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TimH
10-19-2009, 10:42 AM
For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it.

Rick-Mi
10-19-2009, 11:08 AM
For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it.


I blame left wing dominated public education.....



.

TimH
10-19-2009, 11:13 AM
Its Obamas fault.

James McMullen
10-19-2009, 11:23 AM
Idiocracy is a powerful and prescient movie. Achingly possible, I fear.

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 11:30 AM
been coming for a long time and it hasn't anything "directly" to do with level of formal education...

oznabrag
10-19-2009, 11:35 AM
Post #1: "For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it."
__________

been coming for a long time and it hasn't anything "directly" to do with level of formal education...

Huh? The OP was a statement explicitly about formal education.

TimH
10-19-2009, 11:38 AM
In a way Phillip is correct.
I think it has to do with the way kids have been raised over the last 30 years.
The lower education level attainment is a direct result of that.

Captain Blight
10-19-2009, 11:39 AM
The generation retiring from the workforce REARED the generation that's replacing it. If there is any fault to be laid, lay it at their feet.

They're the ones who cried about teacher salaries, who directed school boards to slash costs, who didn't read to their children when they were little, who didn't force them to do their homework, who didn't believe that education isn't the filling of a vessel-- it's the lighting of a fire.

No dodging this or wriggling out of it. There is only way way to point this finger.

hokiefan
10-19-2009, 11:43 AM
I blame the parents. There's lots of problems with the schools in my opinion, but the parents make it acceptable for the kids to be slack. And blame it on the schools for not educating them. Fact is an education is not given to you, you have to acquire it. And I'm not just talking about formal education, but any education. Did anyone give Jim Ledger the knowledge and ability to do the amazing things he's doing on his catboat? No, he went out and acquired it from many sources and a lot of hard work.

I hear parents all the time talk about how they don't think the kids should have to do as much homework as they are given. So they don't make them do it. And wonder why their grades stink. We agree about the homework load, but fact is thats the price of admission to the future my kids want. So we make them do it. Hasn't always been easy or peaceful, but they've accepted it now. My daughter just takes care of business, quite well I'll say proudly. My son needs a little push and a questioning reminder, but he gets it done pretty well. Most of the credit goes to my wife, but fact is we made them work and learn to use their ability. Most kids need the pushing, and all too many of them aren't getting it.

My $0.02 for what its worth.

Edited to add - Sir Blight said mostly the same thing, much more succinctly.

Cheers,

Bobby

bob winter
10-19-2009, 11:45 AM
They're the ones who cried about teacher salaries, who directed school boards to slash costs, who didn't read to their children when they were little, who didn't force them to do their homework, who didn't believe that education isn't the filling of a vessel-- it's the lighting of a fire.



They are also ones who stopped disciplining their children and let them get away with blue murder.

John Smith
10-19-2009, 11:51 AM
In a way Phillip is correct.
I think it has to do with the way kids have been raised over the last 30 years.
The lower education level attainment is a direct result of that.
Actually, I haven't seen a link making this case.

Second, I suspect there are more college graduates today than their used to be, which says one thing.

Third, I think we have more misinformed people than we used to have because of a failing in our news media.

When I was younger, the news was not expected to make money; networks kind of ate the expense as a public service. Those days are gone, and "news" has become more entertaining and less informative.

We also have a lot of talking heads on "news" stations that don't consider themselves as reporters or jounalists, and have no need for accurate facts.

We've also seen the power of Madison Avenue on politics.

If there is a dumbing down, I think it's the apparent lack of newer generations to think and ask questions.

Gonzalo
10-19-2009, 11:58 AM
For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it. First of all, is this even true? What I keep hearing is that more kids are going to college and grad school than ever before--especially girls--and that the premium in terms of higher salaries is greater than ever before.

What is the evidence for this statement?

Among my family members it is a mixed bag. Some kids I know are forgoing higher education, but most others are graduating from college and several others have gone on to graduate and professional degrees. In my daughter's high school the vast majority went on to college.

Uncle Duke
10-19-2009, 11:59 AM
For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it.
I'd be very interested in some link demonstrating this.... does it simply count grade levels or actual knowledge acquired, for example?

George.
10-19-2009, 12:00 PM
Blame the dumber half. They thought they could self-govern. For eight long years, they tried - the whole world is paying the price.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-19-2009, 12:01 PM
I'm proud to say that the British Government have taken steps to prevent this...;)

First, the pass rate in all national exams is higher every year, though when schoolchildren are given papers from the 1960's they tend to fail them...

Next, every polytechnic and cow college is now a "University" and grants degrees in hairdressing and telephone sanitizing.

So we're safe. :rolleyes:

TimH
10-19-2009, 12:03 PM
I went to a presentation given by David Brooks a few days ago. He spoke about this.

http://www.celebrityforum.net/

The Foothill College Celebrity Forum Speaker Series has announced its schedule for the 2009-2010 season.
The series, voted best in the nation by the International Platform Association, was founded in 1968 by former Foothill College Dean Richard Henning, who serves as moderator.
The forum celebrates its 41st anniversary this year.
Scheduled speakers for the upcoming season include:
• Tom Friedman, Sept. 9-11. Friedman, author and Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist for The New York Times, will speak on the green revolution and how it is changing America.
• David Brooks, Oct. 14-16. Brooks, a conservative New York Times op-ed columnist, is a regular commentator on TV talk shows and panels.
etc...

