Toppinglift Changes,,,,,,, Help?

[Ian G Wright]

If you have a moment you could help me by offering your opinion on my proposed changes to the topping lift arrangement on Patience, my Gaff rigged Vertue.
At the moment she has a single lift lead from the end of the boom to the mast above the peak halyards and then down to the deck in way of the starboard shrouds, terminating in a 4:1 tackle.
This system has been in use for twelve years and has worked reasonably well ‘though it does have some disadvantages.
I have to make sure that the gaff is on the correct side of the topping lift or setting the topsail, a jackyarder, becomes all but impossible .
I normally set the main on starboard tack which means that it must come down on starboard also or the sail and gaff bind on the lift.
I propose fitting the end of the lift with a snap shackle so that once the main is set it can be removed and set up in way of the port shrouds. Thus doing away with the tops’l problem.
The other half of my problem remains.
With a long boom, two feet outboard of the transom, passing the end of the ‘lift round to the other side would not be easy to say the least, so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If I have a snap shackle at each end of the ‘lift, and a second 4:1 tackle to port, I may be able to use either side according to choice.
What am I missing? There’s bound to be something.

IanW.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

We have got the same arrangement as you have.

Because the topsail always goes up on the same (starboard) side, and the topping lift is likewise always to starboard (due to always hoisting mainsail on starboard tack) I have not had the specific difficulty, but frankly my topsail is a swine anyway.

Personally, I would not use a snap shackle on a topping lift. I am pretty sure that the repeated jerking and snatching which the topping lift experiences will flog the snap open. I would prefer to use something like a Wichard hook, which tends to stay closed when being flogged about.

On his Bristol Channel pilot cutters, HW Tilman used twin wire lifts, well baggywrinkled, one each side, each going to a 4:1 purchase and ending in a hook at the outboard end of the boom. You changed over topping lifts each time you tacked. He did not carry both lifts attached simultaneously, which can cause problems with getting the gaff between them, as you know.

[Ed Burnett]

Oh goody! What a fun subject...

Topping lifts are freqently overlooked and rather important bits of gear. In my experience, all but the very smallest of gaffers benefits from twin topping lifts - the logic being that there is always a windward one so you can handle the main on either tack.

I would suggest a scheme as follows...

Attach the lifts to either side of the boom, perhaps 12" forward of the end of the gaff when it is stowed. This helps contain the gaff when lowering the main and means you don't have to thread the end between the lifts when hoisting.

The blocks aloft would usually hang on strops from the hounds. The strops are useful to reduce congestion in what is otherwise a potentially crowded area. Cheek blocks are one way to go (sometimes built into the hounds themselves), but with the fall that close to the mast there is potential for it getting caught inside the gaff jaws which can be a pain.

On a boat the size of yours, I would suggest a simple "tent guy" adjuster on the end of each lift. This would be a piece of Teak (or something like that), maybe 5" or 6" long with two holes in it. Splice a bullseye into the end of the lift, and thread the adjusting line through this, incorporating the adjuster as you go. This is a really neat and quick arrangement - tackles are needed on big boats but if you can save time in making adjustments life is a lot easier on the foredeck. I like to have the lifts outboard and usually have the upper block (or bullseye) running on the aft lower shroud to stop it clunking about.

I don't see much point in having this all detachable. Set the topsail inside it all and it should be o.k. As a matter of fact, the topping lift is very helpful as you can lie the topsail yard along the boom inside the lift to support it while you attach the sheet and halyard etc. This is also handy if you have to drop it in a hurry - the topping lift keeps it contained while you deal with other business.

In general, do what you can to minimise the stretch in all this gear. You want to be able to harden in the main sheet against the topping lifts to keep the boom quiet - the loads can be pretty big; imagine someone leaning on the boom to furl the sail with the boat lurching about.

I could go on forever but should probably stop. No doubt there will be plenty of other suggestions.

[NormMessinger]

Okay, let me tell you how it should be done....

(Ya thought for a second there I was really going to be presumptive, didn'tcha.)

But actually, Ian-on-the-Left once described a combination lazy jack, topping lift that seemes pretty slick. Maybe he will chime in.

But if you ever need any advise about pouring babbitt bearings in an Advanced Rumley threshing machine, I'm your man.

--Norm

[Ian G Wright]

Keep 'em coming guys,,,,,,, all the ideas I can get, thanks.

Norm,,,,
One piece con rods on a 1947 3T Triumph twin need new big end bearings,,,,, white metal poured, drilled, reamed and hand scraped, then the crank re assembled trued and balanced,,,,,, when you have a moment. Oh yes, and the spare dinghy you were going to send me hasn't arrived yet.

IanW ;)

[NormMessinger]

Patience:), master. It is in the dehydrater. As soon as it is light enough to mail I'll get it right out. Once you get it all you'll need to do is add water.

