VHF "over"

[novapamela]

Hi all,

Can you give me an idea of a typical "structure" of a VHF call between friends.

I know most of the lingo, but I want to know if you really say "Over" after every comment to signal the end of that comment?

Thanks!

Pamela

[Ian McColgin]

Among the great unwashed, the difference between VHF and CB has blurred. THey don't hail correctly. Closest they get is something like, "Chuck, you there?" They gossip on 16. And because they don't say over, they sometimes both talk at once, which is ok since they are not listening anyway.

Unless both parties have duplex, say "Over".

[novapamela]

Thanks Ian,

I know the proper protocol and how that differs from CB. Just wasn't sure if the etiquette wanes-specifically re: "over"-when it's just between friends/family.

Thanks for the prompt reply!

[willmarsh3]

An example.

Me: Slow motion, slow motion, slow motion this is Sailboat Andrea Lynn, over
Dave: This is slow motion. Switch to 68, over
we both switch to 68 and talk about what ever we are doing e.g. racing, raft up, etc.
finally:
Me: Andrea Lynn out.
Dave: Slow motion out.
We switch back to 16 and continue monitoring there.

Occasionaly though we skip the "over" when it's quite obvious that we are through saying something and it's the other's turn to say something back.

[Bill R]

What Ian said. According to the USCG Boating Skills and Seamanship, 12th Edition, Chapter 13, page 10:

"OVER"- "This is the end of my transmission and a response is expected. Go ahead, transmit. Omit when clearly not needed"

"OUT"- "This is the end of my transmission to you. No answer is required or expected"

[John B]

Roger Roger, whats yer vector Victor.

[kc8pql]

Maybe it's the Ham operator in me, but I think proper protocol should always be used. It just makes communication clearer and more accurate, and that after all is the whole point.

[Hwyl]

One of the great unwashed raises his hand. In a conversation between friends on a proper working channel, "over" would be redundant.

I'm assuming you know that "over and out" should never be used. I usually say "Standing by 16" .

Your protagonist is Canadian as I remember, most non U.S. sailors have little time for the U.S. coast guard, and they, the USCG are amongst the worst abusers of the VHF system. One spectacular example being the fact that they use a working channel, 22 Alpha, that foreign radios don't have.


May the flack begin.

[novapamela]

Thanks all.

Now, how about some help re: VHF range?

I found the formula and online line of sight calculators and such, but I don't know about antenna heights and horizon figures and such. So. What could be a possible maximum range for communication via VHF?

Thanks!

[novapamela]

One of the great unwashed raises his hand. In a conversation between friends on a proper working channel, "over" would be redundant.

I'm assuming you know that "over and out" should never be used. I usually say "Standing by 16" .

Your protagonist is Canadian as I remember, most non U.S. sailors have little time for the U.S. coast guard, and they, the USCG are amongst the worst abusers of the VHF system. One spectacular example being the fact that they use a working channel, 22 Alpha, that foreign radios don't have.

May the flack begin.

Thanks, Gareth!

Yes, he's Canadian. I've witnessed the dropping of "over" between friends and that suits my scene. He's not a by the books kinda guy anyway...

So, I only have VHF experience in Florida and the BVIs. Does it differ in Canada?

Thanks again.

[Hwyl]

No, no different in Canada as far as I know. The other thing you should know is that far offshore, say a 100 miles or so the "no conversation on 16 thing" is generally disregarded, I'm with Ian on this and find that a bad practice. I'll generally "switch".

I'm guessing VHF''s bought in Canada will be of the U.S. type, if it was made within the last couple of years and has DSC it will know when it is entering International waters and will annoyingly beep for the operator to switch it over.

Does your protaganist have a SSB and is he listening to Herb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Hilgenberg

[novapamela]

Gareth, I know about Herb... Yes, he IS listening to Herb.

Single-sideband thingy, right? modulator? transceiver? Would a (poor) salty sailor use one? I guess he would. What do you think?

[Bill R]

Thanks all.

Now, how about some help re: VHF range?

I found the formula and online line of sight calculators and such, but I don't know about antenna heights and horizon figures and such. So. What could be a possible maximum range for communication via VHF?

Thanks!

Hard to answer, as it is due to a combination of transmitter power, antenna height and antenna range.

