Old Seagull for an outboard?

[DickB]

While putting our sailboat (Bolger Chebacco 20' and about 1500 lbs.) hull away for the season, thoughts turned to the eventual need for an outboard. The general parameters are 5hp and longshaft with a maximum speed of maybe 6 knots. The budget as always is slim and the need to study the unknown large: What do you think about the British Seagull as a primarily propulsion auxiliary? As I understand them, they're not recoil for starting, the gas tanks cannot accept a remote tank for refueling, no reverse (nor can you twist them 180 deg. to go back). Sounds like there will be times spent kneeling on the lazarette/mizzen mast area! But presumably they're affordable and dependable. I found someone selling one for $75 but it wasn't working (hey!), then found another with prices x5 or x6. Gaaaaa. (another website with used outboard prices puts the cost around $120-160....)A few years ago, in Papua New Guinea, the nationals sort of poked fun at my interest in Seagulls which were, around independence time ~1970s, almost gifts and today are thought vastly inferior to Yamahas--The Seagulls were for the then dominant outrigger wood canoes and the Yamahas for the now popular fiberglass monohulls. But to hold down the Chebacco transom, to get the becalmed going when going is a must(and tide or wind dictate), to get the timid and the budget driven to dock, what say you for outboards?

[dan-marques]

Hey, similar topic back about a week ago in Misc. Boat Related (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001466).

Divided opinions there.

You might be able to get some deals on Seagulls, because people who don't know might be looking to get rid of them - but in general, things that look like great bargains never are.

[Bob Smalser]

Only one Seagull model I know of has a reverse gear, which would be nice maneuvering in close quarters amidst bristol-finished yachts.

$950US for this one:

http://www.britishseagullshop.com/seagullsales4-6hp.html

[Venchka]

Hunt high. Hunt low. You have what, 6 months, before the next "Season"? Scour the countryside. Lay in ambush for a next to new 4-5-6 hp outboard. They are out there. Get you one. It will have reverse. I personally think 4hp with the lowest pitch prop you can get would be plenty unless other Chebacco owners say more HP's are needed.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
...$950US for this one:
$950.00US (ok, $986.00 w/3 year warranty) buys a brand new 4hp 4-stroke. Less than that for a new 2-stroke.

Outboard prices (http://www.defender.com/inflatables/page7.html)

[DickB]

Yes, it does seem that the price of the Seagull has reached upward into the realm of the collectible and out of the hands of those seeking a low cost outboard. The other thread had respondents claiming high noise, lots of oil in the air and on the water--these along with cost are factors.

[Mrleft8]

I got 2 for $35 last year at a yard sale (Yes...$35 for BOTH of them). One a long shaft, the other a standard shaft, but with the reverse and idle option... Nice! Look around, I bet their are others lying around in weeds, or garages that can be had for next to nothing. The thing about Seagulls is: People who know what they are think they're the cat's pajamas. People who don't know what they are, think they're old junk.

[Keith Wilson]

Some people really like Seagulls, and they do have serious mechanical charm. Don't buy one until you've heard one run, though. It doesn't have to be the same one you buy, but make sure you can put up with the noise. They're VERY LOUD. (I'd get a used Honda.)

[ahp]

And can your transom tolerate the vibration?

[Aramas]

Seagulls are a lot heavier than the disposables. On the other hand they'll run even if they look like a big nugget of iron ore.
If you're a 'fiddler' and you like the archaic styling, and don't mind the peculiarities then go for it. It will probably last you a lifetime.

[ion barnes]

I picked up an older 4 stroke Honda for a couple hundred, tank on top, sips fuel like from an eye dropper, quiet, no smoke, lots of pull for a 2hp, starts easily, and weighs a mere 35 pounds.

[Leon Steyns]

Please beware that there's a fundamental design difference between the high-pitch "regular" 2-stroke outboards and the British Seagulls. The latter are designed to push your boat at hull speed only!

I disagree about the smoke/noise: no less than the ordinary outboards. Get a post-1967 Seagull, which you can convert to 25:1 fuel mix. And - most important - stick to the operating instructions (see here (http://www.math.toronto.edu/almgren/fun/seagull.html)) and stay out of trouble.

Be sure to pick one suitable for your boat, it doesn't make any sense to put a Silver Century Plus on a dinghy or a small sailboat...

Also note that the forementioned Silver Century Plus will push a three ton boat at hull speed, while the nifty engine weighs a mere 37 lbs (17 kilos)!

