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View Full Version : A chance at a 338-378 Weatherby



coelacanth2
10-10-2009, 09:20 PM
Lightly used - less than 30 rounds through it, victim i should imagine of the recession and it's annoyance factor. I seem to be relatively immune to recoil thump (probably because I'm stupid, denser than osmium , or both). Anybody here have any experience with the little buggers?

purri
10-10-2009, 09:31 PM
Despite Elmer's endorsement I believe it's a solution looking for a problem.

Captain Blight
10-10-2009, 09:37 PM
It doesn't do anything that the .338 Lapua doesn't do better and cheaper.

BrianW
10-10-2009, 10:07 PM
Not a fan of the Weatherby cartridges.

Standby though, and Paul will be along to extol it's virtues.

seanz
10-10-2009, 10:19 PM
I Googled it......I learn so much that way. :D

It's a magnum.........oooooooh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338-378_Weatherby_Magnum

And it has more than three times the recoil of a 30-06 (says Wiki), so, are you getting younger?
:)

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
10-10-2009, 10:35 PM
They're great for Elk hunting.
If somebody gave one to me, I'd take it for sure.
If I'm spending my own money, I'd buy something cheaper.


http://www.snipersparadise.com/newproducts/images/Wrath-3.jpg

Paul Pless
10-10-2009, 11:19 PM
Not a fan of the Weatherby cartridges.

Standby though, and Paul will be along to extol it's virtues.Its true, I like Weatherby's a lot, especially the .257 and the .300. (I'm not BR shooter, so I don't need every last bit of intrinsic accuracy that a cartridge is capable of.) Above .30 caliber not so much for some reason, I guess I find the big H&H's and Rigbys more 'cooler'; plus while not recoil shy that's some serious thump. I'll assume its a Weatherby rifle, probably a Mark V... they're excellent in my experience. Not so sure that the big lapua round would be much cheaper, not in the United States at least - fwiw they're both pretty rare. If it were me, and I needed the kinda terminal performance that the round is capable of, I'd probably opt for the slightly less powerful .375 H&H.

Wonder what equivalent cartridges Brian uses, I think he's got a couple of Wildcat rifles that are on up there in size for big North American game.... for some reason i seem to recall its .416 Taylor in a semi custom Winchester.

pila
10-10-2009, 11:31 PM
A friend has had a 300 Weatherby for years, that he used for deer hunting. I've never fired it. Looks to be a well made weapon.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
10-10-2009, 11:37 PM
I'll assume its a Weatherby rifle, probably a Mark V... they're excellent in my experience.



More like this eh?


http://www.accuratereloading.com/hh244.jpg

Paul Pless
10-10-2009, 11:42 PM
More like this eh?


That looks like a sporterized Mauser 98.

Paul Pless
10-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Unfortunately (in my view at least), I believe the 'new' -338 and -378 cartridges from Weatherby are available only in Weatherby's Composite/Stainless 'accumark' rifles.

bobbys
10-10-2009, 11:51 PM
I gave my son who is a guide my Winchester model 70 in 300 Weatherby, He said he shot a running coyote at 600 yards, I doubt i could see a coyote at 600 yards, Sounds unbelievable but hes a sharpshooter. He put a very expensive scope on it..

I am just using my old model 70 in 3006..

I dont wanna pay 80 bucks for a box of shells, Although he gets a guide deal for 60 bucks

Paul Pless
10-11-2009, 12:05 AM
A running shot at 600 yards??? To quote JCSOH...

Whatever

purri
10-11-2009, 12:20 AM
It's called hunting not shooting (or sniping) for good reason. IMO the 257AI goes way better job than the Roy and the 404 Jeff moreso than the 416.

coelacanth2
10-11-2009, 01:04 AM
Well, I can get it for just over 1000 USD, I can reload for the occassional bit of fun, and the accumark is sorta "ugly/cool". As was noted, it may be a solution looking for a problem. But it's fun looking for that problem. Simmons ATEK 4x14 scope on and sighted comes with it.

bobbys
10-11-2009, 01:26 AM
A running shot at 600 yards??? To quote JCSOH...

Whatever .

The gun was 3000, 1600 dollar Swarovski binoculars, 2500 dollar scope, 2500 dollar spotting scope, 28 year old eagle eyes, Hunting and shooting since he was 9, Hunts as a big game guide as a job makes for a good shot.

I go with him and look out 100 yards he looks out 4 canyons over.

He has that Winchester dialed in.

He gets 1500 dollar tips from his clients and has a 100 percent success rate{course its a private ranch} and the hunters insist on him as there guide..

This is all true..

But now im sorry i said anything as i just sound like a blowheart so its just a story!

Stiletto
10-11-2009, 02:06 AM
A running coyote at six hundred yards doesnt sound like hunting to me, it sounds like showoff target practice.

seanz
10-11-2009, 03:39 AM
The hard part is getting the coyote to run under the Acme anvil just as you shoot the rope that's holding it up in the air.




I saw it on TV






:)

purri
10-11-2009, 04:52 AM
Still it's sniping.

purri
10-11-2009, 05:06 AM
More like this eh?


http://www.accuratereloading.com/hh244.jpg

Looks more like a 50's Holland with WIN safety. Perhaps an FN 98 action?

Paul Pless
10-11-2009, 06:50 AM
Looks more like a 50's Holland with WIN safety. Perhaps an FN 98 action?See post #10.:)

Probably not a Holland and Holland, even their field grade guns have very high grade stocks. Also they usually use a barrel band front sling mount on their bolt guns - for that classic safari rifle look. Also nobody would butcher a true H&H with those multipiece scope ring mounts spanning the bolt. Aesthtically its a nicely done bit of work though, except for the probably recent addition of too large a scope, with the attendent too high of mounts. Call me old fashioned... what the hell... here I am posting on a 'woodenboat' forum.

Paul Pless
10-11-2009, 06:51 AM
Well, I can get it for just over 1000 USD, I can reload for the occassional bit of fun, and the accumark is sorta "ugly/cool". As was noted, it may be a solution looking for a problem. But it's fun looking for that problem. Simmons ATEK 4x14 scope on and sighted comes with it.
Sounds like a pretty good deal. You can reload for pennies.

paladin
10-11-2009, 11:54 AM
It's not a Holland.....I have two...and both have the cheap stocks...all French Graft Walnut. The damned stocks cost more than most American made rifles., The grain shows well, and doesn't glare at you.
That 600 yard shot with a fixed scope is better than damned good. I use a leatherwood ART 1000 and it autoranges to over 1000 yards with the cams that I have, and I have made such shots from a bench rest, maybe slightly over...never a running shot. The best one was probably a wolverine at 300 yards.

