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floatingkiwi
10-16-2009, 08:04 AM
You know, I was thinking about the BIG BANG theory today. What a hoax. The effect of a bang or explosion is always one of disintegration, not creation. It separates everything, dissipates it, moves it all around in a chaotic manner. Disorder, fire, heat smoke, sending anything that was previously nestled alongside other friendly anythings that were attempting to become the building blocks of a recognizable object or something living, in different directions really fast.
Take a delicate snowflake and its beautiful hexagonally oriented fragility and have it fall gently to the earths surface and land right on an exploding firecracker. I would guarantee the result would not be an even more intricitally constructed object of frozen water and whatever was else was around where it landed.Not here on earth or any other dimension, galaxy, realm, imaginary point in space or time, no Sir. It would be a reverse of anything creative.Send everything backwards it would.
In fact just about any event, no matter how fast or slow. whatever ingredients that could be mustered by anyone or anything, anywhere or anytime at all, period, is capable of creating something as fantastic and wonderful as LIFE , except for life itself.
What was first? The egg or chicken? Exactly what egg or chicken? Show me an egg an I will tell you it came from a chicken that came from an egg. Neither was first. They are the same thing and always have been. Neither just suddenly appeared, for no apparent reason, on a nice piece of hay in Galactic Joes Space Barn some 320 million whatevers ago, to be marvelled at and kept safe and warm, just in case it was inscribed to do so on the shell, and then one day, Holy Mac....what the ....oh look at the cute little..., let's call it a chicken and eat its unborn offspring so people for all time can wonder which one came first.
Never mind the blueprints for everything about you embossed firmly and invisibly in every atom of your being, and how beautiful and fortunate we are to be smart enough to behold the universe, that which,(by the way), without us doing so, would not exist, or forgiving yourself for not driving the asshole, who just cut you off and almost spread everything living all over the inside of your new car, off the road to meet the end of his little turn at his finite life.
Quick, get what you can get, how ever you can, while life is around, because if it just happened along one day, then it is going to disappear just as mysteriously, another day soon.
Wars have been fought, and still are, over how life started, mostly because everyone imagines It had a different engineer. Or just for the fun of fighting.
How many different words in how many languages are there for saying the word God? And they all believe thay their God is the Only God. That their Almighty Figure and where He lives and what He does each day, is the Only One that has been around doin' stuff for as long as Life has been around. Well I got news for all of them. They are all correct. There IS only one, and they are too busy yelling it at each other, to understand just what it is they are yelling.
" There is only one God", comes booming from one corner of the globe."No there isn't ", floats a distant reply,"there are two, yours and mine"!
Now what would be the fun in that boring exchange?

Well I could go on forever, if I could stay alive that long, because that is how long Life is gonna be around. Forever. It will never end. Like Time and Space, Life is infinite. It has always been and always will be. How can something so glorious spring from nothing?
It cannot. Life will always find a way to present itself in every habitable place in the infinite cosmos. In every bird whistle in every tree that falls cheerfully on any set of ears close enough to hear it. In every sunrise filtering through every multigasseoussed atmosphere in the galaxies, for these fortunate enough to see it, and felt in every heart of all living things any and everywhere, for all time, for those alive enough to feel it.
Live on and let life live on.

huisjen
10-16-2009, 08:08 AM
Hey look, a troll!

Dan

Milo Christensen
10-16-2009, 08:16 AM
You really do have it all wrong, you know. The very delicate and precise alterations to the Laws of Physics that took place during the most recent version of the BIG BANG is entirely due to the fact that life didn't exist in the universe that preceded this BIG BANG and it was necessary for the supreme universal intelligence (God) to modify the entire universe slightly in order to begin the process that would create life.

oznabrag
10-16-2009, 08:23 AM
Life began in Jacksonville, Alabama, about 49 years ago.

John Smith
10-16-2009, 08:24 AM
Does it matter?

Maybe life was always here.

Ian McColgin
10-16-2009, 08:25 AM
The Big Bang is not quite the same as origin of life theories.

Everyone knows that life began at 155th and Amsterdam.

scudder
10-16-2009, 08:32 AM
A Catholic a Protestant and a Jew were discussing this topic. The Catholic said life begins at conception. The Protestant said life begins at birth. And the Jew said life begins when the kids leave home and the dog dies.

huisjen
10-16-2009, 08:37 AM
Is it true the Poughkeepsie is an old indian word that means "near the mall"?

Dan

Tom Montgomery
10-16-2009, 09:13 AM
A magnificent statement of faith. Well done.

Keith Wilson
10-16-2009, 09:21 AM
How can something so glorious spring from nothing? It cannot.How do you know this?

Chris Coose
10-16-2009, 09:46 AM
I keep wondering how people got a mouth that you can talk outa.

Kaa
10-16-2009, 09:53 AM
A Catholic a Protestant and a Jew were discussing this topic. The Catholic said life begins at conception. The Protestant said life begins at birth. And the Jew said life begins when the kids leave home and the dog dies.

In the Jewish tradition the fetus is considered viable when it graduates from medical school... :D

Kaa

ljb5
10-16-2009, 10:22 AM
This is the only part of your post I found convincing:


Well I could go on forever...

jonboy
10-16-2009, 10:33 AM
The disturbing thing is not that some people have faith, a pretty unarguable concept, and the ultimate get-out clause after all, but of whatever persuasion they are prepared to kill others for their belief. Sad, misguided and ignorant
If you start from a conclusion you haven't a chance of anybody even remotely intelligent giving you the time of day. Dream on.
But if it makes you feel better, go ahead, like reflexology or going to confession or eating a rare steak, or fresh picked sweetcorn, or sailing or belting down the highway on some hooligan motorcycle.
we are tenacious and ambitious and loving and selfish and selfless and a million other things, but that's it..and then you die as WA said. So looking at things in a linear time frame way is a big mistake ... we are a bit of recycled stuff, and have been and will be, and why even bother with thinking about where or when 'it' began... it didn't, begin, because it is.
If that bothers you go and find a god.. an easy way out of having to think.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
10-16-2009, 10:52 AM
It's been my experience that life begins when you're somewhere in your 40's and going through your first divorce.
Yup, that's when it all began.
Life as I know it anyway.


http://www.unc.edu/~pcg/431/images/chicken.gif

ljb5
10-16-2009, 11:01 AM
Anyway, wiki, I'm going to make an effort to address some of the technical aspects of your argument.


