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ShagRock
10-25-2009, 12:25 AM
The web link below is an article by Lear concerning history of fishery in some areas of Atlantic Canada. If you scroll down to p.47 you see a 100 year old photo (Fig. 4) of fishing boats. I believe these may be carvel planked with a raked counter at the stern.

Could someone tell me the type of sail rig being carried on these small boats, and what other type of sail rig might have been typical at that time and place in history?

On p. 49, there is a photo of a fishing boat c. 1932 at Perce Rock in Quebec. It appears to be a double-ended boat and may have a New England connection. Would anyone know the boat type, sail rig displayed, and whether such a boat might have been common in that time period in New England?

http://www.nafo.int/about/history/lear/1497-1713.pdf

peter radclyffe
10-25-2009, 01:35 AM
one appears to be a gaff schooner, one may be a gaff ketch with spritsail mizzen, maybe a dandy rig

peter radclyffe
10-25-2009, 01:56 AM
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy195/helpME7/img253.jpg

ShagRock
10-25-2009, 02:23 AM
one appears to be a gaff schooner, one may be a gaff ketch with spritsail mizzen, maybe a dandy rig

Thanks Peter..I knew a 'simple' answer was not likely, but which ones are which in the photo? Sorry, I couldn't post the picture as it's copy protected, I guess. In Newfoundland, the expression 'dandy-rig' refers to anything you make or create that superbly gets the job done:D

I looked up definition of a dandy-rig


dandy-rig, another name, fallen into disuse, for the ketch (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-ketch.html) and yawl (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-yawl.html) rigs. It was also sometimes used to describe the rig when the mizzen (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-mizzen.html)-sail was about one-third the size of the mainsail, the true ketch rig having a mizzen-sail about half the size of the mainsail and the true yawl rig having a mizzen-sail a quarter the size, or less. In some English West Country craft the mizzen-mast was stepped just forward of the transom (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-transom.html) stern either to one side of the tiller (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-tiller.html) or with an iron tiller crooked around the mast. The sail, of triangular shape, sheeted to an outrigger (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-outrigger.html) or bumpkin (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-bumpkin.html), was called the dandy, and a boat so rigged, such as the Falmouth Quay punt, was called dandy rigged.

So it would appear that the 'dandy-rig' only distinguishes a 'mizzen size' that falls between ketch and a yawl..is that the right way to see it, i.e. otherwise the three rigs are the same?

Do you think any of these small boats is big enough to call a schooner, or am I confusing sail rig with boat shape?

peter radclyffe
10-25-2009, 02:36 AM
the 2 on the right may be schooners, the 2 on the left , dandy ketches, the term is almost obsolete in england now i believe
today its usually yawl or ketch, i shoudnt post these but sometimes i do

peter radclyffe
10-25-2009, 02:39 AM
maybe its different there but here a rig is just about that, not the hull size or shape as far as i know
tho there may be exceptions, some are generic for sure

ShagRock
10-25-2009, 03:49 AM
maybe its different there but here a rig is just about that, not the hull size or shape as far as i know
tho there may be exceptions, some are generic for sure

Thanks Peter..most helpful for me!! I looked at the photo again and see now that the schooner types you refer on the right side of photo do not have mizzens. I suppose a schooner rigged vessel could be any size dependent on purpose she is built; i.e. near shore, offshore, distant trading, etc.

One distinction that causes confusion with small fishing boats is yawl as in 'sail rig' versus yawl as in 'boat type'; the latter use referring to the double ended 'yole' (Ness, Shetland) common to northern environs like Norway and Scotland.