Gonzalo
10-19-2009, 12:10 PM
http://www.celebrityforum.net/OK, so we have a link to a list of celebrity speakers. That doesn't prove a thing about education levels. If Mr. Brooks spoke about the younger generation having less education than their parents, what did he say about it, and what evidence did he produce?

Sorry, I can't accept it on your say-so, but I'm certainly willing to look at the evidence.

Mr. Brooks is a smart guy, and if he provided some evidence it is worth looking at.

TimH
10-19-2009, 12:13 PM
LOL. He didnt provide evidence. Nobody there questioned his sources.

TimH
10-19-2009, 12:18 PM
Here is a link to a paper from 2000 talking about it if it makes you feel better Gonzalo:

Substantial increases in those segments of America’s young population with the lowest level of education, combined with the coming retirement of the baby boomers—the most highly educated generation in U.S. history—are projected to lead to a drop in the average level of education of the U.S. workforce over the next two decades, unless states do a better job of raising the educational level of all racial/ethnic groups.

http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/hiedfuture/reports/equity.pdf

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 12:24 PM
I'm proud to say that the British Government have taken steps to prevent this...;)

First, the pass rate in all national exams is higher every year, though when schoolchildren are given papers from the 1960's they tend to fail them...

Next, every polytechnic and cow college is now a "University" and grants degrees in hairdressing and telephone sanitizing.

So we're safe. :rolleyes:

it's about the corporate bottom line (read as education industry)

Rick-Mi
10-19-2009, 12:31 PM
I think it has to do with the way kids have been raised over the last 30 years. The lower education level attainment is a direct result of that.


It's been a tad more than 30 years, but thank you Madeline Murray O'Hare, Dr Spock, progressive education and the Great Society.....

G.Sherman
10-19-2009, 12:38 PM
This is the result of teaching the lowest possible standards for the lowest common denominator . Failure has ceased to be an option, even for the incredibly stupid or lazy. Too much "feel good" and not enough "work hard"..... our children have been coddled into believing they are "special", "deserving" and just so damn cute....

Nicholas Scheuer
10-19-2009, 12:44 PM
Inevetible for a society that debates the efficacy homework from school and considers McDonalds a good choice for food.

Moby Nick

Nicholas Scheuer
10-19-2009, 12:45 PM
Anybody dumb enough to blame Obama or the Dems ought to be looking in a mirror for the real cause.

Moby Nick

John Smith
10-19-2009, 12:51 PM
It's been a tad more than 30 years, but thank you Madeline Murray O'Hare, Dr Spock, progressive education and the Great Society.....

To the extent that there is merit in the thread statement, one can go back to Reagan's "Thorough and Efficient Education" which was neither.

It created a series of problems for the teachers with no solutions. This created more multiple choice tests, and fewer essays.

It was the birth of teaching to a test, rather than teaching the children.

My eldest was in 3rd grade then, and her teacher explained to me the problems this program had caused her.

Meanwhile, I continue to address the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Or knowledge and misinformation.

You've also had a parallel over these years of latch key kids; if they have two parents, both are working. Wider variety of home entertainment that's a lot more tempting than homework.

Lots of factors.

Personally, I think education started going to hell when the NFL began playing on artificial grass.

Gonzalo
10-19-2009, 12:56 PM
TimH, thanks for the link. I'll study it.

At first glance, the report says that minorities as a percentage of the work force are growing faster than better-educated whites, and that those minorities have lower levels of educational attainment than whites. Clearly, there is an education gap between population groups.

The report also says that educational attainment is increasing in all groups, but in some minority groups it is increasing less than the growth of those minority groups in the population.

For years, U.S. immigration policy has encouraged immigration of less-well educated minorities. It stands to reason that the educational achievement of the children of the less well-educated parents will lag those of more educated parents. It has always been thus. In addition, schools have consistently failed to reach black children, for a variety of reasons. That may be worse today, but I doubt it. This is not the same as saying that the children of the baby boomers are achieving less well than their parents.

TimH
10-19-2009, 01:00 PM
I agree that there are many factors at play and it is hard to point the finger at any one thing.

The fact is that the result is the same. And the worst part is that while our education level has declined in other developed countries education levels have increased dramatically.

Gonzalo
10-19-2009, 01:06 PM
...every polytechnic and cow college is now a "University" and grants degrees in hairdressing and telephone sanitizing.Those students who once attended trade schools for hairdressing are now attending university? Trade schools offered specialized vocational instruction in far less than four years. Are those university students now receiving general coursework that goes beyond the specialized training where they would not have previously? If so, I'd say that points to higher educational achievement than formerly received by the vocational students, even if their degree is still vocational. If not, then the "university" title of their school is just window dressing, and they are still attending trade school with an inflated title. If we discount the silliness of title inflation, it doesn't sound as though anyone is any worse off than before.

Here in the U.S. students are getting degrees in "Golf Course Management" and "Hospitality Management." I certainly raise my eyebrows at the respectability of those degrees, but I am also fairly certain that there is a general educational content in any four-year degree that goes beyond those very utilitarian majors, just as the general educational content of my coursework went well beyond my more traditional major in Biology.

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 01:24 PM
Anybody dumb enough to blame Obama or the Dems ought to be looking in a mirror for the real cause.