The Big Bang happened about 10 Billion years before life began, so it's a mistake to try to talk about the Big Bang and the origin of life as if they were the same. You are correct that there was no life in the immediate aftermath of the explosion. It took a very long time for the universe to cool enough for stars and planets to form. You are mistaken when you say that explosion cannot form anything beautiful. Explosions can form crystals. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6THY-4W4CWFW-B&_user=10&_coverDate=09/30/2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1051316427&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=243550d257967ec8cb09a17a9f4e5ae6) See also (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TWD-47CY3B7-6&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1051317877&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b0a4a9c7bfad50f8de5558912ad23dec) You can ask vulcanologists to show you crystals formed by explosions. Fire and other disruptive forces are also important to life. Some species of pine trees require forest fires to release their seeds. You can't eat a coconut unless you can break it open.

John Smith
10-16-2009, 12:45 PM
How do you know this?

Actually, it's a contridiction to think anything as glorious as life had to have a beginning. It follows that God had to have a beginning.

If God is alive, and he was always here, life had to always have been here.

I'm still wondering why it matters.

floatingkiwi
10-16-2009, 12:49 PM
You really do have it all wrong, you know. The very delicate and precise alterations to the Laws of Physics that took place during the most recent version of the BIG BANG is entirely due to the fact that life didn't exist in the universe that preceded this BIG BANG and it was necessary for the supreme universal intelligence (God) to modify the entire universe slightly in order to begin the process that would create life.
I am not attempting to present facts . I don't belief there is right and wrong in my or anyone elses opinion.And what I write is not intended to be, nor should it be confused with, an arguement. I see argueing as negative. Counterproductive. I could easily say that what you write in response is unfounded and inconsistent with so much of what so many believe. But I won't. It is your opinion just like what I offered to you all, is mine, and you deserve what you believe to be appreciated as such. Enjoyed and preserved rightfully so. I think each and every one of us are very special creatures that have no idea of our limitless capabilities, if we all got together and helped one another, cared for and listened to each other, whether you are a middle aged businessman in a suit on his way to a family he loves after a great day running his own business ,or an unfortunate misfit who does not know what it is like to have those things.(Well I do have a suit in the closet).
When seeing that space closing up between cars and there are two of you approaching it, to use the brake instead of the accelerator, to pick each other up, as a team works, to think of the guy next to you more than yourself. That is when you know what you are made of.When you forfeit what you have to get what you want done, to give someone a hand on their way, without payment or recognition.To do what yousay you will instead of saying it to sound good or impress someone who is shallow enough to fall for it.The measure of a man is in his actions, not his voice or his promises, but in what he does, on a daily basis.If I can manage to do these things regularly, without thinking about it too long, I think I am hovering closer to whatever it is we are here for. But, anyway, I could go on forever, right ljb5, BTW, thanks for reading that far, I do not eat coconuts as they are dry and I love Gary Larson and any other contributions that are humourous or well thought out or at least , Honest.
I try not to pick holes in the fabric of others thoughts and feelings as I might not like what is underneath.
By the way. The dinosaurs never just became extinct. They just changed,( My Mother in Law and neighbour are living proof), adapted, some mutated, in order to survive their changing habitat, just like we must, or perish. I am an optimist and I believe that we will survive forever, but unfortunately, my friends, this planet we call home, will not.

Well, I dreamed I saw the knights
In armor coming,
Saying something about a queen.
There were peasants singing and
Drummers drumming
And the archer split the tree.
There was a fanfare blowing
To the sun
That was floating on the breeze.
Look at Mother Nature on the run
In the nineteen seventies.
Look at Mother Nature on the run
In the nineteen seventies.

I was lying in a burned out basement
With the full moon in my eyes.
I was hoping for replacement
When the sun burst thru the sky.
There was a band playing in my head
And I felt like getting high.
I was thinking about what a
Friend had said
I was hoping it was a lie.
Thinking about what a
Friend had said
I was hoping it was a lie.

Well, I dreamed I saw the silver
Space ships flying
In the yellow haze of the sun,
There were children crying
And colors flying
All around the chosen ones.
All in a dream, all in a dream
The loading had begun.
They were flying Mother Nature's
Silver seed to a new home in the sun.
Flying Mother Nature's
Silver seed to a new home.

paladin
10-16-2009, 01:17 PM
The snake did it.

Bob Triggs
10-16-2009, 02:07 PM
"Life begins when the dog dies and the kids leave home".

floatingkiwi
10-16-2009, 02:45 PM
Actually, it's a contridiction to think anything as glorious as life had to have a beginning. It follows that God had to have a beginning.

If God is alive, and he was always here, life had to always have been here.

I'm still wondering why it matters.
Thanks John. I think if we can figure out why we are here, then we will know why it matters.
And I also believe that God is life is God.

John Smith
10-16-2009, 04:01 PM
Thanks John. I think if we can figure out why we are here, then we will know why it matters.
And I also believe that God is life is God.
Don't thank me. I'm still trying to figure out why it matters.

Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes. If there is a God, what's his use?

If he cannot/will not step in to protect children from abuse by priests (those doing God's work) what good is he?

Don't, please, give me the "free choice" bit, as the children that were abused were not exercising free choice.

Mrleft8
10-16-2009, 04:03 PM
In a tupperware container in my fridge.... Who knew?

