how to remove blade from old wooden plane

[jalmberg]

I scored a couple of WWII era wooden planes today at a garage sale. They have nice hardwood bodies with a wedge to hold the iron in. The blades are still really sharp and just a few small touches of rust on them.

Problem is, I doubt the wedges have been removed for 40 years... they don't even budge with hand pressure.

Is there a trick to removing the wedges from wooden planes? I've never owned one before, but they look pretty darn simple.

-- John

[Peerie Maa]

Tap it with a mallet on the top in front of the throat, that should jar the wedge and iron up on the rebound.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/peerie_maa/MISCwoodplanes1.jpg

[Peerie Maa]

You are going to want to know how to adjust them next aren't you?:D

[jalmberg]

You are going to want to know how to adjust them next aren't you?:D

You must have read my mind :-)

Well, tapping them didn't loosen the wedges... Looks like more drastic measures are called for. Here are pics...

http://www.identry.com/downloads/master/plane1.jpg

http://www.identry.com/downloads/master/plane2.jpg

http://www.identry.com/downloads/master/plane3.jpg

[Peerie Maa]

I have no experience with the German pattern smoother, but that nice closed tote bench plane will respond. Don't be frightened of it, give it a whack.
The smoother may respond the same way, the geometry is the same, I'm just wary of the horn. See if any one with experience of them turns up.

[jjdeal]

I have seen videos of folks tapping lightly with a small brass mallet on either side of the wedge. You might give that a try.

[SunshineBridge]

Hold the plane upsidedown in your hand, make sure you are holding the blade but not the wedge. Using a heavy wooden mallet strike the plane sharply and squarely underneath. The force from the strike will transfer to the wedge and loosen it.

That's what I'd do. You could use a nylon hammer if you prefer, done right no damage will be done.

On the larger plane you could insert a brass or hardwood strip up into the mouth from the bottom and strike the wedge in the slot visible in the centre. Done carefully this would work for sure.

[Peerie Maa]

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/peerie_maa/plane1.jpg

Tapping at "a" will set the blade for a deeper cut,
Tapping at "b" will set for a finer shaving, and if given enough welly will free the blade.
If the blade is not even, tap the side of the top of the iron to level it up.

[Peerie Maa]

On the larger plane you could insert a brass or hardwood strip up into the mouth from the bottom and strike the wedge in the slot visible in the centre. Done carefully this would work for sure.

Nooo!
You will damage the wedge. Trust me, I have wooden planes of all designs, my advice will work.
Silly question. You are holding it off the bench when you hit it aren't you?

BTW here is one I made earlier:D
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/peerie_maa/SparPlane.jpg

[john welsford]

I made the mistake of soaking a couple of my old wooden bodied planes in linseed oil with the blade and wedge still in, and of course left them in the "bath" for way too long ( months) . The objective was to swell the wood up to close some splits that were beginning to show when I picked them up in a car boot sale.
I got those wedges out in spite of being pretty solidly glued in by the well set linseed oil by making a wooden pad, putting it on the side of the wedge and very gently tapping it sideways with a dead blow hammer, then back and back and forth until it came free. The special hammer just happened to be near to hand and I figure that anything capable of a controlled blow would do the trick.
Take care to move it only a tiny bit each way, you can fracture the tangs on the lower end of the wedge if you try too hard.

John Welsford




I scored a couple of WWII era wooden planes today at a garage sale. They have nice hardwood bodies with a wedge to hold the iron in. The blades are still really sharp and just a few small touches of rust on them.

Problem is, I doubt the wedges have been removed for 40 years... they don't even budge with hand pressure.

Is there a trick to removing the wedges from wooden planes? I've never owned one before, but they look pretty darn simple.

-- John

[John Meachen]

I would go with the technique Nick refers to in post 8.A sharp tap on the back of the plane almost always works.

[jalmberg]

Nooo!
You will damage the wedge. Trust me, I have wooden planes of all designs, my advice will work.
Silly question. You are holding it off the bench when you hit it aren't you?


I am holding it off the bench, but whoever used them last pulled both blades back so they are not sticking out the bottom.

The only non-steel hammer I have is fairly light weight. It's not making anything happen.

Could I use a regular hammer and protect the plane with a piece of scrap wood? I.e., hit the scrap wood, which is in contact with the plane?

-- John

[Peerie Maa]

I am holding it off the bench, but whoever used them last pulled both blades back so they are not sticking out the bottom.

