Help with painting problems

[Longbow]

I started painting my my skiff this weekend using Petit easypoxy. Let me say up front that if there is a worse painter in the world than me, I have yet to meet him. To try and overcome my painting handicap, I prepped the hull as well as I could. I put the first coat on following the advice that Tom Hill gave in WB a couple of issues ago using a good brush and some penetrol. I also tried the roll and tip method, but didn't see any real advantage over just using a brush. After the first coat, I used a scotch-brite pad to remove the gloss and smooth out any bubbles or other imperfections and applied a second coat. The boat looks great as long as you look directly at it. If you look at the surface at an angle though it is very wavy and has an almost woodgrain look, this is a plywood boat, but the woodgrain look is not really what I'm after. So what am I doing wrong? Is it possible to get a good finish with a brush or do you have to spray? I am using a gloss paint, should I sand the first two coats and then use a flattening agent on the third coat to get a satin finish? Any advice is appreciated!

[Bob Cleek]

It sounds like you did a good job of laying down a nice gloss coat on a lousy surface. No amount of paint is going to cover raised grain on plywood. You need to prepare the surface so it is perfectly smooth. Then seal it and prime it and then apply your gloss coats. Getting a smooth surface can often be a problem with some plywoods, particularly the less expensive ones. The face laminates (as the rest) are peeled off the log with a knife. This peeling process creates cracks and stresses in the veneer. (These cracks are invisible initially, but often open up over time.) The veneer isn't a "slice" of the log, but a "ribbon" unwound from around the log. When the ambient moisture levels change, the grain will raise, but because it is a "ribbon" peeled off the log, you'll get patches of raised area because of the orientation of the grain. (Parallel to the rings themselves!) This is one of the main reasons that plywood boats are often sheathed in fibreglass or Dynel and epoxy. It's very hard to get a fair, stable surface otherwise.

[floatingkiwi]

What about a thin layer of fairing compound,( or epoxy and ballons), then get that smooth, then prime and sand that? Would that work OK, Bob?

[pipefitter]

Looks like wood grain but it's most likely brush texture.

First off, you used penetrol with Petit's easypoxy. Use their recommended solvent. It's a self leveling paint within reason and the proprietary thinner is designed with that attribute in mind and to aid it in doing so.

The roller is an important step. It puts the paint on quickly, adequately and uniformly and the brush is just to sweep out the roller texture and to even the coat of paint one step further and arrange the film to where it flows out right before the correct thinner flashes as it does so, essentially locking in the gloss. When it is warm out, you have not much more than one chance at corrections in a maximum window of about 30 seconds.

Check these how to clips out for a good idea of the technique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3UCEbGZmz0&feature=PlayList&p=1FB2E3F0A8BB85C3&index=1

Penetrol is for traditional alkyd paints. Brush texture is desirable with traditional alkyd paints. It helps make wood trim look more woody than spray does. You use brush strokes to separate the joinery so that it is apparent that the parts are indeed an assemblage of real wood. Is why a sash tool is shaped as it is and while serving an apprenticeship, they drill into your head to sand/paint with the grain and you are expected to cut in miters and such accordingly.

Petit easypoxy, Interlux Brightside, even though essentially alkyd based paints, are part of a paint system that achieve the next best thing to a spray job but with hand tools. People who rarely exceed the need or desire for beyond satin sheen expectations, are not always the best to ask what thinners or conditioners to use with a higher performance system. The best bet when dealing with custom paint systems of any kind without prior experience, is to follow the manufacturers guidelines to the letter.

[Saltiguy]

I found that article by Tom Hill in Wooden Boat to be very contrary to my experience and common sense.
Pipefitter's comment is right-on IMO
I believe in using 3 or four thin coats for best results. You keep your coats thin by using a yellow foam roller, and not loading it up. Flattening agent, particularly on traditional boats is the way to go.

[JimD]

You painted bare plywood? No cloth sheath over it? What kind of plywood?

[Longbow]

The bottom of the boat has a layer of 10 oz. glass that wraps around the chines for about 3.5 inches up the side of the boat. The hull was faired and then coated with a layer of high build primer which was then sanded until smooth. I have two coats of the easypoxy on now. As I said the paint looks great if you're looking straight at it, but is very wavy when viewed at an angle. I am going to sand the hull with 150 grit to try and even it out and then paint using a roller and brush. I have been using the foam rollers, but they don't seem to hold very much paint unless I really saturate them and then it goes on too thick when I first start rolling. I watched the video suggested by pipefitter and the guy in the video is using a nap roller and it seems to spread the paint much better. I'm going to order some flattening agent and take the paint from a gloss down to a satin if possible. I don't care if the paint is glossy, I just want a clean paintjob. Thanks for the help. The plywood is okuome.

[Lew Barrett]

I'm with both Jim D and Paul (Pipe) and also Cleek.

I am an Easypoxy fan with many years experience. I don't know if you job is compromised because you have a lot of grain to fill, or because you didn't flow out your brush marks, but there's no need for Penetrol with easypoxy.

Also, if you sanded an inferior surface back with Scotchbrite, you didn't do yourself any favors. Scotchbrite is good for a light scuff, but not for remedial or corrective sanding. It will just make the surface more irregular and is useless for pulling out brush marks and drips/runs/curtains.

Once you are happy with your substrates (prep...prep...prep....and, sad to say, "I did my best" usually isn't good enough) two coats of primer and 2 coats of Easypoxy should yield some of the best looking surfaces you've ever seen on a hand painted wooden boat. No Penetrol, just system thinner (T120/10)

I am a roll and tip guy myself, but some jobs do not suggest themselves for the approach. Lapstrake hulls will not benefit from R&T, for example.
There are better examples of great paintwork here to be sussed out, but this will do for illustrative purposes. People have surely tired of seeing this but what the hell:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/sternfinacoat.jpg

Two coats primer, First coat easypoxy

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/Hvalsoeoverhead.jpg
Fairing and filling the unpainted boat; it's not trivial

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/finalcoatcloseup.jpg

No penetrol, not an R&T job. Any holes or hollows in the garboard that you see are purely intentional, as the rubbing strakes get fastened back to them.



