", after my maturnal grandmother.

Barry

08-07-2003, 07:22 PM

"either yawl or cutter rigged (preferably both options available) with gaff main and lug mizzen"

Maybe I'm confused(wouldn't be a first) but isn't a traditonal Yawl rig a Ketch Rig?

Rancocas

08-07-2003, 09:40 PM

Barry;
Yawls and ketches are similarly rigged. The main difference, as I understand it, is that the mizzen on a yawl is locate far aft, behind the helm. Whereas, in a ketch, both masts are foreward of the helm.
A ketch is also very similar to a schooner. On a ketch the mizzen is the shorter mast, but on a schooner the taller main mast is the after mast. Except, of course, those big old time schooners of 3 or more masts.
However, "canoe yawl", in the original meaning of the term, is a double ended craft having much more bean than a normal canoe, and so it can not be paddled easily, although it can be, and often is rowed, and it is usually yawl rigged. But, it can be cutter rigged, and still be called a canoe yawl. The shape of the hull being the important factor.
Canoe yawls were developed as an improvement over the sailing canoes which were popular in the late 1800's. The wider beam allowed the craft to cruise bigger, rougher waters.
These were open boats, but many people took long riverine and coastal cruises in them. Some for a thousand miles or more. They often camped in the cockpit, under a boom tent.
That is what I would like to do. Start at Knoxville Tennessee, at the head of the Tennessee River. Follow the Tennessee down to the Ohio. Then down the Ohio to the Mississippi. Then down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico. Then along the Gulf coast to ...
Hopefully, I would like to do this by the time I reach 60 (5 more years). Similar cruises, in similar boats, have been made. ;)

Barry

08-08-2003, 12:46 AM

Thanks Rancocas:
This is confusing.

First Image is A Fred Martin 22' "Canoe Yawl". 1891
Racine Yacht and Boat works.

Second image I'm not certain, but is referred to as a Smith Yawl.
http://pages.interlog.com/~timgitt/hist/dsc_m/martin_yawl_22ft_sails.gif

http://pages.interlog.com/~timgitt/hist/dsc_m/smith_yawl_sail_plan.gif

[ 08-08-2003, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Barry ]

chrisk

01-03-2004, 11:51 PM

Aramas, would I find George Holmes plans for Eel in Dixon Kemp's Canoes and Canoe Yawls ?

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

Aramas

01-04-2004, 12:43 AM

No, but they're in the Eel excerpt from Garden's book that I've already emailed to you smile.gif

Wb #75 also contains the story of La Mouette, a lapstrake Holmes' Eel, with lots of photos during building and after launch.

Somehow Eel's original plans ended up in the hands of Olin Stephens, and are allegedly now held by the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum. Apparently they're more than happy to sell copies smile.gif

I share your interest in Holmes' Iris, but the only information I've found on her is this page on Cassy and Iris (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/cassy.html) on the Canoe Sailing Resources page. (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/canoe_sailing.html#index)

chrisk

01-04-2004, 01:19 AM

Yep, I got WB #75 in the mail today. La Mouette is certainly very pretty. Unfortunately, the stretched 23' x 8' wouldn't make it out of my garage, I have a double door two car garage.

I am waiting till Monday after the holidays to call up the Chesapeake Maritime museum, but wanted to know if there was more info in the Dixon Kemp book. Sounds like a nice book to have anyway. It would seem to be a good companion to WP Stephens book as some of the designs mentioned in it are shown or mentioned in the WP Stephens book also.

There is a table of offsets in "Canoe and Boatbuilding for the Amateur" by W.P. Stephens on page 188 for a Canoe Yawl called "Iris". It's listed as 18' x 5' 1". Also detailed info on the rigging and location of the rigging.

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

Aramas

01-04-2004, 01:35 AM

23' x 8' - sounds like a perfect size to me smile.gif

chrisk

01-04-2004, 01:50 AM

Me too! But the boat would look so much prettier out on the water rather then inside my garage! As it stands the garage door width is 7' 10". If I am willing to rip out some molding and the garage door out to where the frames actually start, I can get about 8' 1" in width. That's just too close. Also, my garage is only 24' long so I may not have much room to work.

Plus it'd be a hard sell to the wife if I have to go ripping out parts of her house, even if it is the garage. Wives, they just don't understand!

I am sure Iris in WP Stephens book is the same as the one on the web pages you referred to previously. I didn't look at your page until after I posted, but the info there is the same as in the WP Stephens book, with the table of offsets include, also available from DN Goodchild.

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

Aramas

01-04-2004, 02:27 AM

It sounds like your garage would have plenty of room if you built a boat diagonally across it. Considering how much work there is in building a boat then a few 'modifications' to the garage shouldn't be too much of a problem. An inch on either side is plenty - it's only over a foot or two of length that it even gets close. It's not like your going to nail a chain to the bow and take off flat chat in a pickup to haul her out - it will be a very careful process anyway. With regard to any real or imagined reticence on the part of SWMBO, women really are wonderfully adaptable ceatures tongue.gif

I just reread the La Mouette Eel article, and the writer claims that the original Eel carried 1.5 tonnes of pig iron internal ballast - that's a lot! I wouldn't mind verification on that. If that's correct then she must have been at least a 3 tonner. Strange's Cherub II had a total ballast(ext, int and CB)of around half a tonne on a similar length, with a displacement of just 1.1 tonnes. So who's the 'canoe yacht' guy then?

I was just being 'smug' about the 23' x 8' - that just happens to be the dimensions of Gwenda smile.gif

It's just occurred to me just how cool it is to be able to prattle on about this kind of stuff. I've never met anyone in real life that would be even vaguely interested smile.gif

[ 01-04-2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

chrisk

01-05-2004, 02:21 PM

I just called the Cheapeake Bay Maritime Museum and they don't seem to have the plans for George Holmes' Eel. So, I guess I'll look elsewhere.

Thanks
Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

Aramas

01-05-2004, 10:20 PM

Did you ask them if they have plans arranged in collections, or a catalogue or something?

It might take a bit of detective work, but it's not like buying a Tom Clancy novel. Most people have never heard of canoe yawls let alone George Holmes.

chrisk

01-06-2004, 12:55 AM

I left a message for them asking about the availability of George Holmes Eel. I got a call back from them about 30 or 40 minutes later and talked to a person who said they had asked the curator about it and the curator told them they didn't have it.

Maybe I should try a bit harder, like call and ask specifically for the curator.

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

Aramas

01-06-2004, 01:08 AM

The only other lead I have is that the original eel was restored in 1990 by Alan S R Staley, 31 Newton Road, Tankerton, Whitstable, Kent. Phone: 0227 262726. I've no idea if they're still in business.

Another interesting page is The Campion site, (http://http://www.iotadesign.freeserve.co.uk/html/lines.html) which shows several very different versions of Ethel that GH drew. The owner of the site might be able to help locate Eel's plans.

The drawings of GH's Eel in Garden's book are attributed to the estate of Uffa Fox.

[ 01-06-2004, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

Meerkat

01-06-2004, 02:37 AM

A link for Holes/Eel (an expert from Stephens' Canoe and Boat Building):
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~f assitt/canoe_mirror/cassy.html (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/cassy.html)

It also suggests Woodenboat #75 - the article by William Garden.

Paul Fisher of Selway-Fisher drew up a modern stitch and glue version for Tom Dunderdale at Campion Design - he might be a source of information too (http://www.selway-fisher.com). It's called the "Lillie". Incidentally, the boat seen on Campion's site is different in detail from the plans offered by SF - it's also for sale!