Moby Nick

Oh, lighten up... :)

Dan Newton
10-19-2009, 01:45 PM
There's no use blaming a particular political party. My personal view, which may not be equated with reality, is that teacher's unions are partly to blame. Job security and benefits and tenure seem to count alot. Not to say there are not still some great teachers...

Another problem is the ever-increasing degree of specialization that's required of today's students. People have to be very narrowly focused just to look good on paper these days. This causes them to forgo the 'liberal arts'.

And I'll trot out my own favorite; the internet.

T. Traddles
10-19-2009, 01:50 PM
Here is an interesting piece from the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/education/18college.html

Kaa
10-19-2009, 02:16 PM
I find it cute how

"...projected to lead to a drop in the average level of education of the U.S. workforce over the next two decades."

turned into


For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it.

and everyone jumped into playing the blame game with gusto :D

Kaa

TimH
10-19-2009, 02:20 PM
That paper was from 10 years ago Kaa.

I saw David Brooks a few days ago. All he did was confirm what that paper predicted is coming to pass.

He is a conservative though. Maybe he is full of $hit.

Kaa
10-19-2009, 02:22 PM
That paper was from 10 years ago Kaa.

And did that projection turn out to be true?

Kaa

TimH
10-19-2009, 02:25 PM
And did that projection turn out to be true?

Kaa

According to David Brooks - yes. It is coming true right now.

TimH
10-19-2009, 02:27 PM
“America’s lead over its economic
rivals has been entirely forfeited,
with many nations surging ahead
in school attainment. … The skills
slowdown is the biggest issue
facing the country. … [t]his slowmoving
problem, more than any
other, will shape the destiny of
the nation.”

—David Brooks,

New York Times
columnist, 2008

from:
http://www.21stcenturyskills.org/documents/21st_century_skills_education_and_competitiveness_ guide.pdf



David Brooks wrote a column in the New York Times that clearly showed the connection
between middle-class security and educational attainment. Brooks noted that:
• Between 1870 and 1950, the average American’s level of education rose by 0.8 years per
decade;
• In 1950, no European country enrolled 30 percent of its older teens in full-time secondary
school. In the United States, 70 percent of older teens were in school.
• By 1960, the level of education in this country was nearly 14 years.
Brooks asserts, and most of us would agree, that those were years of growth and prosperity in
the United States. However, Brooks wrote, “high school graduation rates peaked in the United
States in the late 1960s, at about 80 percent. Since then they have declined.”
The educational and skills attainment of the American workforce is not keeping pace with the
rest of the world. As a result, employers across a range of employment sectors–manufacturing,
healthcare, energy, automotive and construction among others—report that skills shortages are
significantly impacting our abilities to compete, produce and meet customer demands. This
human-capital performance gap has emerged as our nation’s most critical long-term business
issue.


-reference (http://archive.metalformingmagazine.com/2008/12/ajax.pdf)

Kaa
10-19-2009, 02:34 PM
According to David Brooks - yes. It is coming true right now.

I'd like to see some sources :-)

Mind you, I'm not saying this is impossible -- it's entirely normal for the US to receive uneducated immigrants and then have their children be better and better educated. If the inflow of "fresh" immigrants is high it's quite possible for the average education level to decline. I would expect this to be one of standard anti-immigration arguments, though I don't find it convincing as the problem fixes itself.

I would also argue for the US skewing their immigration policy to let in more Ph.Ds and less fruit pickers, but that's a whole separate ball of string :-)

Kaa

TimH
10-19-2009, 02:41 PM
Conservative columnist David Brooks of the New York Times wrote Tuesday that “the biggest issue (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/opinion/29brooks.html) facing the country” is the national “skills slowdown” that has resulted from stagnant or modest educational gains since 1970.
Citing Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz’s book The Race Between Education and Technology (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/GOLRAC.html), Brooks writes that while the U.S. experienced unparalleled educational growth for nearly a century, that growth slowed dramatically after 1970. This allowed nations around the world to catch up and, says Brooks, cost America its lead in the global economy.
Brooks suggests that the U.S. place a new emphasis on boosting educational attainment and fostering “human capital.” To that end, the conservative Brooks highlights Sen. Barack Obama’s ideas on early childhood education, while admitting that “Republicans are inept when talking about human capital policies.”

Link (http://www.edwize.org/david-brooks-says-education-is-the-biggest-issue)


If you want his sources then write him an email.

Kaa
10-19-2009, 02:45 PM
If you want his sources then write him an email.

You said in your own words without quotes or attribution or any reference:


For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it.

What are your sources?

Kaa

TimH
10-19-2009, 02:45 PM
If the inflow of "fresh" immigrants is high it's quite possible for the average education level to decline. I would expect this to be one of standard anti-immigration arguments, though I don't find it convincing as the problem fixes itself.

Kaa

While it has been a couple of years now since I got my BS in computer science from the University of Washington I can tell you first hand that our universities are not filled with American born students. They are quite the minority actually.
And now the foreign students go back to their own countries rather than stay here like they used to.

TimH
10-19-2009, 02:49 PM
You said in your own words without quotes or attribution or any reference:



What are your sources?

Kaa

Do you give references for every bit of information you parrot? Or were you simply born omniscient?

mmd
10-19-2009, 02:49 PM
I wonder why anybody bothers to cite any sources here, as when done, they are only discredited, disabused, and dismissed.