SMARTINSEN
10-16-2009, 05:12 PM
The snake did it.

Leave Kaa out of this.

Upnorth1
10-16-2009, 06:26 PM
Up here life begins early May, and ends about now, unless you're also a skiier.

Fitz
10-16-2009, 07:30 PM
See last month's edition of the Creation/Evolution thread for all of The Answers.

paladin
10-16-2009, 07:45 PM
In a clapboard two room shack on the Seminole Indian reservation near Snomac, central Indian Territories, Oklahoma Territories about June 1939. Survived a dozen rattlesnake bites, 2 tornadoes, buried underground for 6 weeks, whacked on the head with a ball bat, set on fire in a garage, 2 nasty knife cuts, 3 bullet holes, 3 airplane crashes, 2 helicopter crashed, 3 car accidents from women intent on killing me and numerous other misadventures.

Bob Triggs
10-16-2009, 08:00 PM
In a clapboard two room shack on the Seminole Indian reservation near Snomac, central Indian Territories, Oklahoma Territories about June 1939. Survived a dozen rattlesnake bites, 2 tornadoes, buried underground for 6 weeks, whacked on the head with a ball bat, set on fire in a garage, 2 nasty knife cuts, 3 bullet holes, 3 airplane crashes, 2 helicopter crashed, 3 car accidents from women intent on killing me and numerous other misadventures.

Chuck...What?... No Chilblains ?!

purri
10-17-2009, 01:33 AM
In a clapboard two room shack on the Seminole Indian reservation near Snomac, central Indian Territories, Oklahoma Territories about June 1939. Survived a dozen rattlesnake bites, 2 tornadoes, buried underground for 6 weeks, whacked on the head with a ball bat, set on fire in a garage, 2 nasty knife cuts, 3 bullet holes, 3 airplane crashes, 2 helicopter crashed, 3 car accidents from women intent on killing me and numerous other misadventures.

respect.

boylesboats
10-17-2009, 01:46 AM
This is crazy... and I am confused :confused:

Where did those Dinos and cavemen began?

floatingkiwi
10-17-2009, 04:33 AM
How do you know this?
I will answer your question , with another question.
Have you ever seen anything physical suddenly appear from nothing?
I sure haven't and unless you are Dick York and Barbara Eden lives on your table, neither have you.
If this impossible feat took place at one time, then it would have happened again, at least to some extent, and there would be some documentation of it somewhere relevant, in recorded history it would, for fantastic it would be.
"A fruit fly appeared to materialize out of thin air today",the paper would read," on the lapel of the speaker as he recited his piece , time flies like an arrow". He has since changed the work to the title of," Fruit flies like a banana".

WX
10-17-2009, 05:53 AM
The Big Bang theory...In the begining there was nothing, and it exploded and thus the Universe was created.

The God theory....And God said, let there be light and thus the Universe and all in it was created.
So where did God get all the stuff from?

boylesboats
10-17-2009, 06:28 AM
The Big Bang theory...In the begining there was nothing, and it exploded and thus the Universe was created.

The God theory....And God said, let there be light and thus the Universe and all in it was created.
So where did God get all the stuff from?


So where did God get all the stuff from?

that is a good question that never will be honestly answered... dust particles from outer space perhap?
Somewhere I read... he made Adam from clay... ever since then, life recycled itself.. all living things return to dirt when it die or expelled... right?

John Smith
10-17-2009, 06:29 AM
The Big Bang theory...In the begining there was nothing, and it exploded and thus the Universe was created.

The God theory....And God said, let there be light and thus the Universe and all in it was created.
So where did God get all the stuff from?
It's all flawed non logic. If everything had to have a beginning, the God had to have a beginning. If God was always there, everything does not have to have a beginning.

I'm perfectly willing to admit I have no idea. Those who blame God for all of this have no idea either. God just lets them sound like they do.

I find it particularly interesting that those who are so concerned about this can't seem to tell me why it matters.

Tom Montgomery
10-17-2009, 09:40 AM
Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking singing A Glorious Dawn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&feature=youtube_gdata).

George.
10-17-2009, 11:55 AM
Anybody mention the turtles yet?

Flying Orca
10-17-2009, 12:16 PM
This thread appears to contain some misunderstandings as to what the "Big Bang" was or was not. I'll leave aside the conflation of abiogenesis and the origin of the universe, as it's been pointed out by others.

To think of the "Big Bang" in terms of our everyday experience of explosions is a fundamental misapprehension. Explosions as we know them involve the rapid release of stored energy in existing aggregates of matter operating under the physical laws of the universe as they apply here and now. The "Big Bang", on the other hand, refers to the fact that available data indicate the very early universe's expansion (not explosion as we would ordinarily use the term) from a point of singularity.

It quite literally seems to have appeared "from nothing" (to use your phrase) because of that singularity, beyond which the math indicates we may not know anything. Although our understanding of math and physics (practically the same thing at this level) allows us to speculate and model the universe's expansion from tiny fractions of a second up to now, our knowledge is necessarily incomplete and theoretical (the best explanation for the data, as always)... and may not be extrapolated beyond the singularity.

Some may claim that this is evidence of some sort of deity; others may claim there is no evidence to assume said deity's existence. I'm in the latter camp; the data are the data, the best available interpretation hews to the data and only the data, and the rest is supposition without evidence. I have no need of that.

isla
10-17-2009, 01:16 PM
The Big Bang theory...In the begining there was nothing, and it exploded and thus the Universe was created.

The God theory....And God said, let there be light and thus the Universe and all in it was created.
So where did God get all the stuff from?

Obviously from another universe in a different space/time continuum..duh?

Paul G.
10-17-2009, 01:27 PM
if you meet the buddha on the road kill him!

George.
10-17-2009, 01:47 PM
All the way down, I tell you! Ye who have hears, ear!