(NOTE: the site above for Campion is out of date: the correct URL is http://www.campionboats.co.uk/)

It's not a canoe yawl, but lug lovers might like Campion's "Apple"
http://www.iotadesign.freeserve.co.uk/assets/images/3apple2ed.jpg

[ 01-06-2004, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Aramas

01-06-2004, 03:02 AM

Meer - I couldn't find the section on Ethel on the new site, however it is on the link i gave and it still works smile.gif

chrisk

01-06-2004, 04:09 PM

I got an email back from "Uffa Fox on line". Apparently, there are lines plan, arrangment plan and small sail plan in Uffa's book "Sailing, Seamanship and Yacht Construction". But, he has not seen any original plans. He'll keep an eye out and ping me if he runs across them. Possibly William Garden got his drawings from Uffa's book.

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

dadadata

01-14-2004, 11:13 AM

I suspect someone already posted the link:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/canoe_yawl.html

... which is something of an annotated and illustrated bibliography. I've since located other Canoe Yawl resources - when I first put this stuff up Selway Fisher (mentioned somewhere above) was not on the Web.

CG Davis' canoe yawl sounds like a candidate if stretched to 18 ft by spacing the frames/molds out some.

The above resource also clarifies the difference between "Canoe" and "Canoe Yawl" and "Canoe Yacht" in the words of the forefathers. Other types to keep an eye out for would be Humber Yawls, Mersey Canoes and Clyde Canoes.

As far as Dixon Kemp goes, I located a copy of his 6th edition and will eventually be putting the good stuff online. (I've also located the Plates from WP Stephens' book at the Naval Academy Library and will be putting them online at some point).

I'd be happy to provide xeroxes of any specific canoe-yawl boat in exchange for a stamped self-addressed envelope and say a buck. Offer expires at midnight. No wait. Email me directly at dadadata@friend.ly.net and we'll work it out. Offer expires, say on Feb 29th <chuckle>.

Much of what was in Kemp came from the Field or from Forest and Stream. WP Stephens had quite a correspondence with his UK compatriots and especially with Albert Strange. Somewhere on this side of the pond, likely at Mystic, would be WPS' files including copies of the Humber Yawl Club yearbooks and copies of drawings sent him by Albert Strange.

Many articles, lines, perhaps offset tables for these boats are in Forest & Stream, which can be had on microfilm or, if you're lucky, in some libraries (Boston Public, Widener, some at Ches Bay Maritime Museum, probably Mariners' Museum, Library of Congress[?]).

As far as "Eel" the plans that are at CBMM are tracings from originals. The originals were in the possession of WP Stephens who loaned them to someone (maybe it WAS Olin Stephens, but I don't remember precisely) who was looking into designing some sailing canoe type boats, apparently for his own use). I've seen the plans in their library. You'd have to create offsets/fair to build from them but they are very nicely done.

I'll be damned if I can find copies of THE FIELD from the late 1800s anywhere convenient, not even on microfilm.

dadadata

01-14-2004, 11:32 AM

===
The Isle of Shoals boat has a crane too .I think independent adjustment of the leech tention might be had by shifting the attachment point of the halyard's end on the gaff , tho you'd have to lower the sail to do it.A track and car on top of the gaff would make a more conveinient attachment point .Maybe this would have a control line led to the cockpit ( a peak halyard outhaul?)...but then we're back to two strings again! Still raiseing ,lowering , and reefing the sail would be handier with a single halyard ,and slackening such an outhaul would allow scandalizing the sail if need be .I think there would need to be a stopper on the halyard ,it's distance from the end equal to the distance from the top block to the throat .This would stop against the top block when the sail was fully raised and would allow the gaff to drop and the car to run to the throat if the control line was eased .
===

See the Cheap Pages and search on Conor O'Brien for a diagram of this one-halyard system. It was also used on the large, bargelike wherries on the Norfolk Broads.

Ben Fuller

01-14-2004, 07:21 PM

For some reason that is now lost, Albert Strange sent WPStephens his plans. So those originals that exist are in the Mystic Collection. I don't recall if Holmes's Eel is in there as well, or if other Holmes boats are in it. The Leather book on Strange has a bunch of Holmes stuff but the book is out of print.

Mystic does or did have a full set of plans from WPS Canoe and Boat Building for Amateurs printed full size available pretty cheap. Scanning will need stiching software unless one has access to a big scanner.

Any one wanting some tasty sailing canoes and canoe yawls of the 1920's generation should go hunt for Artur Tiller's Kanubau und Segln. There is also another stash of plans at the Swedish National Marilime Museum from a Swedish designer whose name escapes me at the moment. An article on him in I think one of the Brit mags.

chrisk

01-15-2004, 02:52 PM

Ok I sent off some emails to both Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum and Mystic Seaport. In case anyone else wants to follow this path, here are the their replies:

Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I found the plan for the "canoe yawl Eel" designed by George F. Holmes (in 1898). Our copy of the lines is a light pencil on paper drawing that was made by C. Lowndes Johnson, a self-taught but skilled yacht designer who corresponded with W. P. Stephens in the early 20th century. We have three sheets:

93.67.38A lines drawing copied from those of George F. Holmes
93.67.38B modified lines with a transom stern in place of canoe stern
93.67.38C sail plan (sloop) by C. L. Johnson for modified lines.

To be clear, "canoe" refers only to the stern shape, not the hull type. Holmes's design is for a double-ended pocket cruiser. And even in the plates for W. P. Stephens Canoe and Boat Building for Amateurs, yawl is sometimes applied to boats with a one-mast, jib-and-mainsail rig (plates XXIX and XXXV).
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Mystic Seaport:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Thank you for your inquiry regarding plans for the canoe yawl EEL designed by George Holmes. We have only one plan for this vessel, which is our catalog # 1.70:

-- Lines plan. Scale: 1"=1'. Date: 12/22/1897.

Because this plan is drawn on heavy, opaque paper, we cannot reproduce it as a blueline. Instead, we can photocopy it in overlapping 11" x 17" sections which you can tape together.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I thought I'd post this in case someone else goes down this track at a later time.

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

[ 01-15-2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: chrisk ]

Steve Redmond

01-15-2004, 03:12 PM

I believe theat the "yawl" in canoe yawl refers to yawlboat, a hull style, not the rig. Nevertheless many, maybe most, are yawl rigged.

I have two of the original Rob Roy books, incidentally, which are great reading. There's a definite progression from Rob Roy canoes to canoe yawls in design. Basically a progression from portageable canoe-sterned cruisers to primarily centerboard boats that could be moored and ground-out with the tides.

Herreshoff's Ronzinante was somewhat of an excursion from the original lightweight centerboard boats with its full keel and outside ballast. I don't have the lines to look at here, but as I remember, it didn't look like a comfortable boat to heat dinner aboard while lying on a shoal.

I think the defining charactersitics of a canoe yawl were at one time not simply shoal sailing draft, but grounding suitability for estuary cruising in Britain.

Steve Redmond
www.sredmond.com (http://www.sredmond.com)

Ben Fuller

01-15-2004, 07:08 PM

Another characteristic was handling on land. Canoes could go by wagon or rail car being lifted by a couple of strong guys. Sleeping in was like tent camping so there was alot of Inn use.

The canoe yawls were frequently transported by ship. I remember reading of cruises in Holland and I think in the German Mecklenburg lakes done that way. Boats were just that much bigger so sleeping onboard was a reasonable thing to do. In the days of break bulk this was no big deal, but having no substantial keel was important so that the boat did not need much in the way of a cradle.

Aramas

01-16-2004, 03:29 AM

There seems to be a certain amount of artistic license permissible regarding the use of the term 'canoe yawl'. I would subscribe to the point of view that anything over 25 feet and/or lacking a centreboard is probably not a canoe yawl, however, for many Americans LFH's 'Rozinante' defines the type. And like the quixotic tendencies of the original Rozinante's paramour, most of the romance of the type exists only in the mind.