Phillip Allen
10-11-2009, 12:05 PM
Weatherby was not the reloader's friend

Paul Pless
10-11-2009, 12:19 PM
Weatherby was not the reloader's friendWhy do you say this?

Are you referring to the inabilty to get the bullet to reach the lands, or to the fact that the shoulder of the cartridge case often changes dimensions so much on fired cases, or something else entirely?

Phillip Allen
10-11-2009, 02:07 PM
the double radius shoulder (a simple marketing ploy...meant to appeal to the "special" crowd) tends to telescope back into the case while seating bullets...it has no structural (geometric) strength

Paul Pless
10-11-2009, 02:43 PM
I guess that might be an issue for someone that's used to loading brass that looks like this.;)

http://www.cowboyshootingstore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/STAR-4570-250-2T.jpg

Actually that's not a problem I've ever had when reloading either for the .300 or the .257. I have had primers comes out (not a big deal) and I've had a ruptured case. (doing something stoopid) - glad I learned that lesson with a big husky bolt action rifle instead of old single action pistol or even worse a 1911.

I figured if there you were gonna complain about a feature that was there as a marketing ploy it would be that big ole superfluous belt.

Phillip Allen
10-11-2009, 03:20 PM
Paul...I have loaded many bottle-neck calibers...I got bored with them

purri
10-11-2009, 05:21 PM
Definitely set up for a magnum cartridge, see the cut out in the front reciever ring. Might be a Griffin and Howe. BTW the scope mounts are EAW (Ernst Apel: Wurtzburg) "swing off" type. The back base incorporates a small lever that disengages then you turn the rear of the scope to the right and voila. (Robert's your father's brother).

Phillip Allen
10-11-2009, 06:12 PM
Roy Wetherby used old Mausers when he first got started (cheap and plentyful)...perhaps it's one of those

purri
10-11-2009, 07:02 PM
Maybe but look at the front sight. Ithas a flip up hood operated by a knurled button on the rhs, typical pommy practice (as is the "parade of leaves" on the rear sight block)

Paul Pless
10-11-2009, 07:28 PM
Roy Wetherby used old Mausers when he first got started (cheap and plentyful)...perhaps it's one of those**** Phillip, everybody, Winchester and Remington included has built a mauser based rifle, many still do. I owned a very nice early 50's Mauser action .300 wby mag for a while. Very nice work. Not sure that Roy Weatherby ever built his magnum guns on used mauser actions. I could be wrong but don't think so.

Phillip Allen
10-11-2009, 08:10 PM
**** Phillip, everybody, Winchester and Remington included has built a mauser based rifle, many still do. I owned a very nice early 50's Mauser action .300 wby mag for a while. Very nice work. Not sure that Roy Weatherby ever built his magnum guns on used mauser actions. I could be wrong but don't think so.

didn't say anything about used...didn't say here was anything wong with it..the old mauser action. It is much better than the nine lug weatherby fer gosh sakes...!

paladin
10-11-2009, 08:39 PM
I think I still have 2 or 3 like new old large ring mexican mauser actions that were part of a half dozen that I bought from the NRA for $25 each or some such....most of the really good old time gunsmiths are gone, the guys that could do a good custom rifle. I also have the stock blanks that I had made of first class walnut at Fajen Gun works, before they went commercial jobs only.

coelacanth2
10-11-2009, 09:28 PM
Paladin - I just hopped onto the Leatherwood website, interesting scope and concept. They do not list prices, though - do you have any idea re. cost factors on one of the rangefinder scopes. Thank you!

coelacanth2
10-13-2009, 09:37 PM
I'll pick it up Friday, on my way up to Canada. I've been feeling masochistic lately...:D. SEANZ - not getting any younger, just dummerer. I still pass for late 30's, though that was loooong ago.

seanz
10-14-2009, 05:12 AM
This is gunna hurt but I'm doing it anyway?


Hmmm.....sounds familiar. Any relatives in the Southern Hemisphere?
:)

Paul Pless
10-14-2009, 05:51 AM
This is gunna hurt but I'm doing it anyway?By reputation, the big Accumarks come with pretty good brakes. Loud but effective.

Phillip Allen
10-14-2009, 06:15 AM
serious case of scope-eye comin up...

Paul Pless
10-14-2009, 06:26 AM
serious case of scope-eye comin up...That would be... unfortunate.:eek:

Phillip Allen
10-14-2009, 06:29 AM
If I just HAD to have a scope on one, it'd likely be a pistol scope :)

Paul Pless
10-14-2009, 06:37 AM
That rifle pretty much demands a scope Phillip.

Phillip Allen
10-14-2009, 06:38 AM
why?

Paul Pless
10-14-2009, 06:39 AM
First of all, the composite Accumarks don't come with sights. :p

Phillip Allen
10-14-2009, 06:40 AM
it ain't magic...they don't come with scopes either

coelacanth2
10-22-2009, 09:43 AM
Picked it up Wednesday pm on the way back from Quebec. Scope on it will have to go, only about 1,5" eye relief and that is just the ticket for a bit of impromptu amateur plastic surgery. Box of 250 gr Partitions was 121 $us! Wheee! Haveta get back into reloading, I guess.

paladin
10-22-2009, 04:25 PM
coelacanth2 coelacanth2 is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: sussex county delaware
Posts: 854
Default Re: A chance at a 338-378 Weatherby
Paladin - I just hopped onto the Leatherwood website, interesting scope and concept. They do not list prices, though - do you have any idea re. cost factors on one of the rangefinder scopes. Thank you!
About $450 less base for the ART1000, another hundred or so for the base, then the flip up caps to replace the cheap plastic ones they throw in. About$650-700 if you buy everything at a good discount house.

switters
10-22-2009, 04:39 PM
I spent Sunday sighting in a .300 WSM remington 700. I am not immune to recoil as my right shoulder and left eyebrow will attest.

best of luck with that .338. I've shot one before, belongs to my father, and he is sticking with his 7mm mag. None of us boys want the .338.

coelacanth2
10-23-2009, 07:59 AM
Paladin - hopped on the Hinternet yestidday whilst lounging in durance vile here and looked for reviews and opinions of the Leatherwood scopes. Some of the posters claimed to have experience dating back to Vietnam. Many claimed quality control problems even then, although the consensus of opinion was that when the scopes worked, they were very good. Scopes of manufacture more recent than the early to middle '70s were roundly condemned, with the recent Chinese made items coming in for most criticism. An alternative noted was the Shepherd scope. Have you any other info? I'm considering one of The Leupolds or Nikons.