Here are your rules:

PREP! PREP! PREP!

Paint in best conditions.

Follow manufacturer's suggestions for compatible solvents.

No wind when you paint.

Practice makes perfect.

Use good brushes, or brushes you understand and know.

Clean, clean clean.


and finally.....

There's always next year.

[RodSBT]

Purdy makes the best brushes for smooth finishes.

[Longbow]

Lew, what do you mean by flowing out brush marks?

[Bruce Hooke]

Following up on what Lew said, I think the Scotchbright pad is a part of your problem. When sanding one coat of finish in preparation for the next coat, what you want is something that bridges the low spots and takes off the high spots. This is exactly what something soft like a Scotchbright pad does NOT do. Simply a folded piece of sandpaper will do quite a bit better, and the next step up is to use one of those rubber sanding blocks to back the sandpaper. Yes, it will take you a lot longer to sand one coat in preparation for the next coat. That is because you are actually doing something worthwhile -- taking down the high spots and creating a smooth surface for the next coat of paint.

Rolling and tipping has worked well for me but unless you can move very quickly and deftly it is really something that needs two people, one to roll and one to tip (unless you are dealing with a very small area). That, at least, is my experience.

[pipefitter]

If you are going to add flattening agent to the paint, brush marks will be harder to flow out for there being more solids in the paint. If you opt to flatten the paint, save it for the last coat and adjust the thinner ratio to flow out the brush marks.

Use the foam rollers. The guy in the video is painting a yacht, not a skiff. The foam roller will scale down the roller texture to skiff size and you won't get fuzz from the roller in your finish.

[Jay Greer]

Purdy makes the best brushes for smooth finishes.
Purdy brushes are ok. But I prefer those made by Hamelton. Incidently, I never use a roller for doing topsides. A good painter can lay on enamel as smooth as if it were spayed. In fact smoother, as there is no chance of over spray or eggshell surfacing. My guys and I were just finishing a topside job a while back and we were asked if the boat was made of fiberglass. Our answere was, "no, just treewood."
Jay

[Fitz]

Being the worst painter there is on this forum (me), I suspect Longbow is running into curtains and sags that are his "wavy" patterns. Too much paint is probably the issue. I have been years trying to teach the "more is better" part of myself that "less is better".

I'm learning though.

[Jay Greer]

If you were following the guide lines in that article by Tom Hill then you are in trouble. I have never read anything like it for painting advice. Six coats of paint and try to work up to TWELVE COATS is the most preposterous thing I have ever heard. This is a recipe for a paint sick boat and a lot of work down the road. And sanding with 320 grit ! what is that all about ? Next thing you know he wants pumice and rotten stone for that French Polished look. Anything finer than 220 and your wasting time and money for any alkyd enamel or long oil paints.

Find yourself somebody who knows their way around a brush and paint can and ask a lot of questions. It's not rocket science but a lot of hard work and practiced technique. 80% prep, 10% application and 10% clean up.
I agree, sounds like you have had a brush or two in your hand for a while. In the same vein, every once in a while, we have "looky loos"stop in and proceed to give us advice on the work we are doing. We always nod and thank them for their advice. Most of these guys are focused on some point some where far beyond my left ear as they expound their pet theories on painting!
Jay

[Lew Barrett]

Longbow, do you still need me to explain what I mean about "flow (brush strokes?)

I think you can see that there are roughly a dozen or so variables in painting that you get to control, and the rest is time, patience and developing your own technique. BTW, there are some terrific painters on this forum, most of whom believe that knowing how to finish a boat is a fundamental skill that all shipwrights must have. I make no claim to being a shipwright, or the most practiced painter on this forum, so all my stuff is given for what it's worth.

There is a lot of good advice here, but note (if you watched the video that Paul linked to, and then read Jay's and Feazer's advice) that there are alternate paths to a good looking paint job. Some guys swear by roll and tip (the video guy was amazing, don't you think?) and other equally competent people will tell you they would never roll and tip.

I use both approaches depending on what I am up against. For the topsides of my larger boat, R&T is the only way to go for me. My technique is aq modified version of what you saw in the utube clip Paul put up. However, that guy works his paint a bit more than I do. A few hints for the R&T thing (watch the video) are:

1. Note how the guy starts in the middle of the field. He does this so that the extra paint off the first couple of passes can be spread out from the center, not leaving extra material to curtain down later.
2. This guy's final tip out (but man, he's busy from start to finish!) is vertical.
He tips up from the bottom, just once and moves along. That's not exactly how I do it, but the fact that he tips out vertically can be useful to notice. Some guys say that finishing off vertically helps reduce sagging. However you tip out, be consistent.
3. You'll know that your rolled coat is even and properly applied when the bubbles and roller texture in the wet paint don't try to slip slowly down the hull sides. They should stay put. Make sure you cover everywhere; leave no holidays for later.
4. The paint should be thinned to minimize brush drag. It's a "feel" thing. But
too thin and coverage and gloss suffer. Too thick and you get runs and drips.
If you get a mixture you like (this takes just a little experience to achieve, but is not hard) keep an eye on it as you work. If the brush starts to drag, add just a bit more and keep on truckin'.
5. When you get it right, all your brush strokes will just flow out nicely in a minute or so. But when you get it really right, and lear to have a light touch, you'll barely put brush strokes into the job in the first place. Everything will move and flow quite nicely, and settle down.
6. Learning to paint is like training a dog, only you are the dog. Be relaxed, think your moves (and strategy for the boat at hand) through before you start
and enjoy putting on the paint, don't fear it. It's the reward for days of sanding and prep.

And remember: There's always another coat next year! It will be even better!

