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Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 08:18 AM
she's 2 1/2 years old and already maybe 15 hands tall (just a guess) and she needs training...I have no one to put on her that is any more competent than me and mostly less so...I weigh 260 pounds and feel I might be too heavy for her at this age...any thoughts?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-18-2009, 08:28 AM
http://www.ponyandcarriage.co.uk/horse_and_carriage_driving_buy_carriages_new_and_u sed.htm

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/ponyandcarriage/Pony11hh15hhPresentationSpiderSportbreakModels#

Glen Longino
10-18-2009, 08:58 AM
..."Seriously...we're gettin' too old fer that..."

That's about what I wanted to say, but you said it better, Larry!:)
Listen to him, Phillip!

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 09:05 AM
we do that sort of stuff already...they're just pets at the moment. they've had saddles on and have been led around with light people on them and even ridden for maybe 15 min at a time by my son who weighs less but is now out of town...I have broke one horse in my life and it worked fine...she never threw me off but I did jump off a couple of times when she pitched over backwards (actually, I stepped off)

I'm just concerned about my wieght on young bones

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 09:06 AM
BTW Larry...I HAVE chaced horses all over the pasture till we were both in a muck sweat...maybe I'd lose weight finally :) (if it didn't kill me)

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 09:16 AM
I'm hoping to be able to work on her for about 30 min at a time

paladin
10-18-2009, 09:33 AM
Go slow, and alternate the sides that you put on the weight from. always go from side to side. The pony will become acclimated to being mounted from either side. You want a friend that will follow you around and not shy away. Keep a carrot in your pocket.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 09:36 AM
I agree with that and appreciate the advise...I just want to know how much weight is too much weight

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 10:15 AM
okay, okay...I've been talked outa climbin on...we'll keep doin the other stuff

paladin
10-18-2009, 11:02 AM
for the next year don't add too much weight, start slow and add a couple of pounds a month to start...go slowly.....don't add the bridle and Spanish bit for a while, use a hackamore.....

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 11:21 AM
we are using the hackamore...I've always had better luck with them

SMARTINSEN
10-18-2009, 11:24 AM
You could always go on a diet:)

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 11:29 AM
You could always go on a diet:)

I've tried to lose weight...it's very discouraging

SMARTINSEN
10-18-2009, 11:30 AM
That is why I put the :) I am getting a little pudgy myself.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 11:32 AM
That is why I put the :) I am getting a little pudgy myself.

I wasn't offended...I'm fat as a butcher hog...I hate it, I hate it, I hate it...but my mind (such as it is) just isn't in the right place...yet

paladin
10-18-2009, 12:23 PM
Have a heart attack...helluva way to lose weight but you'll drop it.......in a heartbeat......

Spin_Drift
10-18-2009, 12:36 PM
Teach her to pull a light cart while she is young. You will have nice drives and she'll have genuine work and rewards.

Most of our horses were trained to be ridden and driven. I had a light weight training cart to train race horses with.

This might be something for you. They can easily pull the cart and you in it for now and you could start riding her in a year or so.

I'll see if I can find picture in my files to show you what I mean.

.

Spin_Drift
10-18-2009, 12:59 PM
Here is Kalevala harnessing my Oscar Cape.

You can go to many places with this kind of a narrow (seats two) cart with tall wheels....

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Spin_Drift/HitchingOscar.jpg

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 01:06 PM
wonder what the proceedure is for training to cart...how do you convince the horse that something isn't chasing it