So on balance I figure that if the designer calls it a canoe yawl, then so can we. Now where are those windmills? smile.gif

Bruce Taylor

01-16-2004, 01:40 PM

There is also another stash of plans at the Swedish National Marilime Museum from a Swedish designer whose name escapes me at the moment.Sven Thorell, perhaps?

http://www.interlog.com/~timgitt/hist/hist_photos/thorell_ultra.jpg

[ 01-16-2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

Ben Fuller

01-16-2004, 07:08 PM

Yup, its Thorell. Thanks. One intersting point is that the Swedes are still playing with these as Class C, D and E canoes and still using them for cruising in the archipelago. They run about 17 feet with 10 sq m of sail ( 108 sq ft.) Those long foredecks and small cockpits are nice when it is snotty out when you have low freeboard boats.

chrisk

01-19-2004, 09:04 PM

Would you consider Atkin's "Teach", located at:

http://www.atkinboatplans.com

in the "Sailboat & Auxiliary" section, to be a Canoe Yawl then?

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

dadadata

01-20-2004, 11:13 AM

===
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is also another stash of plans at the Swedish National Marilime Museum from a Swedish designer whose name escapes me at the moment.
---------------------------------------------------------------

My. Exceedingly pretty boat there.

As far as "the definition" go with Warington Baden-Powell. He's a Brit and the origins of the type are British, and his letter to Forest & Stream was quite early.

Later the term was more generally accepted and further differentiated. Rozinante might be a "canoe yacht" per the larger boats designed by Strange. It ain't *really* a "canoe yawl" 'cept by inspiraiton, perhaps, and because LFH called it one.

In the late 1800s these guys were inventing boat types that had never existed before (eek! MacGregor invented the Primordial PWC) and it's not surprising that there are variant names and some blurriness on how it came about. WP Stephens is a good source, but he was corresponding with the English innovators and so had his material at second hand. It would also stand to reason that the "American variation" of the canoe yawl would have its own peculiarities as the idea diffused across the Large Ditch.

Bill Perkins

01-20-2004, 12:07 PM

Here's Albert Strange's own Cherub 2 , which he called his "most beloved boat ".

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/p058c37cde40b8d19973d752a352aa1d0/fc0d9dd1.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/p704ca624abd03646d38879011b964154/fc0d9d0b.jpg

The detail shows the low cabintop hinged forward so it can be raised and triangular side pieces fitted , producing a cabin with sitting headroom .Sort of an early popup cabin .

dadadata

01-22-2004, 08:37 AM

Ah, I looked over my *own* Sailing Canoe pages and Chris, there in B&W is the poop on EEL at the Ches Bay MM. You just have to get down to the Canoe Yawl biblio section to see it.

I've added a link to some fine pix of a Rushton sailing cnaoe Dan Miller has found and will be restoring, and also I'll be adding a couple things canoe-yawlish. One is Bolger's "Plywood Canoe Yawl" and the other is Atkin's EXCELSIOR.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/canoe_sailing.html

chrisk

01-22-2004, 10:45 AM

Thanks for the pointer, but you may want to point out that 2 of the three plans by C. Lowndes Johnson are for a modified version of Eel with a transom stern rather then the canoe stern.

Also, I noticed that the price for plans of Uffa Fox's "Wake" and "Brynhild" have gone up by 5 British pounds each from what you have listed. One of these days I'd like to own plans for each of those. Apparently, the longer I wait the more it's going to cost me!

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

Keith Wilson

01-22-2004, 12:57 PM

Cherub II is a lovely boat, like almost everything Albert Strange ever drew, but that centerboard makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. And I bet it was made of iron plate! :eek:

Dave K

01-31-2004, 11:21 PM

Just to add to the diversity, Phil Bolger has drawn a couple of canoe yawl plans - maybe his prettiest is an early design named "Quickstep" shown in his first book of designs. The "leeboards" detract from the appearance to my eyes, but keep her shoal draught; maybe a little deeper keel, or a centerboard that could be kept below the cabin sole might be an improvement. Of modern canoe yawls, my own favourite is Iain Oughtred's "Eun na Mara" (since I can never afford a Herrshoff "Rozinante"...)

Steve Paskey

01-31-2004, 11:36 PM

Chris: You ought to have another go at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum. Call 'em back and ask about their files for C. Lowndes Johnson, a Chesapeake Bay boat designer.

According to Craig O'Donnell's web site, Johnson borrowed the Eel drawings from W.P. Stevens and made tracings. They don't have the "plans" at the museum per se: what they have are Johnson's tracings -- 3 sheets total.

[ 01-31-2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

John Gearing

05-21-2004, 02:38 AM

decided to bump this back to the top to see if anyone else has anything to add to this interesting discussion....

Frank E. Price

05-22-2004, 04:21 PM

Wenda . Yowza!

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-22-2004, 04:52 PM

I'm tired of posting this; nobody ever pays any attention, but George Holmes'actual, original, "Eel" is sitting in Alan Staley's boatyard in Faversham, Kent, England.

mmd

05-22-2004, 05:36 PM

I'm paying attention, Andrew, but the odds are so slim of me being able to go to the yard to look closely at her are so slim that mrely thinking about it makes me depressed.

Venchka

05-22-2004, 05:40 PM

mmd,

I'm with you! Open another Keets, eh!

[ 05-22-2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

imported_Steven Bauer

05-22-2004, 05:44 PM

How about popping over there and snappin' a few piccies for us Andrew? :D

Steven

Meerkat

06-06-2004, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
I'm tired of posting this; nobody ever pays any attention, but George Holmes'actual, original, "Eel" is sitting in Alan Staley's boatyard in Faversham, Kent, England.Any plans to be in Faversham anytime soon Andrew? If so, don't forget your camera mate! ;)

Aramas

06-06-2004, 10:58 PM

A good photoshoot of Eel would be worthy of a centrefold in WB smile.gif

garland reese

06-06-2004, 11:10 PM

Hey ACB,
I notice every time you mention that......my truck won't make it to England. :D And I gotta trailer any boat I've got, so she'd likely have a rough life with me :rolleyes: :(

[ 06-06-2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

boatlover

06-07-2004, 12:02 PM

Verry nice, Tony !

Mention was made earlier in the thread of converting Atkins TEACH to a two masted rig, but no one said anything about doing the same for Atkins BEN design. 24'5" LOA is pushing the upper end of the genre, per Tonys comment above.

What about Atkins own canoe=yawl LADY JOAN ?

If the 25'5" LOA is too much, what about a little shrinking ? She would be a real looker !

Reworking the LJ design for lightweight plywood lapstrake would reduce the draft considerably, and adding a couple inches to the beam ought to keep stability close to the original.

Garden, in addition to EEL, has a 23'5" fin keel, canoe yawl that hasn't been mentioned, and a canoe ketch, as well
.

Regards,

Ed R

Shalfleet

06-07-2004, 03:57 PM

I don't think any Bolger designs have been mentioned on this thread so how about Nord Koster? http://www.boatbldr.com/gallery/photos/photo001.jpg http://www.boatbldr.com/gallery/photos/photo002.jpg
I think she is really pretty and I especially like the inboard rudder which shows off her stern to good effect....

[ 06-07-2004, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Shalfleet ]

Frank E. Price

06-07-2004, 06:15 PM

I think the idea of canoe yawl is getting stretched to the point of becoming meaningless here. I'm not a canoe yawl nut, but this thread is making me one.

As I understand it, MacGregor started "cruising" paddling tiny planked canoes about 1865. Those were canoes. He popularized the pasttime and it developed into puttering about in larger canoes, many decked or partly decked, and many with sails. These were mostly all double enders and were called canoe yawls. Whether the "canoe" part of the name came in because of their direct descent from canoes, or because of the canoe stern, or because of the hull form in general, they were mostly skinny, light boats in which one could recline for sleeping, under a tent or under a deck.