Phillip Allen
10-23-2009, 08:03 AM
tell me again what you're planning on hunting with this cannon?

Bob Smalser
10-23-2009, 08:19 AM
Are there Polar or Kodiak bears in your future?


.

200gr bullet 3350 3102 2868 2646 2434fps +1.1 -5.3 -15.6 -31.7

225gr bullet 3180 2874 2778 2591 2410 2238fps +1.3 -5.7 -16.6 -33.5

250gr bullet 3060 2856 2662 2478 2297 2125fps +1.4 -6.3 -18.3 -36.9


If the winds aren't severe, it isn't especially difficult to hit a 12" circle at 1000yds with killing force 9 times out of 10 tries using a 190gr bullet at 2500 fps out of the muzzle.

Of course the drops look impressive at those speeds. But this monster would have to have a barrel two inches+ in diameter to throw heavy bullets at these speeds with any accuracy beyond 200yds. Not to mention 50 ft-lbs+ of recoil impacting recovery for a second shot and how short throat life is on hotties. You really expect to shoot long range from prone with this at.... what.....8-9lbs? Careful or you'll break your collar bone. My lightest across-the-course guns designed to shoot a full hundred rounds of 7.62 in a day weigh 13lbs.

Consider treating it as a stand-up, 200yd dangerous game rifle using a short, low-power, high eye relief scope with lots of light-gathering and quality to match the gun. Zeiss, Swarovsky or the like. Or a 100-yarder with folding leaves or a ghost ring and no scope at all.

paladin
10-23-2009, 09:26 AM
There didn't seem to be many problems with the scopes built under military contract.....just the "civilian" grade ones and then was more along the lines of rushing to produce them, QA sufferred while they tried to go commercial. With the chinee made ones the problems did not seem to be the optics. I have one of the U.S. produced items...but the Chinese rushed it into production by purchasing a rifle off the shelf and measuring it for the mounts.....big mistake. The rifle they used was not current production but a discontinued item, and the mounts did not fit. The windage adjustment is built into the base of the mount, and to use it on my rifle I had to purchase a Picatenny mount and then send it to Tulsa Ok to a very good gunsmith to match it to the rifle. The last time I fired it was at Quantico, mounted on my 7mm Reminton magnum...and it placed the shots precisely where I thought they should go.....the problem came about when I switched to the .257 Roberts. There was enough difference in the two rifles, although from the same manufacturer, that the mount would not properly align.......I purchased another mount and had it fitted to the rifle. It was used mostly on coyote and groundhogs. I would aim, rotate the ring two between the main body and chest of the coyote and the round would be dead on. Using the offset post and the crosshairs (half the width) across the shoulders of the groundhog it worked as well. The sighting is based on anatomy...a human male can be five feet four or six foot three tall, but he will be thirty inches from crotch to throat....set the cross hairs on the crotch, then zero the upper ringe mark on his throat, and then place the cross hairs for bullet impact.
For general hunting I would go with Col Smalsers recommendations, I like the Swarovsky though.
I would add....that I always use the heaviest bullet available, then never change. I have several boxes of ammo with half missing.....and each box is marked where the others impacted on test firing. I keep a brass cleaner sealed in a plastic pouch with each box, and always wipe down the ammo before use. Each box, after zeroing in, has additional info. After the barrel cools down, I fire a round to see where the bullet impacts from a cold barrel, then the second, and third........comes in handy when chasing wolverines and other dangerous critters.

Phillip Allen
10-23-2009, 09:31 AM
Are there Polar or Kodiak bears in your future?



If the winds aren't severe, it isn't especially difficult to hit a 12" circle at 1000yds with killing force 9 times out of 10 tries using a 190gr bullet at 2500 fps out of the muzzle.

Of course the drops look impressive at those speeds. But this monster would have to have a barrel two inches in diameter to throw heavy bullets at these speeds with any accuracy beyond 200-300yds. Not to mention 50 ft-lbs+ of recoil impacting recovery for a second shot and how short throat life is on hotties. You really expect to shoot long range from prone with this at.... what.....8-9lbs? Careful or you'll break your collar bone.

Consider treating it as a dangerous game rifle using a short, low-power, high eye relief scope with lots of light-gathering and quality to match the gun. Zeiss, Swarovsky or the like. Or a 100-yarder with folding leaves or a ghost ring and no scope at all.

thanks bob...I try to tell em that and they don't want to listen...

BrianW
10-23-2009, 11:24 AM
But this monster would have to have a barrel two inches+ in diameter to throw heavy bullets at these speeds with any accuracy beyond 200yds.

Come on now...


Consider treating it as a stand-up, 200yd dangerous game rifle using a short, low-power, high eye relief scope with lots of light-gathering and quality to match the gun. Zeiss, Swarovsky or the like. Or a 100-yarder with folding leaves or a ghost ring and no scope at all.

Suggesting a 338-378 not be used over 200 yards, but rather as a short range dgr is ridiculous.

Someone needs to get off the range, and into the field.

Bob Smalser
10-23-2009, 11:47 AM
.... ridiculous.
....Someone needs to get off the range, and into the field.



Ridiculous?

Like the farmer and chemical fertilizer, More is Better is ridiculous.

An aviator counseling an infantry sniper he needs more field time using a rifle is even more so. ;)

I didn't say a 200yd rifle won't hit adequately at 300. What I said was that at those weights and speeds, the rifle is unlikely mechanically to shoot into much better than a 6-8" circle at 300 and at 52 ft lbs of recoil for the lightest factory load, the guy behind it to hold into much better than a 12" circle at that range. Those are marginal numbers for clean kills at 300....so why build a 600yd rifle out of it? That would be....well,....ridiculous....especially when a 2.5-3.5 power fixed scope will work as well on big-game targets at 300 as it does at 200.

But yes....I have a day or two both on the range and in the shop building them and loading for them, too. But only in 5.56, and 7.62 thru 30-338 Wildcat.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/204401819.jpg

BrianW
10-23-2009, 12:32 PM
Ridiculous?

