What Grade and Cut White Oak For Keel

[JohnPlatou]

I hve much better idea what it is going to take to replace the inner keel in my 17 '1960 Cruisers 202.

But what grade of white oak do I need to search for rift cut, rorary cut, or ????

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

You want all heart wood white oak, no sapwood allowed. Quarter sawn is great stuff. Grade should be one without knots, straight grained.

[Jack Heinlen]

While quartersawn from a large tree would be ideal I'll bet the stock coming out of the boat is plain sawn, and good plain sawn will work fine. As Andreas said, no sap, and I'll add, no heart ie the center of the tree.

For such an important piece, considering where you live(I don't think there's white oak in TX)it would be worth talking to a reputable dealer who knows boat lumber. Explain what you are doing and they will send you a good piece of stock. It will cost you a little more, but it will be worth it.

P.S. Just a little edumacation for ya. There are two basic ways a log is sawn. 'Plain' means the log is set on the saw carraige and sawn, one board after another, as if you were making sliced bread the long way. It results in a variety of orientations of the grain. 'Quarter' is a lot more work and involves first quartering the log and then sawing perpendicular to the rings. You end up with boards that have all the rings oriented perpendicular to the the face. It is more stable that way, ie less warping.

'Rotary' isn't really sawing at all, but a process where they use a sharp knife blade and turn the log against it, for veneer.

I'll bet the keel coming out of your boat was plain sawn. In anycase, plain sawn will work fine.

[ 10-12-2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Just so that you are aware, the bind you are in is that most hardwood is sold based on appearance, whereas what matters to you is strength, and while the best appearance grades will usually also be good strength-wise, this is not necessarily the case. This is why you either need to pick out the wood yourself or have someone who understands your needs pick it out. As others have noted, you need a straight-grained piece with only very small, tight knots (if there are any knots) and only heartwood. How big a piece are you looking for? If you don't need a really big piece you may be able to find something suitable at your local hardwood lumber dealer.

[Venchka]

I don't know where Crosby is, but if Harris means Harris County, try to contact Jim at Texas Mesuite Lumber. He has a band mill and runs across all kinds of wood. What you don't want is somebody slipping you some red oak. Stay away from that stuff. Live oak is in the white oak family and could work. Lots of live oaks around SE Texas. If it won't make your boat too heavy, Osage Orange is plenty strong and hard. Also, there are strong, hard rot resistant tropical woods making their way into the country. You would have to research the wood before trusting it. If all else fails, go to one of the reputable national boat lumber dealers. Flounder Bay, Edensaw, M. L. Condon, etc.

For a place with all the water we have on the Gulf Coast, we live in a boat lumber wasteland.

LIGHTBULB! Contact the maritime museuem in Galveston. They build/maintain wood boats. They may know of a local source.

Good boat lumber is where you find it. Be prepared to pay the freight to get it.

Texas Mesquite Lumber (http://www.texasmesquitelumber.com/index.html)

EMAIL: jim@texasmesquitelumber.com

Good luck!

[Bob Smalser]

Good comments...I would only add that W.Oak doesn't move as much as some...you can live w/o a quartersawn piece for the keel so long as it has tight, small knots and no sapwood.

Butter all exposed knots with a 4-1 boatbuilder epoxy and heat to 115 degrees with a heat gun....then touch with a belt sander when cured. Will seal and stabilize them....but still try to cut the board so as to keep them out of the joints.

[ 10-12-2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[JohnPlatou]

We have a very good lumber yard in Houston, Hardwood Lumber in the center of Houston Heights area. Been doing business with them a long time. They allow hand picking, and have every wood I've ever heard of, and many I never have.

They sell what they call rift cut white oak. It is very straight gained and knot free. A little expensive at about $6 a BF, but thats what I think I need. Does this sound right?

[Venchka]

Perfect. Pick out the good stuff. Get all you have room to store. You never know if you'll ever see good wood again at that price. The price is ok allowing for transportation from who knows where.

Thanks! Now I know where to get good white oak closer than New England.

[Jack Heinlen]

Ah, the complexities of lumber.

'Rift' is another word for 'plain'. The problem, and you can make as little or as much of it as you like, the wood will work, is that it is almost assuredly kiln dried. The best wood for this application would be air dried. Almost all commercial kilning really heats things up, and it makes the wood different, "cooks the life out of it" is a common refrain of boatbuilders. Basically, driving the moisture out of the wood so rapidly bursts cell walls and makes the wood stringy, less supple to the hand and eye, and less good for boats.