Bob Triggs
10-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Spinners advice was the best I saw here. You begin with basic handling and gentling, daily grooming helps, "sacking out" etc. Then move on to lungeing, then adding line driving with soft rope lines to each side- and you can use a hackamore or bozel to do this. You do not have to bit train the horse unless the horse ignores the nose pressure of hackamore or bozel. If you do bit train her use a soft large snaffle bit, for driving use cheeked snaffle. Then you move on to tacking the horse with the harness and bridle etc. And you teach her to drive with you walking along right up close behind her with just the harness rigged and no cart yet. Dont use blinders on her. If you are patient with her she will never need blinders. If you do this often- 30 minute sessions are perfect- and with no harshness or forcing nor punishments, she will come along fast. I have taken green halter broken horses from pasture to full harness and driving and riding with a saddle in less than a month. It can be done much faster if the horse really trusts you. Your state of mind is everyhing. If you have a training ring you can introduce the jog cart as a piece of the scene, always having it around, moving it around etc. Let the horse see the cart every day, all over the place, as something very normal to it's daily life. So that by the time you hook her up to it she has eaten treats from your hand while you were siting in the cart, and she walked long with you while you moved the cart etc. The race horse trainers do this much faster. A month is a real luxury. But I like going slow with them myself- Gentle, Patient, Firm. You have to buld trust over time. It helps to have a helper with the first days of your actually hooking her up to the cart, someone at her head, someone she knows. IMHO a 15 hand two and a half year old horse is ready for this kind of work, almost any kind of work within reason. And 250 lbs is not too much rider weight if you keep it to easy walk, trot, canter work the first six months. And if you care about the horse, or yourself, you lose some weight too.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 01:48 PM
Spinners advice was the best I saw here. You begin with basic handling and gentling, daily grooming helps, "sacking out" etc. Then move on to lungeing, then adding line driving with soft rope lines to each side- and you can use a hackamore or bozel to do this. You do not have to bit train the horse unless the horse ignores the nose pressure of hackamore or bozel. If you do bit train her use a soft large snaffle bit, for driving use cheeked snaffle. Then you move on to tacking the horse with the harness and bridle etc. And you teach her to drive with you walking along right up close behind her with just the harness rigged and no cart yet. Dont use blinders on her. If you are patient with her she will never need blinders. If you do this often- 30 minute sessions are perfect- and with no harshness or forcing nor punishments, she will come along fast. I have taken green halter broken horses from pasture to full harness and driving and riding with a saddle in less than a month. It can be done much faster if the horse really trusts you. Your state of mind is everyhing. If you have a training ring you can introduce the jog cart as a piece of the scene, always having it around, moving it around etc. Let the horse see the cart every day, all over the place, as something very normal to it's daily life. So that by the time you hook her up to it she has eaten treats from your hand while you were siting in the cart, and she walked long with you while you moved the cart etc. The race horse trainers do this much faster. A month is a real luxury. But I like going slow with them myself- Gentle, Patient, Firm. You have to buld trust over time. It helps to have a helper with the first days of your actually hooking her up to the cart, someone at her head, someone she knows. IMHO a 15 hand two and a half year old horse is ready for this kind of work, almost any kind of work within reason. And 250 lbs is not too much rider weight if you keep it to easy walk, trot, canter work the first six months. And if you care about the horse, or yourself, you lose some weight too.

thanks Bob...I'll foward this to my daughter...

I also believe in trust and being gentle...who wants to fight a big muscle with hair? :)

Bob Triggs
10-18-2009, 01:51 PM
thanks Bob...I'll foward this to my daughter...

I also believe in trust and being gentle...who wants to fight a big muscle with hair? :)


That would depend a lot upon which muscle...:D

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 01:58 PM
I remember a cowboy show...John Wayne I believe...where the good guys are chased up a canyon and make their get away across a gaint swinging bridge...I wonder just how that would likely work out in real life...trotting four horses across such a thing...seems very unlikely

Bob Triggs
10-18-2009, 02:09 PM
When I was a kid working at a horse farm and training center there was a great old guy there who taught me a lot of horsemanship skills. He had been a movie stunt double for Tom Mix after the studios would not let Tom do any more stunts- every bone had been broken and they could not get insurance for Tom any longer. You see a good horse stunt in the movies and tons of time went into it. It takes a huge investment of time for a trainer to get a horse to do some of those things, like jumping off of a tower into a tank of water or leaping off of a cliff. The bridge crossing too is all a matter of training, time and trust. They work with those horses every single day that they can.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 02:16 PM
When I was a kid working at a horse farm and training center there was a great old guy there who taught me a lot of horsemanship skills. He had been a movie stunt double for Tom Mix after the studios would not let Tom do any more stunts- every bone had been broken and they could not get insurance for Tom any longer. You see a good horse stunt in the movies and tons of time went into it. It takes a huge investment of time for a trainer to get a horse to do some of those things, like jumping off of a tower into a tank of water or leaping off of a cliff. The bridge crossing too is all a matter of training, time and trust. They work with those horses every single day that they can.