I didn't say a 200yd rifle won't hit adequately at 300.

What you said (and what I quoted) is it will need a two inch barrel for long shots, and the 338-378 should be considered a 200 yard DGR.

That is ridiculous.

I'm sorry it took a brown shoe to say that. ;)

BrianW
10-23-2009, 12:35 PM
thanks bob...I try to tell em that and they don't want to listen...

Us youngin's can be ornery too. :D

Bob Smalser
10-23-2009, 05:20 PM
What you said (and what I quoted) is it will need a two inch barrel for long shots, and the 338-378 should be considered a 200 yard DGR.



You really gonna make me to explain this to an old hand who probably knows this backwards and forwards? OK.

The principle reason these hot cartridges aren't as accurate as their more moderate cousins isn't because the rifle is poorly made. It's because of barrel whip. That the barrel and action are bedded and freefloated so they return perfectly to the same index is only part of it.

The greater the load fired from a barrel, the faster it heats and cools, with the heat beginning at the throat and extending outward and vice versa for cooling. This uneven heating and cooling from throat to crown changes the point of impact from shot to shot until the barrel is uniformly warm. (A state it never reaches, only approaches.)

The hotter the load, the more uneven the heating, the greater the shot spread from shot to shot, and the greater variance at the warm-barrel end state. This effect is ameliorated by adding more steel to the barrel, and is mainly why target rifle barrels are an inch to an inch and a quarter in diameter as opposed to a thinner, more tapered hunting rifle barrel designed with compromises for easier handling and carrying.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17862189/279174068.jpg

Both are National Match grade M14 heavy target barrels. One was engineered to shoot 200-600 yards with 173gr bullets using standard loads, the other a thousand yards with 190gr bullets in hot loads. There's no doubt which is which.

The Weatherby is a hunting rifle. In theory, hunters make one-shot kills and only need to know their cold-barrel zero. In practice, it isn't that simple. Besides other individual barrel harmonics more complicated than simple heating and cooling, no hunter I've ever seen allows time for barrel cooling between shots during sighting-in, confidence is adversely affected by big groups, and confidence is a necessary component of a long-range, cold-barrel shot.

If y'all want optimum long-range performance, then learn to tailor loads to your individual rifle and shoot enough to have full confidence in your cold-barrel zero. Easier said than done.

Here's how to tailor loads to your individual barrel harmonics. It was written for 5.56 in a Ruger No 1, but applies to most except your cartridges have to fit in the magazine. Just insure you use proven Weatherby loading data as a starting point and watch pressure signs, as some of these large case-powder combination the pressure increases with less powder instead of decreases.


Working up 5.56 Loads to Individual Rifles


.....I like RCBS sizing dies and Forster Bonanza BR seating dies.

Clean primer pockets w/Forster Lathe-type scraping tool.

Trim cases to uniform length, whether they need it or not. Case length not critical, just take a minimum amt off to get them uniform. Forget about neck turning until you get to the 1000yd line.

Set resizing die beginning at tallest setting by turning down in tiny increments until the case just fits the chamber - as tight as possible and still functions reliably.

Set seating die to insert bullets as tall as possible - just touching the rifling - but not so far that ejecting ctg causes the bullet to be pulled. No magazine to fuss with in a Ruger #1.

Make a primerless/powderless dummy - mark w/fingernail polish - and keep it with dies as your length reference to be checked w/calipers. Don't fall in love with it - you may have to redo it after your powder test if it's set too long.

Reprime w/ CCI BR-4 or any small rifle primer. I like match primers. Just keep them consistent by not changing brands/types.

Ruger should be 1-in-10. But double check with a clng rod with tight brush - with the rifle in a vise, push the rod thru the bore and measure how many inches it takes to make a complete revolution - I clamp a yardstick to the vise jaws parallel to the bbl and mark it w/ a Sharpie.

That twist likes 55-70gr bullets. But 1-in-7 is best for the heavier ones. Boat tails are by far the best choice. I liked 69gr Sierra HPBT Match - and whether it's a soft point/superexpando or not doesn't mean much with this ctg on critters.

Assuming 69 gr bullets and Lake City Cases, make a dozen or so test ctgs beginning w/22.0 gr W748 in .2 gr increments = 22.0, 22.2, 22.4 etc - all the way to max of 26.0 if you want to. Label them w/Sharpie. But watch pressure signs as you fire them. 26.0 gr is a popular match load in M16's that should print inside 1" at 100 @near-2800fps. Remember your #1 bbl is longer, so you should get more velocity w/less powder.

Swab oil from bore w/Hoppes followed by a dry patch - never shoot a bore/chamber w/oil in it.

Shoot them at 100yds, marking and plotting/labeling each hit w/spotting scope and scorebook - or go downrange each time if you have to. They will be strung vertically on the target, but you will also get 3 or 4 out of the 12 you fired in one ragged hole - the powder weight in the center of that hole is YOUR load. That's the one your bbl shoots best. Forget about velocity.

Examine closely each case as it is ejected for flattened/blown-by primers, case stretching, and any bright ring near the case head (headspace excessive). The primers should gradually flatten until they practically melt into the case head with the hottest loads - but I don't recommend going that high - no need to and hot loads aren't as accurate.

Double check how your load resizes and seats/fires once more to make sure you are not too tight or too long.

Good shooting. If the 69's don't print as well as you like try the Sierra 52gr HPBT Match and work up the load again. The 1-in-10 is a compromise twist and yours may like the lighter bullets better.

coelacanth2
10-23-2009, 11:12 PM
Thanks , Gents - I'll keep this in mind. I expect I'll have to get back into reloading, if only for the expense factor - a box of 20 250 gr. was 121.95. With that much kick, I expect it will do occasional paper punching followed by some hunting where the other cannon is less appropriate. Yes, I do dream of a place where a long shot at large game is possible - Africa. Would like to try again for elk out West, also. As far as kick goes - I think I saw the stats on some of the premium goose loads 1.5 oz of tungsten/iron at well over 1500fps, generating a respectable reaction. I usually take that well.

Bob Smalser
10-23-2009, 11:44 PM
Thanks , Gents...

Anyhoo you got it for a good price. Now is a good time to look for those fire sales.

