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ishmael
09-18-2009, 06:28 PM
I was down to the river this evening. There's a pretty little boat ramp in Orrington, and the evening is gorgeous. Sunny, warm, and a nice breeze. I was on my way back from town and pulled in for a few minutes. I'm just getting back in the truck when a town Sherriff pulls in. I don't know about you, but when a cop car pulls up I always have a moment of "Oh crap, what's wrong now?" I've never been much of a scofflaw, so I figure it's in the genes.

Anyway, he pulls in next to me, headed the other way so he can speak with me. He was just bird dogging. Friday evening, and apparently that ramp has a bit of a reputation as a hang out for teenagers drinking and such. A nice guy, about my age, maybe a bit younger. With the department ten years. We just chewed the fat, exchanged names, and then he was off. I followed him out, and got to thinking about what a life that must be, to be the arm of the law.

botebum
09-18-2009, 06:31 PM
Prolly a good thing you weren't busy trying to save some teenage homeless girls by chatting them up before some dude stabbed them, huh?

Tylerdurden
09-18-2009, 06:39 PM
If you gave him your name chances are he ran you. They run everybody.

ishmael
09-18-2009, 06:47 PM
Mark,

He could have run me off my plate. Probably did, just doing his job. Fine by me, though a boring read for him.

ron ll
09-18-2009, 08:31 PM
There are a lot of good ones out there. A few bad ones as in any professio, but a lot of good ones.

oznabrag
09-18-2009, 08:56 PM
Oh no! It's no country for old men!

Captain Blight
09-18-2009, 10:13 PM
the young in one another's arms
The lovers at their songs....


I'm generally not a fan. They make me want to tweak their noses. I think what gets me is that I daresn't interact with them normally; I have to show obeisance or it gets their hackles up. Which put mine up. Which, unfortunately, has led to me in cuffs with a boot on the back of my neck and my eyes burning and a pistol grinding into the back of my skull. Because I wouldn't "show respect," as the officer put it. Dude, if this was to teach me a lesson, what do you think I really learned here? Really?

I do know a few good cops.

Saltiguy
09-19-2009, 08:03 AM
Here's one for ya - happened just the other day near my home.
2 little kids playing in the front yard, playing with cap guns, running around, "shooting" eachother. A car drives by and the kids "shoot" at the car. Guy backs up, stops, gets out of the car and takes the guns away from the little kids. Mom comes out of the house, and admonishes the guy, who is dressed in tank-top and flip-flops. The guy tells the Mom he is a Federal Immigration Officer, etc. Mom orders him off her property. Dad, who has been inside the house, hears Mom screaming, comes out of the house and tells the guy to leave NOW, or he'll kick his ass. Guy leaves, drives around the corner, calls 911, the cops come and what do you think......................?
They arrest the guy for threatening a Federal Law Officer, take him to jail where he stayed for 4 days before he could make bail. Now he's facing serious charges and will probably have to spend a ton of dough (which he doesn't have) on a lawyer.
This stuff makes my blood boil.

Tylerdurden
09-19-2009, 08:11 AM
I have no problem respecting a police officer if they actually risked something. Nine times out of ten they are more concerned with their own safety than anyone else's. No one forced them to take the job but they act and talk like they are saviors of the relm. One just has to look at Columbine where kids were dying but they waited and waited until everything was in place to ensure their safety. Christ you took a job you knew would put you in harms way but now its we can't go in there as there is to much risk without overwhelming firepower.

Fire fighters get my respect long before law enforcement.

stevebaby
09-19-2009, 08:40 AM
Here's one for ya - happened just the other day near my home.
2 little kids playing in the front yard, playing with cap guns, running around, "shooting" eachother. A car drives by and the kids "shoot" at the car. Guy backs up, stops, gets out of the car and takes the guns away from the little kids. Mom comes out of the house, and admonishes the guy, who is dressed in tank-top and flip-flops. The guy tells the Mom he is a Federal Immigration Officer, etc. Mom orders him off her property. Dad, who has been inside the house, hears Mom screaming, comes out of the house and tells the guy to leave NOW, or he'll kick his ass. Guy leaves, drives around the corner, calls 911, the cops come and what do you think......................?
They arrest the guy for threatening a Federal Law Officer, take him to jail where he stayed for 4 days before he could make bail. Now he's facing serious charges and will probably have to spend a ton of dough (which he doesn't have) on a lawyer.
This stuff makes my blood boil.You should be thankful that you have more Freedom than any other country in the world. Where's your Patriotism?