Peerie Maa
10-17-2009, 06:38 PM
In a clapboard two room shack on the Seminole Indian reservation near Snomac, central Indian Territories, Oklahoma Territories about June 1939. Survived a dozen rattlesnake bites, 2 tornadoes, buried underground for 6 weeks, whacked on the head with a ball bat, set on fire in a garage, 2 nasty knife cuts, 3 bullet holes, 3 airplane crashes, 2 helicopter crashed, 3 car accidents from women intent on killing me and numerous other misadventures.

You gotta learn how to talk to wimmin differently.:p

pefjr
10-17-2009, 07:14 PM
In the same place it's gonna end.

Flying Orca
10-17-2009, 08:21 PM
We should all be so lucky to go that way. ;)

(It was either that or a joke about your mother, and you might take that the wrong way...)

Phillip Allen
10-17-2009, 08:33 PM
In a clapboard two room shack on the Seminole Indian reservation near Snomac, central Indian Territories, Oklahoma Territories about June 1939. Survived a dozen rattlesnake bites, 2 tornadoes, buried underground for 6 weeks, whacked on the head with a ball bat, set on fire in a garage, 2 nasty knife cuts, 3 bullet holes, 3 airplane crashes, 2 helicopter crashed, 3 car accidents from women intent on killing me and numerous other misadventures.

bare in mind, Chuck, that you have NOT survived the bilge...yet!

S B
10-17-2009, 08:48 PM
This thread appears to contain some misunderstandings as to what the "Big Bang" was or was not. I'll leave aside the conflation of abiogenesis and the origin of the universe, as it's been pointed out by others.

To think of the "Big Bang" in terms of our everyday experience of explosions is a fundamental misapprehension. Explosions as we know them involve the rapid release of stored energy in existing aggregates of matter operating under the physical laws of the universe as they apply here and now. The "Big Bang", on the other hand, refers to the fact that available data indicate the very early universe's expansion (not explosion as we would ordinarily use the term) from a point of singularity.

It quite literally seems to have appeared "from nothing" (to use your phrase) because of that singularity, beyond which the math indicates we may not know anything. Although our understanding of math and physics (practically the same thing at this level) allows us to speculate and model the universe's expansion from tiny fractions of a second up to now, our knowledge is necessarily incomplete and theoretical (the best explanation for the data, as always)... and may not be extrapolated beyond the singularity.

Some may claim that this is evidence of some sort of deity; others may claim there is no evidence to assume said deity's existence. I'm in the latter camp; the data are the data, the best available interpretation hews to the data and only the data, and the rest is supposition without evidence. I have no need of that.
IMHO The' Point of Singularity' is a problem with the Big Bang Theory. To have the present diversity of matter, there had to have been an asymmetrical event, which the theory does not allow for.

Flying Orca
10-17-2009, 09:55 PM
Do you mean baryogenesis? That does require some asymmetry, though not necessarily at the very beginning. It's an interesting question with no clear answer at this point. (I presume you don't mean the diversity of elements, that being pretty well explained by the star life cycle.)

S B
10-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Do you mean baryogenesis? That does require some asymmetry, though not necessarily at the very beginning. It's an interesting question with no clear answer at this point. (I presume you don't mean the diversity of elements, that being pretty well explained by the star life cycle.)
The distribution of energy and matter. I know same thing, but to apply the theory without a conflicting event, the universe should be either still homogenous or graded by age. The star lifecycle, as I understand it, happens as part of the existing system, not the begining of it.

WX
10-18-2009, 12:17 AM
The real brain F*ck is before the Big Bang there was nothing, no matter, no space and no time. It is not possible for the Human brain to visualize that...certainly not mine.
Yes I know there is nothing to visualize.

floatingkiwi
10-18-2009, 04:16 AM
Haec tempora dare sterco difficilem est

What does this mean. Something about diseases transmitted through the faeces of transvestites?

boylesboats
10-18-2009, 04:18 AM
Haec tempora dare sterco difficilem est

What does this mean. Something about diseases transmitted through the faeces of transvestites?

try online translation... BTW...which latin is that?

floatingkiwi
10-18-2009, 04:26 AM
You must get this word, beginning,out of your mind to understand the answer to the question is , it did not . The answer is the same if the question is asked in different ways , like, How did life begin , or, when did life begin, or why, or whatever. It never did. It has always been. Like time and space with neither a start or finish,life exists.
I think because the piece of meat with blood rushing around inside of it, that we call a brain, is a finite thing, we humans seem to have a need to place everything in a finite slot somewhere within the confines of numbers we can identify with, in order to understand it.
The term big bang is, to me, as close minded and old fashioned as people believing the world was flat or something your Mother would tell you, to not do things she didn't want you to.
Like, don't swallow seeds or a fruit tree would grow from your ears.

boylesboats
10-18-2009, 04:38 AM
uh...like...a virgin and the bee?

isla
10-18-2009, 05:59 AM
The real brain F*ck is before the Big Bang there was nothing, no matter, no space and no time. It is not possible for the Human brain to visualize that...certainly not mine.
Yes I know there is nothing to visualize.
I find it easy to visualize. It's just like boat building, but replace the word 'matter' with 'materials'..:p

John Smith
10-18-2009, 08:47 AM
I can only speak for myself, but wouldn't we be better off if we worried more about where we are going than where we came from.

We cannot do a thing about the ancestors we have, but we can certainly do something about what kind of ancestors we'll be.

I'd also still like someone to explain why this matters so much. It's a question to which no one has an answer, and one person not having an alternate answer in no way supports the answer another person believes, making this an exercise in futility.

Phillip Allen
10-18-2009, 09:19 AM
I'd also still like someone to explain why this matters so much. It's a question to which no one has an answer, and one person not having an alternate answer in no way supports the answer another person believes, making this an exercise in futility.

I can answer that in two words...government grants

pefjr
10-18-2009, 09:42 AM
I can only speak for myself, but wouldn't we be better off if we worried more about where we are going than where we came from.