Air dried white oak is a sight to behold. LF Hershoffe(sp) once likened it to laminated cat gut. The difference between it and red oak is striking. Be sure you are buying WO, kilned or not.

Since you aren't re-building the boat to last for the ages, KD would work. Before you buy at that price call around some of the wood dealers in the back of WB and see what they could do for you. This was twenty years ago, but I once bought a load of WO right off the saw in southern Maine for 45 cents a board foot. It wasn't prime stock, but for my use, reframing a sailboat, it was fine.

I'd really call around before buying at the local dealer.

[ 10-12-2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Bob Smalser]

"Rift" sawn around here means cut on "one live edge"...which is much closer to true quartersawn than "flat", "thru-and-thru" or "plain" sawn. The local terms can drive you nuts.

If it's kiln dried, ask them what the moisture content is - they will have a meter. If it's 10 pct or above, you'll be OK if it wasn't "case hardened" by kilning too fast (more common in 6 pct M/C flooring). Look for isolated patches of discoloration and checks, and rip a scrap down the middle if you can to check for same, along with warping as it's cut. Case hardening means the M/C is lower on the outside than inside...and with that condition can come the "hot spots" that wreck the inside of the board with checking...the lignin has been cooked to death.

Your boat wood will eventually stabilize to 20pct M/C in the air, so it's best to build at that M/C.

If you buy kilned stock that's lower than that, stack and sticker level outside under cover til it stabilizes...if you build with it right away outside or in an unheated shed it will swell a bit.

Holler if you want instruction on testing M/C using a powder or postage scale and your kitchen oven.

[Jack Heinlen]

I may be way wrong equating 'rift' with 'plain'.

A site, though a good explaination of 'rift' is missing.

http://royalcraftsman.com/quartered-rift.htm

I think 'rift' refers to boards that come out of 'plain' sawn stock but have the rings mostly perpendicular to the face, which such sawing does make. In other words boards that are plain sawn but close to the center of the log, so they have a lot of quartersawn wood in them. But I don't know.

[ 10-13-2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Jack Heinlen]

But this is esoterica, and doesn't answer John's need.

As I said in my original post, if I were John I would call a dealer who specializes in boat timber and explain what I was doing. They, for a price(but we're only talking a single piece) will send him a suitable chunk of WO.

If I lived in Ohio I would call the forest service people and find out who is sawing WO, but John doesn't live in Ohio.

[Bruce Hooke]

According to Understanding Wood by R. Bruce Hoadley, which is my "bible" on such issues, "rift grain" means:


The surface or figure produced by a longitudinal plane of cut which is at approximately 45 degrees to both rays and growth rings. The term is used especially for white oak with its large rays...Based on that I would conclude that "rift sawn" means "cut to show 'rift grain'" (as it is defined above). However, given the looseness with which some terms are used it might be worth checking with the lumber yard to make sure this is what they mean. If this is what they mean then we are talking about wood that is halfway between quartersawn and flat sawn. This is not ideal, but I bet you could find something in the pile that leans towards the quarter sawn direction. Note: The reason white oak is cut this way is because it produces a very nice figure on the surface of the wood -- so it is purely an appearance cut.

I would not be overly worried about things like case hardening and defects resulting from too fast kiln drying. Certainly, if you find signs of case hardening or other problems when you cut into the board then you should discard the board, but no lumberyard that specializes in supplying furniture grade lumber will survive for long if it routinely sells case hardened or poorly dried lumber.

IMOOP the stuff about air dried lumber having more life than kiln dried lumber is way overblown, especially when you are talking about an inner keel, which presumably will not be bent into a tight curve (as steam bent frames are). Certainly, whatever wood you get should be stored in the boat shed or another covered outdoor location in a way that allows air to circulate around it for a few weeks before you use it -- to allow it to adjust to the ambient outdoor moisture content. This is always a good idea whether you are building boats or furniture (of course with furniture you store the wood indoors to allow it to adjust to indoor moisture levels.

So, if it were me, I would head over to the place you talked about in Houston and look through their pile for a nice piece with straight grain and ideally something more towards quartersawn than flat sawn. I don't think the difference between what you could find there and what someplace that specializes in boat lumber could send you would be big enough to justify the shipping costs and the hassle. Remember, we are talking about an inner keel here, which, as I understand this term, means this piece of wood will not be part of the watertight shell of the hull, so the piece of wood should be in dry air rather than having water on one side and a bit of movement with changes in moisture content should not be an issue.