Couldn't happen in Australia, even though we're tyrannised by our Socialist government and our guns were taken away from us etc. etc.
Simply...could not and would not ever happen here.
And just to avoid any confusion here...my first sentence was intended as irony...and your anger is entirely justified.

Tylerdurden
09-19-2009, 08:44 AM
A cops own words. Nuff said.




And BTW, whether you like it it or not, you will listen to a cop, and you'll do exactly what he/she tells you to do, because as my old Law Professor, a native of Philadelphia, used to say,"The Law is whatever the man/woman with the badge says it is."
And when that Officer, sworn to protect the community from the likes of you, tells you to get on your knees, lick his boots and kiss his fat arse...you'll do just that, just like you did when you volunteered for exactly the same treatment in the US Navy.
Some people are born to serve and obey orders, and you're one of them.

stevebaby
09-19-2009, 08:53 AM
I have no problem respecting a police officer if they actually risked something. Nine times out of ten they are more concerned with their own safety than anyone else's. No one forced them to take the job but they act and talk like they are saviors of the relm. One just has to look at Columbine where kids were dying but they waited and waited until everything was in place to ensure their safety. Christ you took a job you knew would put you in harms way but now its we can't go in there as there is to much risk without overwhelming firepower.

Fire fighters get my respect long before law enforcement.Nope. They take a job where the only reward is a regular paycheck, for pretty much the same reasons that anyone else takes a job.
The first principle of a First Aid course, worldwide, is that you first ensure your own safety, and the first responsibility of the skipper of a vessel is to ensure the safety of his own crew. Unless that safety is first ensured, the effectiveness of any rescue attempt will be compromised. Fire fighters and Ambulance crews work the same way BTW.
Very obviously...you have no experience and no knowledge about this. As usual.

ishmael
09-19-2009, 02:42 PM
I wasn't saying there aren't abuses. When you give power like that to a person there are going to be abuses. Frankly, I've rarely encountered them. The one time I had a bad encounter with the law I deserved almost everything I got. I say almost because the cop took my glasses away. Unnecessary, a tactic I found abusive. People who are not seriously myopic wouldn't understand, but that was abusive. I gave the cop hell for it, and he just sat there and laughed. I couldn't negotiate with someone I couldn't see.

He told me it was policy, so people didn't hurt themselves when in custody. Like I was going to take my wire rimmed glasses and slit my wrists when in custody at the Orange police station on an OUI charge? That, "Well, it's just policy" is perhaps the greatest failing.

But this was about a pleasant encounter. I didn't mind, even liked, that this guy was keeping an eye on things. I was just down there to take the evening air, and he just drove down because it was on his rounds. We had a pleasant chat.

2MeterTroll
09-19-2009, 02:56 PM
glad you had a good experiance Ish.
thats not my experiance... Ever.
don't matter if i keep my mouth shut or say hello soon it turns into some little dude with a badge trying to play domination games. the little guys cant even walk by me with out some kind of act.

but i am not allowed to respond to it in the manner it should be dealt with, so i just stand there and ignore them or let Erica deal with them.

AussieBarney
09-19-2009, 04:18 PM
Here in the beautiful state of NSW there are the two sorts of coppers. The good ones, easy to get along with. And then the other sort, the power trippng A**holes who just want annoy people. I reckon they are be the same all over. they gotta be there. The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

Tylerdurden
09-19-2009, 06:08 PM
I guess its a good thing BabySteve got kicked off the force, that one less power tripper you don't have to worry about.:D

stevebaby
09-19-2009, 06:41 PM
I guess its a good thing BabySteve got kicked off the force, that one less power tripper you don't have to worry about.:DNo State Troopers would ever have to slap you to make you talk ,would they?
More likely, they'd slap you to make you shut up.