We cannot do a thing about the ancestors we have, but we can certainly do something about what kind of ancestors we'll be.

I'd also still like someone to explain why this matters so much. It's a question to which no one has an answer, and one person not having an alternate answer in no way supports the answer another person believes, making this an exercise in futility.
Is that what you told your kids as they were growing up?

There is belief and there are answers. You choose.:)

Flying Orca
10-18-2009, 09:49 AM
The distribution of energy and matter. I know same thing, but to apply the theory without a conflicting event, the universe should be either still homogenous or graded by age. The star lifecycle, as I understand it, happens as part of the existing system, not the begining of it.

It's not so much a conflicting event as a part of it; the basic asymmetry leading to baryogenesis is thought to have existed either from the beginning (a minority view) or to have been introduced very early on (the majority view). Either way it is part of the theory, where "the theory" is understood to mean "the best mathematical description we can come up with for what we've observed".


Haec tempora dare sterco difficilem est

What does this mean. Something about diseases transmitted through the faeces of transvestites?

Er... no, nothing to do with transvestites. It's derived from a line from one of my favourite Lou Reed songs, "Romeo Had Juliet" from New York. I'm sure you could run it down if you wish.


You must get this word, beginning,out of your mind to understand the answer to the question is , it did not . The answer is the same if the question is asked in different ways , like, How did life begin , or, when did life begin, or why, or whatever. It never did. It has always been. Like time and space with neither a start or finish,life exists.
I think because the piece of meat with blood rushing around inside of it, that we call a brain, is a finite thing, we humans seem to have a need to place everything in a finite slot somewhere within the confines of numbers we can identify with, in order to understand it.
The term big bang is, to me, as close minded and old fashioned as people believing the world was flat or something your Mother would tell you, to not do things she didn't want you to.
Like, don't swallow seeds or a fruit tree would grow from your ears.

It's all well and good to want to believe that if you so desire, but how do you explain the multiple pieces of evidence that all point to the universe's rapid expansion from singularity a little less than 14 billion years ago? What's your competing theory, and what is its evidence? I think you should publish it.

JormaS
10-18-2009, 03:10 PM
It seems that humans can only handle concepts that have boundaries, and that start and end somewhere.

Therefore, to the ordinary person, Big Bangs must be occurrences taking place in the universe. The universe cannot be limited by a boundary, because then there would be ´empty´ space around it which then would represent the real universe.

In other words, we are unable to understand concepts like ´eternal´ and ´boundless´. Or are we?

Peerie Maa
10-18-2009, 04:21 PM
It seems that humans can only handle concepts that have boundaries, and that start and end somewhere.

Therefore, to the ordinary person, Big Bangs must be occurrences taking place in the universe. The universe cannot be limited by a boundary, because then there would be ´empty´ space around it which then would represent the real universe.

In other words, we are unable to understand concepts like ´eternal´ and ´boundless´. Or are we?

It takes different people different ways. It looks as though Floatingkiwi is coming from a spiritual direction. I don't have that sort of imagination, so I am happy with the fact that the finite speed of light sets a limit on how much of our universe we can see. That is a very definite boundary, beyond which we can have no knowledge. That is another boundary with which I am comfortable.

mizzenman
10-18-2009, 05:14 PM
I can only speak for myself, but wouldn't we be better off if we worried more about where we are going than where we came from.

We cannot do a thing about the ancestors we have, but we can certainly do something about what kind of ancestors we'll be.

I'd also still like someone to explain why this matters so much. It's a question to which no one has an answer, and one person not having an alternate answer in no way supports the answer another person believes, making this an exercise in futility.

Some say it will improve our morals.

Flying Orca
10-18-2009, 06:01 PM
Some say it will improve our morals.

They do, it's true. They do a piss-poor job of backing up that assertion with data, though. :p

ishmael
10-18-2009, 07:29 PM
When I studied evolutionary biology at the undergraduate level, and I studied it hard with good tutors, the question of ultimate origin was left blank. No one knew. There were speculations of primordial soups, and chemicals that got together, but when you got into origins the honest ones amongst the tutors shrugged their shoulders. A single celled organism, able to reproduce itself, is a long way from a chemical soup.

Not knowing isn't a repudiation of evolutionary biology, which is a well thought out and valid model. When you study it you see how environmental pressure changes organisms, including us.

But start talking where life began, and you are talking imponderables. It sure is lovely, in many ways. The grass is green in the summers, the Barred Owl still calls in the springtime, and people make their way as best they can.

pefjr
10-18-2009, 07:44 PM
The question asked on this thread is "Where" not how. The Garden of Eden? Okefenokee Swamp? or bottom of an Ocean?

John Smith
10-18-2009, 07:51 PM
Is that what you told your kids as they were growing up?

There is belief and there are answers. You choose.:)
Most people I know with answers only belief they have answers.

I'm of the opinion that if we were stuck on some island, it wouldn't matter if we were stuck there because a boat sank or a plane crashed. We'd still be stuck there.

I find "God" to be very much like the term "Migraine", in that both make people sound like they have some answers when they don't.

I did tell my kids, and I do tell my grandkids, to worry more about their future and less about the past. It's nice to learn from the past, but they have no control over things that have already happened. They have some control over their future.

John Smith
10-18-2009, 07:53 PM
It seems that humans can only handle concepts that have boundaries, and that start and end somewhere.

Therefore, to the ordinary person, Big Bangs must be occurrences taking place in the universe. The universe cannot be limited by a boundary, because then there would be ´empty´ space around it which then would represent the real universe.

In other words, we are unable to understand concepts like ´eternal´ and ´boundless´. Or are we?

