Storage for two Years and Doesnt Want a Survey??

[cccomander]

Hey guys--haven't posted before. I know this forum may not be he right place for this--if not I apologize. I am looking at a CC 1951 29' Super Enclosed this weekend that has been in storage for two years. Its priced at 14K firm which I think is great if everything works. But the guy doesnt want to fool with a survey. He thinks I should be happy just running the engines for a few seconds. I understand it will be a hassle to survey it--trailering, putting in, soaking in and then the risk something happens but wouldn't it be imprudent not to do it? I've only bought one old boat (18' Continental) so feel free to tell me I'm being a nervous nelly. Also, is it crazy fo rme to just eyeball the hull and decide wihtout a soak in that it probably will be okay. I'm reaosnably competent in evaluating the condition of the wood--I've replanked the topsides and transom on my Continental. Thanks for any words of advice you might give.

[Raka025]

There is nothing wrong with wanting a survey and it will be highly recommended by everyone here, myself included. You would want to know what you are getting into, yes? As far as soaking her to see if she floats, I do not see it as necessary. A good survey would assess all that. I bought a boat out of the water for 18 years and I am reasonably sure it wouldn't have floated. :eek:

Some folks use survey's to beat owners down. When I sold my previous boat I had two parties interested. One didn't get a survey the other did. The one wanting the survey had the higher bid. The survey guy backed out as they found stuff he didn't want to tackle and perhaps wanted me to drop the price. Luckily the lower bid guys were still interested.

Good luck and get a survey. Oh, welcome to the forum.

[brad9798]

Well ... it's your money. It's your choice.

If you are comfortable in evaluating everything, then go for it.

If the guy does not want you to get a survey, there are typically two reasons:

1) he really doesn't want to sell it/sell it to you
2) he's afraid of what you/the surveyor will find

Again, you money = your prerogative.

Good luck.

[cccomander]

BTW--I posted this in this forum becauth I think you guys would probably know best about how to evaluate this boats' systems and hull. The guy hasn't said I cant do a survey but he wants me to get insurance and for me to arrange everything, pay for everything and is insisting I am being overly cautious given the price. Can a mechanic run the engine from putting the intake in a bucket of water (and filling it with a garden hose?). I've done this before for a short time.

[michigangeorge]

$14,000 is not a lot of money for that boat in good condition. The owner is likely selling at quite a loss and simply has no patience for tire kickers. In his mind the boat is a steal and any potential buyers are fools for not jumping on it. Maybe no one has told him the economy sucks and if he does not sell it before gas goes up again, nobody will even look at it as the model is not a high-roller type of boat. How are you set for gas money? :-)

[cccomander]

Youre right Michigangeorge--that's exactly the guy's outlook on the situation--and maybe he's right. True about the gas $$$$. I'm looking at bigger cruisers too. There's a 37 Commander in pretty good shape I think I can get for $20K!! All she needs is a scrape and paint on the bottom and she's ready to go. But wow is she a guzzler

[brad9798]

Walk away RIGHT NOW if gas $$ is in your mind. :rolleyes:

And yes, you can run an engine all day on a full bucket of water ... assuming you fill as fast as it empties!

[donald branscom]

It is simple. One of you is going to have to PAY for the survey.

He does not want to, so you need to offer to pay, BUT do not give the results to the owner.
YOU paid and it is YOUR information.

If he wants to know sell it to him.

[Timex]

I would not worry about soaking it.

But the owner should allow you to bring along a guy who is knowledgeable in wood boats, for a Survey.

Talk to the owner, what kind of maintenance has he performed, has he done any major repairs?
How’s his receipts & records.
If he was serious, he has all that.
If he didn't bother to keep track, well that speaks for it's self.

A small mag-lite, and one of those automotive telescoping mirrors, to see the other side, in spaces you can’t poke your head thru.

Boat sat for 2-years, blocked or on a trailer?
Was it properly blocked?
Stored for 2yrs, inside or out-side?
Any signs of planks pulling out?
Check the aft hull planks around the chines.
Check the inside of the transom, on the other side of the apron, and the bottom of the cheeks.
Sound out the hull planks, where fastened, check from inside the main & intermediate frames.
This is a Flush Deck model, which is a plus.
Twin or Single Screw.
6v or 12v?
How many hours on the motor/s?

This boat may have been anally cared for by the owner, or just used and stored.

Parts that haven't turned and run in 2 yrs, on a 58yr old boat, can co$t big money, water-pumps, shaft-seals, hoses, batteries.
Some of this stuff, is not available at Pep-Boys.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just point some things out.