[pipefitter]

And sanding with 320 grit ! what is that all about ? Next thing you know he wants pumice and rotten stone for that French Polished look. Anything finer than 220 and your wasting time and money for any alkyd enamel or long oil paints.

Makes no sense at all to use a 320(the standard Purdy equals the texture of about 180-220 after cure) or finer pattern brush over a 220 grit prepped surface. Trad finishes, no, you won't see it. With self leveling, monourethane paints such as the easypoxy or brightside systems, you will. I know 'maybe' 1 out of 20 brush professionals that even know how to color sand properly or ever get to see work that really matters that much or know how to avoid sand scratch swelling. 9 out of 10, will wear the same old tired piece of 180 or 220 grit paper to somewhere around 400 grit and will manage burnish in some nib stripes while they are at it.


Find yourself somebody who knows their way around a brush and paint can and ask a lot of questions. It's not rocket science but a lot of hard work and practiced technique. 80% prep, 10% application and 10% clean up.

Someone who knows their way, doesn't brush paint out of a can, they paint out of a pot. ;)

If one wants a trad finish, there is easier paints to obtain and use other than ezpoxy or brightside, whose ultra high gloss will only highlight average tools, iffy prep and brush work. Ben Moore or Kirby's would be a better choice, allowing more time for corrections by default of a slightly longer tack time. Nothing wrong with traditional finishes, but the modern gloss systems just don't look so right, or as right as they could using trad tools and methods.


Lew, I think vertical tipping works better on slab sided boats from rail to chine for not needing to lift the brush and horizontal better on individual carvel planks where paint can pile on the seams, or lapstrake, or where there is multiple horizontal breaks in a finish. Trying to get a smooth stab of the brush under a plank reveal just doesn't work as well.

[Lew Barrett]

I agree Paul. Each problem suggests a particular approach, which is why I say it's good to have a couple of tricks in your tool kit!

I can say that my old carvel planked girl works well with vertical tipping, and she is not slab sided, but it is somewhat like paintin' a slab anyway :D A slab with tumblehome!

[Longbow]

Thanks everyone, so here is my plan: I am going to sand the paint with 150 grit to get a smooth surface. I sanded a small patch yesterday and got it smooth and still had most of the area covered with paint. It wasn't quite hard enough to sand well, so I'm going to let it cure another couple of days, then sand the rest of the hull. After that I'm going to roll and tip the transom with easypoxy with their recommended thinner added if necessary and leave out the penetrol. If the transom looks good I am going to continue with the rest of the boat. If the finish is good but too glossy, I'm going to use the flattening agent to give more of a satin finish. By using the transom as my test piece, I'm hoping that I can come up with a technique that works for me. If I run out of paint before that happens, I'm going to Lowe's and buy some cheap oil based house paint and go for the workboat look!

[JC 72]

Wow Lew, Great shot of your finished paint job on the Hvalsoe! The shot I saw of you with her on the water didn't show off your job as well. Lots of good advice too. When you were preping did you find any fasteners proud of the planking, and if so how did you address them?

[Lew Barrett]

Thanks, JC. I was lucky with the fasteners. I was lucky with the whole boat to be honest; it really was a pleasant and easy project.

Had I been of a mind with any proud ones I would have reset them with the clenching tools, but it really wasn't necessary. I suspect the next guy may have to push a few back in place, but I didn't. At the stern there were a couple that probably would have benefited from being re-set, but they held primer so what you see was all done with a longboard.

[JC 72]

I'm priming Merryrows right now. I don't think she will be as glassy as your one, but I need her painted by this weekend. I did fill the set clenched nails with the Smith & Co. fairing gel, so we will see how that holds up. Some of the fasteners in the frames are flush. We will let them be for now. I'm going with a satin oil base topside paint. She should look 10' "Bristol". Thats from 10 feet away LOL.

[pcford]

I have been in a small town in coastal Oregon with a crew of one or two doing a varnish job on the inside of a boat for 5 weeks now. The "Problem with paint" and "problem with varnish" attracted my eye.

A few points:

1. Above all...remember that sags, runs curtains are caused by uneven application of material. Unfortunately most peoples' experience with paint/varnish is via latex house paint. You can really slobber that stuff on. The material has to be applied evenly!! Roll and tip is one way of doing this.
2. Err on the side of skimpiness until you get a feel for the process. I sometimes advice newbys to use a foam brush...these don't puit much material. Painter's Commandment: Better to have a holiday than a run!
3. It takes concentration! Turn off the radio!
4. You do not need a 50 dollar Hamilton brush to do a good job. Absurd! Success is more in technique than in tools. In fact my main guy (work featured in Showboat.) says that Hamiltons are not good for varnish...but they are fine for polyurethanes....This is largely a matter of personal preference. It is possible to use foam brushes, though with experience you will find you do not like them as they feel like you are "painting with a brick."
5. Don't use Penetrol except with the most simple paint formulations. Use the thinner which is suggested on the can. Proper thinning is only learned with experience...Take it easy.
6. If you get runs...light sand the surface with 220 this will aid drying.
7. A yacht quality finish will require finer sandpaper than 220. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. We've been sanding with 400 for three days.

Again, go for eveness of coat. Also note that if a spot is too light...the heavier film above it will slide over it. The problem is not just putting it on too thick....

Good luck...take it easy...

[JC 72]

Lots of good advice. Thanks for the pointers pcford. I don't like foam either, always used good quailty paint brushes. Painting from a pot and conditioning the paint with appropriate additives. All that said it was sure fun watching my three kids painting away like crazy the first time we painted her. Lace curtains everywhere. I followed them around with a dry brush trying to tip and "paint off" some of their excitment. We were too late in the day, and the cool evening temps caused some dull spots on her garboard. No one saw them in the water. I still make balls of Varnish though. Always too much.

[Lew Barrett]

Practice makes perfect. Try not to do the same things over and over again hoping for a different result. For the results to change, so does your technique. So don't get in a rut and complain that "I always get drips" or "it always comes out dirty." If that is happening, you are still making some sort of mistake or combination of them. It's not hard, it does respond to logic, patience and thought.