I just missed a Weatherby I wanted that also went for a good price, just slightly more than I was prepared for.

http://www.auctionarms.com/Search/DisplayItem.cfm?ItemNum=9354813.0

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/4529174310/cecil%2020%206.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg

coelacanth2
10-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Very pretty, sorry you lost out on it, Bob. My particular favorite is a little Ugartechea 12 gauge with lengthened forcing cones and choked loose skeet 1 and loose improved cylinder. Had the stock shortened and bent to fit and it was magic on ducks and geese within 35 to 40 yds. Got me my only "Scotch double" on teal, too. After a few seasons in Delaware's humidity, the stock unbent itself and I don't shoot it nearly as well now. Time to have a try at a rebend, I think. If you can find one, they represent a very decent value and tend to be reliable. Mine is quite plain, but some can be had with some rather decent cut engraving. Oh, yes, re the Weatherby, I am also thinking Alaska for big bear, but the 45-70 might be a bit better for up close.

BrianW
10-24-2009, 08:37 PM
Oh, yes, re the Weatherby, I am also thinking Alaska for big bear, but the 45-70 might be a bit better for up close.

But not so good for up far. ;)

flame proof undies on

Bob Smalser
10-24-2009, 08:46 PM
.... sorry you lost out on it, Bob.

It's OK. I buy, repair, upgrade and sell off regularly as a rainy day activity. In the last two weeks I picked up these two circa 1915 Marlin 20 gauges to restore for the grandkids. I'm paying $80 to 200 bucks for these. I've restored and sold off a half dozen Marlin pumps in the last few years.

The advantage of the old small-bores is back then they never tried to imitate the performance of a 12 gauge, and are built like light .22's at a true 5 to 5 1/2 pounds. They are sweet handling little bird and rabbit guns. Fully gunsmithed they still handle light loads nicely.

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/1173112240/b7d78e699f742f71cc0f4c4d03841568.jpg?aa=2009102418 3904
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/142870000/142870689/pix732943875.jpg

Phillip Allen
10-24-2009, 09:25 PM
But not so good for up far. ;)

flame proof undies on

it'll work just fine if you can get the bullet to fall on them...bears can't deal with plunging fire

Phillip Allen
10-24-2009, 09:30 PM
In fact, Brian, if I come up there and walk around with you in the willeys while YOU hunt something, I'll carry my 45-70 as a personal safety belt...if you screw up the shot on a bear, I"ll belt you across the knees with it so I can outrun you

BrianW
10-24-2009, 10:12 PM
Sounds like a great time. :)

Nothing wrong with a 45-70, just shoot the bear, and save my knees.

BrianW
10-24-2009, 10:13 PM
Nice looking work Bob.

I take it that the restoration job doesn't lower the value of the shotguns?

Bob Smalser
10-24-2009, 10:53 PM
Nice looking work Bob.

I take it that the restoration job doesn't lower the value of the shotguns?

Depends on what's wrong, whether the gun's finish has any inherent value and and how professional the work is. Most just need a thorough deep cleaning, but dent/bulge removal, extractors and ejectors, new reproduction buttplates, cracked and chipped wood and bead replacement are common repairs. It's surprising how many are sold cheap because they are malfunctioning, and your pleasant surprise is the only reason they are malfunctioning is a century of crud buildup from evaporated oil and grease.

Moreover, these antique repeaters had safety devices unknown in modern guns because of the inferior ammunition back then. They had recoil locks of various invention, where after the trigger is pulled, the action won't open unless the round fired, preventing a hangfire from exploding outside the chamber. These recoil locks need to be relatively clean for the gun to function well, and most of these oldies can have insect nests in them, let alone any internal cleanliness.

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/7089185949/hpim6029.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg?aa=20091024205105
There's a good reason shotgun barrel steel was left untempered. Accordingly, this was also a relatively easy repair on a Marlin 12 gauge I finished a couple weeks ago.

But we're the only country on the planet who values original varnish and blue finishes on working guns. In Europe, fine shotguns are refinished as a matter of routine.

Rarely do I have a valuable collector gun I have to be overly careful with. Mostly these are plain-Jane users that will survive decades longer than they would otherwise if in addition to mechanical repairs, the wood and steel are protected with some topcoats of compatible finish. Done carefully with a little artificial aging, it can be difficult to tell any difference.

Bob Smalser
10-25-2009, 12:12 AM
This 20 gauge hammer side-by-side in need of a hug will be a nice winter's project if I can get it in the 200-250 dollar range. Provincial Frenchies are under-rated guns, and RST loads short, low-pressure loads for damascus.

The biggie on these is if the (easily broken) hammers match or not. These do. But it also has a broken toe, black rust stains, a loose joint, checkering worn to disappearance, a light coat of rust, and paint splatters.....all of which require repair for the gun to have any value.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/seahawktrading/gb%2010-21/IMGP0102.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/seahawktrading/gb%2010-21/IMGP0081.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/seahawktrading/gb%2010-21/IMGP0093.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/seahawktrading/gb%2010-21/IMGP0103.jpg

St. Etienne was a gunmaking center more akin to Birmingham than London. The "makers" didn't make them, merely assembled them from completed parts made by guild members, often including final regulation and fitting. Accordingly, they are called "Guild Guns", and where Birmingham's have a maker's name like Joseph Bentley, Thomas Bland, A Brown & Sons, etc when 3/4ths of the gun was made by a larger local factory like Westley Richards with 1/4 made by local one-man shops, the Frenchies are merely marked "St Etienne".

paladin
10-25-2009, 05:53 AM
I have a pair of flintlock dueling pistols made in St. Etienne....very nice work.....65 caliber. Miguelito style locks.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-25-2009, 07:24 AM
I am enjoying this thread. My thanks to all who have contributed.

Bob Smalser
10-25-2009, 12:06 PM
Here's that old Marlin 12 gauge shown above with the bulged barrel, restored and reconfigured for its current best use.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2080858/376681418.jpg

Probably more appropriate for the Agincourt cross vs longbow discussion than here, besides having recoil locks modern shotguns lack, these circa 1913 guns also lacked the trigger disconnects present on all modern pumpguns, making them "slam-fire" guns. That means if you hold the trigger back after firing, this oldie will fire every time the bolt goes into battery until it is empty (generally 1 beanbag round backed up by 5 buckshot).

Not only will they fire faster than a modern semi-auto shotgun where the trigger must be pulled for each shot, they also put more lead down range quicker than any modern submachine gun or M4 Carbine set on full auto. Almost half again as quick, and without the tendency for the muzzle to rise inherent in full auto weapons. The only advantage the M4 has is quicker reloading.