Tim

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/195129ftSE.jpg

[Saltiguy]

You can do a thorough survey without getting her wet. As the prospective buyer, if you insist on putting her in the water, an agreement can be made.
ie: All costs are paid by you if you do NOT buy the boat at the asking price.
If you DO buy the boat, the seller deducts your expenses from the asking price.

[cccomander]

I'll ask these questions. He just emailed me and said the bucket method wont work with MO engines?! I can't imagine why not. I'm pretty leery of an engine that has been pretty much sitting around for two years and I can only crank it up and run it for a few seconds.

[Lew Barrett]

The costs for examining the boat are borne by the prospective buyer, not the seller regardless if a survey results in a sale or not. You don't get a pass on the expenses regardless if you buy the boat or not. This is not unreasonable. It is unreasonable to ask that a buyer not get a survey however. It should be no skin off the sellers nose if you get a survey done.

Any costs incurred by the actions of a surveyor in your employ are however, your responsibility. In other words, he will be required to do a non-destructive survey in this case. No fastener pulling, etc. In addition to a pre purchase survey, you should do a sea trial after you consummate the deal but before you exchange funds. That will tell you about the condition of the motors.

[cccomander]

Oh I assumed I would pay for the survey. Anybody know someone good near Wilmington NC?

That is the right boat in the brochure above. This one has the optional dual controls and windscreen.

[24hacker]

BTW--I posted this in this forum becauth I think you guys would probably know best about how to evaluate this boats' systems and hull. The guy hasn't said I cant do a survey but he wants me to get insurance and for me to arrange everything, pay for everything and is insisting I am being overly cautious given the price. Can a mechanic run the engine from putting the intake in a bucket of water (and filling it with a garden hose?). I've done this before for a short time.
There is an item called "Fake-a-Lake" which will allow you to run water from a reservoir (bucket) to the water intake - this way it will check the function of the water pump.

[cccomander]

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/100_0014.jpg

[brad9798]

Very pretty boat ... for 14k, what the heck, do it.

But that is me speaking ... I tend to just buy things sometimes!

[rbgarr]

Interview some NAMS surveyors or check with the Hampton Mariner's Museum in Hampton VA to get recommendations for CC knowledgeable professionals.

http://www.namsglobal.org/find-a-marine-surveyor/

[peter radclyffe]

can youalso look at the last survey

[Lew Barrett]

Boat looks OK in the pictures, but if it's been out of the water for two years, that isn't a recent photo.

I like it myself. Looks like a really fun boat.

[Timex]

Good looking boat!

I really like the way the hose with water over side, keeps the marina topped off!!!

Just kiddin'

Tim

[Todd D]

One other consideration. If you intend to insure it, it is almost certain that the insurance company will require a survey before issueing a policy.

Lew has it exactly right. The buyer is responsible for 100% of the cost of the survey. If you are really concerned about the condition of the engine(s), you can always hold back some of the purchase price until you are satisfied that they run properly. Put that in your offer along with language letting you back out and get your deposit back if you are not happy with the survey. The latter is also standard practice.

[Saltiguy]

The buyer always pays for a survey
However, if a buyer insists on trailering, a launch and a "boat ride", an arrangement can be made that the buyer pays for my time and effort, unless he buys the boat.
I've done this a number of times. It weeds out tire-kickers and joy riders. For example, I won't take a buyer for a "trial" until a deposit has been made or the buyer agrees to pay me a fee for the ride if he doesn't buy the boat.
Sailboaters are the worst when it comes to tire-kicking and wasting time. Every time I've sold a sailboat, the problem is always that they want it out of the water, unless it's already out of the water, and if it's out, they want it in. In either event, they want to go for a sail, to see how she perform on different points of sail, etc. No Thanks. If they want all that, there will be payment involved, whether they buy the boat or not.