That "even coverage" thing keeps coming up again and again, doesn't it?
I sand (for finish) to 320. That's usually good enough for me, but I change the paper A LOT. A really close eye passed over the boat in good light can still see the scratch from 320, but for me, that's as fine as I would ever need to go. Sanding with a block makes a huge difference, and it encourages movement along one plane as well, which tends to hide the scratch marks. Needless to say, I'm talking about sanding the prior coat's finish, not the wood, which can be finished at a much lower (coarser) grit, say 150.

Make sure that you know who is giving you advice on applying yacht enamel and who is talking about the brightsides/ezpoxy thing. Both Paul and PC Ford have made that point already. I am underscoring it.

And whoever says there's only one way to do this is not fully informed on the other legitimate ways that do exist.

[AstoriaDave]

Thanks everyone, so here is my plan: I am going to sand the paint with 150 grit to get a smooth surface. I sanded a small patch yesterday and got it smooth and still had most of the area covered with paint. It wasn't quite hard enough to sand well, so I'm going to let it cure another couple of days, then sand the rest of the hull. After that I'm going to roll and tip the transom with easypoxy with their recommended thinner added if necessary and leave out the penetrol. That sounds workable. When you go to choose a roller cover, get one with a very thin nap, probably 1/8th of an inch (kind used to roll on epoxy resin), and in a narrow width, either 3 inch or 4 inch. [You may have to buy 7-inch roller covers and hacksaw them to the narrower width; I have both 3 inch and 4 inch rollers, which allows me to make full use of the 7 inches, alternating rollers from job to job.] Roll on a small patch, maybe a foot by two feet. Tip from the wet edge back into the earlier paint, just to smooth out the surface and clean up any bubbles. Depends on the paint, but sometimes a foam brush, maintained in a "dry" state works better than a brush that has gotten saturated with paint. I just brush my foamies out and/or squeeze them between layers of paper towel to remove excess paint, as I roll.

Easypoxy, with the correct thinner, should flow right on. I think eliminating the Penetrol will really help.

[Bob Triggs]

Feazer, That was great!!! Thank you!!!

[Lew Barrett]

Agreed Bob!

Feazer I really appreciate the way you have said your piece. Your discourse could only come from a person with long and proven experience. Welcome to the forum, you'll be a valuable and informative voice here, that's for sure.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Feazer,
Good read.

[Candyfloss]

Feazer, thank you very much.

This is hull #3 ready to come off the mold. Nowhere near perfect, but the best I've managed so far.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/375539804.jpg

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/375539803.jpg

She is finished in all Altex products; 1 coat sealer, 1 coat epoxy primer, 5 coats epoxy undercoat, 3 coats Elite Polyurethene Gloss.

[pipefitter]

I also agree with you Feazer to a point, and is what I learned as a production painter, but that really is not the same with some of these hybrid paints. Even the best alkyd yacht enamel will never achieve the gloss of the monourethanes, even if it is sprayed and the latter is brushed. It is a different kind of gloss and quite superficial with the traditionals. The monourethanes(brightside, epiphanes and easypoxy) are a type of paint in working, that lie somewhere between traditional enamel and LPU in characteristic sense, with color depth and color retention in between about the same margins.

The problem with using heavy coats with these paints, or any air cured paint, realistically, is that they are so glossy and so well sealed, that the shrink rate differences between the glossy cured skin and the depths of the film varies greater than it does with the more porous, not so glossy finishes. 3-5 mils of thickness with any of these in one coat is asking for multiple issues, with alligator crazing and premature chalking/chipping being at the top of the list. These paints are best applied at less than a mil per coat, much like you would build hot solvent paints, allowing each to shrink/cure as much as possible, which alleviates the surprise issues as the thick coats take 3-4 months to fully cure out otherwise, all the while being more vulnerable to atmosphere as they gas off.

Paint films that are maintained at their ideal mil thicknesses, which is nowhere near 10 mils on a two coater, will outlast, outshine any overabundant coating of the same and are downright pleasant and inexpensive to refinish.

I can see the method to the madness in a production sense, but on the custom end of things, which building or maintaining one's own boat affords, there is room for extra particularities. Top finishing that is not minded by a production clock is one of those rare opportunities to do so.

As far as conditioners, we always mixed our own, but as a paint company, we could afford to have many jugs of different solvents on hand. Mineral spirits by the 55 gal, turps, Naptha, Kerosene, laquer thinner, Denatured alcohol, Linseed etc to match the conditions and seasons with. In the DIY sense, which most topics here address, one would go broke on a paint job quickly trying to simulate the proprietary thinners for these one offs.

As one who used to have to mix my own, the proprietary thinners that go with these systems is a great mix and works very well. IIRC, it was about 8.00 worth of thinner to do the entire boat. Have you priced a gallon of spirits lately?

I was a die hard oil painter for years, but I have to admit, done well, this shiny stuff is beautiful to work with, having all the best attributes and satisfactions you credit to your elder trade.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Feazer's comments did not strike as being those of an elder trade, if 'elder' implies slightly out of date. As I read the comments
again, I see 'enamels' are referred to, but I find Feazer's observations pretty much spot on to my own experience with marine paints and varnishes. Most commonly I use Brightside paint, a monourethane, or whatever the heck you want to call it. I have never analyzed the film thickness, all I know is that it is right, or it is not. As others have said, too little and the flow will be inadequate, too much and it is curtains! The goal seems to be maximum build up and hiding with just the right flow, no curtains or heavy spots. In my mind it is largely about how you unload the brush, or roller. Unloading a roller for the unitiated can be a disaster - in no time one could have far too much paint (or varnish) over a large area - its sag city and impossible to brush out. This has all been said before, I found Feazer's comments rather refreshing.