A yawl (from Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language) Jol) is a two-masted sailing craft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_craft) similar to a sloop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloop) or cutter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_%28ship%29) but with an additional mizzen mast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizzenmast) well aft of the main mast, often right on the transom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transom_%28nautical%29). A small mizzen sail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail) is hoisted on the mizzen mast.
The yawl was originally developed as a rig for commercial fishing boats, one good example of this being the Salcombe Yawl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salcombe_Yawl) (a traditional small fishing boat built in Devon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devon)). In its heyday, the rig was particularly popular with single-handed sailors, such as circumnavigators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumnavigation) Harry Pidgeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Pidgeon) and Francis Chichester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Chichester). This was due to the ability of a yawl to be trimmed to sail without rudder input. Modern self-steering and navigation aids have made this less important, and the yawl has generally fallen out of favor.
I would hazard a guess that the boats in the photo evolved from the boats around areas of Devon/Dorset. Another question is how the mizzen by itself (with main sail down) was of advantage to a fisher, say when hand-lining for groundfish?

downthecreek
10-25-2009, 04:17 AM
the 2 on the right may be schooners, the 2 on the left , dandy ketches, the term is almost obsolete in england now i believe

The term "dandy rigged" is still used amongst the Thames barge fraternity to denote a barge with a spritsail mizzen.

ShagRock
10-25-2009, 04:56 AM
The term "dandy rigged" is still used amongst the Thames barge fraternity to denote a barge with a spritsail mizzen.

Thanks for that, Mr. Downthecreek.. most interesting! You must know a bit about the northeast coast of England. I wonder if the boats like the Scarborough Yawl, cod smacks, or the beautiful transom stern cobles from the little town of Staithes used these type of rigs?

I found a reference that Staithes fisherman mostly hand-lined or long-lined for cod and salted/dried it on beaches..like Newfoundland. I also read the fishers there hated those big net-trawlers with a passion!

I wonder if the mizzen gave some advantage for use when retrieving anchored long-lines (called trawl-lines over here to distinguish from trawl-dragnets)..keeping head to the wind??

Peerie Maa
10-25-2009, 06:23 AM
Gordon,
It might help you to understand how the different rigs developed in the UK when discussing rig types.

Small boat rigs were usually dipping lug or spritsail. The dipping lug boats like the Scottish and Northumbrian boats were usually single masted until they became big enough to require a mizzen, to reduce sail size to something more manageable. There were two masted small boats, e.g. Orkney yoals and Humber gold dusters, these were sprit rigged.
Further south around Yarmouth and Lowestoft, and also in the south west, the luggers were three masted, but abandoned the main mast to make room for working the herring nets. This is why the biggest mast forward is the foremast not the mainmast.
The Yarmouth and Lowestoft drifters converted to gaff mainsails, but continued to step the mizzen alongside the sternpost, so were called yawls. Peter is right that the area of the mizzen helps designate the name of the rig, but the other factor is that the yawl mizzen is alongside the sternpost or on the counter. The ketch has the mizzen stepped further forward.
The same part of the coast was worked by cutter rigged trawlers. As these became bigger the main boom became dangerously long, so new boats were hauled out and lengthened by building in new mid body. The mainmast step was left in the same place and a mizzen mast was installed for balance. Hence the invention of the ketch.
Round to the west, cutters ere converted by shortening the main boom and stepping a small mizzen, these were called dandys, copied by the French as Dundee.
The Irish sea used a schooner rig in small boats, often without jib, this was similar to the earlier shallop rig, and was used for pleasure boats and fast carriers known as wherrys.

Unfortunately, the link to the pdf is not working for me:mad:

peter radclyffe
10-25-2009, 06:48 AM
yes even today some small m f v's use a small steadying sail mizzen to keep head to wind & cut down the rolling your guts out

Clan Gordon
10-25-2009, 10:47 AM
Hi Shagrock

I am no expert, but I think there is a chance that the second boat in your reference may be related to a PINKY. That was a type of double ended fishing boat with steep raked sternpost - which was common to both New England and Eastern Canada. The drawings I have seen show a similar hull shape to the one in your picture.

Only problem is that their era was the 1830s to 1875 and they were larger (40 to 55ft) than the boat in your picture.

I am sure some folks from your side of the Atlantic will be able to correct me or give you better direction.

Tom Hunter
10-25-2009, 12:23 PM
Clan Gordon is on the right tack.