The only non-steel hammer I have is fairly light weight. It's not making anything happen.

Could I use a regular hammer and protect the plane with a piece of scrap wood? I.e., hit the scrap wood, which is in contact with the plane?

-- John

Yes, of course. You may find half crowns from where the previous owner used a steel hammer. Use a scrap of hard wood, so as not to lose any of the shock. I believe that it is the jarring that frees them.

Watch your thumbs though, this is getting complicated;)

[jalmberg]

Tap it with a mallet on the top in front of the throat, that should jar the wedge and iron up on the rebound.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/peerie_maa/MISCwoodplanes1.jpg

Well, I tried my idea and held a piece of scrap wood on the top of the big plane and gave it some good whacks with a hammer. Didn't budge it. It's really stuck in there.

So when you say hold it off the bench, you mean hold it in one hand and whack it with the other?

-- John

[Peerie Maa]

Well, I tried my idea and held a piece of scrap wood on the top of the big plane and gave it some good whacks with a hammer. Didn't budge it. It's really stuck in there.

So when you say hold it off the bench, you mean hold it in one hand and whack it with the other?

-- John

Yes, that's true. As the iron and back iron are tapered and you say that they are not "sticking out of the bottom", you could try tapping them further in, that may break the key and free things up. Don't drive them in too far though as they are in a tapering housing.

[SunshineBridge]

Nooo!
You will damage the wedge. Trust me, I have wooden planes of all designs, my advice will work.
Silly question. You are holding it off the bench when you hit it aren't you?

BTW here is one I made earlier:D


I of course bow to your greater experience Nick (and I'm not being sarcastic). I don't think it would damage plane a in the pic, but would damage plane b as in plane b the wedge it tapered in the central cutout.

[Robert L.]

From the photos it looks like the iron in the smaller plan as moved back considerably between the two photos! Given it has moved that much I would think you should be able to pull it all the way out which should simplify removing the wedge.

[jalmberg]

Yes, of course. You may find half crowns from where the previous owner used a steel hammer. Use a scrap of hard wood, so as not to lose any of the shock. I believe that it is the jarring that frees them.

Watch your thumbs though, this is getting complicated;)

Success! After you mentioned this, I looked, and indeed the back ends of both planes had clearly been wacked by a steel hammer before, so I figured it would be okay for me to keep up the 'tradition'. A couple of whacks with a hammer freed them both up, and didn't even make a mark on them.

The steels look pretty good. I'll post some photos in a bit.

Thanks!

-- John

[Peerie Maa]

Great,
You'll find them a pleasure to use when you get the hang of setting them right.

[jalmberg]

Here they are, apart.

The small steel is labled "Peugeot Freres Agapantie" and the large one "W. Butcher"

They are both pretty darn sharp with very little rust. Should clean up nice.

-- John

[jalmberg]

Whoops... forgot photos:

http://www.identry.com/downloads/master/small.jpg

http://www.identry.com/downloads/master/large.jpg

[Lew Barrett]

Well they look the business, eh?

By the way, a good idea, which I'm sure has occured to you, is to get yourself a deadblow hammer for the next time you need one; useful tools, I have a couple in different sizes. All the usual sources sell them, and without the least bit of creativity employed, twenty bucks should buy you a collection.

All you really need is one, but at this price....... (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000M5YZBI/ref=asc_df_B000M5YZBI943506?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=nextag-auto-delta-20&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B000M5YZBI)

[jalmberg]

These are my first planes, so i didnt have any idea how to adjust or sharpen them. Found some dreat videos on both by David Finck on youtube. Just search for him and youll find them.

Pretty excited!

[Mrleft8]

I just skimmed this thread, so it may have been said before... Never strike the sole of your plane with a hammer or mallet. To back the iron (and wedge) out tap the heel of the plane with a wooden mallet. If your plane has a "strike button" on the heel it's OK to use a brass hammer. To set the iron, press the wedge in to place with the iron just level with the mouth opening. Give the wedge a light tap to set it. This will likely also set the iron just a hair too deep. Gently tap the heel of the plane to back the iron just a hair.
It takes sme getting used to, but eventually you'll be able to set your wooden planes more accurately than any metal plane.