Some must-see sites for Seagull info:
http://www.britishseagullshop.com/faq.html
http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/faq.htm

http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/images/seagull_man_2.gif

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[DickB]

There are more than a few Seagull fans out there! Thanks for your information and enthusiasm. Encouraging! And lots of useful websites too, some from guys wanting to garner profit from restored Seagulls. There's probably room for debate if not ear drum tests on what is noisey, and the same goes for fumes. Taking it as a whole, I'm thinking I'd like one! The objective of an o/b on a small sailboat is for infrequent but necessary use, so -- wouldn't it do even if a bit loud, followed by a hopefully small and insignificant cloud (ummmm, slight haze)? Now comes a task: finding one that is priced right, as in a garage sale, a tag sale, from someone who doesn't want it anymore.

[Keith Wilson]

One point about older 2-stroke engines, not just Seagulls, is that a substantial portion (1/4-1/3)of what's in the gas tank goes out the exhaust pipe unburned and ends up in the water. The volatile fractions of the gasoline evaporate, leaving the oil. Seagulls, particularly the 10:1 mix ones, are a bit worse than other old outboards in this respect, since they use more oil. Modern 2-strokes are much better, and 4-strokes are better yet.

[DickB]

What's the fuel spillage estimate at the revised 25:1 ratio?

[ishmael]

I think they're cool. They look cool and the idea of geared down, low pitch prop is cool.

As I understand it they were developed as a throw away motor for small landing craft in WWII.

They're cantankerous, by most accounts, though I think mechanical gremlins surmountable. They are noisy, no changing that. They are dirty. The best ratio mentioned for running was 25:1. My Nissan runs 50:1, and fourstroke motor is not going to put much into the water at all.

I have a 1960's vintage Raleigh three speed bicycle. It needs a new cable for the speed changer. I love it, but I wouldn't take it 'cross country. I put the Seagull in the same category.

[Jim Goodine]

At the risk of making some people a little angry, I'd like to ask why we're talking about things like acceptable pollution and noise levels?? I'm not a rich guy but when it came to buying an outboard, I only looked at 4 strokes. We're not on the water to try to earn a living by squeezing the last dollar out of our equipment. We're recreational boaters with a huge responsibility to take care of our waterways. Bite the bullet and buy a 4 stroke, take good care of it, and it will reward you with quiet, dependable, clean service. Not to mention that great feeling you get from doing right by Mother Nature. If you have a 2 stroke already, it is a different story but don't go out and buy a 2 stroke. That just inflates the price on something that I think has had its day and we should be happy to see them as wall decorations.

[ishmael]

Actually I would take my Raleigh three speed across country, with just a little study.

So get the seagull. You'll learn a bunch about two cycle outboards, if nothing else.

[Aramas]

For the amount of use an outboard would get, the pollution caused would be negligable - probably about on par with the crap that washes off people when swimming (sunscreen, oil etc.) A 747 pumps out more greasy crap in a millisecond than a Seagull outboard would produce in a lifetime. Imagine how much greasy crap falls into the oceans every year from planes - it would probably be in the order of millions of tons.
Unless you're Aamish, you produce tons of crap each year, much of which is toxic and ends up either in the rivers, the oceans or the groundwater. It's the height of hypocrisy and irresponsibilty to point the finger at occasional 2 stroke outboard use while continuing to generate incredible quantities of crap every day of your suburban consumerist life.
In my humble opinion, of course :cool:

[Jim Goodine]

And, of course Aramas,
I would counter that it is the height of irresponsibility not to do all you can reasonably do to reduce pollution. Just because you can't change the jets, doesn't mean 2 strokes are acceptable. In fact, some places have or are in the process of outlawing them. With all due respect, I do see that the pollution problem in this country may already be beyond us. By the way, I hope I'm not upsetting the readers of this great forum, but I do have very strong feelings on this. Jim

[Aramas]

Well let's not derail the thread. If environmentally responsible consumerism wasn't an oxymoron then you might have a point.

I'm not interested in salving my conscience with self delusion. If I recycled a Seagull I could reasonably expect it to last the rest of my life. If I bought a 4 stroke I would probably have to replace it eventually. Since I would inevitably use it as a yacht auxiluary and leave it on board, I doubt a japanese engine would last 5 years. Even replacing it once would negate any percieved environmental 'friendliness'. To manufacture and market an outboard makes more of a mess than running one for a lifetime.
Like I said - it's just hypocrisy. Holier-than-thou posturing. Before you look down your nose at someone with a 'dirty' 2 stroke, make sure you take a good look at the way they live. Your life could very well be far 'dirtier' than theirs. If they live in another country then you can bet on it.