It's some sort of open Pinky, the stern is the defining feature. Eastport Maine had a local type, usually sloop rigged, that persisted into the early 20th century. I have one that was built in 1969 as a yacht.

Here is mine from the stern

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2467138655_6e89bc3621_b.jpg

Here is another with a schooner rig:

http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/26439d1225079108-gaff-rigged-pinky-sloop-pinky-schooner.jpg

I've never seen a picture of a small, open, schooner rigged version, but the bow and stern shape are very much Eastport Pinky, and there were certainly small, open sloops.

ShagRock
10-25-2009, 11:26 PM
Gentlemen..thanks for the great responses! Little slow posting back as I was off on a family outing today. I now realize that a study of 'sail rigs' is crucial to appreciate fully the nature and use of the early fishing boats referenced above...so I've got some work to do in that area.
Peter..thank you for taking the time to identify the rigs in the photos.
Downthecreek..that was neat to know that the the term 'dandy rig' is still in use. Thanks for defining that!
Nick..most generous of you to provide such a detailed overview of sail rig development in Britain. When I opened the McKee and Greenhill books on inshore craft for the first time, I was astounded by the immense variety of specialized boats for inshore work in the British Isles.
Thanks Clan Gordon and Tom for identifying the Pinky. By the way Tom, your boat is a beauty indeed!

I will likely post further queries at a later time..providing I don't get overly tangled up in some riggin':)

downthecreek
10-26-2009, 05:07 AM
Thanks for that, Mr. Downthecreek.. most interesting! You must know a bit about the northeast coast of England. I wonder if the boats like the Scarborough Yawl, cod smacks, or the beautiful transom stern cobles from the little town of Staithes used these type of rigs?


I'm more familiar with the southern east coast - East Anglia to Kent. In particular the beautiful smacks (I think a good east coast oyster smack is one of the loveliest creations of man, as well as being a highly evolved working machine) and the sailing barges. Mind you, I think the owner of the Transcur will know more than I, not to speak of Andrew C-B.

I also have some familiarity with the west country boats, having sailed in both a pilot cutter and a Brixham trawler in my youth. I also did a lot of racing in Salcombe Yawls. This is a handsome, clinker built dinghy class that developed from the local small inshore fishing boats. Still being built, great fun to sail and very competitive racing class. As you can see, they had quite a substantial mizzen and this was certainly used to help hold the boat head to wind for various purposes.

Quite a high proportion of my sailing life has been spent with two masted rigs. I do like their versatility.

http://www.theboatyardatbeer.com/images/RR5.jpg

ShagRock
10-26-2009, 05:08 AM
I thought these were interesting links to post here, because I'm also looking into the history of 'shallops' and 'punts'.

It appears the first is a new website concerned with Massachusetts maritime history. There is a neat video of sailing a replica shallop and photo history of vessel types including several Pinkys..interesting stuff!

The second link is about the Hart's Cove shallop which was found in New Hampshire's Piscataqua River off Castle Rock...items found there connected to Devon.

http://www.mamaritimeheritage.com/vessel_types.html

http://www.mit.edu/people/bpfoley/shallop.html

ShagRock
10-26-2009, 05:21 AM
Downthecreek...it appears we were posting at the same moment in time.

Thanks for the great post! I'm impressed with your passion for traditional boats. Information like this is always so much appreciated when it's flavored with personal sailing experience.

I was reading an interview given by a traditional boat builder (now long deceased) who noted that sail rigs might vary in small boats. So would choosing a sprit, lug or gaff sail be sometimes matter of personal choice, i.e. what one was learned in?

Also, there are many small boats around the coast of Britain that have 'punt' as part of their name. I have seen it written in a history book that the shallop developed into the punt. Is this the case or did both these 'name types' exist together in time?

downthecreek
10-26-2009, 07:12 AM
So would choosing a sprit, lug or gaff sail be sometimes matter of personal choice, i.e. what one was learned in?