My paint schedule, after diligent filling and fairing of nail head dimples, for a cedar planked Hvalsoe 13 or 16, goes something like, clear coat sealer, one or two prime coats, or one prime coat and one split coat, and two topcoats.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Related to questions of fairing - I just finished some structural work on a Fir plywood chine runabout. The boat is kind of interesting, a lot of flair, a lot of shape. The owner bore into the topsides with a cicular sander of some sort. Ruined the surface, so easy to do with flat sawn Fir veneers. The best solution I could think of was troweling over and carefully fairing with System Three Quikfair epoxy compound. Glass sheathing might have been a good idea as well, but the client chose not to go to that expense. I got a nice surface with the Quickfair, and told the client to consult with both System Three and his chosen paint manufacturer about overcoating.

[pipefitter]

Feazer's comments did not strike as being those of an elder trade, if 'elder' implies slightly out of date. As I read the comments
again, I see 'enamels' are referred to, but I find Feazer's observations pretty much spot on to my own experience with marine paints and varnishes. Most commonly I use Brightside paint, a monourethane, or whatever the heck you want to call it. I have never analyzed the film thickness, all I know is that it is right, or it is not. As others have said, too little and the flow will be inadequate, too much and it is curtains! The goal seems to be maximum build up and hiding with just the right flow, no curtains or heavy spots. In my mind it is largely about how you unload the brush, or roller. Unloading a roller for the unitiated can be a disaster - in no time one could have far too much paint (or varnish) over a large area - its sag city and impossible to brush out. This has all been said before, I found Feazer's comments rather refreshing.

My paint schedule, after diligent filling and fairing of nail head dimples, for a cedar planked Hvalsoe 13 or 16, goes something like, clear coat sealer, one or two prime coats, or one prime coat and one split coat, and two topcoats.

Never said he wasn't right in his assessment and it was very well put and I am not even being contrary in typical forum fashion, but I will tell you this much, if you lay on Brightside in 5 mils in one coat, you will have curtains, sags and runs that you can hang your hat and coat on if you are painting a vertical surface.

Ever used any of the barrier coatings such as interprotect? They suggest a mil thickness of 10 mils or more. It's a very thick, high solids, 2 part coating that is thicker than sandable primer and it takes 2 or 3 coats to arrive at 10 mils. A common kitchen garbage bag is around a mil.

How many paint product instructions can you read, where it says several thin coats are better than one thick? Why is it that when you see topics of painting on DIY forums, that it is the norm to classify finishes by the foot of distance that you must stand from them in order to not see the flaws? After all of that fairing and prep, I would be somewhat upset to settle for a 2, 3 or 10 ft finish. A new boat with a 10 ft finish? Would you buy a new car with a 10 ft, work car finish? Can't see it from my house?

My point alludes towards the 0 ft finish. It's an achievable option with some modification of traditional technique, that requires no sanding/buffing after the fact, which is the beauty of the modern coating systems for which they were designed. Brush marks and all that are well and good and an acceptable standard and even look correct in some circles but then why waste the money on a flow paint? Match the hatch and use the traditional paints that make those notions more historically and visually correct.

When I was painting, the worst repair and refinishes and band aid patch jobs were those that had seen years of too many thick coats of paint. Keep your coatings at an ideal mil minimum and feather sanding your repairs will nearly occur by default of the scuff job itself, instead of area blending and spot primer builds and refairing, only to have it reappear as the builds shrink in short order, or to have dead paint rear it's ugly head under your new coats months down the road. The difference between reNEWing a surface vs. repairing one. Sorry, I've tried it all the different ways and I have seen what fails, what is miserable and what is pleasant. Surfaces that improve with every repaint over those that become an illusion of what they once were.

I am sure that Feaser is a very good painter and I agree with him to a point and my elder trade comment was in reference to his own explanation of his era of painting to when he hung up his brushes and to the remarks about french polish and pumice as if that is out of place with a boat in the year 2009. There is a faction of the trade that is allowed to reach for higher standards of finish, regardless of what traditional practices may depict.

[Longbow]

Well the pain continues. I had ordered the proper thinner and the foam rollers that are recommended as well as getting a very nice Purdy brush. I sanded the hull down, vacuumed it twice followed by a tack rag and then a final wipe with a clean t-shirt. I started out using the roll and tip method, using the paint from the can without thinning as per the instructions. The paint looks good on a horizontal surface, but as soon as I try to paint the sides it starts to sag. I experimented with differing amounts of thinner, but still cannot get an even coat either rolling and tipping or just brushing. I don't have brush marks, but just a very wavy finish. I admit I haven't done a lot of boat painting, but I've painted lots of other things and I've never seen paint that behaved in this way. Today I tried adding some of the flattening agent, hoping that if the paint wasn't so glossy that maybe it would give an acceptable result. I can say that didn't help. Fortunately I only painted a portion of the hull and onece it's dry I can sand it back fairly quickly. As I previously stated I am not a great painter, but I don't think I'm doing anything so blatantly wrong that it should cause me this many problems. It seems to me that Petit is trying to make this paint out as being all things to all people, easy to apply with roller, brush or spray etc. While it seems that it might work well sprayed, I don't think it is suitable for any type of hand application. So here's where I'm at : I have approximately 2 full coats on the hull. I don't care about gloss, I'd just like a smooth even coat of paint. I'd like to paint over the 2 coats present now with a simple to use brushable paint that will spread evenly without leaving brush marks. I'd prefer something as benign as possible, even with a respirator the residual smell of this stuff is awful. Does any body have any suggestions for a non-carcinogenic, low tech paint that is compatible with what I have already applied that comes in some shade of blue that is a semi-gloss or satin? If it could be available locally that would be a big help as well. Thanks for the continuing help!

[AstoriaDave]

Longbow,

Likely it is mostly in the technique. I suspect one of us would need to stand and watch to pick out exactly what is not working.