Then people started putting ballast in/on them, making them beamier, adding a cuddy and accommodations for two, however spartan. These were still called canoe yawls by some, canoe yachts by some. They were still skinny, round bottom, fairly light, shallow draft and low profile boats compared to other boats of their length. They were still capable of transportation by steamer, wagon or train, if no longer small enough to be manhandled over a portage.

All of these boats and their forerunners possessed a large amount of Victorian/Edwardian elegance and joie de vivre.

In 1892(?) Strange designed Wenda at 3,400 lb with 1,350 lb of outside ballast, over 2' draft and 6' beam, and sitting headroom in the cuddy. An absolutely outrageous design on paper and, I presume, in the flesh. But even at the time W.P. Stephens expressed concern that the term canoe yawl no longer fit such boats and that perhaps they should be called canoe yachts. See the "strange" thread. When Bolger redrew the boat for WB he called it a canoe yacht.

Then in 1947(?) LFH designed Rozinante at more than 6' beam and twice the displacement and draft of Wenda , deep keel, and called it a canoe yawl. Now we have people talking about V-bottom and flat bottom boats and calling them canoe yawls presumably because they are double enders with more than one mast. These boats and others mentioned in the diversification of this thread have nothing like the shallow draft, low profile or elegance of Wenda , which had already left the proper provenance of "canoe yawl" over a century ago.

Nothing against Himself, but I think LFH did a disservice to canoe yawl enthusiasts when he declared Rozinante a canoe yawl. I think we need to restore "canoe yawl" to a narrower field than the generic "small boat" that it seems to be transforming into here. There's nothing wrong with Teach, Economy Jane , and sure as hell nothing wrong with Rozinante , but I think it should be recognized they and most small boats do not fit into "canoe yawl," or even "canoe yacht." Rozinante is an acknowledged masterpiece in a class of her own. I was acquainted with a guy building one in Portland many years ago, and with most of the planking on it was agonizingly beautiful, the epitomy of grace.

I suggest we return to a recognized boat type called canoe yawl meaning a light, narrow, low profile, unballasted double ended round bottomed sailing/paddling boat with sleeping accommodation for one, if any. And the type known as canoe yacht to be reserved for skinny, round bottomed ballasted double enders, light for their length such as Cherub II, Wenda and Rozinante . Otherwise we are going to end up including everything under 30' of any displacement and hull form. Catamarans next?

Thanks for putting up with this rant. I have my lifeline hooked on and am standing by.

Frank

Shalfleet

06-07-2004, 10:30 PM

I love them all...canoes...yachts...round bottomed, ballasted whatever....how about a Nord Vinden, not sure who the designer is but Williams Clements makes a fine one:
http://www.boatbldr.com/gallery/photos/photo005.jpg

[ 06-07-2004, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Shalfleet ]

garland reese

06-07-2004, 10:42 PM

Thank you Frank. That was a very good posting on the subject. Tony, that bolger concept is very slick!

Actually, it was Garden's Eel that got me to thinking that canoe yawls are simply the most elegant of designs (I like the way you worded it Frank...). Along with Ian Oughtred's EuNaMara and of course Wenda. I have not seen the Strange books, but the drawings that I have seen of his do indeed, seem to define the category.

I had the privelege of boarding "Glory", a Garden Eel, built by Robert Albers.
http://members.purelyonline.com/user/robertalbers/photos/glory.jpg

She was absolutely beautiful. I still think that she'd be as much boat as I might ever need, but I would like a bit more, if I were ever able to start a build of such a dream. I had a bit of correspondence with Paul Fisher, regarding the possibility of melding his own Kittywake into something of a scaled Wenda-esque design, i.e., a beam more along the line of Wenda's, a slightly lowered cabin, rounded combing aft that sweeps up to form the cabin sides, blah blah...... I'd love the thought of a high peaked lug rigged main or gunter rigged, either one, with a slightly curved upper yard (yeah, I'm all about the curves and romance of these boats :rolleyes: :rolleyes: sickenin', ain't it...). As I live in an area where I need to trailer a boat to sailing destinations and keep it at home, I'd opt for maybe strip with veneer over, the last layer laid fore and aft, a good bit of brightwork throughout, some little oil lamps below, just a flat with some sort of integrated backrests for reclining, maybe a small shelf or two, someplace to stow a small chemical bucket for, well, you know....

Well, I could ramble on.....anyhow, Wenda, it seems, is a sort of boat that haunts you, in a good way......if only she'd fit in my garage :rolleyes: ;)

Yes, these boats do seem to conjure up some spirit of adventure and romance and simplicity that seems all too often to get lost today.

[ 06-08-2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

Aramas

06-08-2004, 12:23 AM

I'm a firm believer in including a proper head if at all possible. I enjoy the company of the sex formerly known as fairer, and they tend to be slavishly unenthusiastic about buckets. Personally I can't bear the stench of chemical heads.

Even quite small boats can have a private head under the forehatch. A little tent over it isn't difficult to arrange, and as long as the hatch is wide enough to acommodate shoulders, it can make for a happy ship and an enthusiastic First Sea Lady.

[ 06-08-2004, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

garland reese

06-08-2004, 07:19 AM

A real head would definitely be the way to "go" if it were reasonably possible to install one......., especially if you are to have a lady companion :D
Most of the boats I dream of building are so small I've never really given that possibility much thought.
Garland

Keith Wilson

06-08-2004, 10:20 AM

Tony, which Strange design is that gorgeous lug-rigged boat you posted? Is it in either of the published books? If not, where can one get the plans? VERY nice boat.

The Nord Vinden is an earlier and smaller version of the Nord Koster. Both are Phil Bolger's work.

Regarding Bolger's cartoon for a plywood canoe yawl - I think he tries way too hard to get that shape out of sheet plywood, and produces something that doesn't quite come off, although the size and proportions are, as you say, just about perfect. If he was going to make working drawings, I think that plywood lapstrake would be a lot better - just about as easy to build, much more freedom in hull shape, stays tight on a trailer, and much prettier. I'm not sure about that raised cabin roof. I know why he did it, but it might completely spoil her looks, and one of the main points of a canoe yawl is to improve the scenery wherever you go. Perhaps a pop-top with tent-like sides? One could argue that it's unecessarily complicated, and I couldn't disagree, but still . . .

[ 06-08-2004, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

Frank E. Price

06-08-2004, 07:17 PM

Thanks for not taking offense, gentlemen. I probably should have sat on that one for a couple days before posting it, but what the hell.

That Nord Vinden is a beautiful boat, and of course Garden's Eel is a sweet boat.

You're right, Tony, that it doesn't really matter where the lines are drawn. Language is generally determined by usage, not the other way 'round, but . . .

Canoe yawl used to mean something very specific; now it doesn't. The term has been diluted by including boats that do not fit the original parameters, whatever exactly they were -- and even the writers of the 19th century saw the meaning changing right from the get go. So although I wish we could wave the wand and make it so, I realize we won't return to that definition. The enthusiasts of the old boats will remain faithful, and the advocates of more practical boats will enjoy their canoe yawls. But it will be interesting to see how far we stretch it.

Bolger's plywood version of a homebuilder's canoe yawl is very interesting and would be great fun to have. The plywood Bolger boat in that size range I think of building (I have a set of plans) is the ply Chebacco boat. It would be a very practical boat, in spite of an apparent necessity for modifications sufficient to eliminate some on deck water traps. By no stretch a canoe yawl or any version of one, of course. But I have sworn off plywood, at least for awhile.

One of the cruxes, I think, in this discussion of modern vs. original canoe yawls, is that the old boats were produced by professionals for amateur boatmen, while many of the modern designs, Bolger's in particular, include amateur building as a primary determining factor. That accounts for most if not all the obvious differences between the old boats and Tony's offering.

To begin with, the amateur market seems fixated on plywood construction, as I was when I built my first few skiffs. And if you're designing for panel construction you design for hard chines, with predictable results. They're good boats, usually, but they are plywood versions of something they qualify to the extent that they make it something else. In my lexicon they are plywood versions of canoe yawls for amateur constuction. Canoe yawls, unqualified, are something else.