Bearing in mind that we tend to see strong similarities in rig, hull form etc. in different areas and according to the work the boat did, I suspect that the choice of rig was largely dictated by these local factors, although local tradition would also play a part (traditions develop for a reason) Another factor would be simplicity and ease of repair when things got broken, as I'm sure they often did. It is fascinating to see the huge variety of offshore and inshore working boats around the coast and relate the character of the boat to its work and environment.


Also, there are many small boats around the coast of Britain that have 'punt' as part of their name. I have seen it written in a history book that the shallop developed into the punt. Is this the case or did both these 'name types' exist together in time?I'm no expert, but I think the term "punt" when applied to a small seagoing craft, rather than a flat thing full of tipsy undergraduates, implies a boat whose work was to ferry people, cargo, supplies and materials between large vessels and the shore. Thus you find these "punts" in places where ships would lie at anchor rather than coming in to a dock. A good example is the Falmouth Quay Punt. These punts were, I think, often rigged with a gaff mainsail and quite a big "leg o'mutton" mizzen - a very handy rig for working in all kinds of weathers, coming alongside etc. Restored Quay Punts have made some considerable voyages. Whether the earlier term for a boat doing this kind of work was "shallop" I don't know. When I have time I'll look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary (unless someone a lot more knowledgeable than I can get there first - there are many such people here. :))

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-26-2009, 07:18 AM
I concur with Downthecreek.

In the West Country the word "punt" is generally used for what is called a "tender" or a "dinghy" elsewhere.

A point, once made to me by the late Hervey Benham, a real expert, is that fishing boats had to be cheap; any rig that involved expensive ironmongery, like the Bristol Channel pilot skiffs' Appledore reefing gear, was too expensive for them.

downthecreek
10-26-2009, 07:59 AM
I concur with Downthecreek.

In the West Country the word "punt" is generally used for what is called a "tender" or a "dinghy" elsewhere.



And, of course, in our neck of the woods a smack's boat was known as the "footboat".

I notice the redoubtable Steve Hall (who currently has a nice little coble reposing in front of his loft - albeit, I fear a plastic one) always uses that term.

Peerie Maa
10-26-2009, 01:40 PM
I was reading an interview given by a traditional boat builder (now long deceased) who noted that sail rigs might vary in small boats. So would choosing a sprit, lug or gaff sail be sometimes matter of personal choice, i.e. what one was learned in?


The rig, the form of the boat, and the use of the boat tend to evolve together.
Most British boats started our with lug, derived by reshaping the square sail. It is thought that the sprit was copied from the Dutch, but if so how come the Orkney's used it?
Both lug and sprit will have been popular because they are simple, use light gear, and are easy to stow for clearing the decks to work.

The lug is excellent for passage making, sailing out to distant grounds, fishing lying too, and then returning. It was only superseded when the power and manoeuvrability of dragging a trawl was needed. The need to keep the middle of the boat clear for working nets or crab and lobster pots (or in the case of the Deal Galleys ships anchors) mitigated towards dipping lugs with the masts pushed out to the ends of the boat. The weight of the gaff, and its blocks, combined with all of the bending loads imposed by the gaff thrust required a heavier mast and more weight aloft, requiring a heavier ballasted hull than the equivalent lugger, so I can only think of two fishing boat types that converted from lug to gaff without significant change.

downthecreek
10-26-2009, 01:58 PM
Mr. Peerie Maa - another gentleman whom I should have acknowledged as having far, far greater expertise that me. :)

johnw
10-26-2009, 02:08 PM
http://gsp.0catch.com/GaspeFishingSchooner.jpg

'Tancook Whalers' by Robert Post has more information on these.

Peerie Maa
10-26-2009, 02:48 PM
Mr. Peerie Maa - another gentleman whom I should have acknowledged as having far, far greater expertise that me. :)

Not at all.:o You know your patch, I know a little about mine (basically my Grandfathers boats, Peerie Maa and her sisters, and the Nobby, the rest is dabbling).

S B
10-26-2009, 11:18 PM
The two on the right appear to be bully boats, middle and far left ,punts with jigger set.

S B
10-26-2009, 11:27 PM
I concur with Downthecreek.