How about, 'cause I said so!

bobbys
10-19-2009, 02:51 PM
Anybody dumb enough to blame Obama or the Dems ought to be looking in a mirror for the real cause.

Moby Nick.

I peeked in the mirror but all i saw wuz a goodlooking guy!!.

Well maybe not THAT goodlooking.

Ok sorta a pug ..

Im no JOE!!!!

Kaa
10-19-2009, 02:52 PM
Do you give references for every bit of information you parrot?

If asked to, I will generally supply references to points of fact that I claim. If I can't do so, I will cheerfully (sometimes :D) admit it.


Or were you simply born omniscient?

Well, that too, but I really can't hold you to the same standard... :D

Kaa

john welsford
10-19-2009, 03:07 PM
This is interesting to watch from the outside. I have a strong impression that India, China and the other south east Asian countries are very quickly improving their education systems and will soon be turning out huge numbers of very well educated young people. Especially in the technical areas whereas Western Society seems to be producing an awful lot of social science graduates.


As someone whos had the privelege of teaching at University, and who has a wife whos masters degree is in education and has a daughter part way through her degree as an adult student I have experience of our New Zealand education system from all points of view, and it has lead me to the belief that " School is the place where smart people learn the tools which which they can then go out and educate themselves".

John Welsford





For the first time in American history the generation retiring from the workforce has a higher level of education than the generation replacing it.

Kaa
10-19-2009, 03:09 PM
" School is the place where smart people learn the tools which which they can then go out and educate themselves".

Yep, that sounds about right :-)

Kaa

John Smith
10-19-2009, 03:17 PM
This is the result of teaching the lowest possible standards for the lowest common denominator . Failure has ceased to be an option, even for the incredibly stupid or lazy. Too much "feel good" and not enough "work hard"..... our children have been coddled into believing they are "special", "deserving" and just so damn cute....
I'm going to disagree here from my own experiences.

When my granddaughter was in first grade, it was recommended that she repeat the year, rather than go on to second grade. We agreed, and the little girl sighed a huge sigh of relief. Three other kids were similarly recommended, but their parents wouldn't hear of it.

Kind of hard to blame the schools if those kids are in above their heads.

Next, having played a variety of trivia and history games with the grandkids, they certainly seem to be learning something. In areas where they've studied, like the War of Independence, they knew a lot of answers.

I, Rowboat
10-19-2009, 03:18 PM
The generation retiring from the workforce REARED the generation that's replacing it. If there is any fault to be laid, lay it at their feet.

They're the ones who cried about teacher salaries, who directed school boards to slash costs, who didn't read to their children when they were little, who didn't force them to do their homework, who didn't believe that education isn't the filling of a vessel-- it's the lighting of a fire.

No dodging this or wriggling out of it. There is only way way to point this finger.

On the other hand, know-nothing evangelical christianity has made a big comeback. I'm sure there's no connection. At least they provided for their and their children's eternal salvation. All that faggy book-lernin' won't get you into Heaven.

hokiefan
10-19-2009, 03:23 PM
"School is the place where smart people learn the tools which which they can then go out and educate themselves".

John Welsford

Kaa beat me to it, but I like this line. When I was in engineering school, the professors routinely told us, "We are not teaching you how to do your job. We are teaching you how to learn how to do your job." That must have been part of Va Tech's culture for a long time, because my Dad remembered hearing the same thing when he was there, and he graduated in 1955. Would love to have asked my Mother's father, he was class of 1922.

Cheers,

Bobby

TimH
10-19-2009, 04:24 PM
From a 2005 Businessweek article (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_47/b3960108.htm):

But now, for the first time ever, America's educational gains are poised to stall because of growing demographic trends. If these trends continue, the share of the U.S. workforce with high school and college degrees may not only fail to keep rising over the next 15 years but could actually decline slightly, warns a report released on Nov. 9 by the National Center for Public Policy & Higher Education, a nonprofit group based in San Jose, Calif. The key reason: As highly educated baby boomers retire, they'll be replaced by mounting numbers of young Hispanics and African Americans, who are far less likely to earn degrees.
Because workers with fewer years of education earn so much less, U.S. living standards could take a dive unless something is done, the report argues. It calculates that lower educational levels could slice inflation-adjusted per capita incomes in the U.S. by 2% by 2020. They surged over 40% from 1980 to 2000.

The Center's projections are especially alarming in light of the startling educational gains so many other countries are achieving. U.S. high school math and reading scores already rank below those of most of the advanced economies in Europe and Asia. Now education is exploding in countries such as China and India. There are nearly as many college students in China as in the U.S. Within a decade, the Conference Board projects, students in such countries will be just as likely as those in the U.S. and Europe to get a high school education. Given their much larger populations, that should enable them to churn out far more college graduates as well. More U.S. white-collar jobs will then be likely to move offshore, warns National Center President Patrick M. Callan. "For the U.S. economy, the implication of these trends is really stark," he says.

Callan's projections are based on the growing diversity of the U.S. population. As recently as 1980, the U.S. workforce was 82% white. By 2020, it will be just 63% white. Over this 40-year span, the share of minorities will double, to 37%, as that of Hispanic workers nearly triples, to 17%. The problem is, both Hispanics and African Americans are far less likely to earn degrees than their white counterparts. If those gaps persist, the number of Americans age 26 to 64 who don't even have a high school degree could soar by 7 million, to 31 million, by 2020.