Strictly guessing, I suspect three things: 1. the paint is a bit thick; 2. the roller is overloaded at the beginning of each application; 3. you need to use a dry brush for tip-out. A dry brush will pull the excess off as well as anything. If the solvents in the paint do not attack the foam in a disposable foam brush, consider laying in a stash of these in 2-inch width and using them to tip out. A "good" bristle brush may be loading up too much with paint and not be as effective at tipping out as a foam brush.

You might want to experiment on some scrap just before rolling the stuff on.

BTW, if you are getting any odor through your mask, it is not doing its job. If you are not using fresh organic vapor cartridges on it, change the ones you do have out ASAP. And, make sure you have a good fit on your face.

[Vinny&Shawn]

Well the pain continues. , I'd just like a smooth even coat of paint. I'd like to paint over the 2 coats present now with a simple to use brush-able paint that will spread evenly without leaving brush marks. I'd prefer something as benign as possible, even with a respirator the residual smell of this stuff is awful. Does any body have any suggestions for a non-carcinogenic, low tech paint that is compatible with what I have already applied that comes in some shade of blue that is a semi-gloss or satin? If it could be available locally that would be a big help as well. Thanks for the continuing help!

Find Benjamin Moore, floor enamel, they are easy to apply,great gloss,scuff between coats,(you can hot coat)if you want. Wears like iron! We use them on all our boats,Acorn dingy has gone 5 years with little degradation.
You can use penatrol,turps or thinner. Thinned primer first,but it sounds like you have enough material on now.Sand this down let it dry completely. Good brush, china bristle,no roller. Very forgiving.
We have a gaff cutter use it all over,refinished all my ash blocks with BM,nice gloss,hard shell like finish. Most Lobsterman use this hard wear resistant paint for their work boats!!

[Candyfloss]

I too thought I'd done a bit of painting before, but it wasn't till I started painting my dinghy's more vertical surfaces that I discovered how DRY it has to go on. Especially at the bow, where any excess paint gathers in the laps & runs down. That is an 8ft dinghy & it uses less than 75ml per coat.

[Bob Cleek]

Purdy brushes are ok. But I prefer those made by Hamelton. Incidently, I never use a roller for doing topsides. A good painter can lay on enamel as smooth as if it were spayed. In fact smoother, as there is no chance of over spray or eggshell surfacing. My guys and I were just finishing a topside job a while back and we were asked if the boat was made of fiberglass. Our answere was, "no, just treewood."
Jay

Took the words right out of my mouth, Jay! Although I got roundly trounced for once saying I thought "roll and tip" was a bunch of BS. A good painter OUGHT to be EXPECTED to lay on enamel as smooth as if it were sprayed. Noting some of the comments above, if you are sanding your gloss coats fair, you clearly did not do a proper and sufficient surface prep. (I have no idea what people are talking about when they say brush strokes are desireable because they make the wood look like wood!... and I come from a long line of painters.)

I was just up in Port Townsend this last week and had a chat with the fellow at American Ship Supply, (a REAL honest to God chandlery.) We were talking paint and he noted that all the wooden boat painters up there demand traditional alkyd paints, which is why he carried such a good selection. He said they all do topside jobs with a brush. I said, "What else?" We had a good laugh at all the poly-whatever paints on the market and ended up agreeing that a good paint job is 90% painter and 10% paint.

I've gotten to the point where if somebody doesn't mistake a topside job for 'glass, I know I haven't done it well enough.

[Bob Cleek]

There is a lot of information here about brush painting and much of this is somewhat subjective depending on the conditions where the painting is done and the users skill level. Most of my brushes are about 35 years old and still in nice shape. That is as much as I want to say about my background.

Sanding beyond 220-240 grit is essentially not necessary and in fact a waste time for enamel work for the following reasons. The grit size of 220 or 240 is about .002” or much less once the paper is used a bit. A good brush painter will or should apply at least 4-5 mils per coat. If you reduce your paint 10-20% with thinners then once the vehicle flashes and leaves the coating you will have proportionately less material and the surface affects of shrinkage. Any way you slice it a good coat of enamel will have no problem filling and flowing over any surface profile created by 220 grit paper. In Fact 180 will do the job if you can swing a brush and don’t need to reduce too much. If your paint won’t cover a 220 grit profile you are either over thinning or not putting down enough material or both. Not really an opinion it’s a fact. As you may notice I am not a proponent of lots of thin coats. Those jobs lack depth and hide due to layers of solvent loss.

Brush painting offers an advantage in application over the roller in that it forces the paint into the sanded surface profile and thus almost always achieves a better secondary bond. This has been tested and proven by the US Navy, Rempel Paint company and many others over the years. It is old knowledge that by and large has little foot hold in this day and age but can be of some use to boat owners and painters. I have nothing against rolling and tipping but let’s face it the only real reason for doing this is because the painter cannot carry the surface area with a brush. I watched the video that Pipe Fitter linked and frankly if I could not carry that surface with one of my Black Swans on my worst day I would have hung up my brushes long ago ( actually they were hung up long ago ). My old crew routinely did high gloss topsides on yachts from 75-100’ in the water with the boot taped. We scuffed between first and second and last coat with 220 only. We used the old Purdy Black Swans 4-5” depending. These are what was known as over square brushes where the bristles were longer than the ferrule was wide. Good spring with the ability to hold serious material both of which you need if you are carrying real footage. Chisel cut badger hair brushes are fine for varnish or flow coats but really fall short pushing and pulling enamels around. All surfaces were laid off horizontally we never tipped vertical. If our work didn't look better and last longer than a spray job we would never have hung onto to the quality of customers we served.

Following the directions on the can is always a good idea but having dealt with paint company field techs and some of their chemists you learn that these are printed more for legal reasons than anything else. If you don’t know much about paint systems and what is compatible and what is not then stay with the recommended reducers and application specs. Those who are in the business of painting by necessity have to tweak the rules a bit in order to maintain schedules and production. Frankly some of the time you get a lesser quality job because you do cheat a bit but it was the only way to finish the job and move on.