Oh I certainly understand that...I just meant in the "cowboy days" being portrayed in that movie...the stunt ...TIMES FOUR...is very unlikely...possible, yes...but not probable

Bob Triggs
10-18-2009, 02:20 PM
I will add here that if you or whoever is breaking this horse is not experienced in the techniques, it would be smart to get some good experienced help. Plenty of driving and riding clubs with experienced membership so often you do not have to pay someone for this. Geting the support of an experienced few hands can really help you to avoid some disasterous mistakes.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 02:25 PM
we've both ridden quit a lot in years past and so we know what is SUPPOSED to happen...I'm interested in doing this myself and so is my daughter...we'll cripple through

"don't teach them anything that will have to be UN-taught" is our mantra

these aren't meant to be show horses...just trail horses and pals

paladin
10-18-2009, 02:39 PM
Damn, Bob, youse is telling your age now...If'n I reckomembers Tom died in a car accident in 1939......:p
Kenneth Coker's dad, a friend of Granddads, was interim chief of the Seminoles. Kenneth was a class mate in school. He broke ponies for the nations.....quite a fun fellow to watch.
Phillip...if you start the horse with a small rider and bareback or blanket only, the hackamore is all you need. Teach the youngster to use her knees to guide the pony and eventually you won't need the bridle. It's a sloppy white mans way to force a horse to do something they don't want to do. When the horse feels the nudge, or command they know what to do and won't argue with you.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 02:42 PM
Damn, Bob, youse is telling your age now...If'n I reckomembers Tom died in a car accident in 1939......:p
Kenneth Coker's dad, a friend of Granddads, was interim chief of the Seminoles. Kenneth was a class mate in school. He broke ponies for the nations.....quite a fun fellow to watch.
Phillip...if you start the horse with a small rider and bareback or blanket only, the hackamore is all you need. Teach the youngster to use her knees to guide the pony and eventually you won't need the bridle. It's a sloppy white mans way to force a horse to do something they don't want to do. When the horse feels the nudge, or command they know what to do and won't argue with you.

a fine approach to my thinking...

you gonna come ride with us...you don't want to live forever do ya? :)

paladin
10-18-2009, 02:56 PM
With my back/neck etc....I won't get on a bicycle, much less a poor horse....my feet would touch the ground while sitting on her back....I would bring along an apple and carrot or two. Walela would come running from the pasture with my whistle, I'd open the gate, and she would follow me around like a puppy...drove my mother crazy. She learned to pick open the gate and would be waiting at the kitchen porch for me to come out on my way to school......there was always a carrot. Old Hershey, the kids walking hamburger, learned the same trick and would open the gate, and be waiting for the kids to head for the school bus....the grandparents would shush him back in...and he knew about what time the bus came in the evening, would open the gate and be waiting at the side of the road.....had the school bus driver on edge until she realized he was a pet......