BarnacleGrim
09-19-2009, 06:43 PM
Nope. They take a job where the only reward is a regular paycheck, for pretty much the same reasons that anyone else takes a job.
The first principle of a First Aid course, worldwide, is that you first ensure your own safety, and the first responsibility of the skipper of a vessel is to ensure the safety of his own crew. Unless that safety is first ensured, the effectiveness of any rescue attempt will be compromised. Fire fighters and Ambulance crews work the same way BTW.
Very obviously...you have no experience and no knowledge about this. As usual.
I'm not so sure. I took a fire fighting course last week, and we were taught to always weight the risks to the benefits. They told us that we should risk serious injury if it means we can save a life. That "First principle of First Aid" is just to keep regular people from doing something stupid and adding themselves to the list of victims for when the professionals arrive.

Tylerdurden
09-20-2009, 02:37 AM
Other than the power tripping wanabe above this is mandatory viewing for people I care about.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865#

Trust me, as an antagonist and freedom fighter this is the only safe way to deal.

stevebaby
09-20-2009, 04:10 AM
I'm not so sure. I took a fire fighting course last week, and we were taught to always weight the risks to the benefits. They told us that we should risk serious injury if it means we can save a life. That "First principle of First Aid" is just to keep regular people from doing something stupid and adding themselves to the list of victims for when the professionals arrive.That's true, but only up to a point. If you become seriously injured while attempting a rescue, someone then has to use precious resources torescue you, no?
Every situation is different though.

JimJ
09-20-2009, 06:24 AM
If you become seriously injured while attempting a rescue, someone then has to use precious resources to rescue you, no?
That is why in warfare, you cause casualties not fatalities.'

As for the law enforcement officers, just think why they are there. If everybody did the right thing, we would need to have law enforcement officers.

If you ever need them you will be grateful that they are there.

Paul Pless
09-20-2009, 07:13 AM
That's true, but only up to a point. If you become seriously injured while attempting a rescue, someone then has to use precious resources torescue you, no?
Every situation is different though.Yeah... I think Mark has it pretty right about Columbine though. The police were completely unprepared and ineffective there.

BarnacleGrim
09-20-2009, 07:27 AM
When you are a fire fighter it's always about maximum rescue performance. It's always worth loosing your ears and eyebrows if you can save your buddy. Both as a professional and a human being. The "first rule of first aid" gives them way less credit than they deserve. The course I took was truly humbling.

The kids in the suburbs who are setting fire to cars and throwing rocks at the fire fighters should be forced to take the same three-day course I took. It's probably cheaper than juvenile hall, and maybe they'll learn something useful and start showing a little respect.

Bruce Taylor
09-20-2009, 08:16 AM
Other than the power tripping wanabe above this is mandatory viewing for people I care about.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865#

A very interesting and useful link.

It's relevant for Canadians, as well, though I'd wager most of us can't name the sections of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that protect against self-incrimination. I had to look it up: the sections are 11(c) and 13.

Nicholas Carey
09-21-2009, 01:05 AM
Other than the power tripping wanabe above this is mandatory viewing for people I care about.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865#

Trust me, as an antagonist and freedom fighter this is the only safe way to deal.Good Lecture.

Years ago, a good friend who I've know since childhood gave me some good advice. He happens to be a criminal defence attorney. In the course of a conversation, the subject of the police and random DUI/breathalyzer stops came up.

His advice on what to do if stopped was pretty simple. It boils down to, regardless of the nature of the stop, making the interaction with the police as brief as possible, giving them the minimal information required by law and getting attorneys involved as fast as possible. So, what he told me was...

1. Give them your driver's licence and registration. That's required.

2. Answer no questions. If asked anything, simply answer, "I'm sorry, but my attorney has instructed me not to answer any questions without his being present." All you can do in talking to the police is provide them with incriminating information with which to convict you.

3. Refuse any/all field sobriety tests, including field-administered breathalyzer tests. The only test that counts is the breathalyzer test at the police station on the [supposedly certified] breathalyzer. That one you can't refuse, without losing your licence and giving the police prima facia evidence of guilt. All the field sobriety tests do is provide the police with evidence with which to convict you.

