Stanley Premium Hand Planes [Archive]

Bob Cleek

10-16-2009, 01:26 PM

These are a reincarnation of the old Stanley "Sweetheart" line, although they are new designs, not reproductionos of the original "Sweethearts." (Note the "S.W." for "Stanley Works" inside the heart shaped logo.) Stanley reportely has brought these back as a premium quality line intended to be competitive with high priced planes like Veritas and Neilsen, but at a bit lower price point. While I haven't played with a new "Sweetheart" as yet, from all indications in the woodworking forums, they are a well made solid traditional plane and probably the best value for the money on the market right now. As with anybody's planes, the irons are a major quality variable. I'd expect that when you put a really top end iron in them, the total cost is going to be closer in cost to a Neilsen with its fancy top quality stock iron.

http://diy.blogdig.net/archives/articles/July2009/09/Preview__Stanley_Sweetheart_Premium_Hand_Planes.ht ml

Hughman

10-16-2009, 01:56 PM

Where are they made? The Stanley company left Bridgeport a few years back for somewhere in the Caribbean

SMARTINSEN

10-16-2009, 05:24 PM

Where are they made? The Stanley company left Bridgeport a few years back for somewhere in the Caribbean

That was only the corporate offices, and it was New Britain, not Bridgeport. And there was such an uproar in the state of CT when they announced their relocation plans, that the company reconsidered their decision, and they are still headquartered in CT.

From their website:

The Stanley Works
1000 Stanley Drive
New Britain, CT 06053

TEL (860) 225-5111

As to the manufacturing, they are a global company. Some of their hand tools are made in the USA, and some like the #90 rabbet plane in the U.K.

I do not about their premium line up of planes, though.

Nicholas Carey

10-16-2009, 05:29 PM

Looks a lot like Veritas' trade dress :rolleyes:

goodbasil

10-16-2009, 07:43 PM

popularwoodworking.com the Oct./09 #178 issue (page 28) did a page on the new #4.
The #4 weighs 5 lbs. half a pound more than a Lie-Nielson #4. (In bronze.)
The iron body is made in Mexico.
The 0.125" thick A2 cutter is English made.
The knob & tote are cherry.
Levercap is a lightweight alloy.
Ajusters are brass.
No ajustable frog.
They say if Stanley could tightenup the ajuster and slim down the tote, then they think a lot of woodworkers would be pleased with it.

Lew Barrett

10-17-2009, 11:08 AM

Well, my first thought on reading about them here on the forum a few months ago was that I would consider these myself, except for the made in Mexico part.
It's not that I have anything against "made in Mexico" or that I believe the quality won't be there. It's just that I'd sooner pay just a bit more if necessary for the US or Canadian made tool. That's starting to count for something to me on premium quality products these days.

I think the new Stanley stuff looks just fine, but I have to ask myself why they haven't been making a premium line all along. A bit late to the party considering the high regard that the Sweetheart and Bedrock stuff is held in. They left the high end tool trade and are returning now that L-N and Veritas have proven the viability of hanging in. Gotta love American corporate thinking.

Bob Cleek

10-18-2009, 12:08 PM

I think Stanley has always made a good quality line of planes. It's just that they were hard to find because there was little general hardware store market for them in recent decades. Meanwhile, Stanley responded to the market demands and put out a lot of mid-range tools that sold at chain stores. That seems to have cheapened their brand name. Then, along comes a rennaisance in woodworking as a hobby, along with wooden boats and other enterprises, and the internet. New outfits like Lie Nielsen and Veritas start filling the specialty internet hardware market with fancy planes and an "upscale" tool market comes to life. The fact is, Lie Neilsen planes are in large measure simply copys of Stanley's Bedrock line, cast in bronze instead of ductile iron, tuned up with high quality irons. They look very pretty, but aren't any better than a well tuned old Stanley with a good iron. It's all about the sizzle, not just the steak. Stanley's marketing people have finally seen the light and are chasing the fancy tool market. The new "Sweetheart" line is bound to remain a small specialty line in Stanley's sales picture, to be sure.

Don't worry about "Made in Mexico" in this intance. In most instances since NAFTA, that label is synonymous with "Made in USA." All it means in most instances is that a US manufacturer has set up a factory just across the US/Mexico borderline, no different than their old US factory, and are taking advantage of lower taxes, cheaper labor and benefit costs, no unions, fewer EPA regulations and so on. "Made in Mexico" these days generally means "Made in a US factory in Mexico."

pcford

10-18-2009, 12:44 PM

Hope you get a chance to try a LN sometime.

Bob Smalser

10-18-2009, 12:55 PM

Lovely. But like any hand plane at a hundred bucks and up, why? Why at all when you can own three or four or more originals to one new premium plane for the same money?