[Tom Lathrop]

I came in late but of course Nick is correct. Think about how you will adjust the blade depth when you use them. A tap on the stern reduces depth of cut and a tap on the bow deepens the cut. Been done that way forever. Many wood planes have metal buttons on the ends so a metal hammer can be used.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

If you don't have a suitable hammer to hand, then the bench can be pressed into service - holding the body of the plane just abaft the wedge, and keeping the plane vertical, strike the top of the bench with the flat stern end of the plane...

[Mrleft8]

If you don't have a suitable hammer to hand, then the bench can be pressed into service - holding the body of the plane just abaft the wedge, and keeping the plane vertical, strike the top of the bench with the flat stern end of the plane...

This message brought to you by the "Biggerhammer school of technology" Where our motto is :"If you can't use a sledgehammer to drive a finish nail, your fingers are too pudgy!" :D ;)

[jalmberg]

I've been playing with these planes for a bit today and there's no problem adjusting them using the tap front or back method. Pretty light taps will do it, so I'm not to worried about the hammer at this point.

These planes were used by a real workman a long time ago and he evidently wasn't concerned with a few hammer marks front and back, so I'm not going to go crazy about that.

I've actually gotten them adjusted well enough to take some pretty think shavings. The steels are pretty sharp, but watching Finck's videos made me realize they should be even sharper, so now I need to gather sharpening equipment...

Thanks for all the ideas and help. Gonna put these right to work building the backbone for my little skiff.

[jalmberg]

BTW, the blades are 3/16" thick... pretty heavy duty steel. Should sharpen nicely.

[Peerie Maa]

You may need to tune the cap irons as well.

Any of you guys know a good video on cap irons?


Lefty?


Anyone?

[jalmberg]

I'm looking at grinding wheels for sharpening planes, chisels, etc.

Anyone have any recommendations as to wheel size, horse power, make, etc?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

A linisher is a happier thing than a grinding wheel - try not to burn the edge and draw the temper.

[Peerie Maa]

I'm looking at grinding wheels for sharpening planes, chisels, etc.

Anyone have any recommendations as to wheel size, horse power, make, etc?

Grinding wheels turn too fast and can ruin the temper by heating the steel. Unless you can find a water cooled grindstone, you are better using a belt sander for rough grinding, then go to hand stones. Do get a honing guide, they some times turn up at car boot/garage sales.
This is the old Stanley, no longer made but you can find them
http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/images/stanley%20hone%20guide2.jpg
Or you can buy new more sophisticated guides.

[chiefypoo]

on sharpning your old planes. Go to scary sharp on the net . This system is the best I have came across to sharpen about any blade except axes. If your blades are fairly sharp they probably just need a bit of honeing . I never grind mine unless there is a nick from improper use. Get a piece of 1/4 glass pane about 12X18 " as a base and read all about the scary sharp* system you'll love it.Year ago they used a lot of old wooden planes to start fires but, I bet they were sorry later. I made a couple of planes about 25 years ago and ordered Hock blades for them expensive but, you can peel wood shaving thin and almost as long as you want.Be proud of your planes your one lucky person.

[jalmberg]

H'mmm... it seems that when it comes to boat building, there are always several ways to skin the cat.

If I can get away without buying an expensive grinder, that sounds good to me.

What I've been watching are these two David Finck videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/djfwood#p/a/1/E5bYy2wimBY
http://www.youtube.com/user/djfwood#p/a/u/0/vDJYExhMGe8

Seem like a good system if you have a grinder and wet stone. David keeps his finger on the blade so it doesn't get too hot. I.e., too hot for finger, too hot for blade.

-- John

[jalmberg]

on sharpning your old planes. Go to scary sharp on the net . This system is the best I have came across to sharpen about any blade except axes. If your blades are fairly sharp they probably just need a bit of honeing . I never grind mine unless there is a nick from improper use. Get a piece of 1/4 glass pane about 12X18 " as a base and read all about the scary sharp* system you'll love it.Year ago they used a lot of old wooden planes to start fires but, I bet they were sorry later. I made a couple of planes about 25 years ago and ordered Hock blades for them expensive but, you can peel wood shaving thin and almost as long as you want.Be proud of your planes your one lucky person.

Yes, they are nice, and I could have snagged another one for $5, but I wasn't sure if they would be usable, so I only bought the two for $15. I'm thinking of going back to see if the other is still available...