4. At the earliest opportunity, force the issue by asking the officer whether you are free to go or are under arrest. Up until this point, it's just a traffic stop and a [friendly] chat. If you're free to go, the encounter is over and off you go. If they arrest you, the rules change. They are required to mirandize you by informing you of your rights and once you request an attorney, the encounter is largely done.

['course, if you actually are 3 sheets to the wind, you won't remember this and are likely chatty as hell, so... :D]

The Bigfella
09-21-2009, 01:34 AM
The way you look at a police officer is the first clue you give them. Your body language is a powerful signal.

Back when I was developing a customer service strategy for a significant police force (a force about 1/3 the size of the NYPD) I twigged to how to segment police customers whilst riding in a police car one Saturday morning at about 2am. A group of people walking through town spotted us in the car and their heads literally snapped around and they were staring at us. It was pretty obvious that our presence was an issue for them. It wouldn't be for the vast majority of the population.... for whom our presence would have been reassuring, rather than concerning. Their reaction didn't mean they'd done anything wrong... but it sure as hell acted as a "check us out" beacon.

As for what Nicholas is suggesting... yeah, maybe - but to play that line might mean that if you have something the cop was going to ignore, like a broken tail light, or that you'd just done a turn without indicating, or whatever... then you'll get done for it. Your attitude will determine their response. btw - check your local laws too - here, the fine & penalties for refusing a roadside breath test are higher than if you are found to be drunk - which is a damn good thing too.

switters
09-21-2009, 11:42 AM
Yeah... I think Mark has it pretty right about Columbine though. The police were completely unprepared and ineffective there.

The police are not obligated to "save" anyone.

Warren v. District of Columbia is one of the leading cases of this type. Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers."
The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [4] There are many similar cases with results to the same effect. [5]

Their training begins with how to protect themselves first.

Oh, and please do me a favor, the ignore feature is useless if everyone quotes what Mr. Baby is saying, please stop, thanks.

SMARTINSEN
09-21-2009, 12:17 PM
Lots of shades of grey here, and not all black and white.

Cops spend a significant percentage dealing with the dregs of the earth, and some of them, at least, become the persona that they are dealing with.

canoes
09-21-2009, 01:11 PM
Hi,
My brother,, really knows his rights and I am always surprised by his stories. He told me about being stopped at a road block,, the usual bla bla stuff. the officer askes,, sir do you have a vaild drivers license,, (a officers unique way of asking may I see it), my brother responds yes I do.

A very long and uncomfortable pause,,, by the officer (LOL), may I see it sir. Yes you may.

My brother always says to me "I am not doing anything wrong or breaking any law, they stopped me. Why should I let them try to intimidate me or do anything with out being asked direct questions.

Larry

stevebaby
09-21-2009, 01:55 PM
Their training begins with how to protect themselves first.

Oh, and please do me a favor, the ignore feature is useless if everyone quotes what Mr. Baby is saying, please stop, thanks.All emergency services have a legal obligation to their employees and they are all taught to protect themselves. I doubt you have any first-hand experience or knowledge about how police officers are trained.

paladin
09-21-2009, 07:22 PM
Three days ago I was stopped by a young officer here in the county on the way home from the clinic.
He asked If I knew why he stopped me, I said no...
He said I wasn't wearing a seat belt. I replied that in fact I was wearing a seat belt. He looked at the shoulder reel and saw it flat. I said if you want to open the door and look you can see that I'm wearing a seat belt...he did. He then said I must also wear the shoulder harness. I said I have read the particular law and there is no mention of a shoulder harness, it only says that seat belts must be worn.
He asked for the license....I asked which one...he gives me a strange look and I hand him a maryland,Oklahoma, Texas, Alaska and International license.....he looks them over and asked "why?"
I live in Maryland with a residence. I also own a residence in Oklahoma, business in Texas, resident of Alaska, and own a house in Thailand. If I spend 30 days anywhere each state requires a drivers license from that state.......
He sees the bandage on my arm, and asked about it...I told him....
When he handed back the drivers license he noted the chain on the mirror and an I.D. card/security clearance from Lockheed Martin, and the access card to DEA at Lorton. He remarked that he worked for Lockheed while going to college, so we chatted for a few minutes and then he left....nothing else was said about the shoulder harness.
(I did tell him it was bothering my arm quite a bit)

Tylerdurden
09-22-2009, 07:03 AM
Greg Williams a double amputee tased by the Merced PD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=texTZDk6wNs&feature=player_embedded

Horsecapt
09-22-2009, 08:39 AM
Here's a link to an interesting video. Watching it might alter one's perception on those who "protect and serve."