This article came out before the recent implosion.
The good news is now baby boomers cant afford to retire so our numbers will look better for longer.

I, Rowboat
10-19-2009, 04:28 PM
Kaa beat me to it, but I like this line. When I was in engineering school, the professors routinely told us, "We are not teaching you how to do your job. We are teaching you how to learn how to do your job." That must have been part of Va Tech's culture for a long time, because my Dad remembered hearing the same thing when he was there, and he graduated in 1955. Would love to have asked my Mother's father, he was class of 1922.

Cheers,

Bobby

Yep, same at Colorado School of Mines and the college of engineering at Oregon State University. The goal was to give the basic tools that we'd need in the future (mathematics, physics, chemistry, technical writing, systems logic, etc.) and a bunch of examples of how they could be applied; it was understood that how these tools would and could be applied to the solution of any particular situation would be at the discretion and responsibility of the newly graduated young professional, who would also, presumably, receive a good deal of mentoring from his/her elder colleagues.

George.
10-20-2009, 05:43 AM
I would also argue for the US skewing their immigration policy to let in more Ph.Ds and less fruit pickers

Problem is, once that immigrant PhD gets the cushy research job and the McMansion in the exurbs that drew him to America, the next thing he requires is a couple of fruit pickers to do his lawn and laundry.

I, Rowboat
10-20-2009, 08:47 AM
Problem is, once that immigrant PhD gets the cushy research job and the McMansion in the exurbs that drew him to America, the next thing he requires is a couple of fruit pickers to do his lawn and laundry.

Hmm. Where I work, we've hired three geotechnical engineering PhDs from foreign lands in the past two years. They come from Iran, Turkey, and Hong Kong. As far as I know, none of them live in McMansions or has hired a crew of groundkeepers.

Kaa
10-20-2009, 09:41 AM
Problem is, once that immigrant PhD gets the cushy research job and the McMansion in the exurbs that drew him to America, the next thing he requires is a couple of fruit pickers to do his lawn and laundry.

I don't see that as a problem :-)

Kaa

JimD
10-20-2009, 10:04 AM
How educated do you have to be to stock shelves at Walmart or flip burgers at McDonalds? Sure, you still need a university degree to be a barrista at Starbucks, but despite the common perception there's only so many Starbucks.

cookie
10-20-2009, 12:18 PM
From a 2005 Businessweek article (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_47/b3960108.htm):

But now, for the first time ever, America's educational gains are poised to stall because of growing demographic trends. If these trends continue, the share of the U.S. workforce with high school and college degrees may not only fail to keep rising over the next 15 years but could actually decline slightly, warns a report released on Nov. 9 by the National Center for Public Policy & Higher Education, a nonprofit group based in San Jose, Calif. The key reason: As highly educated baby boomers retire, they'll be replaced by mounting numbers of young Hispanics and African Americans, who are far less likely to earn degrees.
Because workers with fewer years of education earn so much less, U.S. living standards could take a dive unless something is done, the report argues. It calculates that lower educational levels could slice inflation-adjusted per capita incomes in the U.S. by 2% by 2020. They surged over 40% from 1980 to 2000.

The Center's projections are especially alarming in light of the startling educational gains so many other countries are achieving. U.S. high school math and reading scores already rank below those of most of the advanced economies in Europe and Asia. Now education is exploding in countries such as China and India. There are nearly as many college students in China as in the U.S. Within a decade, the Conference Board projects, students in such countries will be just as likely as those in the U.S. and Europe to get a high school education. Given their much larger populations, that should enable them to churn out far more college graduates as well. More U.S. white-collar jobs will then be likely to move offshore, warns National Center President Patrick M. Callan. "For the U.S. economy, the implication of these trends is really stark," he says.

Callan's projections are based on the growing diversity of the U.S. population. As recently as 1980, the U.S. workforce was 82% white. By 2020, it will be just 63% white. Over this 40-year span, the share of minorities will double, to 37%, as that of Hispanic workers nearly triples, to 17%. The problem is, both Hispanics and African Americans are far less likely to earn degrees than their white counterparts. If those gaps persist, the number of Americans age 26 to 64 who don't even have a high school degree could soar by 7 million, to 31 million, by 2020.

This article came out before the recent implosion.
The good news is now baby boomers cant afford to retire so our numbers will look better for longer.

In Europe people are complaining about the diminishing IQ/ knowledge/talents of the younger generations as well. Not sure what's causing it though. Spending too much time on a computer doing simple/dumb stuff is sometimes given as an explanation.

Kaa
10-20-2009, 12:22 PM
In Europe people are complaining about the diminishing IQ/ knowledge/talents of the younger generations as well.

I've heard the archeologists digging up the ancient Sumer found a clay tablet which said that the youth are stupid, disrespectful of their elders, up to no good, and that the world is going to hell in a handbasket fast :D

Kaa

JimD
10-20-2009, 12:28 PM
In Europe people are complaining about the diminishing IQ/ knowledge/talents of the younger generations as well. Not sure what's causing it though. Spending too much time on a computer doing simple/dumb stuff is sometimes given as an explanation.