[Leon Steyns]

As I understand it they were developed as a throw away motor for small landing craft in WWII.Actually, the first Marston Seagulls were produced in 1931. The 102 was mass-produced in WWII to support the landing troops. Some have been recovered years after the war, still boxed and ready to use... Read about it here (http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/history.htm).

A little word on pollution: if you take good care of the Seagull and stick to the operating instructions closely, pollution will be reduced to virtually zero. Keep a piece of cloth at hand when you soak the carburettor and shut down the fuel tap well before mooring = no spills!

Greets, Leon Steyns.

http://www.britishseagull.co.uk/graphics/logo-text.gif

[DickB]

Leon to the rescue! Jibe ho. Good helmsmanship there, Leon, and let me ask about the use of the Seagull in Europe. Do you see many in use? Is it perceived as a collectible antique or as a useful o/b for small sailboats? Are many available at reasonable rates? (NB: Mrleft8: yr email not functioning!)

[Zane Lewis]

My 2 cents worth. Just my experiance.
About 1985 My father inheritied his fathers Silver Centery Plus. (10:1 mix still) We used it to tow our H28 and on a 12 ft heavy dingy. Great motor reliable, accepts lots of abuse and had no problem with swimming or breathing salt water, Lots of thrust from that 11" 5 bladed prop. etc etc etc Also Noisy, Vibrates like craze at low revs, always greasy, and loves to drink petrol, not helped by a small fuel tank. About 2 ltrs per hour under high load which meant hourly refills over a hot motor!!!!!! at sea.
(Modern 15hp 4 str's use about 5-5.5 ltr / hour)

Anyway about 2 years back we got a 3.3hp Merc/Marina 2str with clutch and 180 deg reverse to go with the Inflatable we also got.
Uses almost no fuel, will plane the inflatable 1 up, is clean for when we put it into the sail locker, and is quiet.

End result the Seagull has not been used for 2 years!! what does that tell you.
(Not for Sale though) It still has a place for heavy work like draging mooring chains and mooring weights suspended under the heavy dingy.

PS re 4 strokes. They may not uses oil in the engine but they do require crank case oil changes. For many people who only do linited running a 2 str will be cheaper and better for the environment. Different story for comerical operators though.

[Leon Steyns]

Dick,

I don't see many Seagulls around here. But at least one in every marina... Mostly the Featherweights or Forty Plus (like the ones I have), invariably all working motors. More often than not they sit on a transom as an emergency engine. Pricing varies widely, from €600.00 to €25.00 (the later intended for parts).

As Zane shows, many are carefully kept by their owners and used for serious work. It's just not suitable for racing... or is it? See this site for Racing Seagulls: Racing Seagulls! (http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/racing_seagulls!.htm).

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[Venchka]

I guess $900 for a 5hp 4-stroke is too much?

From the HensNest Group over at Yahoo! Groups:

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:47:54 -0000
From: "bayhen03" <whitedove@barney.starfishnet.com>
Subject: Re: Bay Hen outboard motor

...I have a 2000 Nissan 5 HP 4-stroke, short-shaft, F-N-R gears, with probably less than 10 hours on it for sale for $900, including 3 gallon plastic tank and motor stand and cover. This is basically the same motor sold as a Mercury by West Marine, where it would be about $1300.

As noted by others, this is a fairly heavy motor at about 54 lbs., Motor is easy starting, quiet, economical and smokeless, located in eastern NC,
just below Morehead City.

[Bob Smalser]

Sure enuf....I poke fun at Seagull and Lucas and what do I wind up with on the unfinished Hartley 14 project I bought at auction last week?

A crusty Seagull!

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2595357/34836270.jpg

1970 40 Plus 3hp. Was put in the water only a few times - salt water - for sea trials in 1972...was put away wet...and hadn't been run since. Garaged, tho....was surprised it wasn't stuck....probably all that oil. Cleaned the plug, fuel tank and float bowl, checked the jet to make sure it was free, removed the starter pulley and filed/gaped the points, replaced a broken prop spring, added fresh 10:1....

...and she started on pull #3...Ra-ah-ah-ah-ah!

Two speeds - fast and faster.....both with eyecatching clouds of blue smoke.

Not a pleasant sound...but I guess I'll get used to it. Thoughtful design, tho. And my Craftsman 6pt metrics seem to work on the Whitworth fasteners in a pinch.