- John

[Canoeyawl]

"Step away from the grinder, sir" - lol
I think WB magazine just had an article on this.
There are many ways to sharpen a plane iron, but an electric grinder will ruin them in less than ten seconds.
for me, I use water stones, 3 of them
coarse is #800 grit, medium is #1200, fine is at least #3000

[Lew Barrett]

I use water stones as well. I keep a bucket of water with a capful of bleach under the bench and the stones in the bucket. Keeping the chisels and plane irons sharp is a matter of pride for me as well as practicality. I use a modified version of scary sharp on my planer and jointer knives as well, but that has no bearing on what you're up to at the moment.

No grinder for the knives and you'll be much better off.

[Mrleft8]

A slow moving grinder with a water bath would be ideal, but any grinder can be made to work. You do not want to use the gray carborundum stones that come with most grinders. Those are for removing large hunks of metal quickly and coarsely. The white or pink aluminum (aluminium to you) oxide wheels are the best. They cut fairly quickly, but stay cooler which reduces your chances of burning the edge. The larger the wheels diameter the shallower your hollow grind, which is a good thing.
Make sure that the back of the iron is dead flat, with no pits from rust or hammer whacks, and polished to a mirror shine. Your chip breaker should sit dead nuts flat on the iron, with no gaps. Use a bright light and sight the joint between iron and chip breaker at low angle. If you see light anywhere you'll need to hone the chip breaker. The top of the chip breaker should be smooth and polished, with no rust, or ragged bits. The slipperier the better for the shavings to roll off.
Lastly... Even a relatively dull plane can take fairly thick shavings. The trick is to get shavings that you can read the paper through. To do this the iron must be absolutely sharp.....Not "sharp enough".
David Finck is an excellent teacher and woodworker (Yes, I know him, he was a year ahead of me at "Kamp Krenov"), so follow his video advice.

[cookie]

Yes, they are nice, and I could have snagged another one for $5, but I wasn't sure if they would be usable, so I only bought the two for $15. I'm thinking of going back to see if the other is still available...

- John

They can certainly do a great job. How is the area in front of the mouth? One of my wooden planes, the smoother, needs a bit of maintenance there. I think I will put in a piece of oak or tropical hardwood to make area perfectly flat and the gap between mouth and blade as small as possible.

[Peerie Maa]

What Lefty said, in spades:D

[cookie]

The white or pink aluminum (aluminium to you) oxide wheels are the best. They cut fairly quickly, but stay cooler which reduces your chances of burning the edge. The larger the wheels diameter the shallower your hollow grind, which is a good thing......

Maybe I am getting a bit nitty gritty here, but is aluminium oxide the best abraisive for quality blades? I've always been weary of using aluminium abrasives on steel where the forming of rust migth be a problem. I guess on a plane blade, that bit of grinding at the edge shouldn't be much of a problem.

[62816inBerlin]

I have seen videos of folks tapping lightly with a small brass mallet on either side of the wedge. You might give that a try.
They still sell wood-block planes here in Germany.
I tap the top of the wedge sideways too, but I admit that the wedges on yours seem to have less lateral play. Still, a smart sideways tap should loosen them.

Gernot H.;)

[jalmberg]

A slow moving grinder with a water bath would be ideal, but any grinder can be made to work. You do not want to use the gray carborundum stones that come with most grinders. Those are for removing large hunks of metal quickly and coarsely. The white or pink aluminum (aluminium to you) oxide wheels are the best. They cut fairly quickly, but stay cooler which reduces your chances of burning the edge. The larger the wheels diameter the shallower your hollow grind, which is a good thing.
Make sure that the back of the iron is dead flat, with no pits from rust or hammer whacks, and polished to a mirror shine. Your chip breaker should sit dead nuts flat on the iron, with no gaps. Use a bright light and sight the joint between iron and chip breaker at low angle. If you see light anywhere you'll need to hone the chip breaker. The top of the chip breaker should be smooth and polished, with no rust, or ragged bits. The slipperier the better for the shavings to roll off.
Lastly... Even a relatively dull plane can take fairly thick shavings. The trick is to get shavings that you can read the paper through. To do this the iron must be absolutely sharp.....Not "sharp enough".
David Finck is an excellent teacher and woodworker (Yes, I know him, he was a year ahead of me at "Kamp Krenov"), so follow his video advice.

Thanks for the info on 'tuning up' the chip breaker. I've got one of the blades in front of me, right now. There are small areas of light rust on both the blade and the chip breaker, but there is also a kind of dark patina on the high end of the blade.