Whew! I have to get off this stump. Let's face it. Boats of all sizes and types are fascinating, and surely no-one's pleasure would be diminished if their light, narrow double ended paddle-sail boat was not a genuine canoe yawl. My own dreams include a series of boats I'd like to build and use. My ultimate is to build Chapelle's Pinky No. 1, as drawn. It's round bottomed, double ended, schooner rigged, 40+' feet long and 20 tons, no engine. Are we going somewhere that will eventually include it in canoe yawls?

Frank

Meerkat

06-08-2004, 08:16 PM

Just noticed something on canoe yawls at Dragonfly Canoe Works. (http://www.dragonflycanoe.com)

They're republishing Canoeing With Sail and Paddle (http://www.dragonflycanoe.com/hayward/) by J.D. Haward from 1893. Chapters 1-8 are available in PDF online. Two are on canoe yawls.
http://www.dragonflycanoe.com/hayward/cover.jpg

[ 06-08-2004, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Meerkat

06-08-2004, 08:31 PM

Plywood doesn't have to look that bad... ;)
http://www.iotadesign.freeserve.co.uk/assets/images/closupdk.jpg
http://www.iotadesign.freeserve.co.uk/assets/images/ywglenned2.jpg
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Lilliep1.jpg
Lillie (http://www.selway-fisher.com/DoubleEs.htm#LILLIE)

Dan Miller

06-08-2004, 08:32 PM

Boy, come here to throw another log on the fire, and Meerkat beats me to the punch! Anyways, I've been slowly turning J.D. Hayward's 1893 text entitled simply "Canoeing" into an ebook. It's in PDF format, and apologies for the file sizes, but it sure beat the heck out of running it though the OCR, proofreading, and htmlizing it...! A chapter on canoe yawls (in two parts) is included; shows even back then there was debate about what exactly was a canoe yawl.

J.D. Hayward's "Canoeing" (1893) (http://dragonflycanoe.com/hayward/)

Cheers,
Dan Miller
Dragonfly Canoe Works

[ 06-08-2004, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Dan Miller ]

Meerkat

06-08-2004, 08:46 PM

:eek: I didn't know you hung out here Dan! I saw your post earlier today on yahoo sailing canoes and I knew this thread was running, so... ;)

Keith Wilson

06-08-2004, 09:53 PM

OK, here ya go - this is a sheet-plywood Chebacco. Yawl but not canoe. There are several different kinds; two lengths, cold molded, sheet ply, lapstrake ply, strip planked . . . I like 'em all except for the one with the tall cabin. Here's the site for everything about Chebacco boats. (http://www.chebacco.com/)

http://www.chebacco.com/articles/chebacco2.1/article_files/image002.gif

[ 06-08-2004, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

Aramas

06-08-2004, 10:13 PM

Tony - There's not room for much of anything in that Bolger design, and truth be told I don't like it much. Imo it would be as ugly as a hat full of proverbials, in the flesh. If one spends enough hours doing 3D models one tends to get a feel for what a 2D drawing would look like in 3D - in this case, blech!

I have a lot of respect for Phil Bolger's work, but imo single-chine ply is better utilized in his 'instant boat' sharpies. Since I'm tired and grumpy I'll do a blow-by-blow "what I hate about..." on it smile.gif

Hard chines (doh)
Too much overhang in both ends making for a much smaller boat than it seems.
Flaccid bow and stern profiles.
Silly cabin top to make up for narrow beam down low (because of the deadrise single-chine hullform) and a deep centreboard trunk.
Ends too fine at the deck and a fat belly with a sharp turn, again due to the limitations of the single chine hullform - presumedly resulting in the diamond shaped waterplane that was briefly fashionable in IOR racers of the '70's.
Pointy cabin front. Every boat I've ever seen that uses that particular affectation has looked silly, with the exception of Rozinante, and even then, only from the bow quarter.

To give an idea of my preferred aesthetic in 19' 6" canoe yawls, here's one I prepared earlier smile.gif
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid108/p685b0af669e73e7a8b6359e93a5907f8/f9481c82.jpg
She's probably twice the displacement of Bolger's origami version, but otherwise of similar dimensions - initally inspired by Holmes' Eel. Interior is much like Rozinante sans the mast through the bunk. And there's room for a head under (through?) the forehatch..sorta... smile.gif

And since I'm also feeling self indulgent, here's another view :rolleyes:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid120/pd471c9a33cab3b76a215a6590fa6f6b7/f8586bc9.jpg
The grey section along the bottom is the lead.

[ 06-08-2004, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

Shalfleet

06-08-2004, 11:49 PM

So based on all these ideas, which design best meets the needs of the person that started this thread? As a reminder, this is what Racocas said:
"Canoe yawl, 18'LOA, beam about 5', shoal draft with centerboard for easy beaching, decked with crawl space forward for sleeping, single cockpit 6' or 7' long, either yawl or cutter rigged (preferably both options available) with gaff main and lug mizzen (also with other options), oarlocks, yoke type tiller arraignment, easily constructed of lapstrake plywood, maybe a cuddy cabin version."
My own needs are similar, although I would prefer a 16 footer, and a sliding seat. The closest I have found is Welsford's Walkabout, although not a canoe yawl she is a sailer and a rower, and meets most of Rancocas' needs. The Selway-Fisher Casco Bay 16 is also close, although specified for strip building. I think a slightly scaled up Nord Vinden would be perfect as she has traditional looks and the right proportions. I wonder if Mr Bolger would be willing to draw one up? His work redrawing the Wenda plans surely qualifies him for this type of work.

[ 06-08-2004, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Shalfleet ]

Aramas

06-09-2004, 02:29 AM

Hey, I did say I was tired and grumpy smile.gif

As you say, it's all a matter of taste. Wouldn't life be dull if everyone, confronted with the same requirements, came up with the same solution?

mmd

06-09-2004, 01:36 PM

Keep talking it up, guys; it's spreading good Karma! I just recieved a commission to design an 18-ft double-ended sloop-rigged day-sailer. Sadly, it is destined for a limited production run in hand-laid "other stuff", but it has the bones to be built in strip or lapstrake wood.

Start talking about small cruising schooners, willya? 'Specially the Tancook schooner type. I want a commission to do one of those boats, too! ;)

garland reese

06-09-2004, 06:12 PM

Regarding "Glory", the Garden Eel that Mr. Alber built. It was his personal boat, until some fella inquired about buying it. Mr. Albers told me that when asked about price, he gave the guy something that he thought surely would be too much, but the man took him up on it. So I suppose Glory is in the hands of another, and maybe not even any longer in the water.........

....I'd love to commission one of these canoe yachts someday.....say 'bout 20 foot over the deck.....someday :rolleyes:
Garland

Aramas

06-10-2004, 12:43 AM

A question for the committed dry-sailers out there - what's a realistic maximum towing weight for a boat? I've heard that there are some newish towing laws in the UK that rule out towing anything substantial - does that apply to the EU in general?

And what are the inner dimensions of a 20' shipping container?

Shalfleet

06-10-2004, 09:28 AM

Just got a note back from Bill Clements. The Nord Vinden was built from a design in the book "Sail and Oar" by John Leather. The design name is "Ethel", designed by George Holmes in 1888 so perhaps she might qualify as a true canoe yawl, even though planked with ply. Seems like we have come full circle here which is cool! We just need 16ft and 18ft versions to make Rancocas and I very happy! Paul Fisher's design was also based on Ethel so I must take another look at her.

Perhaps mmd's design in the works will hit the mark......I would love to see an early sketch of of the wooden version!