VHF is generally for short range "local" communications. According to my source mentioned above, the USCG BS&S manual, average ship-to-ship is 10-15 miles, with a handheld VHF tranceiver being considerably less. (ch 13-2)

[Hwyl]

Yes SSB's are going out of fashion now, in favour of Iridium Sat phones and internet. Herb is lamenting that he's not as busy as he used to be. So your guy would be right there. The RTW racers are no longer required to have SSB's so it would be a nice touch if your man got his cheap from a distance racer.

You do know that Herb is quite conservative, he'll tell people to hove to, if they're going to encounter more than 25 knots, even if it's from the right direction. He'll get irate when people disregard/disobey his advice. Makes for a lot of fun.

[Ian McColgin]

Certain shore stations have amazing range due to high towers, great power and wonderous sensitivity. On the tugs we could talk easily to others up to about 20 miles off but could talk to our NYC base from Buzzards Bay and beyond.

If you monitor 16 you'll often hear the CG side of a chat and not the boat. In Hyannis we can easily hear CG stations from Long Island Sound to Boston, sometimes to Portland. But never the boat.

One of my pet annoyances - actually two interrelated - is the folk who use 16 as a non-emergency call-up frequency in US waters. The other thing, since I've only one radio and scan 09-13-16, is the dinks who want a radio check and don't say who or where they are or what channel they are on.

Then there's the folk who manage to sit on the mike key so we hear their cockpit chatter, the stereo, and other noises too intimate to mention.

[novapamela]

This is all very interesting.

So, conversely, what's the best long range solution? Sat phone? Cell?

[paladin]

On a perfectly clear day the normal range of a VHF radio is 10-14 miles, assuming, that the antenna is at the mast head. From a handheld radio you might be pushing the range, assuming 1 or 5 watt radio, to be between 3-5 miles with the radio at deck level. If you double the power of your radio, the maximum increase in signal that you might expect would be 1 "s" unit on the radio. The maximum power for the VHF marine band is 25 watts.
Normal range , for every have a very high gain antenna, like 9 db, you are actually raising the radiation pattern above the horizon and directing the energy upward into the atmosphere. Aboard a boat, a 3-4 db gain antenna should be the most ever used in an omnidirectional pattern.

[Ian McColgin]

I can't always help switiching up to listen in on conversations between fishing boats.

"Ya Joe, where you? Ovah."

"'Bout the same place as last week. You? Ovah."

"Maybe five miles south of the other place. Any fortune? Ovah."

"Hardly even a by-catch. You? Ovah."

"I'd sell this damn boat and permit but no one buying. See ya Joe. Rebecca Jane returning 16."

"You bet. Kara Dawn returning 16."

By Wednesday both boats are easing back at the town dock laden down to the stern ramp. Some think their pessamistic lying is to decieve other fishermen but we know that they were just being sure that the sea gods and goddesses don't overhear and mess them up.

[BarnacleGrim]

Don't bother with 'over'. When you stop talking it means you're finished. Just keep it short, clear and concise.

[Ian McColgin]

People who

were trained

in

the PBS

school

of radio diction need

to say

"Over."

So yes. Plenty of folk manage incomplete and actually pointless non-communication by deleting the "over" just as plenty of folk defy spelling and punctuation norms and still imagin they communicate. We who are dyslectic and struggle with it will try everything for clarity. Over.

[rbgarr]

I heard somewhere that handheld VHFs and masthead antennae can get slightly better reception in a horizontal plane rather than vertical. If so, why?

[paladin]

A vertical antenna will emit a vertically polarized signal....when the signal gets 300 wavelengths from the source, the pattern may actually be circular, or twisted. For instand...signals rotate in free space, like a corkscrew.In a fixed short distand, the antenna may radiate a vertically polarized signal......but away from the "action" or in free soace, the signal tends to roll, or corkscrew. At 160 mhz the signal will start corkscrewing at around 100-300 meters from the source. The anomalies in the atmosphere help also.

[floatingkiwi]

Hard to answer, as it is due to a combination of transmitter power, antenna height and antenna range.