In the West Country the word "punt" is generally used for what is called a "tender" or a "dinghy" elsewhere.

A point, once made to me by the late Hervey Benham, a real expert, is that fishing boats had to be cheap; any rig that involved expensive ironmongery, like the Bristol Channel pilot skiffs' Appledore reefing gear, was too expensive for them.
Here the word punt refers to a sturdy, sea worthy craft, up to about 20'. It is much heavier than the dingy, used in harbour, elsewhere. There are, or should I say were,various sizes and variations of the shape, collar punt"tender",trap punt, and by size, three quintal etc.

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 12:27 AM
Here the word punt refers to a sturdy, sea worthy craft, up to about 20'. It is much heavier than the dingy, used in harbour, elsewhere. There are, or should I say were,various sizes and variations of the shape, collar punt"tender",trap punt, and by size, three quintal etc.

SB..how are you? I knew you'd be along to 'set us straight':). And yes, the 'punt' varied in size and performed different uses as you note. They were also 2 and 4 oared ones, which sometimes reflected how far from shore they ventured and their carrying capacity..usually of fish. There was even a sealing/bird hunting punt (almost like the evolution of the Chamberlain gunning dory, but of course a different boat). Makes sense, since Devonshire folks of olde loved to hunt with the old Poole gun. It seems to be consensus that the lug preceded the sprit sail. Then there is also the 'highrat' punt, 4-oared, that had built up 'washboards'.. to carry more fish....I guess.

Thanks for bringing up the 'bully' boat. There probably aren't a lot of people these days that would recognize one, especially in the old photo posted above. Here is another photo that claims to be one, at Jackson's Arm on the northeast coast; although I've read some were without booms. Is the pole sticking off the stern an 'outrigger'? I wonder if our English friends see something in this one that reflects certain fishing boats of Britain?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wlcofzNw7q4/RwwBQDHGRuI/AAAAAAAABlg/Fi3zK4ePhaE/s1600-h/bully+boat%3D7.jpg

Not everything is clear about the old boats, as so little was documented. The same is true for fishing boats in Britain, once you get so far back. Prowse in his History of Newfoundland, based on the colonial records, claims the punts evolved from shalloways which were smaller than smaller than a shallop; the latter getting up to 40' in keel and sailing to the Grand Banks. One reference indicates the large shallop had a mainsail, foresail, and jib. Would that be a "shallop rig"?

In the meantime, here's a much clearer photo of a small 2 man punt with sails rigged. (This is from the History of Twillingate site..lots of schooners on that one). What sail rig is this?

http://www.twillingate.net/history/exhibit/index.php?gallery=./Seafaring%20and%20Schooners&image=Twillingate%20-%20Small%20Sail.jpeg

peter radclyffe
10-27-2009, 12:45 AM
a spritsail yawl, but i guess theres a local name for it

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 02:50 AM
a spritsail yawl, but i guess theres a local name for it

Thanks Peter! You know your sails. The main sail here is like that on the "Polperro spirtty', which is also an undecked fishing boat from Cornwall. For whatever reason, I have found no references of 'yawl' being used locally in recent times anyway. But some oldtimers used the word 'driver', as if they were referring to a mizzen, but I'm not sure. You also note SB's comment above about the 'jigger set'.

SB..I know they're jigging (hand lining), but what is a 'jigger set'?

A punt according to the Dictionary of Newfoundland English could be up to 25', undecked, keeled, and 'round bottomed'. It usually had one mast, mainsail, jib and mizzen. If it had 2 masts, with a foresail, then it might be called a 'skiff' to distinguish it from the former. It would seem the oldtimers apparently didn't confuse the word skiff to mean a flatbottom boat as it does for some today.