I remember one guy in particular. I had a 24 foot glass keel boat for sale - pristine in every way. I had her on a municipal mooring stripped of the mast, sails, rudder, cushions, outboard engine and anything else that might be stolen. All items were nearby at my place of business, and he examined everything to his satisfaction. The price was to be $4,000., fully rigged and a few hours of tutorial upon purchase.
Next day he called. He wanted me to commission the boat, take it to a marina (22 miles away by water) so his "friend" could examine the bottom. My response was that we would keep the boat in its present location, and his friend could snorkle around the boat in 4 foot water and examine to his heart's content. BTW, the entire hull was easily accessible from the interior as well- no real need for an exterior examination. He replied that his friend told him that if I wasn't willing to pull it out of the water that I must be trying to hide something. I replied that I was perfectly willing to have her examined, but that I was NOT willing to spend 2 days of my time in the process plus the expense of the travel lift. I suggested that he agree in writing to buy the boat, give me a 10 percent deposit and that I would agree in writing to deduct for any deficiencies found in the hull. No deal. The guy actually started crying - caught between me and his "friend. That was on a Monday. On Friday, I sold it to another guy for my asking price - almost sight unseen. I told him where it was, he got some kid to row him out to the mooring, peeked in the ports, called me back and bought the boat - without even seeing the engine (almost new Honda) the sails or the mast.

[Ethan]

That boat looks familiar.....and the location jives.....any other pics?

[cccomander]

more picshttp://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/100_0014.jpg

[cccomander]

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/100_0015.jpg

[cccomander]

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/100_0026.jpg

[boattruck]

CC, I'm with all the others, get your survey, the current owner may be reluctant for any number of reasons, but you have every right to be reluctant to'get off your wallet' till you know more about the boats current condition, let us know how all this goes, Cheers, BT
PS the 'Fake a Lake' thing is basicly a toilet plunger on an adjustable stick with a waterhose connection, it will allow you to safely run the engines indefinately...

[cccomander]

Thanks everyone--I have already called and left a message for a surveyor. I figure that if the engines turn out to be junk, my $14,500 bargain becomes a $30,000 dip into the college fund. So its worth $300 to the surveyor

[brad9798]

WOW! Are you saying it will be $15,500 to re-power?

You could repower that thing with 283 blocks for less than 1/3 of that!

[cccomander]

Two engines for less than $5,000? Where can I get that deal?

[Larks]

Good luck CC, she looks lovely so I hope the survey shows up all positives for you.

[Lew Barrett]

Mark, I'd say it's an acceptable price if the boat has good reliable systems and is in the sort of condition we'd expect from the photos and without any surprises. Evaluating the pricing of boats is something of a black art, but my thought is that generally, condition is more important than price.
Try to remember that (like Sheryl Crow said) "Good is good and bad is bad."
In between doesn't help you much.

We're all a bunch of big, fat losers anyway.....when it comes to boats and money, that is.

[floatingkiwi]

Aah, did anyone mention a compression test? It is quick and easy, leaves no trace of it being performed,( unless you are covered in blood with muddy boots on and throw up all over the boat), and tells you an awful lot about the down to the guts of it, condition of the engines.

[Lew Barrett]

All good stuff here. And I agree Mark. The market has tanked for most boats because we're talking luxury items here. But if you are going to be a buyer in a buyer's market, it still pays to remember that what you pay for a boat is sometimes less important than the quality of what you buy in the first place.

By this I mean it's great/best to get a great deal on a great boat, but a mediocre deal on a great boat is likely to end better than a great deal on a crappy boat. That almost always ends poorly!

[floatingkiwi]

If you can get a mechanic to do a leakdown test even better.
Yeah a leakdown test is usually done if the compression sucks and one is pinpointing the cause. No need for a leakdown if the compression is good.

[cccomander]

Good points. thanks. looking at it in the morning and I will post what I think. It definitely is a buyers market and I would not necessarily agree to this guy's price unless it is really nice (and maybe not even then). I looked at a boat last weekend and the broker practically begged me to make any offer. You know it must be a buyers market when a broker does that and doesn't even try to give you stuff like "there's a lot of interest in this boat," or "I've got someone coming to look at it tomorrow." It it wasnt a bad boat--I may go back to that one. If I love this one no doubt I will get a survey including compression tests. Not familiar with a leakdown test but I will ask the surveyor.

[Lew Barrett]

Leakdown test tells you a bit more; can uncover the source of lack of compression in addition to the fact that the compression is just low.

Here's a simple leakdown test FAQ (http://www.geocities.com/dsmgrrrl/FAQs/leakdown.htm). The basics are that compressed air is injected into a cylinder at TDC. If the air escapes through the rings, you'll hear it at the crankcase...thus bad rings. If it escapes through the closed exhaust valve, you'll detect it at the tailpipe. A compression test will tell you the differences (expressed as PSI) between the various cylinders. Both are handy to have. Often they will do a compression test first, then a leakdown as a diagnostic.

[cccomander]

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/picforweb1.jpg

[cccomander]

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/picforweb2.jpg

[cccomander]

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/picforweb3.jpg

[Larks]

Looks nice CC, what's the verdict?