--Norm

[Dave Hadfield]

I just changed the topping lift on Drake's mizzen, going to lifts on either side of the boom acting as lazyjacks. Life became much easier -- no more wet sail dropping on the helmsman's head.

I don't need the mechanical advantage you will, but I had 2 spare blocks at the mizzen head, so I brought a line down from each one, port and starboard, terminating in thimbles, usually about 5ft above the boom. Through the thimbles I ran a bridle which passes under the boom in 2 places, acting of course as lifts and lazyjacks together. The bridle is prevented from creeping along the boom by simple eye-straps on anti-chafing plates (beaten copper). No reason why a tackle couldn't be made into the fall of each line. You might not need as much purchase, since you're lifting via a sling, really.

I don't know if this is any use to you at all, since you have a topsail and runners to deal with, but it was an improvement for me.

[Ian McColgin]

Ahoy Ian,

Saw your post on Biron Toss's site also and will watch with some interest for the diverse ideas. I share, by the way, the prejudice against snaps - they may open after a flogging and then that metal bit whipping about is just the thing to use for spontanious trepanning.

There are two approaches to toppinglift/lazy jacks I've used on gaff boats.

For something really big, like when we rigged Clearwater lo those many years ago, a pair of nice heavey cables down on either side of the boom with powerful tackle on the fall and the lazy jacks running vertically from them are nice. But that's the rig for a 1,000# boom.

A big question is whether you want the end of the boom firmly supported or not. I used to think this was very important and I still keep seperate lifts handy should I feel the need. For example, if you may want to reef, it's good to take the strain off the clew and the combined toppinglift/lazy jack I advocate won't do that very well.

The second issue is how far out you want the furthest part of the lift/jack. It's nice if you can make it far enough that there's not too much unsupported bunt hanging about, but you also want the thing rigged such that when you go to hoiste, the initial hauling on the peak that brings the gaff up to 60 degrees or more also gets the gaff's end past the lifts. If you can do that, the rest of the hoiste will go easily. If you can't, sometimes you have to watch the gaff as it goes up and now and then wait till it luffs between the lifts.

Now for the system. This has huge mechanical advantage because it's essentially like a spanish burton but spread all around in a deceptive fashion.

Let's imagine a boom about 25' long. I think we're in your size range here. It might be nice to have the sail secured at, moving out from the tack, 5', 10', 15' & 20'. At the three outer stations, the lift jack actually passes under the boom from one side to the other. You'll need a fairlead to keep it in place and some chafe gear on the boom to keep the lifts from wearing into the varnish. At the station 5' abaft the tack, you might like a cleat under the boom. All to be arranged later if you like the concept.

This system will work from cheek blocks on the mast say 20' up or so, but it's even better if you hang the blocks from the spreaders, perhaps 6" from the mast.

(I really did test this out having a friend draw the rig from the following. It should come clear.)

The first line, which if you draw this with me will be taking the major strain, goes from a convenient point in the air - 15' up perhaps - up through the block under the spreaders, down under the boom at that outermost (20') station, up to the other block under the spreaders and dangles down in the air.

I end these with an eye splice around a nice ss thimble. Harken, in their absurdly overpriced and overengineered lazy jacks that don't even take the strain I designed here, use nice pricey bullett blocks that also bang around and chafe the sail. This thing is a pully system of sorts but nothing moves very far and a little friction won't hurt at all.

Next line does much the same as the first, except it starts and ends in the air a little lower and goes under the boom at the 15' station.

The last line starts at the cleat 5' abaft the tack, up through the eye dangling from the second line, under the boom at 10', up the other side through the other eye and down to the cleat.

This is exactly the reverse of how many (the ubiquitous Haarken) contemporary lazy jacks are laid out. They are laid out with no thought to the actual mechanics of holding up the boom. Obviously you want the line carrying the most strain out the farthest and the line you adjust in nearest the tack, where you can always reach it.

Once adjusted, the lines should be nice and tight when the sail is down but loosen up enough to let the sail take it's shape when hoisted. The lines will be 'hand snug' on the weather side - no slapping about.

Like a double-ended main sheet, there can be a tendency for this rig to 'walk' a bit - for the hanging eyes to move up and down and loose that pleasing symetry. Easy to adjust when the sail is furled and the boom in its gallows or otherwise supported by something other than the jack/lift.

Rigging takes a modicum of common sense. I make new sets off a reel of line cutting and fitting as I go. The only part I need to do aloft is to run the line off the reel (on a stick twinged between lifelines and coach, or in a companionway or whatever) up through one block under a spreader, under the boom and through the other block.