[ 06-10-2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Shalfleet ]

garland reese

06-10-2004, 10:23 AM

The lines for George Holmes' Ethel are shown in the "e" book that was mentioned by Craig O'Donnel. That would be a very nice little boat for exploring under sail and paddle....
I like Paul Fisher's Casco Bay 16 footer, with that nice curved yard. :cool:

Nhmmmmm???..., maybe one of each. A canoe yawl, and a canoe yacht :D ;) :rolleyes:

Aramas

06-10-2004, 11:33 AM

Holmes did at least four very different versions of Ethel, all of which were the same size and arrangement, but with radically different lines.

Meerkat

06-10-2004, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by Shalfleet:
Paul Fisher's design was also based on Ethel so I must take another look at her.Yes, Paul Fisher's design is based on "Ethel", but don't be mislead by the pictures - the boat, as built and photographed, differs from the plans offered by S-F, according to the builder. See:
Sail - Lillie (http://www.iotadesign.freeserve.co.uk/html/sail_-_lillie.html)

Meerkat

06-10-2004, 02:10 PM

A new canoe yawl being developed: Work in Progress (http://www.iotadesign.freeserve.co.uk/html/design_-_work_in_progress.html)!

Frank E. Price

06-12-2004, 03:04 PM

Man, you guys are steamin' right along!

How about this: Canoes are for paddling with maybe a little reaching/running under bitty sails, therefore beam likely to be very narrow -- probably not much more than 30". Canoe yawls are for paddling/rowing and sailing, about equally -- therefore are beamier, say up to about 4 1/2'-5'; and are likely to have some ballast, probably removable. Canoe yachts are bigger all around, beam up to 6 1/2' or so, with permanent ballast, and are primarily sail boats with provision for rowing/sculling, and have accommodations for two and even a little room in the still very spartan cabin for somewhat more than a sleeping platform. Construction deviations should be noted as a modifier in the type name. Sterns other than canoe make a boat something other than "canoe" anything. The rig type is not relevant. Neither is the type of facility used for a head. What do you guys think?

Thanks for the Chebacco link, Keith. I mentioned the design only as a reaction to chine/plywood construction in general. It's certainly not a "canoe" anything. But I think it is a very handsome and practical boat given its construction. Plywood lapstrake is another matter entirely.

This is good stuff!

Frank

[ 06-12-2004, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Frank E. Price ]

garland reese

06-13-2004, 11:27 PM

Hey Frank,

Here is an interesting article about an Eel (of the "Garden variety")that was built in Oregon and sailed to Alaska. Schooner Creek Boatworks built some 15 Eels between "77 and "87
web page (http://www.schoonercreek.com/traditional_sail/Center_For_Wooden_Boats_1984.pdf)

Dan Miller

06-15-2004, 08:13 AM

This often means we need a centreboard, but how do we avoid having the case eat up all the internal space Radix had the solution a little more than a hundred years ago... Their fan centerboard fits into a trunk only 4" high, which would include the depth of keel/keelson (so the actual trunk may only be a couple inches)...

Having fun,
Dan

Dan Miller

06-15-2004, 09:15 PM

Not sure what the biggest boats Radix boards were used in, but they are shown in 20'x42" St. Lawrence River skiffs. As well, Rushton put Radix No. 3 boards in 20 and 21' craft flying 139 sqft of sail. They do have reasonably lateral stiffness it appears, judging from the couple of examples I own. Still they are not nearly as stiff as a solid plate, and they will have more drag as well, due to the telescoping plates. If you study the sailing canoe literature, you will see that that the true racing machines moved to solid centerboards. Basically, it is a trade-off between optimum sailing under harder conditions, and saving cockpit space for cruising. There is the possibility they will jam up with sand etc.

Bob Lavertue builds a "modern" version of the Radix board under the Springfield Fan Centerboard Co. banner. His boards are 4 sleeves, as opposed to the originals 7, and as I recall, requires a 7" trunk.

The boards are hard to describe in words (you are welcome to visit in New York to inspect firsthand ;) ) but basically the tolerances are pretty close, there are several studs along the length of each sleeve, and the trailing end has a stiff spacer that has a "hook and catch" to prevent the sleeve from dropping out of its mate. In addition you have a thicker bronze actuator handle running down the center of the board that adds stiffness as well.

Cheers,
Dan

Steve Paskey

06-15-2004, 09:39 PM

If anyone's interested, the Springfield Fan Centerboard Company is at 20 Treetop Avenue, Springfield, MA 01118 (phone 413-783-5589). The company is a regular advertiser in the back of MAIB. I have no idea what the boards cost.

[ 06-15-2004, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

Meerkat

06-16-2004, 03:00 AM

Tony; One good solution to the centerboard trunk eating up the middle of the cabin sole are bilgeboards. Perhaps not exactly in the tradition of canoe yawls, but it seems like a practical solution that few people are likely to notice unless they swim under the boat! I think the payback in accomodation comfort more than offsets the deviation from traditionalism.

Maybe it's pushing it a little, but that makes Oughtred's "Eun Mara" almost a canoe yawl smile.gif

I also think that Welsford's "Neaan" is going to have a lot of the necessary atmosphere. Of course, at 26' and with standing headroom, perhaps it's lacking in spartanness ;)

htom

06-16-2004, 07:17 PM

One could claim that leeboards are even more traditional than centerboards ... ;)

Shalfleet

06-16-2004, 10:47 PM

John Welsford's solution with Walkabout is an offset daggerboard which is a nice compromise for a smaller boat. Does not take up much room and leaves a nice open space for sleeping.

Venchka

06-18-2004, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by TonyH:
Hi Meerkat

Bilgeboards are an interesting case. I agree that they are an entirely practical solution to the problem, and they even have some extra benefits, like levelling the boat when dried out. despite this, they seem to be one of those ideas that folks either like or don't. Personally, they don't appeal, even though I admit their utility. I guess I'm too much of a traditionalist for my own good :rolleyes: . I have the same problem with cruising catamarans - any objective assessment would put them streets ahead of monohulls as cruising boats for coastal tropical waters (eg. the Great Barrier Reef area in Australia) but I just can't find it in my heart to love them.

FWIW, I would say that Oughtred's EunNaMara is a canoe yawl (or canoe yacht, depending on your definition :D ). I don't know Welsford's Neaan - do you have a link?What's not to like about Iain's solution for Eun Mara? Suggested by the original client to free up the cabin. These are fully retractable boards. The cases form the bunk fronts. Entirely out of site.

Cheers!

Wayne
Slowly roasting in the Swamp.

Meerkat

06-18-2004, 03:03 PM

Please wipe up drool after... ;)
http://www.dhylanboats.com/dhbnewlb.html

Aramas

06-18-2004, 10:59 PM

Gutsy move, modifying LFH's Rozinante smile.gif

Isn't it funny how most photos of Rozinante are from the bow quarter? tongue.gif

mmd

06-19-2004, 01:08 AM

Izzat our Doug Hylan?

Aramas

06-21-2004, 12:01 AM

I agree with you there Tony. Euan Mara has that fussy 19th century style redolent of a Victorian gentleman's drawing room. It's a good look, and quite suited to the type, but I find it too picturesque for my tastes. Most of the original canoe yawls had a simple elegance that set them apart from their contemporaries.

Rather than look at her as being too roomy to qualify as a canoe yawl, I prefer to look at it as being a more modern rendition of an older type. She's very well done, imo.

Barrett Faneuf

06-21-2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by TonyH:
... I don't know Welsford's Neaan - do you have a link?Meerkat is writing "Nighean" as "Neaan" because that's how I firmly remind him that it's pronounced.

Nighean is the 26' Gaff yawl trailer-cruiser John Welsford is drawing for me. I do NOT have any "nice" pictures yet, here is a photo-of-a-drawing from my web site (https://home.comcast.net/~b.faneuf/nigheanhome.html) .