Brush painting is more about prep than anything if you want a nice fair high gloss job . Keep in mind any paint that has less gloss has less hide. Hide is the hard slick shiny surface that (1) protects against the elements, (2) easier to clean, (3) reflects more sunlight and heat, and just lasts longer. When a high gloss surface ablates or is shot it starts looking like a semi-gloss or flat surface at the worst. Semi and flat paints have porous surfaces and break down much faster due to softness and all of the nooks and cranny’s they provide. A close look under a microscope will easily show the truth. The real benefit in terms of coating with semi's and flats is good coverage and they obscure most surface imperfections due to less reflective quality. Since a gloss hide is not necessary more pigment can be added especially with whites that use titanium oxide. The old Z-Spar 99 is a perfect example of a paint that would really cover — soft and lots of pigment and body. Not all boats need or want a high gloss paint job.

Flow is the name of the game with brush or any painting. The two most important things to using a brush are: (1) to properly condition the paint for the job. Basically controlling the viscosity of the paint for brush and the conditions where you are painting. Knowing that heat and wind are your two biggest enemies so the paint has to be adjusted many times as the job progresses. On big yachts we sometimes would start brushing at 8am when the dew lifted and would finish one side by around noon without any stops since there were no breaks in the hull topsides. One man did nothing but mix and handle paint buckets. (2) learn to meter your brush. Metering the brush is simply the technique of dipping and filling the brush to the same level each time and knowing how much surface it will cover consistently . This is so critical to good flow that it cannot be over emphasized. By dipping a GOOD Quality brush to the same level every time and working the same real estate with every brush load you will master the key to flow out. Of course you have to be able to swing a brush.

Good enamels will only flow and achieve the sprayed-like smooth look if it is applied at the same thickness throughout and properly conditioned for the job. Once those two parts of the equation are fulfilled any good quality paint will take care of itself unless the cure environment changes radically. When the paint is the right viscosity and applied heavy enough it flows into itself and settles down into one big continuous smooth surface free of brush marks, holidays and runs. The combination of surface tension and bonding with the substrate surface allows this to happen and keeps the material from sliding off. Too little paint and the surface will fail to flow while too much results in runs or curtains The trick is to put enough paint down so that you are just almost to the run or curtain stage —no more or no less. Heat and wind are your biggest impediments to a paint settling in and flowing properly.

I have said quite enough here so good luck to all

Read this over again, guys. He is absolutely correct!

[Bob Cleek]

I also agree with you Feazer to a point, and is what I learned as a production painter, but that really is not the same with some of these hybrid paints. Even the best alkyd yacht enamel will never achieve the gloss of the monourethanes, even if it is sprayed and the latter is brushed. It is a different kind of gloss and quite superficial with the traditionals. The monourethanes(brightside, epiphanes and easypoxy) are a type of paint in working, that lie somewhere between traditional enamel and LPU in characteristic sense, with color depth and color retention in between about the same margins.

The problem with using heavy coats with these paints, or any air cured paint, realistically, is that they are so glossy and so well sealed, that the shrink rate differences between the glossy cured skin and the depths of the film varies greater than it does with the more porous, not so glossy finishes. 3-5 mils of thickness with any of these in one coat is asking for multiple issues, with alligator crazing and premature chalking/chipping being at the top of the list. These paints are best applied at less than a mil per coat, much like you would build hot solvent paints, allowing each to shrink/cure as much as possible, which alleviates the surprise issues as the thick coats take 3-4 months to fully cure out otherwise, all the while being more vulnerable to atmosphere as they gas off.

Paint films that are maintained at their ideal mil thicknesses, which is nowhere near 10 mils on a two coater, will outlast, outshine any overabundant coating of the same and are downright pleasant and inexpensive to refinish.

I can see the method to the madness in a production sense, but on the custom end of things, which building or maintaining one's own boat affords, there is room for extra particularities. Top finishing that is not minded by a production clock is one of those rare opportunities to do so.

As far as conditioners, we always mixed our own, but as a paint company, we could afford to have many jugs of different solvents on hand. Mineral spirits by the 55 gal, turps, Naptha, Kerosene, laquer thinner, Denatured alcohol, Linseed etc to match the conditions and seasons with. In the DIY sense, which most topics here address, one would go broke on a paint job quickly trying to simulate the proprietary thinners for these one offs.

As one who used to have to mix my own, the proprietary thinners that go with these systems is a great mix and works very well. IIRC, it was about 8.00 worth of thinner to do the entire boat. Have you priced a gallon of spirits lately?

I was a die hard oil painter for years, but I have to admit, done well, this shiny stuff is beautiful to work with, having all the best attributes and satisfactions you credit to your elder trade.


This true, also. However, we have to remember that these uretheanes and 'poxies really aren't compatible with wooden boats. Their ultra high gloss characteristics are designed for fibreglass and metal hulls. If you want topsides that look like a new gelcoat, buy a fibreglass boat. When that fibreglass starts to oxidize and look like crap, paint it with LPU or monopoxie. This isn't to say that a well done wooden topside should not look glossy and perfect. The point is, gloss isn't everything. "Gloss" is 99% preparation and 1% paint. If you spend a lot of money on fancy plastic paint and put it on a crappy surface, you will profit nothing other than a nice glossy crappy surface. The critical point is that these miracles of modern chemistry (and they DO have their value and uses) are VERY tricky to apply properly when compared to traditional alkyd enamels. The paint companies sell this stuff as if it was the greatest discovery since sliced bread. Most of it goes to waste in the hands of anybody other than professionals well trained and experienced in using these tricky products. If you try to paint your wooden boat outdoors on a hot (or cold) day in a dirty boatyard with paint that was designed to be sprayed on metal airplanes by professionals in climate controlled dust-free spray booths, you are going to have to expect problems.

[thebrushand]

Interesting thread. A couple of observations from a Euro painter who knows nothing but oil paint.