I used to prefer our old Model 12 trench and riot guns for point duty during night patrols, and from experience I can say they can be emptied by a wide-eyed and motivated youngster in one continuous roar of nine, 32-caliber soft lead balls in each of 6 shots, with scythe-like effect. So it's gratifying to still see them in use by soldiers in marines in Iraq and Afghanistan. And something today's assault rifle yahoos should think about.

Captain Blight
10-25-2009, 12:41 PM
It's OK. I buy, repair, upgrade and sell off regularly as a rainy day activity. In the last two weeks I picked up these two circa 1915 Marlin 20 gauges to restore for the grandkids. I'm paying $80 to 200 bucks for these. I've restored and sold off a half dozen Marlin pumps in the last few years.

The advantage of the old small-bores is back then they never tried to imitate the performance of a 12 gauge, and are built like light .22's at a true 5 to 5 1/2 pounds. They are sweet handling little bird and rabbit guns. Fully gunsmithed they still handle light loads nicely.

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/1173112240/b7d78e699f742f71cc0f4c4d03841568.jpg?aa=2009102418 3904
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/142870000/142870689/pix732943875.jpg

I'm a big fan of the 20 ga. myownself. My favorite pheasant gun is an SKB O/U in 20, 3" chambers. With the Remington field loads, I can put an ounce of shot in the air at like 1350 FPS, which if I can just hit 'em square, on the rise, does the job very neatly.


I always wondered why they kept issuing that stovepipe piece of uselessness, the M3 Grease Gun. Seems to that a much better weapon for armored crews would be a magazine-fed 12-gauge sawedoff pump.


Bob, if you ever come across a Darne in 20 gauge in reasonable shooting shape, pray remember me.

paladin
10-25-2009, 01:21 PM
Mr. Smalser....I had my old Winchester Model '97 completely "remanufactured" for just that reason.....I used it as a deck sweeper when sailing way down south...never had to use it...but did in fact find that particular function useful after I modified an 1100 Remington for continuous fire....dawgonne thing was 1/4 the speed of a grease gun. Got rid of the thing outside the country, never had the Winchester "repaired"....

Bob Smalser
10-25-2009, 01:55 PM
Bob, if you ever come across a Darne in 20 gauge in reasonable shooting shape, pray remember me.

They were 600 bucks and up 20 years ago, and are out of reach today.

The good news is that unlike the one posted above, most older French guns have the swamped ribs that make Darne such great handling guns. Look for a St Etienne hammerless guild gun in 16 gauge for the best value. $300 and up. Gun for gun the equal of Birmingham at half the price or less. While 12's were common in the UK, the Continent had laws restricting calibers to below military calibers, and 16's are very common. Older 20's are harder to find everywhere.


... deck sweeper....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/CAPTJPershing.jpg/150px-CAPTJPershing.jpg

John J. Pershing of WW I fame is generally credited with popularizing combat shotguns in the Army and Marines based on his experiences as a Captain in the PI from 1899-1903.

I've joked with more than one AR lover that in a night fight, old Blackjack with his M97 or Marlin M98 would have kicked their ass in 1899, and would still kick their ass today.

Coincidentally, here's a circa 1906 Marlin Model 17 that belonged to the Philippine Constabulary and was likely used in the insurrection.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144402398

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/144402000/144402398/pix942544125.jpg

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/144402000/144402398/pix942544343.jpg

Phillip Allen
10-25-2009, 01:56 PM
Mr. Smalser...since you're here I have a question or two

I have decided to set the velocity of my 45-70 loads thusly:
I take an unsized shell (fire formed) that fits my chamber and, through experiment, find out how much black powder (1 1/2 Fg Swiss) it takes to finger seat a bullet on it to a measured depth (well settled) and record the weight of the charge. I then used this charge weight regardless of whether the case is re-sized or not and add a 0.060 hard wad between the powder and bullet. the bullet just touches the lands...(a slightly compressed load)

what ever the velocity ends up being, I try to get as close to that with smokeless powder loads as I can.

It is interesting to me that, in 10 shot strings, the standard deviation in velocity ends up at about 6fps...(with black powder)

so far it is hard to get a (book-approved) smokeless load that slow...SD for smokeless is nearer 30-60fps no matter how carefully I weigh the powder and bullets

what think you?

BrianW
10-25-2009, 04:25 PM
I'll wait for Bob. ;)

coelacanth2
10-25-2009, 04:30 PM
I've also a question for Mr Smalser. I know a couple of ways to rid a barrel of dents (although I would love to hear your preferred method - and anyone else who wants to chime in) but how do you re-form a bulge like that? I'd be worried that the metal of the barrel, having passed it's yield point once, would have a permanent weak spot and be prone to "unpleasant surprises" at inopportune times.

Phillip Allen
10-25-2009, 04:35 PM
I'll wait for Bob. ;)

no need to be shy Brian

BrianW
10-25-2009, 04:50 PM
It's just that when you posted the fps variations before, I didn't realize you were trying to match black powder speeds. Now I understand the problem better.

Of the smokeless powders you've tried, did any come close to filling the case?

Phillip Allen
10-25-2009, 05:01 PM
It's just that when you posted the fps variations before, I didn't realize you were trying to match black powder speeds. Now I understand the problem better.

Of the smokeless powders you've tried, did any come close to filling the case?

I chose the bulkiest powders I could find listed...but no, they did not fill the case

Bob Smalser
10-25-2009, 05:31 PM
.....what think you?



I think black powder and cast bullets that can strip when worked up to smokeless speeds are something I have zero experience with.


... but how do you re-form a bulge like that? I'd be worried that the metal of the barrel, having passed it's yield point once, would have a permanent weak spot and be prone to "unpleasant surprises" at inopportune times.

You turn a tapered mandrel to fit tightly in the bore at the location of the dent or bulge, centerdrill one end and braze on a handle made from drill rod. Then you oil it and either drive it in or use it as an anvil to pound down a bulge. Then the bore is honed and polished and the outside drawfiled and polished.

How difficult that is or whether you end up work hardening the barrel steel at that location sufficiently that it requires annealing depends on how soft the steel is to begin with. But you can tell just from looking at that bulge that the barrel steel on these is very, very soft. Softer than the fluid nickle steel Winchester used, softer than hammer-welded twist or damascus, and much softer than today's steels engineered for much heavier loads.