People are like electricity always following the path of least resistance. There are more ways to be mindless than ever before.

TomF
10-20-2009, 01:17 PM
I would also argue for the US skewing their immigration policy to let in more Ph.Ds and less fruit pickers, but that's a whole separate ball of string :-)

KaaErr, pretty much every developed country is chasing the same hyper-educated immigrant. About 10 years ago, I worked in a policy area connected to labour market issues and immigration ... we were all chasing the same people then too.

The great irony is that my country, at least, was largely settled and built by precisely the kinds of people we'd routinely now turn away. It was an agricultural and forestry-based society then though, with very different skills needs ...

... but the US' experience with illegal immigrants crossing into the US to find work ... suggests that the differences aren't quite so marked as one might at first believe. There's clearly a market for what they have to offer, just not a legal and swift way for them to get to where they can offer it.

cookie
10-20-2009, 01:20 PM
:D Yeah, complaining about younger generations is of all times (and cultures).
In this case however it is backd up by studies showing that graduates have on average a lower IQ than 10 or 20 yrs ago. :eek:

Shang
10-20-2009, 02:07 PM
"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of
today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for
parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as
if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is
foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."

--Peter the Hermit, 1274, A.D.

Frank Wentzel
10-20-2009, 02:20 PM
For what its worth, the highschool graduation rate in Florida is approximately 50%. To say that most kids are going on to college (or University) when 50% haven't graduated from high school seems rather unlikely.

I'm sure finances play a big part as well. When I went to college in 1964 the tuition at a private college (St. Joseph's in Philadelphia) was $1,600 a year - 1280 times the minimum wage. It is now over $33,000 - 4600 times the minimum wage. Virtually everyone who asked for it could get a $400/year State Scholarship from New Jersey (my home state). College loans were easily available from the Feds at 3% and interest didn't kick in till a year after graduation. Loan payments were deferred or forgiven if you went into teaching or the military. I made $2.70 an hour (twice minimum wage) during the summers working in a hole-in-the-wall factory. College was financially really quite do-able. I think it is much more difficult today.

/// Frank ///

James McMullen
10-20-2009, 02:33 PM
What was the high school graduation rate in 1909? 50% would have been seen as amazing only a hundred years ago. Here's a chart I found:

http://voteview.ucsd.edu/images/High_School_Graduation_Rates.jpg

John Smith
10-20-2009, 02:46 PM
I've heard the archeologists digging up the ancient Sumer found a clay tablet which said that the youth are stupid, disrespectful of their elders, up to no good, and that the world is going to hell in a handbasket fast :D

Kaa
This is quite true, at least in spirit.

We never did any of the dumb things today's kids do, except when we're telling them we've tried everything, so they cant' get away with it.

TimH
10-20-2009, 02:46 PM
back then the world was a different place. The US had virtually no competition from overseas.

James McMullen
10-20-2009, 11:36 PM
http://bl135w.blu135.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http://65.55.174.167/att/GetAttachment.aspx&hm__qs=file%3d6da944b8-cb51-4525-9b56-c15ff60f28c3.jpg%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvanBlZw_3d_3d%26nam e%3daW1hZ2UwMTMuanBn%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empt y%3dFalse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253aimage013.jpg%254001C6 CDB5.10D7CA70&oneredir=1&ip=10.4.24.8&d=d3842&mf=0&a=01_bbb1a568def254f89594c8b5251e7deec7411fc6dcfc4 af57f4eace1403a3226

James McMullen
10-20-2009, 11:40 PM
http://bl135w.blu135.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http://65.55.174.167/att/GetAttachment.aspx&hm__qs=file%3d02d840c5-66ee-4d85-aa16-f2b65bdf6540%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvanBlZw_3d_3d%26name%3d QVRUMDAwMDg_3d%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empty%3dFa lse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253a059501c70994%252437ee6a90%2 5244F994602%2540D7L26071&oneredir=1&ip=10.4.24.8&d=d3842&mf=0&a=01_bbb1a568def254f89594c8b5251e7deec7411fc6dcfc4 af57f4eace1403a3226

Paul Girouard
10-20-2009, 11:42 PM
http://bl135w.blu135.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http://65.55.174.167/att/GetAttachment.aspx&hm__qs=file%3d02d840c5-66ee-4d85-aa16-f2b65bdf6540%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvanBlZw_3d_3d%26name%3d QVRUMDAwMDg_3d%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empty%3dFa lse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253a059501c70994%252437ee6a90%2 5244F994602%2540D7L26071&oneredir=1&ip=10.4.24.8&d=d3842&mf=0&a=01_bbb1a568def254f89594c8b5251e7deec7411fc6dcfc4 af57f4eace1403a3226

Two Red X posts in a row, posts 66 / 67? James are you showing / leading the way to the "Dumbing down of America"?

James McMullen
10-20-2009, 11:56 PM
They show up on my screen, Paul. What operating system are you using incorrectly?

Paul Girouard
10-21-2009, 12:16 AM
They show up on my screen, Paul.

I've read here that can happen as they are stored in your machine.




What operating system are you using incorrectly?



Could be my equipment , but if it is it's a glitz in the Op. system. not Op. error.

You maybe should re-do those links , maybe not.

Anyone else, do you see the photo's or Red X's?