The original Sweethearts were made from 1920 to 1932, and you can extend that end date through 1941 and benefit from that combination of relatively advanced, consistent metallurgy and hand workmanship that made superior tools. It may need a simple tuneup, but with a new Hock or L/N iron equals anything made today. And if you are boatbuilder working in softwoods, the stock irons are more than adequate.

They were made by the millions, have survived in the millions, and often can be had today for less than the value of the materials they were made with. The more common #3's, #4's and #5's can often be had in perfect condition for 20-25 bucks.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/285184097.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/68449396.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/68448839.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9139397/265920852.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17020258/263582057.jpg

A new, pictorial Stanley Type (dates of manufacture) Study by Johnnie Kleso, a machinist who restores them as a sideline:

https://home.comcast.net/~rexmill/planes101/typing/typing.htm

pcford

10-18-2009, 01:03 PM

Lovely. But like any hand plane at a hundred bucks and up, why? Why at all when you can own three or four or more originals to one new premium plane for the same money?

Here we go again.

Might note that people that does this sort of work every day instead of being an hobbyist and Ebay tool trader disagree with you.

goodbasil

10-18-2009, 01:46 PM

The trouble with "new tools," like that which are sold by L/N, Veritas & now the "New" Stanley is that any slight change or improvement from the orginal suddenly makes the old planes obsolete.
Of course 100's of boats, coffee tables & dining sets have been built with the old ones and can still be. It's knowing how to use it.
Tools, do not a craftsman make.
A Stanley, (pre'62) or Falcon, Record or Anchor with a new A2 iron and a flattened sole will do a great job on any board.
It's a lot cheaper than buying a whole new plane.
But then who am I to talk? I go into Lee Valley for a book and end up walking out with $200 less.

When buying second hand Stanley types I'd stay away from the blue ones and the redish-brown ones. Take a screwdriver with you and take them apart, checking for cracks and that all parts are there.

pcford

10-18-2009, 03:01 PM

A Stanley, (pre'62) or Falcon, Record or Anchor with a new A2 iron and a flattened sole will do a great job on any board.
It's a lot cheaper than buying a whole new plane.

I have just returned from a difficult job of several weeks and I have resolved not to engage in time wasting discussions here.

However, regarding LN and other "super grade" planes:

1) If one can't tell the difference in construction between a LN and a similar Stanly block plane, well, that person is not very observant.
2) Most professionals I know use them.

Lew Barrett

10-18-2009, 03:26 PM

There's a second consideration when buying premium tooling from L-N or Veritas.
And that's because there's a secondary market for them as well as for the used Stanley planes of a prior generation. If we're using ebay as the sine quo non for purchasing vintage Stanleys, then it pays to note that the market is very strong for used L-Ns (and Lee Valley product as well) right there on ebay.
Go ahead; do a search.

A tool you paid $200 for ten years ago if kept in good condition will sell for that today. The demand for their used stuff is high. It's not just a question of throwing that money away. If you look at the retained equity in these tools, you will see that they maintain a high degree of their initial purchase price, just as the good tools of a former generation have. The only real differences are that you won't have (depending on your POV) either the joy or pain of tuning them up, and you will have more tied up in the tool during the time you own it. Apart from that, cost of ownership is potentially quite low, and the risk of getting an "undiagnosed looser" is absolutely nil. I think they remain one of the more satisfying buys a person can make in today's world.

goodbasil

10-18-2009, 04:27 PM

Another thing about Veritas & L/N tools is that they have antique value and status the moment you purchase them. Now-a-days, anything not made in China must be an antique.

Nicholas Carey

10-18-2009, 04:41 PM

...The market is very strong for used L-Ns (and Lee Valley product as well) right there on ebay.
Go ahead; do a search.

A tool you paid $200 for ten years ago if kept in good condition will sell for that today.I see used L-N and Veritas planes selling on eBay for more than retail for a new one :rolleyes:

Never made sense to me

Tool Buying, Adam Smith and the Invisible Hand

Purchasing something in the market place is an political and economic statement.

My rationale for buying quality new-manufacture tools like L-N or Veritas is simple: buying a L-N or Veritas plane is an economic vote in favor of perpetuating the manufacture of quality tools. Buying a used Stanley plane is a vote against that. It's the same reason I shop at local grocery stores (Seattle's own Metropolitan Markets or the Ballard/Central Market) in preference to national chains like QFC (Kroger) or Safeway. They might be cheaper but they're not local.

I like Veritas tools because the folk over at Lee Valley actually think about what the tool is supposed to do and design around it and modern metalworking technology. They don't just clone 150 year-old Stanley designs.

Bob Smalser

10-18-2009, 05:28 PM

.... If we're using ebay as the sine quo non for purchasing vintage Stanleys, then it pays to note that the market is very strong for used L-Ns (and Lee Valley product as well) right there on ebay.

Go ahead; do a search.