Portland
10-18-2009, 04:08 PM
Philip , you are getting some good advise here !.
The reason I didn't mention harness driving as Spin has done is that you don't have the equipment or experience in driving , but thats what I'd be doing too , just light driving , and "dirt work".
I'd be like Chuck too , and not use a bit for a while , start with a hackamore , and then let the horse carry the bit for a while , while still using the hackamore , before using the bit.
Bob is right , but especially the last bit , about your lack of experience with driving.
A good ride/drive horse is a real asset , but its something you will have to learn first.
If you came to me for help , I'd get you doing dirt work with the filly , it would give her a purpose to what she is doing , and wouldn't do you any harm either.
But I've got adjustable for size and draught point collars and hames , which you should use.
And I'd teach you to drive my horses , and the art of driving.
And gradually you would ease in to driving your filly.
That would give you a skill that would enable you to stay around and work with horses , if thats what you want to do , and would make for a really handy "using" horse , that can be your partner for as long as you can keep going.
To me , that would be a "best case scenario".
The reality though is you don't have driving experience , or the equipment , so you need to devise something to work with what you have got.
Make up some sort of packing arrangement you can put over your saddle , and find a shifting job , firewood , bricks , something that can get you both working together.
And as Chuck said , go without the bit for a while yet.
As to age , forget the horse industries that are tainted by money , and thats probably all of them , and go to the experts , and you will see that you should be looking for work at 5 , maybe start working up to it at 4 , but like Chuck said , keep the bit out of the mouth as long as you can.
If you have the patience and self discipline to do that , at 5 you will have a well disciplined , eager to please horse , soft in the mouth , and able to do most anything.
If you want to try driving , go to "Recreational Equine Driving" , a Yahoo forum , and find yourself a mentor handy to you (hopefully) , and go on from there.
But I learnt a long time ago from a real horseman , that giving a young horse a job goes a long way to building a good working partnership , and work ethic.
The other thing is to take your time . Think of working a mare , not a filly.
Regards Rob J.

paladin
10-18-2009, 06:06 PM
Phillip, after grand dad passed away, the only one in the family to raise horses was my uncle Glenn over in Siloam Springs. He passed away about 10 years ago and Aunt Irma followed a couple of years later. I always detoured and had dinner or lunch there and spent the day with them on the way to Oklahoma City.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 06:08 PM
Phillip, after grand dad passed away, the only one in the family to raise horses was my uncle Glenn over in Siloam Springs. He passed away about 10 years ago and Aunt Irma followed a couple of years later. I always detoured and had dinner or lunch there and spent the day with them on the way to Oklahoma City.

I have begun to wonder if you're EVER gonna make it by here (Siloam is 26 mi due west of here)

Three Cedars
10-18-2009, 06:30 PM
Here is Kalevala harnessing my Oscar Cape.

You can go to many places with this kind of a narrow (seats two) cart with tall wheels....

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Spin_Drift/HitchingOscar.jpg

That looks like a sturdy horse . Any famous lineage going on there ?

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 06:39 PM
yep...that horse can be traced back to where it's ancestors had three toes

TimH
10-18-2009, 08:28 PM
Basic rule of thumb is a horse can carry 25% of its weight.

Unless she is a real stout 15 hands you are too big for her.

You need about a 1200lb horse (assuming normal tack weight)

Bob Triggs
10-18-2009, 10:05 PM
Damn, Bob, youse is telling your age now...If'n I reckomembers Tom died in a car accident in 1939......:p

Chuck, I was a kid in the 1960's and the old man who I mentioned was in his late seventies back then. So he was the right age for all of that. And I have an elderly friend now who's mom used to actually date Tom Mix!

Im still just a kid...:D

Philip, I think that working with your horse to develop the "family pet and trail riding friend" aspects is the healthiest way to own a horse. Even if you were skidding logs with her it would still be the best approach. You dont need a carriage and harness to teach her to line drive. You can rig a simple surcingle and soft rope reins and just walk along with her. Even simple line driving work develops a lot of contact, suppleness and balance in movement. And when you get to the saddle stage you can continue the work with line driving. But once you have done all of that for a while you will want to drive her in a real rig, even a simple jog cart. If you look around, ask farriers and vets about this as they know everyone, you will find someone to work on the driving stuff with. It is by no means mandatory. But it does do good things for the horse and rider/driver relationship that are very useful, and it is just plain old fun.

paladin
10-19-2009, 01:33 PM
Phillip....the simplest and easiest rig to help train the horse is a travois, my predecessors used them with domesticated dogs before horse were available, and then the horses were set up to make the drag. Then only small children and pregnant or old women rode the horses. .....and...you can start with a light load, and increase it a bit at a time. One small pony could haul an entire teepee and the families goods.

TimH
10-19-2009, 01:36 PM
Load her up too much (especially at her young age) and you will end up with a swayback.