But cutting the barrel off both shortened the duration of the pressure moment and lessened the chance of an upset wad...a weak spot near the end of the barrel isn't the issue one near the forcing cone would be.

If you need dents/bulges removed, here's the guy I send difficult ones to who has all the fancy English hydraulic tools who does it for a living, does it very well, and is very reasonable to boot.

http://members.toast.net/keithkearcher/

Phillip Allen
10-25-2009, 05:36 PM
"I think black powder and cast bullets that can strip when worked up to smokeless speeds are something I have zero experience with."

okay...don't stick your neck out... :)

purri
10-25-2009, 05:55 PM
Re BP and NFB loads in general. Get a copy of Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" (vol 3 now out).

coelacanth2
10-25-2009, 07:45 PM
I kind of enjoyed John Taylor's ,"African Rifles and Cartridges" - very nonPC but informative.

bobbys
10-25-2009, 08:03 PM
Depends on what's wrong, whether the gun's finish has any inherent value and and how professional the work is. Most just need a thorough deep cleaning, but dent/bulge removal, extractors and ejectors, new reproduction buttplates, cracked and chipped wood and bead replacement are common repairs. It's surprising how many are sold cheap because they are malfunctioning, and your pleasant surprise is the only reason they are malfunctioning is a century of crud buildup from evaporated oil and grease.

Moreover, these antique repeaters had safety devices unknown in modern guns because of the inferior ammunition back then. They had recoil locks of various invention, where after the trigger is pulled, the action won't open unless the round fired, preventing a hangfire from exploding outside the chamber. These recoil locks need to be relatively clean for the gun to function well, and most of these oldies can have insect nests in them, let alone any internal cleanliness.

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/7089185949/hpim6029.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg?aa=20091024205105
There's a good reason shotgun barrel steel was left untempered. Accordingly, this was also a relatively easy repair on a Marlin 12 gauge I finished a couple weeks ago.

But we're the only country on the planet who values original varnish and blue finishes on working guns. In Europe, fine shotguns are refinished as a matter of routine.

Rarely do I have a valuable collector gun I have to be overly careful with. Mostly these are plain-Jane users that will survive decades longer than they would otherwise if in addition to mechanical repairs, the wood and steel are protected with some topcoats of compatible finish. Done carefully with a little artificial aging, it can be difficult to tell any difference..

I went to a flea market and bought 2 of these for 10 bucks, There "Benjamin Franklin" BB pistols, Gave them to my son, They dont work but hes good at hunting down parts.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/08/benjamin-front-pump-pistol-part-1.html

BrianW
10-26-2009, 12:08 AM
I kind of enjoyed John Taylor's ,"African Rifles and Cartridges" - very nonPC but informative.

Ah, Pondoro. I should read that one. I have read Craig Boddingtons version of Safari Rifles.

BrianW
10-26-2009, 12:10 AM
.

I went to a flea market and bought 2 of these for 10 bucks, There "Benjamin Franklin" BB pistols, Gave them to my son, They dont work but hes good at hunting down parts.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/08/benjamin-front-pump-pistol-part-1.html

Those look like a lot of fun!

Let us know how it works out.

I picked up another used Leupold 6x42mm scope today. That makes 2 that will be sitting around waiting for a rifle. ;)

purri
10-26-2009, 02:45 AM
Pondoro's good apart from which he pays out on the Pommy colonial bur(r)os.

BTW picked up a 1950's Nickel 6 x 42 last year ($150 all up after the refurb)

coelacanth2
10-31-2009, 09:36 PM
A modest update...Swarovski Z5 scope on order, as of this afternoon. The rifle presently has a Simmons ATV on it, something last made in the late '90s, when Simmons tried to go upscale. Low power eye relief is ok at about 3.5" but at 14 power it is rather less. Specs for the Swarovski claim 3.75" regardless of magnification. Per another direction this thread had taken, cast lead will strip at much past 2000 fps (IIRC). Thus the hexagonal bore Creedmore rifle - no stripping there. Antimony at percentages up to 3% will harden it nicely, but can render it brittle. try copper in about the same percentage
OR, as Garrett is reputed to do, silver - that supposedly hardens and toughens the lead, without embrittlement. Also, given the full moon and Oct 31st - ish date, may have some affect on your werewolf problem. You can heat harden by reheating almost to melting and slowly cooling. this allows for crystal growth in gold, copper, silver , and platinum alloys I'm used to dealing with, and results in a harder casting, albeit at the greater risk of cracks in small diameter bits, as the crystals grow too large and propagation becomes an issue. In a rather massive, blocky shape like a 45-70 bullet, that is NOT going to be an issue:D. Do keep us posted?

Phillip Allen
11-01-2009, 12:06 AM
heating and quenching is the ticket for me...as instructed by RCBS and the 1964 NRA reloading manual and others

coelacanth2
11-01-2009, 10:04 AM
Pure lead or alloy? What heat/quench cycle are you using? Inquiring minds want to know!

Paul Pless
11-01-2009, 10:10 AM
A modest update...SwarovskiGood move temporarily... when your wife sees the credit card bill she'll think that you've bought her an amazing peice of crystal for Christmas. She'd not have misassumed if you'd gone with a Zeiss or Khales.:D

coelacanth2
11-01-2009, 11:09 AM
No worries, mate - the diamond necklace for my return from Canada/moose hunting over her birthday was well received and the matching earrings will be in the stocking this Christmas. 'Sides which, she LOOOOVES me so...

Phillip Allen
11-01-2009, 12:06 PM
Pure lead or alloy? What heat/quench cycle are you using? Inquiring minds want to know!

wheel weights blended in 100 pound batches for the sake of consistancy

pure lead won't harden...must have antimony in it...I think at least 3%?

coelacanth2
11-01-2009, 12:44 PM
Might be fun to cast a few with 3% silver or copper. I'd recommend perhaps 2lbs lead for this as the silver for 100lbs might get a tad spendy.

Phillip Allen
11-01-2009, 12:54 PM
Might be fun to cast a few with 3% silver or copper. I'd recommend perhaps 2lbs lead for this as the silver for 100lbs might get a tad spendy.