She falls well outside this thread's definition of a "canoe yawl", for sure.

https://home.comcast.net/~b.faneuf/images/nigheanimages/draft_small.jpg

garland reese

06-21-2004, 07:56 PM

I've often pondered the thought of having a cabin drawn up (may need some other tweaks too......change one thing and it affects another, etc, etc..) for his 6M Whaler. That, I think would make a nice canoe yacht. That will be a heck of a trailer sailer Barrett. How much will that design weigh on the trailer and ready to go? Are you intending to trailer it? .......Nice looking design. :cool:

[ 06-21-2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

Paul Pless

06-21-2004, 08:41 PM

As found in the newest issue of WoodenBoat:

web page (http://www.albertstrange.org)

Be sure you go to the membership link and click on the issue of Jib and Mizzen to see the first issue in .pdf format.

Venchka

06-21-2004, 09:03 PM

Barrett Faneuf

06-22-2004, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by garland reese:
I've often pondered the thought of having a cabin drawn up (may need some other tweaks too......change one thing and it affects another, etc, etc..) for his 6M Whaler. That, I think would make a nice canoe yacht. That will be a heck of a trailer sailer Barrett. How much will that design weigh on the trailer and ready to go? Are you intending to trailer it? .......Nice looking design. :cool: Actually John started from the 6m whaler for Nighean :D . She's slated to weigh 4500 lbs on the trailer, absolutely designed for frequent trailer-cruisig, lives on the trailer, dry sailing all the time, blue water capable, standing headroom in the cabin, real heads compartment, berths 4 (double forward + 2 quarterberths). Diesel saildrive aux. power.

I'm going to track her building at my website (https://home.comcast.net/~b.faneuf/nigheanhome.html)

blacksea

06-29-2004, 10:46 AM

Does anyone have information about Weston Farmers Jenny Wren and her sea-going abilities?
Is this boat seaworthy enough, for offshore cruising in Black sea and Mediterranean? If not, what boat of same length and similar concept can you suggest? (Maybe not canoe yawl, but not modern racing hull; gaff, gunter or lug rig; attractive view).

Venchka

06-29-2004, 11:56 AM

As usual, GOOGLE knows:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/jennywren/lines400.gif

Jenny Wren plans:

Jenny Wren PLans (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/jennywren/index.htm)

That's a lot of boat to only be 21'-8" LOA.

Wayne

blacksea

06-29-2004, 12:03 PM

Thank you for replay
I've seen this plans and that's why I'm asking
I wander, if anyone knous bit more about this boat, and it's ability of sailing offshore

Venchka

06-29-2004, 12:06 PM

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/jennywren/const300.gif

Here's a good look at her lines. I don't know much, but it looks to me like this would be a stout vessel. But we don't know a lot about the conditions where you would be sailing.

Wayne
Always wondered what sailing in the Caspian Sea would be like in the Swamp. :D

Keith Wilson

06-29-2004, 12:31 PM

More Jenny Wren. Lovely boat; you can get plans here. (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/jennywren/) Actually, she was originally designed by Charles Davis around 1910 if I remember correctly, and redrawn and construction details worked out by Weston Farmer many years later. Looks good for any reasonable weather to me, but I'm scarcely an expert. I'd want seats in the cockpit; sitting in a puddle is unpleasant, and my knees aren't what they used to be.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/jennywren/hull600.gif

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/jennywren/biglines.gif

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/jennywren/const800.gif

[ 06-29-2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

JimConlin

07-01-2004, 10:58 PM

There's a very-much-in-love writeup about Jenny Wren in Boat Design Quarterly #3 (More at http://www.woodenboat.com/bdq.htm).

I, being doubly in love, think that aside from Jenny Wren and Albert Strange's Wenda, the rest of those designers were wasting their time. This opinion might change.

Jim

[ 07-04-2004, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: JimConlin ]

Meerkat

07-06-2004, 01:00 AM

Saw a nice canoe yawl based on the old Drascombe "Peterboat" plans that WB used to sell at the Wooden Boat Festival today.

Frank E. Price

07-27-2004, 08:59 PM

There is no bad angle for looking at a Rozinante .

Frank

Dave K

07-28-2004, 07:14 PM

Phil Bolger has done a few canoe yawls (or yachts) and his "Quickstep" in the first book of plans he put out is lovely. A recent issue of "Classic Boat" had a rather interesting little V-bottom canoe yawl type, an entry in one of their design contests. And nobody has mentioned Jay Benford's "Iota" a heavy little 18 footer that is salty enough to rust your spectacles (if you wear them). Bolger also drew up a preliminary study for a 28 footer, very evocative of Herreshoff's "Rozinante" but weighing about as much as that lady's ballast keel as a study shown some years ago in "Messing About in Boats"...pity nobody has finished that project and built her.

Meerkat

07-28-2004, 08:13 PM

Benford is notorious for designing boats so salty they'll rust your eyeballs out, spectacles or no!

boatlover

08-03-2004, 09:53 PM

Tony H:

The vee-bottom canoe yawl type is in the March, 2000 issue of Classic Boat, pages 112 & 113.

Just after the two pages of Part 2 on the description of a Port Isaac lugger (yawl.)

Which is some 50 pages after Part 2 of Ian O's build of a faering.

Good issue !

Regards,

Ed R

Bill Perkins

08-03-2004, 11:10 PM

Thanks Vencha and Kieth for the pics of Jenny Wren , a lovely boat .Could another inch of clearance be added between main boom and mizzen mast ? Has the design been built ?

JimD

08-09-2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by chrisk:

http://www.atkinboatplans.com

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)I was just looking at 'Economy Jane', at this Atkin link, a flat sided, hard chined, deep v bottomed double ender with plans for a concrete ballast keel. This seems like such a practical type of design for quick, inexpensive home building. I wonder why there aren't more of them around. Economy Jane has about 4.5 feet headroom and a slightly stretched, deeper version ought to come up with close to six feet. I sure wish one of the current well known plywood designs such as Oughtred's Grey Seal or Welsford's Penguin were just a bit bigger to allow for the extra headroom in a pocket cruiser in the 22 to 25 foot length.

chrisk

08-09-2004, 06:25 PM

You may also want to check out Atkin's "Lady Joan" and "Barrie" in the 22' - 30' section. The synopsis on "Barrie" claims it can take "Lady Joan's" Yawl rig. It's not a gaff yawl, but it is a yawl. The synopsis on "Barrie" also claims 5' 2" of headroom
at the sliding hatch. It's not 6', but it's getting there!

Chris Kottaridis (chrisk@quietwind.net)

[ 08-09-2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: chrisk ]

JimD

08-09-2004, 08:00 PM

It's not 6', but it's getting there!
Ok, sorry for the side bar conversation on the canoe yawl thread but its high time somebody designed me a plywood multi-chine under twenty five feet long with standing headroom! Two pointy ends would do just fine but transoms are nice, too, and could be a couple or three feet shorter. :D Actually, John Welsford generously and freely offered me scantling advice to modify another design to meet my criteria but it would still mean major reworking on my part and I don't think I'm up to it. So I wait patiently for my ship to come in...

Dave K

08-09-2004, 09:08 PM

Sorry to be late getting back but I see someone found the Classic Boat issue. Bolger's 28 footer canoe yawl, "Rozinante" derivative, is not the flat-bottomed "Burgundy" design but round-bilged (without any reverse curve near the keel). She weighs something close to what the "Rozinante's" ballast keel weighs, is an inch or two beamier (6'7") but with less draught (3'0"), has a cat yawl (or ketch) rig and is quite attractive. It was shown in MAIB several years ago (not sure which issue but it is on page 28). Sail area is 314 sq. ft. Another Bolger canoe yawl design, also shown in MAIB (and again I do not know which issue) is 25'6" x 7'5" x 3'0" with gaff main & topsail in a yawl configuration. Quite a chunk of boat, but very attractive.