VHF is generally for short range "local" communications. According to my source mentioned above, the USCG BS&S manual, average ship-to-ship is 10-15 miles, with a handheld VHF tranceiver being considerably less. (ch 13-2)


WARNING:

The radio frequencies used in the VHF marine band
lie between 156 and 158 MHz with NOAA Weather
stations available between 161 and 163 MHz. The
marine VHF band provides communications over distances
that are essentially “line of sight” Actual transmission range depends
much more on antenna type, gain and height than on the power output of the
transmitter. On a fixed mount 25W radio transmission expected distances
can be greater than 15 miles. A portable 5W radio transmission expected
distance can be greater than 5 miles “line of sight.”

[Canoeyawl]

The language between boats at sea can be colloquial. However, the message between the Coast Guard or another government agency and a vessel will be very formal and succinct, and a situation can often dictate this procedure from anyone.
But as you move down the food chain from there, it can become more casual.
Between professional mariners, fishermen and towboats having a late night gam offshore all bets are off, except - Individuals often use an expression like “OK” or “Aye” rather than the formal “Over” to indicate end of speech and expecting a reply (they know they are using a radio!)
I used to love listening to those guys when I had the middle watch.
They were poets and genius and the best story-tellers (liars) I have ever heard, and they were all anonymous, just a voice in the dark wheelhouse.

Communication between weekend warriors can be absurd - no clue - no rules at all.

Here (http://www.gardk9.org/uploads/SAR_Comm_Info.pdf) as an example of formality, is a procedure for radio communication used in search and rescue

[AstoriaDave]

My experience suggests that at 5 W power HH VHF's from near-water level are limited to about 3 nm maximum to another similarly-located HH VHF. As a longtime paddler, I know that to reach out in an emergency I have to get to the beach and raise my elevation. Standing on the beach and using a HH 5 W VHF, I've carried on good transmissions with a base station at about 30 ft elevation off an 8 ft whip at a distance of 8-10 miles. Use of the radio while on the beach is not legit except during an emergency; the couple times I have had to do this, neither the USCG nor the CCG cared or asked.

Re: International/Canadian channels vs US channels: every VHF I have owned (including HH's) has had a mode selector which will shift the frequency matrix to each of those choices, as indicated on the display. Isn't this now more or less expecte on new radios?

I never hear "over" locally (Columbia River commercial shipping and barge traffic, primarily; also USCG exchanges with vessels in distress, except for the use of "break" and "break break.") I believe the latter has the same meaning as "over." No idea why "over" is not in use.

Another local usage is this way of clearing a channel after concluding use: "Shipshaft clear; standing by, chanels 16 and 13." This seems a good way to tell everyone you are done with the channel, and which channels you will be monitoring.

[willmarsh3]

When sailing in Herrington Harbor near Deale, MD I would sometimes hear a hail for the St Michaels water taxi. Since that is some 15 - 20 miles away from my location I knew immediately that they were using the 25 watt setting instead of the 5 watt setting like they were supposed to. It was funny. :D

[paladin]

That's what happens when you let someone that grew up with a CB to have a new toy without any education....they think they need high power to talk over top of everyone else. I would be anchored Poplar Island with the VHF on monitor and the volume turned down, and could not hear the radio at St. Michaels because all the weenies in Annapolis had their radios on the hi power setting.

[rbgarr]

A vertical antenna will emit a vertically polarized signal....when the signal gets 300 wavelengths from the source, the pattern may actually be circular, or twisted. For instand...signals rotate in free space, like a corkscrew.In a fixed short distand, the antenna may radiate a vertically polarized signal......but away from the "action" or in free soace, the signal tends to roll, or corkscrew. At 160 mhz the signal will start corkscrewing at around 100-300 meters from the source. The anomalies in the atmosphere help also.

So the orientation of the antenna has no impact?

[paladin]

not as a general rule after 100 wavelengths or thereabouts....however...you can never tell what the orientation will be at your location, sometimes you can hear perfectly well, but it you tilt the antenna, especially with a handheld, you may notice a slight, or not so slight increase or decrease in gain. That's why many commercial systems use antennas with cross or circular polarization, something that you cannot get with a "whip" antenna.

[novapamela]

Yes SSB's are going out of fashion now, in favour of Iridium Sat phones and internet. Herb is lamenting that he's not as busy as he used to be. So your guy would be right there. The RTW racers are no longer required to have SSB's so it would be a nice touch if your man got his cheap from a distance racer.

You do know that Herb is quite conservative, he'll tell people to hove to, if they're going to encounter more than 25 knots, even if it's from the right direction. He'll get irate when people disregard/disobey his advice. Makes for a lot of fun.