[cccomander]

Sigh. Not nearly as good as the pictures indicate. Several leaks in the roof and deck. (was rainy this morning). It has barely been used in ten years. I think he was trying to mask the fact that he really hasnt done anything with this boat since he got it 11 years ago. So, frankly, I assume the engines are either junk or will need a fair amount of work. The head has never been used so I assume will need to be replaced. Same with fresh water system. No electronics. The AC wiring looked sketchy and the DC little better. On the positive side, there were only a few soft spots in the wood (all in the roof or just under the deck) and the bottom was in really good shape. It has a nice trailer that supports the keel and bottom ( I was worried the keel wasn't supported). Keel and stem solid. Needs scraping and new paint or new varnish on all surfaces--top and bottom and in and out of cabin and decks. I would not pay 14K for it. I'll post more pictures Sunday night. It really makes it hard to evaluate when it has been out of use for so long--I think I have to assume that I need to work on everything on the boat.

[cccomander]

No-no broker involved (the broker I mentioned was on another boat). I may not even get it surveyed because it needs so much work that it isn't worth anywhere near what he is asking and his attitude doesn't seem to indicate a willingness to cut the price significantly. But this boat is a very doable project. Like I said, bottom appears to be pretty good. Frames, keel, stem, garboards, floors, etc all look good. No rot or softness in any of those places. But still needs a lot of work. And from what this guys says, I would estimate the engines have no more than 10 hours in the past ten years. Oh, look at my prior posts--he gave me the ole "I got somone coming to look next week--I can't hold it . . .."

[botebum]

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss151/cmeke0870/picforweb3.jpgThis is NC and everyone here seems to think their s**t is made of gold. The Confederate soldier cartoon indicates that the seller is a moron anyway. Unless someone gives him what he's asking he'll just go on thinking that his boat is increasing in value and next year he'll be asking even more without doing a thing to it. Typical "Southern Dumbass" attitude.

Doug

[Lew Barrett]

You gotta love a plain speaking guy!

This is so often the case with boats (that the pictures lie) that one could make a living betting the peanut gallery about the real cost and value of the thing.

If the boat had been sweet with tight finishes and good mechanicals, it would have been a good deal at 14K. As a fixer, it's worth a good laugh. A boat in the middle is a troublesome proposition. The owner thinks there's still value in the proposition because it still has some paint and varnish and the motors may turn over and what the hell, there is a toilet after all. It's not like it's not there!

But the buyer gets to fix everything, just as if the boat was a gray wreck. Pass and look for something better. Lots of fish in the sea.

[cccomander]

Yes--sigh. Probably good advice. I really do like this model and size--could be a really cute boat. I may make an offer and see what happens. Looks like he listed it back in January--maybe he's ready to deal despite what he says about the price being firm. There are lots of boats out there and very few buyers.

[katiedobe]

It looks nice but I would listen to Lew, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to classic motor cruisers.
How do you guys afford the gas/diesel is beyond me. That photo in the brochure of all that weight up to speed just made my wallet shudder in fear.

By the way CC where do you hail from? Kinda nice to see that along the right side of the posts. It answers a lot of questions real quick.

[wooden 'ed]

I say (and I know a tiny bit more about $ than the minute amount I know about wooden boats) that you should offer $2,500, suggest that he counter, and pay no more than $4K. She's a sweet-looking little number in the photos, very stylish in that pre-Jetsons sort of dawning-of-the-jet-age way that Chris Craft mastered, and she will present you -- even if the wood's good, as you say -- with manifold opportunities to pour cash and love (or time) into it as you become acquainted.

As a point of reference: My dear departed parents spent $10,500 on a 1960 36' CC Sea Skiff (lapstrake IIRC) in 1971. That boat at that time required no extraordinary efforts, altho she had a brutal overheating problem resulting from improperly sourced exhaust hose, which took a few years to discover.

In 1976 they sold her for $14,500, which they leveraged to buy a 1966 38' commander (with flybridge) made of fiberglass (!). (I still own this boat, btw, she was repowered in 1986 [gas]. I would be happy to sell her for, basically, $1. She's lying in South San Francisco. Any takers?)

[nextse7en]

For a buck?

I'll take a ship made of termites for a buck.

[cccomander]

this guy just doesnt understand that the market is bad and hi boat needs a lot of work. he thinks a little sanding and varnish and she's a show boat. i told him how i viewed the boat and said i would be interested at a ower price and he reiterated he was firm. so, i'll move on with my search

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

Sounds like a good decision - albeit a tough one.