Deep, very deep.

floatingkiwi
10-18-2009, 07:53 PM
Running down your signature was not at all my intention. It was an honest best shot at deciphering what I think is Latin,yes?
Yes, this rapid expansion thing that scientists tend to push on us as a way to say they know something new. Wow.
And as my understanding of infinity expands, so it appears the distances between heavenly bodies gets greater.
Not knockin' ya mate, aah 14 billion years. Where did that number come from? I reckon this planet has been here a lot longer than that, a lot longer than anyone could get close to guessing. I do.

John Smith
10-18-2009, 07:56 PM
When I studied evolutionary biology at the undergraduate level, and I studied it hard with good tutors, the question of ultimate origin was left blank. No one knew. There were speculations of primordial soups, and chemicals that got together, but when you got into origins the honest ones amongst the tutors shrugged their shoulders. A single celled organism, able to reproduce itself, is a long way from a chemical soup.

Not knowing isn't a repudiation of evolutionary biology, which is a well thought out and valid model. When you study it you see how environmental pressure changes organisms, including us.

But start talking where life began, and you are talking imponderables. It sure is lovely, in many ways. The grass is green in the summers, the Barred Owl still calls in the springtime, and people make their way as best they can.
Good post.

Life is good in many ways. Not in all ways, and for some it's better than it is for others. Lots of struggles, pain, and suffering along the way.

As I'm about to turn 65, I realize how many people I've known that I've outlived, and how much better off I am than many who are still living. Sobering thoughts.

floatingkiwi
10-18-2009, 07:58 PM
It seems that humans can only handle concepts that have boundaries, and that start and end somewhere.

Therefore, to the ordinary person, Big Bangs must be occurrences taking place in the universe. The universe cannot be limited by a boundary, because then there would be ´empty´ space around it which then would represent the real universe.

In other words, we are unable to understand concepts like ´eternal´ and ´boundless´. Or are we?
Infinity is not all that difficult to understand. Place your fingers pointing to each other about an inch apart. The distance you have there contains infinity. No matter,( excuse the word choice), how small it gets when you halve it, it can ALWAYS be halved agin. Now that is infinity displaying its endlessness in both directions just like it jolly well should.

S B
10-18-2009, 08:43 PM
It's not so much a conflicting event as a part of it; the basic asymmetry leading to baryogenesis is thought to have existed either from the beginning (a minority view) or to have been introduced very early on (the majority view). Either way it is part of the theory, where "the theory" is understood to mean "the best mathematical description we can come up with for what we've observed".



Er... no, nothing to do with transvestites. It's derived from a line from one of my favourite Lou Reed songs, "Romeo Had Juliet" from New York. I'm sure you could run it down if you wish.



It's all well and good to want to believe that if you so desire, but how do you explain the multiple pieces of evidence that all point to the universe's rapid expansion from singularity a little less than 14 billion years ago? What's your competing theory, and what is its evidence? I think you should publish it.
Time and space exist as measurable change, if no change was evident,both would cease to exist,. The Big Bang applied to a perfect world, one in equilibrium, the point of singularity now becomes the asymmetrical event. The resultant chaos creates change, time and space are formed. The chaos expands exponentially, universe forms. Might even explain the expansion of the universe, as the matter created on the outer wave has greater mass and gravity than the core.;)

Popeye
10-19-2009, 07:53 AM
i am certified to teach you guys softball

John Smith
10-19-2009, 08:06 AM
If life began someWHERE, placed had to exist before life. When did places begin.

Where is places begin?

pefjr
10-19-2009, 08:20 AM
Infinity is not all that difficult to understand. Place your fingers pointing to each other about an inch apart. The distance you have there contains infinity. No matter,( excuse the word choice), how small it gets when you halve it, it can ALWAYS be halved agin. Now that is infinity displaying its endlessness in both directions just like it jolly well should. I see :D

Popeye
10-19-2009, 08:58 AM
Where is places begin?

the earth is around 4.5 billion years old

are you still wondering out loud why this is important ?

John Smith
10-19-2009, 11:44 AM
the earth is around 4.5 billion years old

are you still wondering out loud why this is important ?
It would seem so.

isla
10-19-2009, 01:20 PM
I have a theory on this. Life, the universe and everything has not yet begun. I reckon when they finally manage to fire up the Large Hadron Collider thingy it will cause the big bang. This is not illogical because space/time will be thrown into a guddle, and the whole cycle will start from there. We are God (or maybe some guy at CERN might like the title).

PatCox
10-19-2009, 09:02 PM
Einstein wrote a great little short essay on how to imagine, visualize, the concept of bounded infinity. Thats as difficlt a thing to visualize as anything. I can visualize special relativity, its hard, but it has to do with understanding that if both time and space are variable, then local perceptions of time and distance are, well, relative. By the way, he also talks of how the concept of an "ether" is not that far off the mark, in some ways, and helps in visualizing relativity.

Anyway, bounded infinity, picture a globe. It is finite, yet its surface has no end.

PatCox
10-19-2009, 09:11 PM
John Smith, thats where it goes off the rails for me. I have a well-read and somewhat mathematically literate layman's understanding of the big bang, and I understand that under our concepts of physics, there was no "where" or "now" before the big bang. But I also understand that saying there was no "where" and no "now" before the big bang, when physicists say it, only means that our means of measuring and conceptualizing space and time have no meaning before the big bang, and that leaves me convinced that there must have been a where and a when before the big bang.

But here is a little thought I have had; if there is infinity, than can there be a finite? If the universe is infinite, how can any one "here" and "now" in the universe be? Everyone knows that 1/infinity is an "irrational" number. Well, the percentage of infinity that any one part of infinity is, is 1 over infinity. By our mathematics, can something that is 1 over infinity be said to exist? Something measured and defined by that irrational number, 1 over infinity?

S B
10-19-2009, 10:18 PM
John Smith, thats where it goes off the rails for me. I have a well-read and somewhat mathematically literate layman's understanding of the big bang, and I understand that under our concepts of physics, there was no "where" or "now" before the big bang. But I also understand that saying there was no "where" and no "now" before the big bang, when physicists say it, only means that our means of measuring and conceptualizing space and time have no meaning before the big bang, and that leaves me convinced that there must have been a where and a when before the big bang.