What's the best way to remove surface rust from the non-edge parts of the blade? I.e., how do you polish the chip breaker? Steel wool, perhaps? Followed up by some polishing on a wet stone?

-- John

[Mrleft8]

0000 Steel wool, then "lap" it on a fine stone. If you're using water stones you'll want a "Gold stone" for polishing the iron. If you're using oil stones you'll want a "Hard Arkansas". Some here extoll the virtues of the "Shapton" ceramic stones. They certainly have a great reputation, but I have never used one.

[Peerie Maa]

There are small areas of light rust on both the blade and the chip breaker, but there is also a kind of dark patina on the high end of the blade.



The dark patina is black iron oxide from the forge. Its OK, if there is any rust in that part of the blade, clean it off with a wire brush and kill it with a patent rust converter.

[jalmberg]

They can certainly do a great job. How is the area in front of the mouth? One of my wooden planes, the smoother, needs a bit of maintenance there. I think I will put in a piece of oak or tropical hardwood to make area perfectly flat and the gap between mouth and blade as small as possible.

The bottoms of both planes are in perfect condition... very smooth, no cracks. And the mouths look fine to my unpracticed eyes...

-- John

[Mrleft8]

A couple more points.... You'll want the chip breaker about 1/16" or less from the cutting edge of the iron unless you're really hogging a lot of wood. After you polish the chip breaker it doesn't hurt at all to put a good coat of paste wax on it. Remember slipperier is betterer. ;)

[jalmberg]

"Step away from the grinder, sir" - lol
I think WB magazine just had an article on this.
There are many ways to sharpen a plane iron, but an electric grinder will ruin them in less than ten seconds.
for me, I use water stones, 3 of them
coarse is #800 grit, medium is #1200, fine is at least #3000

Oh, right. I just found it. Sep/Oct issue. Excellent...

[cookie]

The bottoms of both planes are in perfect condition... very smooth, no cracks. And the mouths look fine to my unpracticed eyes...

-- John
Great buy you did then.
As for the patina, I would leave it in tact if possible. Looks nice and nostalgic and provides a bit of protection against rust.

[jalmberg]

I just had a 'duh!' moment... It suddenly occurred to me that these questions of mine are not really boat building questions, but wood working questions. Up until now, I've been reading boat-building books, but I just ran out to the library and brought home an armful of wood working books... hand tools, sharpening, etc.

Very, very interesting... Whole new worlds are opening up...

Makes you wonder why everyone isn't a boat builder. :-)

[Mrleft8]

NOTE: The category isn't "Boat building / repair" it's "Building / repair" Your questions, and the resulting answers are helpful to many here who otherwise may be too shy to ask.... This is what makes this "place" so excellent!

[Canoeyawl]

When you can take a paper thin shaving from the end grain of white oak, your starting to get "sharp"

[Mrleft8]

When you can take a paper thin shaving from the end grain of white oak, your starting to get "sharp"

...Then try the same thing with White Pine...;)

[Canoeyawl]

I was getting to that...

[Candyfloss]

Why? You're not thinking of putting White Pine in a boat are you Lefty?

[Captain Blight]

Lots of the Great Lakes schooners had decks of white pine. The old-growth and quartersawn WP is actually pretty good stuff.

[jalmberg]

NOTE: The category isn't "Boat building / repair" it's "Building / repair" Your questions, and the resulting answers are helpful to many here who otherwise may be too shy to ask.... This is what makes this "place" so excellent!

Well, one thing I'm good at is asking dumb questions, so at least I'm some use :)

Not to take this thread entirely off topic, but another thing that occurred to me the other day is that after building a big-ish boat, it would be a snap to build a house, particularly a timber frame type house. Same tools, same skills, same mindset...

I wonder how many boat builders are also house or cottage builders?

I was reading that either Nat Benjamin or Ross Gannon was building a house for himself out of scavenged wood. The idea was to build a new house out of old material, so the house would have an 'old' feel from the get-go. This seemed like an excellent idea to me.

-- John

[Canoeyawl]

Lots of the Great Lakes schooners had decks of white pine. The old-growth and quartersawn WP is actually pretty good stuff.
Yup - clear heart White Pine is really nice stuff.
Think Pinnace, ("pine boat", the colonists loved it).
I built one small boat using it, about fifteen years ago.