Back on deck I splice an eye in the free end, tie a tag line to it, and pull till it's hanging where I want. I locate where I want the outer part of the lift'jack to go (20" in the example) and rig the fair lead.

(If you use completely closed fair leads, you have to plan more carefully than I like to bother.)

So, I fix my eye on where I want the other dangle to be and bring it to easy reach, easing the tag line. Actually, the visuals work out nicely if you just 'two block' that eye you made up and make the other splice in easy reach. Put a tag line on the second eye and run them both to even to see that you like it. Assuming you do, bring one eye down to the deck, pass the line from the reel through and sway up a bight, bringing down the other eye. Put the line through the other eye, even things up, and make like the first line.

Etc.

Questions will be tolerated . . .

G'luck.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ah, I need to make one point clear. The reason why my single topping lift goes to the end of the boom, as did Tilman's pair of lifts, without lazyjacks, is that the boom has an "Appledore pattern" (open worm drive) roller reefing gear on the inboard end.

I would not be without this bit of kit, any more than I would be without a rigid boom "gallows".

I think that Ed is right and the lifts should go clear of all the peak and throat halyard blocks cluttering up the masthead. Mine is on a nice long strop but I like the idea of hanging the lifts off the crosstrees, just as I like the idea of leading the fall up a shroud. Must look into that....

[Ian McColgin]

Ah, the worm turneth.

Many with these units like them. Personally I don't as it's impossible to rig lazy jacks, impossible to reef without putting the sail up first, and hard to get a nice set.

De gustebus non disputandem est.

[Ed Burnett]

The worm turneth indeed, wonderful system when it works well.... I think this is just about the only reason to have the lifts further aft than the end of the gaff - unless you have a really short gaff.

If you want lazy jacks you can just seize some bits of light line to hang vertically from the twin topping lifts. Thread one through between boom and sail and tie it on to its brother from the other side and there you go. This works well with Roller gears too (although you can't go between boom and sail), you just need the twin topping lifts to start with. Ian mentions this for big boats but I find it pretty handy with little ones too, you only need two or three of them and they can be easily de-rigged when you want to put the sail cover on.

Be careful hanging the lift blocks from the spreaders - the aft going load componant can be quite large and you don't want to twist the spreaders off the mast. On a small boat there isn't likely to be much holding them forward.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Many people (including Eric Hiscock - photo in "Cruising Under Sail") fit the worm above the boom. It should always be below it. The boom might "sky" in a gybe, and the inexorable consequence is a broken gooseneck if the worm is above. (Mine was thus broken, and re-welded, sometime in the Neolithic period, long before I picked it out of a skip....)

Right about the spreaders - cancel that idea. Back to long strops. The long strop and bolster is also the best solution to the throat halyard problem, rather than a crane, methinks.

If you are making long passages you must have twin lifts, and detach the lee one, or your sail will chafe to bits on it.

[John B]

We're rigged pretty well as discussed above. I can't concieve of handling our sail without lazy jacks. We're 2 handed most of the time.
Ours are just light line spliced into the toppers. Get them all set up and tie them off at the bottom to get the length right.
The toppers are right in concept for me but I have to upgrade the execution. I've tried a couple of different ways in experimenting with two topping lifts for the jacks but one tail to adjust. Gave it away and we are back to this now.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid29/p4a32d66fc9769c89702c8bd4aa3c4b42/fd588859.jpg
Pretty simple .One significant advance we made though, was to accomodate the topsail on the boom on chocks.The lazy jacks route through holes in the chocks and spread them apart another 3 or 4 in as well as captivate the topsail when down or coming down.Or going up , for that matter.
It works . it's good. We wouldn't run the topsail without it.
I don't know if you can make it out....
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid11/p19fa5c707d7644d81421f8ce992a227d/fe11c564.jpg

If I recall correctly,you don't like lazy jacks do you Ian?
I'd still recommend the twin topping lifts for the captivation factor( of the gaff and the topsail.)

[NormMessinger]

Whoa, John! I have not had the courage or energy to tackle the installation of the topsail for Prairie Islander. You've given me some ideas.

--Norm

[Ian G Wright]

Thanks folk, much food for thought.
The thread is printed and will be taken aboard Patience as a valuble aid to thought,,,, Ta.

IanW.

[Jon Agne]

I have two topping lifts on SURPRISE, a 25' Crosby catboat, as well as lazy jacks. The lifts are rigged to end of the 34' boom with a 2:1 purchase. It's not a problem getting the boom between the lifts, as I simply slack off the port lift, haul it down with a boat hook so that it is under the end of the gaff and hoist away. I believe the convenience of having a lift on the windward side far outweighs the extra hassle of having two strings.

As for the lazy jacks, yes, it's more difficult to reef and even furl, but when dropping 555 sq.ft. of canvas at the end of the day, they are priceless!