What you do and how you apply training techniques to your young and still developing filly can/will come back later in life in such ways as a sway back, early onset of arthritis in hocks and knees, etc.. on the other hand, proper training, and use of exercises and techniques can equally produce a long term, solid, working life.

It might be a good investment to have a professional start her for you.

Here is an ancient link to my (now ex-wifes) paint filly.

http://www.pioneernet.net/hoehn/nikki.htm

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 01:51 PM
Phillip....the simplest and easiest rig to help train the horse is a travois, my predecessors used them with domesticated dogs before horse were available, and then the horses were set up to make the drag. Then only small children and pregnant or old women rode the horses. .....and...you can start with a light load, and increase it a bit at a time. One small pony could haul an entire teepee and the families goods.

and remember, the teepee was made of leather!

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 03:34 PM
I saw those bull riders crippling around...not me, thankyouverymuch

paladin
10-19-2009, 03:56 PM
Inola is off I 88 between Wagoner and Claremore.....it was one of the storage areas that my dad used for Oil field supplies out from Tulsa......Sister lives in Bixby.

paladin
10-19-2009, 04:21 PM
No...it was 30 years ago. Dad had a farm yard rented with a barn. He installed pipe racks for drill kellys and sucker rod/drill casings there. Sometimes the barn was used to store mud pumps and other large heavy objects. Dad retired sorta after an accident in the mid 70's/early 70's and ran the operation from home until the late 80's. Then sold out to Warren Bradshaw exploration for bare retirement money.
I had been in the service starting in 1958 so wasn't involved.

paladin
10-19-2009, 05:02 PM
Bobby, a black fox in the eatern (Okla) Cherokee dialect is Inali, pronounced ee nah lee.......I would assume that Inola is a variation on the word, although I didn't think about it when you made the statement....Inali is for a black fox, a nother fox, regardless of color would be tsu la (phonetically) and in English speech, joo la.
and sorry Phillip.......

TimH
10-19-2009, 05:18 PM
Phillip is probably out there laying in the pasture someplace :)

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 05:35 PM
okay, I'm back...I was out giving the neighbor a hard time while he is pounding nails on his new roof :)

I'll go back to see what everybody's sorry for n a bit...

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 05:36 PM
what? thread drift?...who cares? I'm not so anal that I want to control good conversation...

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 05:42 PM
his shed needed a new roof real bad...30 years ago...he keeps hitting the nails and the nail hits nothing but punk...

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 06:21 PM
I think so too :D

Hey Bobby... Have you ever rode a mule?

Mules are smart critter... it can be riden just like horse..
In any cases.. the mule don't like what on its back... like a stranger, or just plainly ticked off... instead buckin' ya off, it tries rub ya off against the tree, buildings, or fence posts... Had that happened to me before... due to cockaburr under the blanket...

are you sure?...mighta been your bad arm pits... :)

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 07:47 PM
"Look at them sticker-gitters, ain't they neat..."

paladin
10-19-2009, 07:50 PM
When the kids were 8-9 I got them a little burro as a pet....it was fine for about 4 months, then school took over, new friends, they forgot Peanut. I felt sorry for him so started bringing him treats, when I would get home would brush him down....made sure his little barn was clean......after a while he would totally ignore the kids, which they didn't really show interest, and was like a little puppy. We were divorced, the kids moved back to momma, and I was going back overseas, so I found a really nice family that wanted him, I had their kids come over for two months after school and follow me around and do the things that I did, and he took a liking to them. They would let him pull a little cart and he seemed to love the attention. Any critter loves attention and care.

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 08:16 PM
"a-gittin them stickers in they feet"

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 08:20 PM
just so you'll know I don't waste ALL my time here...this is where I spent the last few minutes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEtptrnurLs&feature=related

("gittin them goat-heads, gittin them briars...and picken em out with sticker-picken-pliers")

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 09:19 PM
this is what I was looking for when I ran across the utube linked above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOG9sYgP7i0&feature=related

Phillip Allen
10-19-2009, 09:27 PM
I didnt know Joe played the key board :)

not Joe...too tall and no camera in his hand pointing at himself