The Largest Street Gang in America 1 (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CAF935C17BBC6EAE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=FQSv88bdsbQ)

Tylerdurden
09-22-2009, 10:01 AM
Police Brutality: 14 yr old girl Tasered in the Head NM

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=7438

Penetrated her skull?

pefjr
09-22-2009, 10:07 AM
I do know a few good cops. Do yourself a favor, put your focus on those good ones instead.

Tylerdurden
09-22-2009, 10:11 AM
Do yourself a favor, put your focus on those good ones instead.

Yes, ignore the bad ones. I saw once that if you click your slippers three times they will go away.:D

pefjr
09-22-2009, 10:49 AM
Yes, ignore the bad ones. I saw once that if you click your slippers three times they will go away.:D
Self reflection might help you see why you attract such trouble.

pefjr
09-22-2009, 10:54 AM
Society would be better served if the good ones focused on the bad ones.
Where have you been? I needed a clerk a while back and couldn't find you.

Tylerdurden
09-22-2009, 10:58 AM
Self reflection might help you see why you attract such trouble.


I don't attract trouble, The message does and invariably those afraid of such information fear it because if made aware their honor would require them to act. Few will go down this path for at heart they are cowards and a smaller number just do not care for others or their children. Fewer still are happy with evil, abuse and pain as long as its inflicted on others. I don't know which category you fit into but I can venture a guess.

Yes there are good cops out there, Very few. Because most so called "good" ones ignore the corruption and abuse to save ones arse in retirement ignoring the greater issues.

Here is one good cop raising the alarm because he understood the oath he took and swore to uphold it.
Sheriff Richard Mack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYRfkXK13KM&feature=player_embedded#t=71

pefjr
09-22-2009, 12:20 PM
I don't know which category you fit into but I can venture a guess.

I don't have to guess with you, its written on all your posts. You focus on the negative, and everything else goes by unseen.

The Bigfella
09-22-2009, 03:43 PM
Oh, the old you don't care for your chilldren routine.

Last time you went there you went a bit over the top. Gunna keep it under control this time?

bobbys
09-22-2009, 04:00 PM
Good Lecture.

Years ago, a good friend who I've know since childhood gave me some good advice. He happens to be a criminal defence attorney. In the course of a conversation, the subject of the police and random DUI/breathalyzer stops came up.

His advice on what to do if stopped was pretty simple. It boils down to, regardless of the nature of the stop, making the interaction with the police as brief as possible, giving them the minimal information required by law and getting attorneys involved as fast as possible. So, what he told me was...

1. Give them your driver's licence and registration. That's required.

2. Answer no questions. If asked anything, simply answer, "I'm sorry, but my attorney has instructed me not to answer any questions without his being present." All you can do in talking to the police is provide them with incriminating information with which to convict you.

3. Refuse any/all field sobriety tests, including field-administered breathalyzer tests. The only test that counts is the breathalyzer test at the police station on the [supposedly certified] breathalyzer. That one you can't refuse, without losing your licence and giving the police prima facia evidence of guilt. All the field sobriety tests do is provide the police with evidence with which to convict you.

4. At the earliest opportunity, force the issue by asking the officer whether you are free to go or are under arrest. Up until this point, it's just a traffic stop and a [friendly] chat. If you're free to go, the encounter is over and off you go. If they arrest you, the rules change. They are required to mirandize you by informing you of your rights and once you request an attorney, the encounter is largely done.

['course, if you actually are 3 sheets to the wind, you won't remember this and are likely chatty as hell, so... :D].

I just have my wife drive as she never drinks,

If we get stopped i just sit in the back making fart noises and reference Barney Fife while screaming.

Justice? Justice???.

You coppers dont know what Justice Is!!!:D