James McMullen
10-21-2009, 12:26 AM
You know, it would be awfully ironic if it turned out I was too stupid to properly post my ironic pictures of people acting stupid. I think I'll just leave them just as they are as that is even funnier than the pictures were.

TimH
10-21-2009, 12:36 AM
I see red x's

ishmael
10-21-2009, 08:09 AM
In my experience there has been a loss of rigor in American schools. My dear departed brother, twelve years older, and I went through the same American public school system. He was reading Roman philosophers in the original Latin, whereas I was subjected to a weird mileu of nascent feminist theory about the evils of capitalism, and revisionist history. There was still some rigor. As a member of an advanced placement class in calculus I was in my seat forty five minutes before the bell rang. Funny, I couldn't do calculus now if you held a gun to my head, but I still remember a teacher of American history both my brother and I shared. He bucked the changes, taught what he always taught, and was so good at it they left him alone. He was good because he taught in the classic Socratic method of question and answer. Don't just read the text and pass the quiz, go to the library, dig, look.

isla
10-21-2009, 08:29 AM
What was the high school graduation rate in 1909? 50% would have been seen as amazing only a hundred years ago. Here's a chart I found:

http://voteview.ucsd.edu/images/High_School_Graduation_Rates.jpg

I would love to see the last 15 years displayed on this chart, because it looks like the trend peaked in the 50s/60s and is now heading down, which supports the original post.

I blame it on lack of reading.

Robert L.
10-22-2009, 12:35 PM
By: James McMullen
You know, it would be awfully ironic if it turned out I was too stupid to properly post my ironic pictures of people acting stupid. I think I'll just leave them just as they are as that is even funnier than the pictures were.

James, I am not seeing them here either, and while I might not have as in-depth a knowledge of boating as I would like, I am fairly confident that I am using my computer correctly.

Several possible causes come to mind.

1. You screwed up. - the verdict is still out.

2. Your hosting sites server has finally rebelled at trying to run Microsoft-IIS/6.0 on Linux. I am not sure why anybody would do that other than a new boss coming in the door dictating that Microsoft products will be used. (A couple years back there was much embarrassment in Redmond when it was revealed that quite a bit of Microsoft's own web site was running on Unix/Linux based web server, can't remember for sure but probably Apache. - Nope server still appears to be working

3. The server that is actually hosting the images (65.55.174.167) is down and can't be pinged. - Well darn, that was only temporary, I can ping it now and still no images.

4. The url is resolving to a page that needs a username and password. This could be due to a change in the setup on the image server, or your browser has saved the log-on credentials in a cache or cookie or something similar and logs you on automatically without your intervention, which is why you see it and others don't, or the image could even be loading from your browsers cache. Either way you wouldn't know that there is a problem. - This sort of points us back to #1 but you would be in good company as this is one of the more frequent types of issues I find when fixing websites for people who are supposed to know about these sorts of things.

Gonzalo
10-22-2009, 12:43 PM
I'm not seeing a red x or photo in either post, just James's signature under a blank post. Win XP pro, Firefox 3.5.3

Kaa
10-22-2009, 01:01 PM
You know, it would be awfully ironic if it turned out I was too stupid to properly post my ironic pictures of people acting stupid. I think I'll just leave them just as they are as that is even funnier than the pictures were.

Ah, irony :-)

Your image tags are:

<img src="http://bl135w.blu135.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http://65.55.174.167/att/GetAttachment.aspx&amp;hm__qs=file%3d6da944b8-cb51-4525-9b56-c15ff60f28c3.jpg%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvanBlZw_3d_3d%26nam e%3daW1hZ2UwMTMuanBn%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empt y%3dFalse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253aimage013.jpg%254001C6 CDB5.10D7CA70&amp;oneredir=1&amp;ip=10.4.24.8&amp;d=d3842&amp;mf=0 &amp;a=01_bbb1a568def254f89594c8b5251e7deec7411fc6dcfc 4af57f4eace1403a3226" border="0" alt="" />

and

<img src="http://bl135w.blu135.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http://65.55.174.167/att/GetAttachment.aspx&amp;hm__qs=file%3d02d840c5-66ee-4d85-aa16-f2b65bdf6540%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvanBlZw_3d_3d%26name%3d QVRUMDAwMDg_3d%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empty%3dFa lse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253a059501c70994%252437ee6a90%2 5244F994602%2540D7L26071&amp;oneredir=1&amp;ip=10.4.24.8&amp;d =d3842&amp;mf=0&amp;a=01_bbb1a568def254f89594c8b5251e7deec 7411fc6dcfc4af57f4eace1403a3226" border="0" alt="" />
Basically, you tried to display on the forum attachments to your email.

You probably should it consider it a good thing that other forum members can't read your email or see attachments to it... :-)

Kaa

James McMullen
10-22-2009, 02:57 PM
Thanks, Kaa. The more I think about it, the funnier it is that I failed to post them properly in a thread 'bout how much dumber people are getting. Look no further folks, I'm Exhibit A.

BrianY
10-22-2009, 03:01 PM
You guy's have this all wrong. It's not that kids are dumber today than in years past. It's that there's so much more stuff to learn. Think about it - 50 - 100 years ago there was less history to know and think of all the advancements in technology and math that have happened over that time. For example, did anyone in 1900 have to learn about the space race and rockets, the World Wars, Korea, Vietnam and remember the names all nine..er... 8 planets? No! Did they have to know how to use computers? No!
They had it so easy.