I'll vouch for their high resale value.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17020258/274460201.jpg

A couple years ago I did a magazine article on block plane selection and tuneup (a synopsis is below)....partly to find out if I found the L/N's to actually work better than my pre-war Stanleys.

They are fine tools....the only thing I had to do to the used L/N's to put them in service to was remove a few rusty fingerprints, check the soles and sides for flat and square (they were both), and hone the irons.

And when I was finished after several months of use, those L/N block planes both sold for slightly more than I had paid for them.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67034

Lew Barrett

10-18-2009, 07:16 PM

My rationale for buying quality new-manufacture tools like L-N or Veritas is simple: buying a L-N or Veritas plane is an economic vote in favor of perpetuating the manufacture of quality tools.......

I like Veritas tools because the folk over at Lee Valley actually think about what the tool is supposed to do and design around it and modern metalworking technology. They don't just clone 150 year-old Stanley designs.

This speaks more directly to what I was suggesting regarding manufacturing in Mexico. Bob Cleek spoke to the question of manufacturing Sweethearts not being a question of compromised quality, but rather of suggesting manufacture in an American factory that happens to be in Mexico and hires Mexicans. I would as soon pay the premium to keep the factory here. Someday, we will truly understand how pernicious and debilitating exporting our manufacturing base has been. Happy to buy a fine American made tool I can pass along to the next guy, and to be the guy who used and cared for it first. Extreme pleasure, actually.

katiedobe

10-18-2009, 08:24 PM

I agree completely with Lew on not supporting US businesses that send manufacturing jobs out of the states. I personally believe that NAFTA is just another way for large corporations to take advantage of low paid workers in Mexico. The national minimum wage in this country is $50 pesos a day. Not even $5 US dollars a day anymore now that the exchange rate is 12.9 pesos to the dollar. But on the otherhand a lot of people, the world over, would knock their mother over in a rush to save 5 cents on something at WalMart. So very few Americans are willing to pay a premium price to keep fellow Americans at work.

And to Bob, where can I find good used planes and such? Everyone says look in the flea markets and by the time I got to an estate sale the tool hounds had already been there buying the whole lot and leaving nothing for the next guy. So where is the best place to find some of these milliions. And can you trust the Ebay sellers?

Bob Smalser

10-18-2009, 08:50 PM

And can you trust the Ebay sellers?

There are no old-tool flea markets convenient to where I live either. Nor do I often have a day or am inclined to drive 200 or more miles to hunt rust when I do, either. I'm willing to pay someone below to do that for me.

Of course there are risks, but you can generally trust the feedback. While there are ways to manipulate the system slightly , they are onesey-twosey. Nobody gets 2800 good transactions in a row by cheating people, let alone 9800:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280411223271&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Stanley-Jack-Plane_W0QQitemZ330368025970QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item4ceb780572

http://cgi.ebay.com/STANLEY-4-SMOOTH-PLANE-SWEET-HEART-HANDLE-DECAL-SUPER_W0QQitemZ310174311996QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item4837d4663c

http://cgi.ebay.com/bailey-4-plane-w-sweetheart-stanley-blade_W0QQitemZ360198142086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item53dd7b7886

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Stanley-Sweetheart-no-4-Bench-Plane-Nice_W0QQitemZ280408839496QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item4149ab5548

http://cgi.ebay.com/STANLEY-BAILEY-No-5-C-TYPE-12-VERY-NICE_W0QQitemZ330368633425QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item4ceb814a51

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-STANLEY-65-LOW-ANGLE-PLANE-NICE-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ220494305420QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item33567c188c

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Stanley-65-Low-Angle-Hand-Block-Plane-Small_W0QQitemZ170396316086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item27ac6971b6

http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanley-7-C-Corrugated-Plane-with-Sweet-Heart-Blade_W0QQitemZ260490520027QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca671e5db

http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanley-Plane-7-Bailey-Corrugated-22-USA-Sweetheart_W0QQitemZ250514401930QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a53d26a8a

Learn your subject, stick to 1920-1940, look for lots of pics and ask questions to insure the mouth isn't worn, there is length remaining on the iron and it doesn't have any cracks.

RFNK

10-18-2009, 10:17 PM

A Stanley, (pre'62) or Falcon, Record or Anchor with a new A2 iron and a flattened sole will do a great job on any board.

You get Falcon planes in Canada? Are these Pope Falcons (Australian made) or another variety? Rick

goodbasil

10-18-2009, 11:34 PM

Hi RFNK, yeah, I've found Australian made Falcon planes here. I've had 3 or 4 all used. I would expect that someone imported them at one time. Same with the Anchor's, (Sweden.)