Meerkat

08-09-2004, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by JimD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It's not 6', but it's getting there!
Ok, sorry for the side bar conversation on the canoe yawl thread but its high time somebody designed me a plywood multi-chine under twenty five feet long with standing headroom! Two pointy ends would do just fine but transoms are nice, too, and could be a couple or three feet shorter. :D Actually, John Welsford generously and freely offered me scantling advice to modify another design to meet my criteria but it would still mean major reworking on my part and I don't think I'm up to it. So I wait patiently for my ship to come in...</font>[/QUOTE]What about Welsford's new Neegan design (sp?) - the one he's doing for Barrett Faneuf? 26' x 8' x 2' or so. C/B, double-ender, trailerable.

JimD

08-09-2004, 10:04 PM

What about Welsford's new Neegan design (sp?) - the one he's doing for Barrett Faneuf? 26' x 8' x 2' or so. C/B, double-ender, trailerable. I've been keeping an eye out for Neegan's (sp?) progress. I seem to recall Barrett is rather on the tall side and had special requirements for well over 6' headroom. So its almost a bit bigger than I'd need.

JimD

08-16-2004, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by TonyH:

...
JimD - Unfortunately, William Atkin didn't place a lot of emphasis on standing headroom in his smaller boats - quite the opposite in fact. This from his design commentary on "Jabberwock", a charming 26 foot double ender sloop - "With shallow draft it is impossible to get full headroom in a boat this size; don't attempt it. You will have only a high-sided, hard handling boat, ugly to look at and an indifferent sailer". You've got to love these crusty opinionated guys from the days of yore - they make the modern day WB forumites look like milquetoasts in comparison!

Cheers

TonyRight you are, Tony, but for example one of my favourite pocket cruiser designs of all time is Lyle Hess's Falmouth 22, both a sweet and salty 22 foot cutter with plenty of ballast and headroom and a proven off shore sailer. Hardly a canoe, though, so I'll quite whining on this thread now.

JimD

08-17-2004, 10:50 AM

A quick google and I couldn't come up with anything on Bolger's Blueberry, so if you hear of anything...

MJC

12-11-2004, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by garland reese:
Or you might consider having the Casco Bay lengthened to 18 feet and drawn/spec'd up for ply lapstrake (Selway-Fisher commonly does modifications for various types of construction)....... I love the curved spars on this rig.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cascod1.gif

The Casco Bay 16 was designed for Maurice Byrne of the Boatyard Upstairs for a Swiss client who wanted a fast, easily handled canoe yawl for use on his home lakes. We have developed an efficient and stable hull form with slight influence from the Casco Bay Peapods. We have kept the waterline length as high as possible with short overhangs at each end, but still retained a sweet looking hull with an attractive sheer line and well cambered decks. Construction is for strip planking (veneered or simply glass sheathed). She has an inboard rudder which hinges up into a box when she comes ashore and her elegant lug yawl rig can be altered by removing the mizzen and stepping the main further aft. the drawings show details for curved spars but these could be straight. LOD 16'1" (4.9m); Beam 4'8" (1.43m); draft 7" and 3'7" (.19m and 1.12m); Sail Area 140 sq.ft (13 sq.m); Approx. weight (excl. spars) 309 lbs (140 kg).

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cascop1.jpgThought I'd post a new picture of this little beauty.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cascop2.jpg

Anybody know anymore about her? Has only one been built?

[ 12-11-2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: MJC ]

Stephen Hutchins

12-11-2004, 12:49 PM

MJC
wow.... is there any lines drawing available for that 16 footer?

slacker

12-11-2004, 03:54 PM

It's really quite rude to bump this thread back to the forefront with the holidays at hand. Sleepless nights, constant day-dreaming and a general lack of focus on anything non-canoe yawl related seem to have an ill effect on my family life. Judging from the length of this discussion, I'd say that I'm not alone. A good argument could be made for a 12 step program ...

Fenger's Yakaboo (with a rudder) comes pretty close for me! If money grew on trees, I'd also HAVE TO HAVE an elegant Canoe Yacht along the lines of Wenda.
I'm off to find a roll of vellum
smile.gif

Darren

MJC

12-13-2004, 09:19 AM

It's really quite rude to bump this thread back to the forefront with the holidays at hand. Sleepless nights, constant day-dreaming and a general lack of focus on anything non-canoe yawl related seem to have an ill effect...
wow....is there any lines drawing available for that 16 footer? Darren, I refuse to apologize for my continued rudeness, because not to answer Stephen would be intolerably rude.

Stephen: It's the 16' Casco Bay Yawl from Selway-Fisher. Scroll way down, but take your time. (http://www.selway-fisher.com/DoubleEs.htm)

Stephen Hutchins

01-30-2005, 04:37 PM

Ok, 2nd try for a photo:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2133751217&idx=1

[ 01-30-2005, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Hutchins ]

imported_Steven Bauer

01-30-2005, 06:52 PM

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid156/pf7446c63ea2e89f95bd164ab27fc2dcb/f54965e0.jpg

Stephen Hutchins

01-30-2005, 07:43 PM

Thanks, Steven -Still haven't learned to do that.

PVanderwaart

02-01-2005, 03:45 PM

You haven't exhausted the Bolger boats yet. There are two smaller boats on the Tancook Whaler model, both sloops, but double-ended. And there is the Humber yawl Windfola, though John Welsford reports that the original is very slow upwind.

Dick Wynne

03-07-2007, 07:49 AM

Hi folks

I hope you all don't mind, but this was one of my all-time favourite threads, and having gone to the trouble of trawling through the backpages to find it, I thought I'd bump it up to the top and see whether there's still any canoe yawl enthusiasts out there.

Enjoy!

Bump away Tony,

George Holmes original EEL, built 1896 or so, as reported before by ACB, sits undercover ashore at Alan Staley's yard in Faversham, Kent, UK. +44 1795 530668 Her owner was an Englishmen working in NYC who bought her some 15-20 years ago and had much work done on her by Alan. Around late 2001 he disappeared, possible deceased (but not in 9/11 as Alan has later correspondence from him.) Yard bills went unpaid. At last, Alan has obtained legal dispensation to sell her and recover his costs. She is in fine fettle except for one outstanding task: a previous owner welded on the bolts which pass right through her iron keel at alternating angles, making it impossible to remove easily, which is now necessary because the bolts rusted and leak badly. She even has new sails (about 10 years old but unused). It's great that she is still around after 110 years and sailable with a little more attention. At least one contact of mine is seriously interested so she may be spoken for by now...

chrisk

03-07-2007, 11:02 AM

Well, I am always keeping my eye open for canoe yawls.

Great to hear about George Holmes Eel, maybe we could actually get some pictures?

I have also found what would probably more of a canoe yacht then a canoe yawl by Ted Brewer in Dave Gerr's "Pocket Cruisers for the Backyard Builder". It's flat bottomed plywood and strip planked topsides like Elver. However, it's 26'4" in length, beam 8' and a draft of 2' with the board up and 6' 3" with the board down. It has a shallow keel on the outside of the hull and so there is no centerboard trunk in the cabin. I don't think one has ever been built. I have the plans for her. The building method seems simple enough for me to handle in a reasonable time frame. At the moment I don't have the space or the funds (my eldest decided he wanted to go to college afterall and so that's where the money is going now). But someday I may well give this one a shot:

http://www.quietwind.net/imgs/Windswept-pg1.jpg

http://www.quietwind.net/imgs/Windswept-pg2.jpg

There is also a canoe yawl called Madrigal by Dave Gerr with a sloop rig in the same book. I don't have a scan, but here are the stats:

LOA: 19' 2"
LWL: 17' 8"
Beam: 6' 10 "
Draft: 2' 2" (CB up)
4' 6" (CB down)
Sail Area: 248 sq ft
Disp: 3500 lbs
Construction: Round Bottom; wood-epoxy, lapstrake or strip-planked

Chris Kottaridis