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

John's restoring a 16 foot long outboard motor boat, not the Mayflower. I just measured the keelson on a '59 Thompson Sea Lancer 17 footer (basically the exact same design) and the keelson measures 1 1/8" x 4+" actual x about 12 feet in length.

[Venchka]

There you go!

After bothering a lot of very nice people, I came to the realization that unless you plan to buy a WHOLE LOT of lumber, trucking from far off places doesn't compute. My definition of the perfect boat building lumber is the same as real estate: location, location, location. If the wood is in the same area code as the boat building site, it's PERFECT! If it also happens to be the right or an equal substitute species, then it's more perfect.

[George Roberts]

Andreas Jordahl Rhude ---

Could not agree any more.

[Bob Smalser]

I wouldn't blow off moisture content....even in a small project.

If you immediately use a 2X8 board kilned for cabinets at 10pct M/C....it will expand by an eighth to a quarter inch by the time it stabilizes to 20pct in your boat shed.

What'll that make your joints look like?

Source: Conversion and Seasoning of Wood, Wm H. Brown, F.I.W.Sc., A.M.I.W.M., Linden Publishing

[Jack Heinlen]

Well, this is an interesting discussion. I agree wholeheartedly with Bob that you need to let KD stock equilibrate before you shape it.

I confess never having ordered wood through a distant company. I've been lucky to live close to small sawyers and good small dealers. I still think finding a piece of airdried would be worth the effort for this. Afterall, the reason John is replacing it is because it's rotted, so the best piece he can find... How to go about that I'm not sure.

[Bruce Hooke]

Bob and Jack,

I don't think anyone is suggesting that moisture content should be ignored, just that locally available kiln-dried stock can be used if it is allowed to equilabrate with outdoor moisture levels. However, it is probably worth your having repeated this just to make sure that this point isn't ignored.

I have to say that I don't see what difference getting air-dried stock will make to the rot resistance of the piece of wood once it is in the boat. I see no reason why a quality piece of kiln dried white oak would not be every bit as rot resistant as air-dried white oak.

- Bruce

[Jack Heinlen]

You may well be right Bruce. I've never seen a study of the two. KD just feels different to me, so it's likely a prejudice.

[JohnPlatou]

I guess Im lucky to live in Houston where humitity is almost 95% year round. When I build cabinets you have to bring the wood inside for sevral weeks or you do get cracks. The lumber company stores all wood in sheds outside in 95% humitity and 95F 6 months a year the other times its 60 to 75 and 95% humitity. Based on this I bet moisture content is 20%. when I go to pick out the keel material I'll ask if we can measure Moisture content. I'll report back on findings.

Thanks for all the input, I've learned alot.

[kg]

John,

Rift cut white oak is very stable as much so as quarter sawn. Rift sawn is usually cut just off the true quarter angle. Most quarter sawn white oak is actually sold as "rift and quartered" together as they are both very stable compared to plain sawn lumber. Another advantage of buying this cut is that they are generally produced from larger logs which is also more desirable for stabiltiy. Just look at the ends of the board and pick out the ones that have even vertical grain. Also your idea of the boards having a higher moisture content in your humid area is good. Lumber will pick up moisture and equalize to 14% over time at 85degrees F and 75% R.H. At 50degrees F and 90% R.H.
it will equalize to 21% MC! We have many sources for Rift and quartered lumber up here in Indiana. We cut timber and our better White oak logs go into making rift and quartered lumber.

[Siebert]

FWIW,
I live in Virginia and regularily get fresh cut WO from choice logs, plain sawn 4/4. 6/4 and 8/4 for less than $2/BF directly from the saw mill. For this I get rough cut, with the sap wood removed in varying widths from 4 to 14 inches. I buy lots of it and air dry it in a shed for 6 mo if I am boat building with it, or up to three years for other stuff. Even with careful stacking and painting the ends, I figure I loose about 5 to 25% to warping and checking, and another 25% to waste because of insect damage, etc.

I use a moisture meter to decide when it has sat enough, usually 15 - 18 percent for boat work, 12 to 18 percent for other stuff. Wood stored outside under cover at my house seldom gets dryer than that. For cabinet work, I bring it inside the house where my shop is for a few months before working it which gets it down another percent or two.

As others indicate, WO is a great wood to work with. It does shrink and move alot as it dries, which should be planned for during boat building.

Not that any of you all don't already know, but just incase, wood shrinks and swells almost not at all length wise, and once wood is dried, (particularily kiln dried) it never fully expands to its original radial demensions.

Steve