TimmS

10-18-2009, 11:52 PM

Are these comparable to the Lee Valley and other similarly priced tools, or is Stanley cashing in on their name again?

http://www.stanleytools.com/catalog_images/mid_res/12-136_mid_res.jpg

http://www.stanleytools.com/catalog_images/mid_res/12-139_mid_res.jpg

http://www.stanleytools.com/catalog_images/mid_res/12-140_mid_res.jpg

I have to say i am not drawn to the style of any of those. The block plane is better, but the other two are pretty ugly. I buy antique Stanleys and I have a lie Nielson low angle block plane that I keep at the ready
I hae to say I am not fond of the styling of any of the

RFNK

10-19-2009, 01:58 AM

Hi RFNK, yeah, I've found Australian made Falcon planes here. I've had 3 or 4 all used. I would expect that someone imported them at one time. Same with the Anchor's, (Sweden.)

Thanks Basil, that's very interesting! There was a time when there were a few local manufacturers of planes in Oz, the most notable being Carter, Pope (Falcon), Turner and an Australian branch of Stanley. It's said that the transparent plastic handled screwdriver was first manufactured by Turner and later bought out by Stanley. There are a couple of craft/specialist plane manufacturers in Oz now (notably HNT Gordon) but large scale manufacture for the `handyman' in Australia is pretty much a thing of the past now, I think. I contacted Stanley (Australia) a few years ago to find out what sort of timber was used in the handles of Aust. Stanley planes - no one knew, in fact they were surprised to hear that there had been Stanley planes made in Australia! Rick PS If anyone does actually know what sort of wood was used in the Aust, Stanley planes, I'd still like to know! (It's not rosewood and looks nothing like rosewood. It's a lighter timber, usually painted black or with a reddish, brown stain).

katiedobe

10-20-2009, 05:47 PM

Thanks for the links Bob.

goodbasil

10-27-2009, 07:07 PM

Came across this on the Rockler site. $100 bucks! They're not giving it away.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=22141&cookietest=1 Doesn't mention anything about A2 cutter. Maybe it's not.

PeterSibley

10-27-2009, 10:00 PM

You get Falcon planes in Canada? Are these Pope Falcons (Australian made) or another variety? Rick

Most of mine are Falcons , ex TAFE .I bought them about 35 years ago .:) They're not quite new .:D

RFNK

10-28-2009, 01:55 AM

Peter,
I think Falcons went out of production well before that! High schools and TAFEs seemed to have mainly Falcons and Turners, unfortunately quite often with a hole drilled through the sole for hanging on a hook :mad:. I've got a cabinet full of old planes bought at garage sales and auctions when I went through a bit of a bowerbird phase about 15 years ago. Quite a few old Falcons, a couple of Turners and lots of Carters and Stanleys. Rick

PeterSibley

10-28-2009, 02:51 AM

Ahhh ! Thanks for that ...one of my $1 Stanleys has a hole through the sole ,directly under the blade and a 1" crack in the side from being dropped ..not by me .Strangely enough it works beautifully !

Lew Barrett

10-28-2009, 10:20 AM

Came across this on the Rockler site. $100 bucks! They're not giving it away.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=22141&cookietest=1 Doesn't mention anything about A2 cutter. Maybe it's not.

Competitive but not priced as to be an obvious first choice if the competition's products are more to your taste. I suppose it may come down to personal preference and how it feels in the hand. I don't doubt they are good tools.

Good Hock replacements are about $30-35. If you buy a standard Stanley plane new (or a used one) and add the Hock, it might make sense to buy their improved product to begin with. Me? For about the same money I'm not running out to replace my LN 102.

Final thoughts: availability may be an issue, as Rockler (for one) doesn't carry the LN or Veritas lines. People shopping there or other similar places simply won't have another choice if they want to buy a premium hand plane. I wouldn't doubt that the distribution issue figured in Stanley's decision to offer these planes.

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=102

Keith Wilson

10-29-2009, 03:53 PM

The design of the new #4 is interesting; the frog is cast in one piece with the rest of the thing, and you adjust the blade gap by moving the nose piece, just like a block plane. It would be very solid if machined accurately. The Norris-style adjuster is nice, but the hole where the adjuster pin engages the blade has a surprising amount of clearance, meaning the adjuster is sloppy; on the ones I've looked at it takes over a full turn to move the blade. That's irritating, and there's no good reason for it. Otherwise it seems quite well made. The blade is A2 and quite thick. They've also resurrected the #162.

http://www.hartvilletool.com/shared/images/products//large/77329.jpg

Paul Pless

10-29-2009, 04:24 PM

The design of the new #4 is interesting; the frog is cast in one piece with the rest of the thing, and you adjust the blade gap by moving the nose piece, just like a block plane. It would be very solid if machined accurately. The Norris-style adjuster is nice, but the hole where the adjuster pin engages the blade has a surprising amount of clearance, meaning the adjuster is sloppyPretty much just exactly like Lie-Nielson's version.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/images_p/A270.jpg