But here is a little thought I have had; if there is infinity, than can there be a finite? If the universe is infinite, how can any one "here" and "now" in the universe be? Everyone knows that 1/infinity is an "irrational" number. Well, the percentage of infinity that any one part of infinity is, is 1 over infinity. By our mathematics, can something that is 1 over infinity be said to exist? Something measured and defined by that irrational number, 1 over infinity?
Being alive,you are in a constant state of change. Phisically the air at the other side of the room will be you shortly and you will be part of the condensation on the window. The thoughts of someone else will alter the arrangements of the neurons in your brain or the light from a distant star will stop you in your tracks.To define yourself in finite terms you must pick a point in history to do so, like the time between the past and the present,which in my estimation would equate to; sum total of the universe X 1/ infinity.

Kaa
10-19-2009, 10:33 PM
But I also understand that saying there was no "where" and no "now" before the big bang,

Not exactly. Contemporary physics says we can know nothing of what there was before the Big Bang. There might as well have been some "where" and some "now" -- it's just that we, even theoretically, can know nothing of it.


But here is a little thought I have had; if there is infinity, than can there be a finite? If the universe is infinite,

Again, contemporary physics does not hold the universe is infinite. It is a finite "bubble" expanding from the Big Bang point.


Everyone knows that 1/infinity is an "irrational" number. Well, the percentage of infinity that any one part of infinity is, is 1 over infinity.

Um, I don't think that 1/infinity is an irrational number. An irrational number is the one that cannot be represented as a fraction. For example, pi is an irrational number. So is e. I don't think 1/infinity makes any sense -- any more than 1/0, for example.

Anyway, infinities are where math breaks down, mostly. The universe around us is not infinite. It consists of countable things.

Kaa

S B
10-19-2009, 11:28 PM
Not exactly. Contemporary physics says we can know nothing of what there was before the Big Bang. There might as well have been some "where" and some "now" -- it's just that we, even theoretically, can know nothing of it.



Again, contemporary physics does not hold the universe is infinite. It is a finite "bubble" expanding from the Big Bang point.



Um, I don't think that 1/infinity is an irrational number. An irrational number is the one that cannot be represented as a fraction. For example, pi is an irrational number. So is e. I don't think 1/infinity makes any sense -- any more than 1/0, for example.

Anyway, infinities are where math breaks down, mostly. The universe around us is not infinite. It consists of countable things.

Kaa
" We can no nothing" translates to" we no nothing,but don't cahallenge our authority."
The Big Bang is best guess so far,good enough to keep the funding going. Many to come.
The universe does consist of countable things,an infinite number of 'em.

Kaa
10-19-2009, 11:29 PM
The universe does consist of countable things,an infinite number of 'em.

How do you know, did you count..? :D

Kaa

S B
10-19-2009, 11:41 PM
How do you know, did you count..? :D

Kaa
Had a hard time after the fingers and toes, had to give up.:D

floatingkiwi
10-20-2009, 12:44 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/BlackHole_Lensing.gif

I thinkthe universe has a bunch of black holes all over the place. It is what is formed around those holes is what I think is where it's all at. Like the current on the sea floor being split by a big rock, is where you will find the fish, or the catalytic event that happens at the Golden Gate is where all the fog hangs out.
Space is full of magnetism. There is evidence of it here on Earth. Place a magnetic rod under a sheet of paper with iron filings on top and see the shape of magnetism. It is that shape in which magnetism of huge proportion,( compared to what we play with), that exists 3 dimensionally at opposing ends of the black holes. Matter is sucked in one end and spat out the other. Our galaxy and the milky way with all the Magellenic clouds and everything we can see is in one end of what is being spat out of a hole and THIS is why everything seems to be expanding. Simple.
I believe when we find a way to harness this intergalactic magnetism instead of fighting each other like squabbling schoolchildren, we will learn the ways with which to bring two points in space together simutaneously, resulting in time travel and the possibilities are... well, it sure will be fun to find out.

floatingkiwi
10-20-2009, 01:11 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/LorentzianWormhole.jpg/180px-LorentzianWormhole.jpg
General relativity describes the possibility of configurations in which two black holes are connected to each other. Such a configuration is usually called a wormhole (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Wormhole). Wormholes have inspired science fiction (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Science_fiction) authors because they offer a means to travel quickly over long distances and even time travel. In practice, such configurations seem completely unfeasible in astrophysics, because no known process seems to allow the formation of such objects.

floatingkiwi
10-20-2009, 01:12 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/BH_LMC.png/180px-BH_LMC.png

Simulated view of a black hole in front of the Large Magellanic Cloud (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Large_Magellanic_Cloud). The ratio between the black hole Schwarzschild radius and the observer distance to it is 1:9. Of note is the gravitational lensing effect known as an Einstein ring (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Einstein_ring), which produces a set of two fairly bright and large but highly distorted images of the Cloud as compared to its actual angular size

floatingkiwi
10-20-2009, 01:26 AM
I believe that physical properties of gravity and magnetism , light ,the way things are attracted to each other , or repelled, along with a bunch of other things visible or not, known or unknown, all exist or behave in much the same way regardless of size difference. A grain of sugar is no less sweeter than a truckload, the atom is the same shape and behaves similarly to our solar system.
http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/ask/barmagnet.gif
This shape is throughout the universe on a grand scale.

Captain Blight
10-20-2009, 01:56 AM
This is actually a very punk-rock aesthetic: Does life tend toward chaos or order? Does order give rise to chaos, as all processes tend toward entropy? Or is entropy necessary to shape and define order?