I used to love such experiments...now I have to think about what I would do if I discovered that the silver you mentioned above made , say, a small measurable improvment in accuracy and no improvement in terminal balistics...so now there is a small push to continue with the new metal...to what end? I shoot holes in paper...I have managed to get at least one 10 shot group to print a 1" group (center to center) at 100yds using 20-1 pure lead and tin...no silver...that was with iron sights (soul sights and globe front)

all I want to do is hit a 55 pound chunck of 3/8" steel at 500m...the target is about 2 minutes of angle in size...other things are way ahead in the protocal of importance...beginning with the human element...me

in the case of my wheel weights...that is plinking stuff

coelacanth2
11-01-2009, 04:42 PM
Just throwing temptation into your path.I have substantial investments in precious metals and mining.

paladin
11-01-2009, 08:13 PM
Sweet Thing saw the Swarovski packaging label on a box and assumed the same thing....I overheard her tell some friends that I had something nice for her as a present but she hadn't seen it yet. I couldn't figure it out until I was getting ready to dispose of the packaging........it took several hours to find something appropriate.....before I really got caught.

purri
11-01-2009, 08:25 PM
Just throwing temptation into your path.I have substantial investments in precious metals and mining.

You're hitched up, right? :p

Paul Pless
11-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I was thinking that a smart maxillofacial prosthodontist would've ordered a Zeiss and have it charged against his clinic as a precise optical instrument.:D

coelacanth2
11-01-2009, 10:31 PM
Paul, that is a bit too aggressive, even for MY accountant :D. Was tempting, tho. I mostly write off the tractor, since it mows the office lawn, and clears the street and sidewalk and parkinglot, since the city does a rather sketchy job of it.

coelacanth2
11-12-2009, 12:03 AM
Okay, the Swarovski was on back order, it just came in today. Z5, 3.5 - 18 x 44 mm. Drop compensating reticle, Swarovski has a website calculator with most major rounds in it to give the numbers for your particular rifle. Too bad the weather is gonna suck this weekend - I wanted to go out and play...

BrianW
11-12-2009, 03:22 AM
Okay, the Swarovski was on back order, it just came in today. Z5, 3.5 - 18 x 44 mm.

A dangerous game scope for sure. ;)

Phillip Allen
11-12-2009, 04:03 AM
gad...

purri
11-12-2009, 05:52 AM
Once you get over about 10X then in warmer weather "boil" sets in. (atmospheric abberation)

coelacanth2
11-12-2009, 07:14 AM
Just playing with it, 3.5 is not too bad - substantial field of view. Don't have to worry about "warmer weather" boil. Even here, in the beginning of the South, most of our seasons are fairly cool. Rifle like this not legal in-state for big game anyway. Groundhog practice only :eek:. Probably won't have to worry about burial.

coelacanth2
11-15-2009, 07:52 PM
Just back from the range. Recoil stout but bearable . Spent 125.00 together it on 3" high at100 yds.

Paul Pless
11-15-2009, 08:28 PM
Just back from the range. Recoil stout but bearable . Spent 125.00 together it on 3" high at100 yds.What're your three shot groups looking like? And, how's your first shots out of a clean cold barrel look compared to to sight in? What are you using for hearing protection?

coelacanth2
11-15-2009, 11:13 PM
Took most of a box to get it on. Muzzle brake prohibited use of a bore - sized arbor for bore sight. Fellow who owns the range has bore sighted 3 other firearms for me, all were on paper at 25 and 50 yds, 2 were within 2" of the bull. this was dropping them in 10" low at 25 - a bit low at 25 is normal for something with an almost 300 yd. zero, but ...wow. Got it reasonable at 50, took it to 100 with 2 rounds left and 5:00 pm twilight (Swarovski does make a NICE 'scope) put 1 round 10 low and 5 left, pinnned it down and moved the crosshairs to the hole, last shot off the bench, no rest 1 right and 3 high. When I was trying to get it on paper I was getting 3 shot groups you could cover with a nickel, barrel gets VERY warm after third shot. $5.25 every time I pull the trigger. Now I know what they can get me for Christmas - RCBS press with the appropriate dies. Honestly, one of the guys I hunt with has a Remington that just devours 180 gr. loads - doesn't matter whose. It hates 150s, tolerates 165s, and with it's preferred load, kicks a bit. This seems similar. Or maybe I'm just insensitive. Enough people tell me I am, maybe they're right.

paladin
11-16-2009, 05:34 AM
Told ya so...Swarovski do make nice optics. If'n ya really wanna spend some bucks, have them make you a custom scope with 72mm optics, variable 4-12 power.....and then take a look at very late evening targets (then turn your pants cuffs up filled with red pepper, and poke 2-3 holes in the bottom fold, so that every step leaves a few grains of red pepper.....soooovineeers for dawgs noses when they try to track you.

coelacanth2
11-16-2009, 10:54 PM
Thanks for the red pepper technique. Latest around here is thermal imager that can track your boot prints 1/2 hour after you're gone - or more. Scope is 3.5 to 18, 44 mm objective. Ear protection is foam plugs and muffs. Was chatting with a patient today who has the same rig with a Leupold on it. He was up in Alaska to do some fishing (he keeps a boat there) and the plane that was supposed to take them caribou hunting broke a leg on landing. He said they amused themselves for a couple of days by shooting water jugs at 1 mile. The guy with the Barrett .50 apparently started it by showing off, he said he could reliably do it also after a few shots. He also indicated he found some non-Weatherby factory rounds for substantially less than Weatherby prices. I could use that.

Phillip Allen
11-17-2009, 08:12 AM
I heard about the pepper trick from my personal "old man" (think Pat McManus) back in the mid 60's...

paladin
11-17-2009, 08:14 AM
Wear mukluks....with a heavy felt sock or wool socks, reduces the thermal footprint tremendously.

Phillip Allen
11-17-2009, 08:21 AM
Wear mukluks....with a heavy felt sock or wool socks, reduces the thermal footprint tremendously.

one could just freeze his butt off by wearing very little...that'd reduce a lot of thermal tracks... :)

Paul Pless
11-17-2009, 08:46 AM
I heard about the pepper trick from my personal "old man" (think Pat McManus) back in the mid 60's...

http://ferdyonfilms.com/cool-hand-luke14.jpg

coelacanth2
11-18-2009, 11:56 PM
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/coelacanth2/th_IMG_0202-1.jpg (http://s282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/coelacanth2/?action=view&current=IMG_0202-1.flv)
This thing is upright on my computer and iPhone, seems to be upside down in Photobucket and I can't seem to flip it. Oh,well, it'll be ok for our Austral viewers.