[ 10-01-2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[DickB]

Bob,

From the Yahoo group on Bolger's designs comes this info from one member with direct personal experience on (incorrectly)using a Seagull:

tongue.gif You want to shut the motor off before refueling, if you spill while it
is running it will catch fire, the residue from the fire extinguisher
you use to put the fire out will get in the fuel tank through the open
cap through which you were pouring the fuel when it caught fire. This
residue will make the engine quit just when a tug and barge wants to
share the small channel you were motoring down. I know all this for a fact.
tongue.gif

So you'll have a good time but be careful, right?

[Bob Smalser]

For the record to aid someone who may wind up with an old one like mine:

Get a proper shop manual immediately.......operators and parts manuals have
loads of editorials 'bout those incompetents who hate Seagulls but zero diagrams of either how the cooling system works or even a parts blowup for
the shaft unit....and the water jacket will likely be clogged with rusty salt and seaweed like mine was.

I had to dribble a quarter cup of brick-clearer's Muriatic Acid into the inverted water outlet at the corner of the head followed by a high-pressure hose to rinse and running it sans prop in a water barrel for 20 minutes...that acid will ruin the head gasket if not flushed quickly.

And don't even think about removing the head....the head bolts run thru into the raw water jacket...most probably rusty enuf to twist off leaving a stub in there.

Clean fuel tank and blow out fuel line before replenishing with fresh fuel. Bakelite float bowl screws right off for cleaning....and make sure the jet held in by a leaf spring at the top of the bowl is free.

Remove starter cord pulley to get at the points for cleaning.....one of these cheap woodworker's band clamps around the flywheel wedged against the tank worked like a charm to free the very-frozen starter-pulley cap nut.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obido s/tg/detail/-/B0000CBI33/qid=1064973644/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-tools/102-7323363-9156153?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000CBI33/qid=1064973644/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-tools/102-7323363-9156153?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013)

Clean points with 400 grit wet-or-dry followed by a matchbook cover....add new sparkplug...both points and plug gaps set at .020...and it should spark when plug grounded against head.

Don't forget to prime the float bowl using the "tickler" button on the carb before trying to start....keep it pushed til fuel pours out into the environment...and of course it spills out every time you invert the engine.

And that 10-1 fuel mix doesn't like to ignite with a match, let alone a spark plug....a tiny whiff of spray ether in the carb air intake makes it a first-pull start every single time.

Woulda been an hour's job if I knew what I was doing...took a whole number of hours of fiddlin'.

[ 10-05-2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[hacd]

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/seagulls/53d69742.jpg

the on on the right is almost fixed up and out of the shop, the ones on the right are going to get seen to.

since these engines could have been knocking around for 20 30 or even 40 something years it
is a good idea to do a total rebuild .

they are quite simple to take apart,but there are a few tricks .
the nuts are BSF,and non whitworth tools wont grab the nuts so you have to get the tools or get inventive-not vice grips.
be care full with the fly wheel,icould be ruined if you use force removing it

i like to take the iron head apart, it not a big deal,4 studs hold the crank on.
the head can be really corroded due to the copper aluminium and iron mix,that some times needs skimmed down to good stuff on the lathe as well

i think it is really important to getin the water jacket and pick out all the stuff,doubt acid would really do it .

clean it up and spray with bbq paint

wire brush the aluminium parts

getting the lower unit separated is fun, dont beat it off, you have to press it-some how- as there is bound to be a rusted solid drive shaft,and the water pick up tube likes to stick.

if the chrome steel drive shaft casing is really bad-and you cant get a new one, i put it on the lathe and skim the bad stuff off fill then paint it

the exhaust tube always looks terrible , i have a bit of the appropriate sized tube and replace the old one .

the gear box should have thick oil in it 140 weight

there is lots of info at saving old seagulls

[Phil Young]

Noisy, smelly, rattle your transom off, dirty. But in their favour, we used to have one on the back of an inflatable, and every now and then the back half of the inflatable would deflate overnight. Drowned motor. No worries, just hose it thouroughly, tip it upside down and shake it a bit, let it dry then start it. Try that with a throwaway.

[High C]

Originally posted by Venchka:
I guess $900 for a 5hp 4-stroke is too much?
Hope I'm not too late, Wayne, but there's a dealer In Houma who sells Nissan and Tohatsu really cheap. They have that motor new for $1030.

Houma Marine Supply (http://www.onlineoutboards.com/#\)

I bought my Nissan 3.5hp 2 stroker there. It's a fine machine.