"out of fashion" - that's my guy, and "cheap". :)

could you give me a little mini-intro to SSB? Maybe a brand name? Possible range? My web search returned mega-technical stuff. :P

[paladin]

Brand name...ICOM is probably the most popular.....
SSB stands for single sideband, developed by a radio amateur named Art Collins, Collins radio......it is a modulation technique where the main carrier is suppressed and one sideband. A radio transmission consists of a signal generated, commonly called the carrier, and then amplitude modulated. The signal of modulation is symetrical around the carrier, resulting in the intelligence or information being transmitted twice at the same time. The Intelligence on the upper sideband comprises 25% of the energy expended in transmitting the signal, the lower sideband is 25 % and the carrier is 50%. Since you only need to transmit the intelligence, special filters or techniques are used to "filter out" the carrier and one sideband. In commercial radios only one sideband is transmitted, but on amateur radios this is selectable. The benefit is that all this signal processing may be done very efficiently at very low levels with a minimal amount of power. When you need to really transmit the signal a long distance you must amplify it. If you use a 200 watt amplifier with conventional "amplitude modulated" signals, only 25% or 50 watts will contribute to the end transmission. By eliminating one sideband and the carrier the entire 200 watts may be used to transmit the information/intelligence. By selecting the proper frequency range and the time of day or night, 200 watts will transmit around the world. A good antenna is half the project. I carried a pair of Icom 735 radios, 100 watts each, o0n my boat around the world, before that a Sideband engineers SB-34 rated at 60 watts. I could reach net control in Hong Kong from anywhere between Hawaii and the Atlantic under good conditions, usually late evenings or during the night.
At night the atmosphere cools, and there is above the earth a layer of ionized air, called the Kennelly-Heaviside Layer...During the day it's usually about 250 miles up...during the night it comes as close as 50 miles, and depending on the frequency, or wavelength of the radio signal, it will bounce between the eart to the Layer, to the eart to the layer on around the world.

[Bill R]

Chuck beat me to it...

[novapamela]

Brand name...ICOM is probably the most popular.....
SSB stands for single sideband, developed by a radio amateur named Art Collins, Collins radio......it is a modulation technique where the main carrier is suppressed and one sideband. A radio transmission consists of a signal generated, commonly called the carrier, and then amplitude modulated. The signal of modulation is symetrical around the carrier, resulting in the intelligence or information being transmitted twice at the same time. The Intelligence on the upper sideband comprises 25% of the energy expended in transmitting the signal, the lower sideband is 25 % and the carrier is 50%. Since you only need to transmit the intelligence, special filters or techniques are used to "filter out" the carrier and one sideband. In commercial radios only one sideband is transmitted, but on amateur radios this is selectable. The benefit is that all this signal processing may be done very efficiently at very low levels with a minimal amount of power. When you need to really transmit the signal a long distance you must amplify it. If you use a 200 watt amplifier with conventional "amplitude modulated" signals, only 25% or 50 watts will contribute to the end transmission. By eliminating one sideband and the carrier the entire 200 watts may be used to transmit the information/intelligence. By selecting the proper frequency range and the time of day or night, 200 watts will transmit around the world. A good antenna is half the project. I carried a pair of Icom 735 radios, 100 watts each, o0n my boat around the world, before that a Sideband engineers SB-34 rated at 60 watts. I could reach net control in Hong Kong from anywhere between Hawaii and the Atlantic under good conditions, usually late evenings or during the night.
At night the atmosphere cools, and there is above the earth a layer of ionized air, called the Kennelly-Heaviside Layer...During the day it's usually about 250 miles up...during the night it comes as close as 50 miles, and depending on the frequency, or wavelength of the radio signal, it will bounce between the eart to the Layer, to the eart to the layer on around the world.

Perfect!

Thank you!

[paladin]

aw heck, lass munth ah koodint spel injuneer now I arr wun.....

[Captain Blight]

On the river tugs, we never used "over." there's a little burst of static when the mic is unkeyed that takes the place of "over." Mind you, witht the handhelds on HI power I had all of 5 watts to broadcast with; on rainy or snowy days, or during sunspot activity,they won't reliably broadcast from the head of the tow back to the boat (1000-1600 ft.). Made me wonder just how well I was really being listened to.