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 03:47 AM
And to add something else to the mix, this is a local 'jack boat'. What rig is this flying?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3313/3631729129_084031e78d.jpg

skuthorp
10-27-2009, 04:37 AM
This might be of interest, on a post card from March 1914, just before the storm.
http://intheboatshed.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/brixham.jpg

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 05:13 AM
Thanks Skuthorp for the beautiful photo! I take it you mean WWI and not the storm of 1866..which I was only reading about yesterday..60 ships gone and 100 souls lost. And about the generous folks of nearby Torbay raising money to get a rescue lifeboat for the harbour.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-27-2009, 05:34 AM
And to add something else to the mix, this is a local 'jack boat'. What rig is this flying?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3313/3631729129_084031e78d.jpg

I'd call that a shallop.

downthecreek
10-27-2009, 06:40 AM
But some oldtimers used the word 'driver', as if they were referring to a mizzen, but I'm not sure.

I believe the fore and aft gaff sail set on the aftermost mast of a ship rigged vessel was sometimes known as the "driver". The other name for it is the "spanker."

Peerie Maa
10-27-2009, 08:43 AM
Is the pole sticking off the stern an 'outrigger'? I wonder if our English friends see something in this one that reflects certain fishing boats of Britain?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wlcofzNw7q4/RwwBQDHGRuI/AAAAAAAABlg/Fi3zK4ePhaE/s1600-h/bully+boat%3D7.jpg
I do not believe that that spar is a part of the rig at all, the mainsail is sheeted to the rail, so the spar serves no purpose.


Not everything is clear about the old boats, as so little was documented. The same is true for fishing boats in Britain, once you get so far back. Prowse in his History of Newfoundland, based on the colonial records, claims the punts evolved from shalloways which were smaller than smaller than a shallop; the latter getting up to 40' in keel and sailing to the Grand Banks. One reference indicates the large shallop had a mainsail, foresail, and jib. Would that be a "shallop rig"?
Yes. I believe that the shallop was a two master, possibly with short gaffs, and only one head sail, if any.


In the meantime, here's a much clearer photo of a small 2 man punt with sails rigged. (This is from the History of Twillingate site..lots of schooners on that one). What sail rig is this?

http://www.twillingate.net/history/exhibit/index.php?gallery=./Seafaring%20and%20Schooners&image=Twillingate%20-%20Small%20Sail.jpeg
That mizzen could also be called a jigger, there was a Dee Jigger boat, but with gaff foresail.

johnw
10-27-2009, 01:09 PM
And to add something else to the mix, this is a local 'jack boat'. What rig is this flying?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3313/3631729129_084031e78d.jpg
It's a simple bald-headed schooner with the jib not set.

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 04:26 PM
It's a simple bald-headed schooner with the jib not set.

Thanks for that John! It was getting frustrating:o, not knowing my sails, especially since my 7th ago ancestor owned a large shipyard in Heart's Content that built barques, brigantines, and lots of schooners "by the ton":). So I did more digging:

The 'Bully' boat was a bluff, 2-masted decked boat, up to 35', schooner rigged vessel that could fish offshore and was also used like a 'lighter' to transfer fish from smaller boats to the shore or to a large schooner. On some, a topsail was added to the main, while others were set up without booms. Some smaller ones in 20' range were rigged only with a foresail, jib and 'driver' (mizzen). It was rare, but the occasional person used a 'sloop' for the the use as a lighter.

The 'Jack' boat was basically a smaller version of a bully. It could range 5-25 tons, and was also schooner-rigged and used in the same manner as the bully.

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 04:40 PM
I do not believe that that spar is a part of the rig at all, the mainsail is sheeted to the rail, so the spar serves no purpose.

Nick, you're likely right on this, as some trimmed the mainsail aft to horns projecting from the quarters. But I will continuing looking to understand why some were set up with 2 outriggers off the transom. I read in Greenhill that an outrigger was used on some yawl boats so the mizzen could be used almost like a rudder (but that may have little connection here).


Yes. I believe that the shallop was a two master, possibly with short gaffs, and only one head sail, if any.Well, that would be quite important in terms of the possible evolution of the shallop into 2-masted boats like the bully boat.