Big questions. Small answers.

mizzenman
10-20-2009, 02:16 AM
I believe that physical properties of gravity and magnetism , light ,the way things are attracted to each other , or repelled, along with a bunch of other things visible or not, known or unknown, all exist or behave in much the same way regardless of size difference. A grain of sugar is no less sweeter than a truckload, the atom is the same shape and behaves similarly to our solar system.
http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/ask/barmagnet.gif
This shape is throughout the universe on a grand scale.

I don't think planets behave like waves...

seanz
10-20-2009, 03:04 AM
This is actually a very punk-rock aesthetic: Does life tend toward chaos or order? Does order give rise to chaos, as all processes tend toward entropy? Or is entropy necessary to shape and define order?

Big questions. Small answers.

Maybe we live in a universe that just pretends to be all chaotic but actually lives in its parent's basement.


I don't think planets behave like waves...

I scanned over this quickly and I missed the "don't" and thought it was the cleverest thing I'd read in the Bilge for a long time.....now I feel.......I dunno.......what do you call it when you've lost all your energy?
:)


Tonight on Fox News; Light? Waves or Particles? You decide!

mizzenman
10-20-2009, 05:39 AM
Relieved?

Popeye
10-20-2009, 07:53 AM
Does life tend toward chaos or order?

good question , here is the answer :

yes

the 'theory of everything' will describe a deterministic model governing the universe

Keith Wilson
10-20-2009, 09:08 AM
Does life tend toward chaos or order? Does order give rise to chaos, as all processes tend toward entropy? Or is entropy necessary to shape and define order?Yes.
:)

floatingkiwi
10-20-2009, 09:20 AM
Paleontolgy and its study of prehistoric life and its relationship to biology and geology,( all wonderful things to get into), base all of its information on fossils and rocks etc. These findings result in timelines and a bunch of figures with lots of zeros and such. Now, doesn't geology also claim that the crust of the earth is continually being thrust upward by tectonic movement and eroding away, falling as silt on the sea floor for example, being compressed and eventually finding its way to the molten matter below to be thrust up again. Every finding and every clue that these professions discover with which to base a number of years as to when life started on this planet , are from things in the last upthrust since being molten.
How many times has this planet revolved its crusty matter is such a way, distorting and eradicating all the clues of its past each time it does?
Duh.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9ce01b3127ccef83c3f2d0e0e00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

Popeye
10-20-2009, 09:24 AM
How many times has this planet revolved its crusty matter is such a way, distorting and eradicating all the clues of its past each time it does?. zero times

unless you have some sort of perfectly homogeneous mixing model in mind , which is extremely difficult to demonstrate , since we would have no volcanic's and no fossils left to study , which we do

you have defeated your own argument

mobjack68
10-20-2009, 09:30 AM
couldn't have been the chicken so it must have been the egg...

isla
10-20-2009, 09:32 AM
If string theory is the first candidate for the Theory of Everything (TOE) I hope God hasn't got a cat.

http://islawoodcraft.co.uk/catstring.jpg

ishmael
10-20-2009, 09:33 AM
When I studied Jung, one of the offshoots of our group was a study of Amer-Indian practice and belief. From the East coast, through the upper Mid-west and out onto the plains the tribes had a basically common understanding. In typical fashion, the Christians(largely) who moved in and stole their land misinterpreted the Indian image of the sacred and called it "Great Spirit" "Big Daddy", and thought of it as a primitive cognate of their God. From what I came to understand, the Amer-Indian's actual sense, though it's difficult to translate into English, was "Great Mysterious." Much more akin to Taoist notions of the sacred than Christian.

FWIW. A bit off topic.

pefjr
10-20-2009, 09:37 AM
[quote=floatingkiwi;2356927]
How many times has this planet revolved its crusty matter is such a way, distorting and eradicating all the clues of its past each time it does?
Duh.QUOTE]

Not enough to eliminate the fossil record of life.

But, you asked where did life begin?

Popeye
10-20-2009, 09:40 AM
A bit off topic.
not a'tall

i like the way the guys project their personalized notions of christianity as a fallout of western culture , some sort of a weird and modernized aberration , an anomaly even :rolleyes::D

looks like the usual 10 against 1

pity the 10

Tom Montgomery
10-20-2009, 09:41 AM
The theory of Intelligent Design in a nutshell:

• Complexity can only be created by Design
• Biology is extremely complex
• Biology was created by Design

Q.E.D.

Popeye
10-20-2009, 09:49 AM
the competing theory :

particles will eventually form themselves into humans

it is not understood exactly how they do this

but we hold this to be true

Popeye
10-20-2009, 09:55 AM
like banging your head against concrete with rebar ain't it

my advice would be to stop

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-20-2009, 10:31 AM
How many times has this planet revolved its crusty matter is such a way, distorting and eradicating all the clues of its past each time it does?
Duh.

Not enough to eliminate the fossil record of life.

But, you asked where did life begin?

There is just one quote for this topic:

...We find no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end

Popeye
10-20-2009, 11:47 AM
known knowns
known unknowns
unknown knowns
unknown unknowns

narrative jello

PatCox
10-20-2009, 10:27 PM
Life is the only thing that tends to make order of disorder, which reverses entropy, which is miraculous.

WX
10-20-2009, 10:38 PM
Life is the only thing that tends to make order of disorder, which reverses entropy, which is miraculous.
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2357896)
Red tape being a prime example. :D

Popeye
10-23-2009, 06:24 AM
intelligence being another example

floatingkiwi
10-23-2009, 06:09 PM
zero times

unless you have some sort of perfectly homogeneous mixing model in mind , which is extremely difficult to demonstrate , since we would have no volcanic's and no fossils left to study , which we do

you have defeated your own argument
I am not argueing. Just stating opinions.

BrianY
10-23-2009, 07:08 PM
Life is the only thing that tends to make order of disorder, which reverses entropy, which is miraculous.

The crystalization of minerals is certianly an example of "order (out) of disorder". Does that mean that you think that crystals are "life"?