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MiddleAgesMan
10-19-2009, 09:06 PM
While trying to sort out a problem with the drain side of my plumbing I discovered this house has no 3 or 4 inch vents for the two toilets that were part of the original construction. It appears the toilets are vented through smaller 2 inch vents that also vent the original bathrooms and kitchen sink.

This doesn't seem proper to me. Don't toilets require either 3 or 4 inch vents?

Edit to add--I've owned this place for 11 years with no sign of problems. I'd always assumed the first and second floor toilets were vented from a single 4 inch black iron pipe (and thought I remembered seeing such a pipe exiting the roof).

PeterSibley
10-19-2009, 09:13 PM
No shell fish is the main concern ,pigs are out , fish to have scales .Leviticus is the handbook .

MiddleAgesMan
10-19-2009, 09:15 PM
I don't think the Jewish-Seventh-day Adventist dietary rules apply in this situation, Peter. ;)

Oh! I get it! I used "kosher" in the title! Good one, Peter. :)

bobbys
10-19-2009, 09:25 PM
If your plumbing works and your wife is happy dont Q it

rddrappo
10-19-2009, 09:39 PM
Drain lines should be 4 inch, but 2 inch vents are fine. If the sinks drain without gurgling, the vents are ok. Since vents have to go through the wall framing, two inch is pretty much standard, except on commercial buildings. I haven't checked code on this in a while, though.

purri
10-19-2009, 09:43 PM
don't light a match.

paladin
10-19-2009, 09:50 PM
got a basement....I seem to recall a Chicago building, 20's or 30's.....not properly vented toilets, swamp gas accumulated in the basement along with coal dust. When cold weather hit they fired up the furnace for the first time and blew the three bottom floors of the building away, and a few people....a couple of famous personages were involved.

Kaa
10-19-2009, 09:51 PM
Don't forget to let your plumbing rest on Saturdays :D

Kaa

MiddleAgesMan
10-19-2009, 10:09 PM
Y'all aren't helping things at all, except for the laughs. :)

The problem is a gurgling kitchen sink when the powder room toilet is flushed. This process seems to be drawing all the water out of the sink's p-trap...bad odors abound until I run a little water to fill the trap. The vent that serves the first floor is easily accessible so I guess I'll try cleaning that out for starters.

The reason I assumed I had a four inch toilet vent is that I remodeled the powder room many years ago and found a large 4 inch iron pipe in the wall. The second floor bathroom is close above so I figured it, too, uses this large pipe. I guess I assumed that pipe ran on up through the roof.

rddrappo
10-19-2009, 10:11 PM
Ok, I checked IPC and a 2" vent seems to be good for up to 8 plumbing fixtures, and the vent has to be at least half the size of the waste line. Your toilet should have a 4" line, so a 2" vent could easily handle that, along with a bathroom sink and a shower.

rddrappo
10-19-2009, 10:17 PM
Try setting up the kitchen p-trap so it sits lower. Maybe use a tailpiece extension to drop it down several inches, and use a U instead of a regular P, basically build a deeper p-trap. Use 1 1/2" ABS and it's easy. Might make it harder for the water to be sucked out. Kind of hard to explain, hope this helps.

Paul Girouard
10-19-2009, 10:23 PM
The problem is a gurgling kitchen sink when the powder room toilet is flushed. This process seems to be drawing all the water out of the sink's p-trap...bad odors abound until I run a little water to fill the trap. The vent that serves the first floor is easily accessible so I guess I'll try cleaning that out for starters.

How far apart are these fixtures?

Generally a vent can't be more than 10 ' or so away from the fixture, so IF they are sharing that vent , which it seems likely as the K. sink gurgles when you flush the can in the P. Rm...

It seems odd that flushing a toilet could suck the water out of a P trap even if the fixtures are very close. Does the K. sink have a P trap that you can see inside the base cabinet?

The reason I assumed I had a four inch toilet vent is that I remodeled the powder room many years ago and found a large 4 inch iron pipe in the wall. The second floor bathroom is close above so I figured it, too, uses this large pipe. I guess I assumed that pipe ran on up through the roof.



That 4" pipe would be the drain line at least the way I read your post that 4" pipe is in a first floor wall. $hit flows down hill , that pipe would be the drain going down from the upstairs tur-let.

Generally ter-lets are vented in 3" or 4" pipe. A vent can run horizontal for quite a was but it can never go downward then back up chances are if it did it would hold water and that water would block the air flow.

There is a butt load of other rules to plumbing , but generally:

#1) $hit flows down hill.

#2) Payday is on Friday.

#3) Don't chew your finger nails.

MiddleAgesMan
10-19-2009, 10:30 PM
Yeah, the kitchen sink and powder room ter-let are probably about 10 feet apart, more or less. The pipe-run, however, would be more than that...maybe 15-18 feet.

I don't know where I came up with the idea that toilet vents had to be 3 or 4 inch. When I built the new master bath I used a four inch vent for that toilet and could have saved a few bucks using a smaller one.