That mizzen could also be called a jigger, there was a Dee Jigger boat, but with gaff foresail.That's sounds spot on Nick, as I did find a reference for 'driver' as being a small quadrilateral sail placed at the stern of a fishing punt! So SB's use of the term 'jigger set' would apply as some of the boats in the photo in my initial post had the the other sails down with only the mizzen left standing. This is useful, as Downthecreek notes, to not confuse with the other use of the term 'driver' as a spanker

Fascinating stuff! As noted by Downthecreek, there were many fishing 'punts' used in Britain. One was the the Brixham punt which was carried onboard the Brixham trawlers..similar in fashion to punts being carried on schooners. Also interesting that Greenhill mentions that the 'sprit sail' was unusual on small fishing punts, but in the southwest remained in use until the end of sail.

S B
10-27-2009, 10:18 PM
It is unlikely a photo of a "Bully" exists.All of the photos I have seen are at least 2nd or 3rd generation "FREE HAND"copies. Andrew may be right in describing the rig as a shallop. A Bully boat,in my estimation, refers to the original builder's name,same as Herreshoff, Fife and here Vokey. It's claim to fame was in the hull,not the rig, deep keel and ballast pound. If a model still exists,it is most likely hanging above someones bar in Toronto. To pick any one rig as typical is also not possible, because everything was salvaged and reused, sometimes recut ,sometimes not.
I was refering to the "jigger" being set,mizzen. The photo suggests that the boats have been recently becalmed, most facing the same direction.No evidence of anyone actually using a jigger,from the stance of the men. Man in the forestanding room, of the punt on the left, appears to be holding a ground lead off the bottom, hand lining.

S B
10-27-2009, 11:46 PM
SB..how are you? I knew you'd be along to 'set us straight':). And yes, the 'punt' varied in size and performed different uses as you note. They were also 2 and 4 oared ones, which sometimes reflected how far from shore they ventured and their carrying capacity..usually of fish. There was even a sealing/bird hunting punt (almost like the evolution of the Chamberlain gunning dory, but of course a different boat). Makes sense, since Devonshire folks of olde loved to hunt with the old Poole gun. It seems to be consensus that the lug preceded the sprit sail. Then there is also the 'highrat' punt, 4-oared, that had built up 'washboards'.. to carry more fish....I guess.

Thanks for bringing up the 'bully' boat. There probably aren't a lot of people these days that would recognize one, especially in the old photo posted above. Here is another photo that claims to be one, at Jackson's Arm on the northeast coast; although I've read some were without booms. Is the pole sticking off the stern an 'outrigger'? I wonder if our English friends see something in this one that reflects certain fishing boats of Britain?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wlcofzNw7q4/RwwBQDHGRuI/AAAAAAAABlg/Fi3zK4ePhaE/s1600-h/bully+boat%3D7.jpg

Not everything is clear about the old boats, as so little was documented. The same is true for fishing boats in Britain, once you get so far back. Prowse in his History of Newfoundland, based on the colonial records, claims the punts evolved from shalloways which were smaller than smaller than a shallop; the latter getting up to 40' in keel and sailing to the Grand Banks. One reference indicates the large shallop had a mainsail, foresail, and jib. Would that be a "shallop rig"?

In the meantime, here's a much clearer photo of a small 2 man punt with sails rigged. (This is from the History of Twillingate site..lots of schooners on that one). What sail rig is this?

http://www.twillingate.net/history/exhibit/index.php?gallery=./Seafaring%20and%20Schooners&image=Twillingate%20-%20Small%20Sail.jpeg
On the Blogspot one.The rig is the photographers imagination,retouched.poor job.
The Twillingate.net, Sunday afternoon pose for someone with a camera,set every rag they had for show.

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 11:47 PM
Well, SB..that an interesting take! It had crossed my mind re the Blogspot one, but I'm no expert in photography..which you are given your posts in the thread on art, forgeries, and capers:)!

ShagRock
10-27-2009, 11:59 PM
Well SB..at least we got the mizzen, jigger and driver sorted! If no such photo exists, I only speculate the boat was out of use by the time cameras came about. Also, the descriptions I gave above came from the many references given in Story's work. D. Taylor does have a genuine photo of a 'Baccalieu skiff' in his book, which you no doubt have seen..showing a 2-mast boat, gaff rigged with jib (one with a boom, one without:)).