Thickness of coatings - Traditionally, primer should be thin, oily and applied by brush, which makes for maximum mechanical adhesion, while satisfying the porosity of the wood. Undercoats should be heavily pigmented, little oil and should be troweled on (metaphorically of course) and sanded / filled / sanded and filled again, and finally sanded hard until the surface is perfectly smooth. The gloss coat is the shine, the coating that should be too smooth for rain drops to cling to - and should definitely not be relied on for evening out dings and marks and building up the film. From 3 feet, it should look perfect, and really close up, the finish should be flawless too, but IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to see evidence that the substrate is wood!

That is the old tried and tested alkyd oil system applied by brush, and each layer modified by the painter depending on the conditions and the substrate. No worries about solvents, just turps and Penetrol every time. Simple.

I think it is probably a bit much to expect a diy painter to work out the nuances, and trained pros are getting thin on the ground too, so maybe that explains why the chemists come up with simplified processes like primer-undercoat combined, and if their hybrid paint systems fail, hey, it is the user's fault?

And when it comes to sanding, 220, 180, in my experience, use whatever it takes to flatten filler and flatten paint in order to provide a key without pronounced scratch marks. Another judgement call I suppose, where experience tells.

I am a total Abranet junky, check it out, there is nothing like it. I use nothing else nowadays, not even wet ' n' dry for final sanding, because Abranet does it all. And it is so kind on your finger tips.

Thanks to Jay Greer for his advice last year with penetrol, the Epifanes lac on the topsides still looks like fibreglass and even resisted a fire!

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Putting too much paint on Longbow, as others have pointed out.
Pipefitter, no criticism intended. We agree the marine finishes go on thin. Nothing against the straight enamels, I just have not used them in awhile. A thin marine coat will show you EXACTLY what you have for substrate (ie, previous curtains and sags) Longbow, sounds like you are in a tricky landscape. You would have to sand carefully with the right tools to get back to a flat, level surface. There are ways to fill, ah but I'm not going there.

[Longbow]

I'm in the process of sanding the boat back down now. I'm not going all the way down to the wood but just until I can get a flat even surface. I've started with 120 grit and then finishing up with 220 and the surface seems to be evening out well. I had ordered 2 quarts of the Easypoxy in ocean blue and 2 quarts in semi-gloss white. I didn't use any of the white, so it's going back. It seems like some people have great success with it, but not me. I bought some Kirby's and I'm going to try it out on some scrap pieces and try to get my technique down, I'll definitely try to put it on thin coats. Hopefully by this weekend I'll see how it turns out.

[Longbow]

So I started experimenting tonight. The first coats I put on my test piece were thin enough to be translucent. I then increased the paint load and tried a different spot. The paint covered well, but definitely started to sag. This paint was unthinned. Should the first coat be thin enough so that it just tints the surface without covering and then be built up by successive coats? This seems to give the best result without sagging.

[pipefitter]

Should the first coat be thin enough so that it just tints the surface without covering and then be built up by successive coats? This seems to give the best result without sagging.

Yes. Plus, by the time you get to the last hide coats, You will be a much better painter. Sanding will be nearly pleasurable by that point as well and your surface will only get better as you go. With these hybrid enamels, multiple build coats will give more color depth and a much warmer result. Almost like that of a built up, hand rubbed finish.

[pipefitter]

Putting too much paint on Longbow, as others have pointed out.
Pipefitter, no criticism intended. We agree the marine finishes go on thin. Nothing against the straight enamels, I just have not used them in awhile.

I didn't really look at it as criticism. More a mix of opinions that work either way. I still enjoy the topic and the input.

[hansp77]

Great thread and lots of good advice- virtually nothing I can add.
I'm a house painter, and no surprise that I just stick to what I know. Good (and comparatively cheap) house enamel. Works for me with a boat on a swing mooring all year.
Along the lines of Feazer's excellent points, I like to lay it on in that delicate state of just-not-too-thick to run or sag, and can't see much point sanding beyond 180 either. But then, on my boat, I am not all that concerned about 'the perfect finish'. In houses, when the client specifies (ie keep it cheap as possible), with a good prime/undercoat and sand, from raw timber, it is not all that hard to get a satisfactory finish with even one topcoat. Two and your laughing.
I've never tried these fancy marine paints, and from the lengths it seems people have to go to get that perfect finish, I am in no rush to change that;) (more power to you guys that go after and achieve what you want here)
For rolling and tipping I much prefer a good worn in (the first few uses with drop hairs) 'mohair' sleeve (specifically made for gloss paints) than a foam one. Less likely to drip, leave tracks and bubbles, and holds a decent amount of paint while laying it on in a more consistent manner IMO. YMMV.
The only trouble I've had with house enamel is going after the colour we wanted first, and accepting the base it had to come with. This was a clear or 'extra bright' base- first time I used it- on the boat. Covered appallingly and is just generally a nightmare to use.
Matching colours already down, for recoats on commercial jobs (offices etc)- lately- this clear 'extra bright' base has been the bane of my existence. On my own stuff, or in working where I have the choice, I will now only be using colours that come in a proper base (tinted from white, or a true colour base with tints) as the paint is so much better and usually covers in literally one coat.
In offices (air con) and hot houses, (and much the same as I would imagine professional boat painters are faced with) one often doesn't have the luxury to pick and choose the perfect conditions of when to do the job- this is where rolling and tipping helps us. We do big mirror finish high gloss office doors with two people- follow your system, rip through it and onto the next one. Often one person could do it alone, but it just works better for us this way.

All I would say is, Longbow, for whatever paint you are using, follow up on your idea to do some practice coats on the type of surface and angles that are giving you problems- then once you figure it out take it to the boat. And don't sweat the details too badly! As said, there is always next time, and the time after that.

In the end, I look at paint, on my boat, 'utilitarianly', as a pleasantly (hopefully) coloured protective covering. That is about it for me. No obvious drips, runs, orange peel, etc, well that's nice too, but aint going to break my heart if there are a few exceptions.
I leave the quest for that 'perfect finish' for moments when some-one else is paying for my time:D

Best of luck.