This house is about 40 years old so I may have more than one problem but I'll start by clearing the vent that serves the powder room and kitchen.

Paul Girouard
10-19-2009, 10:42 PM
I bet your issues is the kitchen sink really has no vent and it's dirty armed over to the ter-let. When it really should have it's own vent. Reasons for that might be age / codes changed / etc .

A window over the sink made it "hard" to run a vent up in that area and / or windows /doors stuff directly above also made it "hard" to run a pipe up in that area.



You could maybe add a "Studer" vent directly under the K. sink.

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum/illustrations/2072-air-inlet-valve-studor-vent-installation.html

Might be a easy solution IF they are on a shared vent.

The Studer would break the suction from the ter-let flushing.

rddrappo
10-19-2009, 10:48 PM
Paul,

Good call. My plumber buddy told me about them under the sink vents a couple weeks ago. Neat setup. I didn't even think about it.

Paul Girouard
10-19-2009, 10:51 PM
Paul,

Good call. My plumber buddy told me about them under the sink vents a couple weeks ago. Neat setup. I didn't even think about it.



Inspectors don't like them much due to the some what mechanical nature , but they do allow them in island and other odd / hard to vent spots. MAM situation would seem to be a good place for one.

Captain Blight
10-19-2009, 11:00 PM
Definitely not kosher, might be halaal.

C. Ross
10-19-2009, 11:21 PM
Circumcise the 4" drainpipe, and you'll be good.

If you have an obstruction in the roof vent of the main vent stack (birds nest, etc) that'll cause the gurgle gurgle too...?

Nicholas Carey
10-20-2009, 12:19 AM
Inspectors don't like them [air admittance valves] much due to the some what mechanical nature , but they do allow them in island and other odd / hard to vent spots. MAM situation would seem to be a good place for one.
The IPC and IRC allow them. The UPC and other codes are silent on the matter-- they aren't specifically allowed, but they aren't specifically disallowed -- so the usual "alternate materiels/methods" clause applies. The National Plumbing Code of Canada allows their use only for


a) fixtures located in island counters,
b) fixtures that may be affected by frost closure of the vent due to local climatic conditions,
c) fixtures in one-and two-family dwellings undergoing renovation, or
d) installations where connection to a vent may not be practical.

http://www.studor.com/codes.htm

The inspector might need some re-edumacation about AAVs. If he doesn't like their mechanical nature, he probably won't like sump pumps, sewage ejection pumps, backflow prevention devices, check valves or pressure reducers, either.

Paul Girouard
10-20-2009, 01:11 AM
http://www.studor.com/codes.htm

The inspector might need some re-edumacation about AAVs. If he doesn't like their mechanical nature, he probably won't like sump pumps, sewage ejection pumps, backflow prevention devices, check valves or pressure reducers, either.



This is more like all the local jurisdiction I deal with around here , not one inspector. They allow them BUT they mention they aren't thier "first choice".


I'm just reporting on what I've heard them comment on on inspection reports / de- briefs.

I not the plumber , but the plumber son and I'll do the plumbing till the plumber comes.

Ah, not really, but it's a old rhyme one of my mentor's used to say.


BTW
How's that hot water tank thread coming? :D

MiddleAgesMan
10-20-2009, 06:33 AM
I bet your issues is the kitchen sink really has no vent and it's dirty armed over to the ter-let. When it really should have it's own vent. Reasons for that might be age / codes changed / etc .

A window over the sink made it "hard" to run a vent up in that area and / or windows /doors stuff directly above also made it "hard" to run a pipe up in that area.



You could maybe add a "Studer" vent directly under the K. sink.

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum/illustrations/2072-air-inlet-valve-studor-vent-installation.html

Might be a easy solution IF they are on a shared vent.

The Studer would break the suction from the ter-let flushing.

Having remodeled the kitchen right after I bought this place I know the sink there is vented. There's a window there so it runs a circuitous route over to the right, up, then right again out to the utility room where it is visible, then up through the roof. I don't know for sure the toilet is tied in to it and maybe it's not. It would make more sense for it to share the vent with the upstairs bath. That vent is also a 2 inch pipe exiting the roof at a much higher point.

I'm familiar with the Studer vents as I used them in the master bath I added.

John Smith
10-20-2009, 06:40 AM
Don't let working toilets mess with your head pun intended :p

seedtick
10-20-2009, 07:07 AM
If it worked for 11 years then quit working, it's not likely the routing of the pipes.

I'd bet that a critter has dropped acorns or some such in the existing vent pipe and plugged it up so it's not working. Get up on the roof and run a "snake" down the vents and see if that works

brad9798
10-20-2009, 08:08 AM
The problem is a gurgling kitchen sink when the powder room toilet is flushed.

If you would have mentioned that there was a problem in your first post, things would be different on this thread.

:)

Mike H
10-20-2009, 09:30 AM
The current issue of Finehomebuilding has an article on replacing a kitchen trap along with an air admittance valve.