At this rate, in 100 years, kids will be unable to learn anything because there will be too many things to know! Imagine how stpupid they'll appear! i mean stoopid...er...stupyd....ummm....dumb.

TimH
10-22-2009, 03:56 PM
Here ya go James :)

http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/extinstruct_files/image002.gif

Captain Blight
10-22-2009, 05:50 PM
I hear ya, Brian, but most of that is taught at the high school level. Up to that point, kids should be able to read fluently in their mother tongue, know how to do basic geometry, be introduced to algebra, and know at least the broad outlines of history: The Romans, the Egyptians, the Sumerians, European expansion into the New World, and at least be made aware of how to use the Library of Congress system in the library. Is Dewey Decimal still in use? Don't think so. Maybe in a couple very small towns in the Dakotas.

Schools of yesteryear were, I think, better at teaching these subjects. That's why a person with an 8th-grade education 75 years ago was actually doing pretty well.

This is not to say I'm anti-education; far from it. But if we aren't going to stagnate as a society, parents have got to get better at their jobs and not expect the teachers to tote the entire load.

TimH
10-22-2009, 05:54 PM
Part of the problem is that the stupid people breed like rabbits and the smart people dont have many kids anymore.

hokiefan
10-22-2009, 06:03 PM
Part of the problem is that the stupid people breed like rabbits and the smart people dont have many kids anymore.

I had my school board representative tell me that one time. Except he used the words "they" and "us" instead of stupid and smart. I bet you can guess what he looked like. Rascist pig he was! Was gratifying to see him lose his seat when he was arrested for fraud.

Cheers,

Bobby

TimH
10-22-2009, 06:08 PM
I had my school board representative tell me that one time. Except he used the words "they" and "us" instead of stupid and smart. I bet you can guess what he looked like. Rascist pig he was! Was gratifying to see him lose his seat when he was arrested for fraud.

Cheers,

Bobby

There are plenty of stupid white people out there.

Stupid crosses all racial boundaries.

ishmael
10-22-2009, 06:22 PM
"Is Dewey Decimal still in use?"

No. I grew up with the Dewey Decimal, and the change to whatever they call it now was a bit irritating. The current system works OK, is pretty easy to use. I can usually find what I'm looking for in the card catalog, now all on computer. It still sorta amazes me that I can access it from where I sit right now.

Bangor has a great public library, and when I get turned around and can't find what I'm looking for, good reference librarians. That place is almost always busy when I go in there. A large public reading room is usually packed. Lending libraries are one of the glues which hold things together.

Saltiguy
10-22-2009, 06:24 PM
I read the book "The Bell Curve", years ago. The author explains how smart people marry smart people, and dumb people marry dumb people creating "classes" of intelligence. This happens much more commonly today than in the past, because the smart people end up in the top schools where they find eachother regardless of where they might have been born or raised. A very smart boy from a poor neighborhood in Baltimore might meet a very smart girl from a tiny town in Colorado ( for example) and they meet at Harvard, Yale, or......
Years ago, that smart girl would have married a boy from her tiny town and no one would even know how smart she was. Today, everyone is tested and sorted out. The brightest end up in common places.
The same can be said for "looks". Good looking people usually marry another good-looking person, and the ugly people find eachother.
The same can be said for wealth. They find eachother.
So, over time, you have these stratifications of all types.

Todd D
10-22-2009, 06:48 PM
having spent more than 20 years as a university professor I am quite comfortable saying that academic standards have declined and the willingness of students to work has also declined. In my classes, where I maintained standards, average grades declined steadily. At the same time average grades overall improved. One of the courses I taught an introductory course generally considered a "bird" course - i.e., an easy course to get a good grade in. I put a huge amount of time into that course including putting all of the content from the lectures on a course web page for the last few years. I also made sure that every question on the tests was covered in the book. Despite that, the percentage of students that actually failed the course rose steadily. Over the same time period, class attendance dropped steadily and text book sales (tracked by the university book store, also declined dramatically. The latter was not purely a fuinction of the used book market because I changed books every 4 years or so.

I saw these declines occuring in tandem with a dramatic increase in the breadth of knowledge required to be considered competent in my field. The result was that alshough we were turing out fresh faced B.S. degree holders with respectable grade point averages, the overall competence of the students declined over the years. Part of the problem was the absolutley dreadful preparation the students received in high school. Another part was that the students, on average, were unwilling to work and some of the problem was due to faculty who did the minimum when it came to teaching. Consequently, there is plenty of blame to go around.

oznabrag
10-22-2009, 07:10 PM
having spent more than 20 years as a university professor I am quite comfortable saying that academic standards have declined and the willingness of students to work has also declined... Consequently, there is plenty of blame to go around.

My dad was a university Professor for nearly 50 years, and he would agree with you completely. He felt very fortunate to teach Music Theory, because that's an area where ya juss cain' fake it. ;)

Captain Blight
10-22-2009, 07:37 PM
The same can be said for "looks". Good looking people usually marry another good-looking person, and the ugly people find eachother.
Ugliness has pretty well been bred out of the Caucasian population of Southern California.

Still alive and well in Minnesota.

brad9798
10-22-2009, 07:53 PM
Dewey Decimal System is still used around me ...