There's a neat post by McMullen in the Yawl Picture thread currently up about the yawl (boat form) versus yawl (rig form). And I suppose one could conceivably hang any rig on a particular boat..even a bedsheet if one was stuck!.

Leaving the hull form out for the moment, and since I'm 'learning to name me rigs', I must ask if you consider the rigs on the 'mythological beast' I posted above to be 'schooner rigged', as noted by John W.?

Edited P.S - and do you think the bully (form) was replaced by the schooner (form)..time line seems to fit??

S B
10-28-2009, 12:46 AM
Well SB..at least we got the mizzen, jigger and driver sorted! If no such photo exists, I only speculate the boat was out of use by the time cameras came about. Also, the descriptions I gave above came from the many references given in Story's work. D. Taylor does have a genuine photo of a 'Baccalieu skiff' in his book, which you no doubt have seen..showing a 2-mast boat, gaff rigged with jib (one with a boom, one without:)).

There's a neat post by McMullen in the Yawl Picture thread currently up about the yawl (boat form) versus yawl (rig form). And I suppose one could conceivably hang any rig on a particular boat..even a bedsheet if one was stuck!.

Leaving the hull form out for the moment, and since I'm 'learning to name me rigs', I must ask if you consider the rigs on the 'mythological beast' I posted above to be 'schooner rigged', as noted by John W.?

Edited P.S - and do you think the bully (form) was replaced by the schooner (form)..time line seems to fit??
I agree with John W on the rig,looks like a jack boat outside the narrows St. John's.
You asked earlier why I called the boats in 1st photo Bullies,well they're not pinkies, stern not high enough. They are not decked,evident by the height of the figures and they are fishing inshore, smallboats along side,typical mix of Nl. waters.

ShagRock
10-28-2009, 01:38 AM
Thanks for the feedback SB! There is a recent blog linked below that shows photos taken this year of a Jack boat in Arnold's Cove that was donated to the community..hopefully to turn into a restoration project.

I'd like to thank all you fellows for your generous input on helping a guy out with these old time sail rigs for inshore working craft! I'm with a mess of books and notes and no sailors handy to consult. That's the beauty of the WB forum via the internet..a great resource!

http://doodledaddle.blogspot.com/2009/06/arnolds-cove-jack-boat.html

martin schulz
10-28-2009, 05:16 AM
Well I always thought the term Dandy Rig refers to ketches/yawls/schooner that carry a gaff main and bermuda mizzen.

Here is (actually American) example. The Herreshoff schooner MISTRAL (now in Flensburg)

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/mistral.jpg

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-28-2009, 05:54 AM
On the other hand, I thought that the "dandy" rig (which, amusingly, gives us the French word "Dundee" for a fishing ketch) originated with the conversion of large cutter rigged cod smacks (known as "long boomers" for obvious reasons!) Into ketches when they were lengthened in the second half of the 19th century - very often the mizzen was lug rigged. .

ShagRock
10-28-2009, 06:21 AM
And I'm just learning! What Andrew talks about here is also covered by Nick (Peerie Mae) back in post #10. I'm still studying that one, lots of information packed in there..he must be a writer:)

In looking at fishing books in Greenhill's Inshore Craft, there are a few references to "Dandy Rig":
1. the beautiful ketch rigged Faroe Isles cod smack (very tall mizzen)
2. the cutter/sloop rigged Plymouth Hooker used for long-lining off shore and hand-lining inshore
3. a version of the famous (and much copied) Brixham trawler which the others have noted....a vessel that just emanates 'pure power'. Not positive, but is this one setting in the middle of the Brixham Harbour postcard posted by Skuthorp above??

P.S. By the way there is another 'dandy rig' not related to sail, but to a fancy Scottish hand line, that when compared to the single sinker & hook of the English was said by the Scots to be "a much smarter and prettier rig"!