Thinking about Building Classic Runabout

[J Edmonds]

I am looking at building a classic runabout. This is a big change for me as I have been dreaming of getting started with the #148 sailing dingy that Paul Gartside designed (I have completed lofting). My wife and five year old love to go to the lake and play. I guess my priorities have changed since I ordered the plans several years ago.

I have looked at classic designs from both Glen-L and the woodenboat store (22' Palm Beach). I have done several searches on Google and this forum and have not found some important answers I need in order to order plans. Has anyone built any of the Zimmer or Glen-L classic runabouts traditionally (Batten Seam)? Is cold-molded the way to go? Your thoughts and experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Jason
Upstate South Carolina

[Tumzara]

Just a quick post to start with, in the next week I will put up some more.
First piece of advice, research every step as much as possible. Then comes the hard part, working out what is the best advice to follow.
Good luck, I will post some photos of my Glen L ski king in the next few weeks. Hopfully I will be turning her over within the next 4-6 weeks.

[dmg]

Jason

I'm currently putting the bottom on the Zimmer Bermuda. It's a traditionally constructed runabout. Although thick shellac was the prescribed plank joint sealant, I've elected to go with the tried/true 5200 bottom. No comparison on cost here, but I wasn't going to experiment, it takes too long to get to that point.

I originally did purchase the Glen-L Monte Carlo plan set. Having just completed their Whitehall strip boat, I wanted something more involved. Although soon after I started the framing for that boat, I actively pursued as many shows for runabouts, as I could, and found, the epoxy boats ( contemporary classic class ), were probably outnumbered 100-1. Of the few epoxy boats of this type that I did see, and they looked beautiful, the owners, for one reason or another, wouldn't do it again. In comparison, quite a few of the owners who had traditional boats, and either did the work themselves, or hired it out, were already doing another, already had other boats done, or were looking for another particular model to restore. Almost all of them were 5200 bottom boats.

In my case in particular, although I had a few questions regarding the plans available, mixing a laminated hull over traditional framework ( for the most part), I continued building all the frames, transom, cutting the battens, etc.. Soon after, I became quite allergic to epoxy, and as a result, burned the whole deal. That's how the Zimmer boat came to be the next project.

I'd pay some attention to the skill level rating on whatever you decide on. Medium to high doesn't always mean you can't handle it. Sometimes, with a realistic work pace, nice assortment of tools, you could likely build any of them. Take your time, double check everything, ask questions.

You might just consider restoring a classic. At least you have some idea right off about the roominess, overall looks, etc., and, you can use a lot of the original parts as patterns. Just a thought.

Dave

[J Edmonds]

Tumzara:

I'll look forward to your reply. I am currently looking at the Bell Isle by Ken Hankinson @ Glen-L.com. I'm thinking cold-molded per his design will be the way for me to go as it will live on a trailer.

Thanks,

Jason
Upstate SC

[J Edmonds]

Dave:

We posted minutes apart and I missed your post. Good information.... Thanks. I prefer traditional methods and have concerns about the epoxy since I have a basement shop. I also prefer to stay away from epoxy since having my five year old in the basement is a plus (both for me and my wife). You may have been the "nudge" I needed to look deeper into batten seam construction.

Jason
Upstate SC

[Bob Perkins]

If you are trailering, cold molded is the way to go.. Batten seam would be difficult to maintain.

Take a look at my site and you can follow the construction.

[dmg]

Jason

The epoxy allergy is like a lot of others, one day no problems, a week later you can't be any where near it.

Just as a note, a lot of the traditional designs that I reviewed were epoxy boats. It's fairly hard to find a complete set of plans that are not epoxy construction. The Zimmer boats fit the bill for me. Also, most were actually batten seam hulls, with 3-4 layers of veneers applied.

A few years ago I posed the question, here, about converting a hull designed for epoxy/veneers to traditional batten seam/planks. As I recall, lot's of lawyering back and forth and nothing being accomplished. Since then, I have progressed through the frame stage of both types, and the plank stage of the non epoxy boat. Aside from a triple plywood lamination for the stem on the epoxy boat, they were both nearly identical in framing, fasteners, and maybe even cost overall.

If you get the chance, Join Antique & Classic Boat Society (ACBS). The wealth of knowledge from these people far exceeds the yearly dues ( I think 2009 was $45.00, maybe, for a couple). If I can get the chance, I'll have a website yet this year, and post pic's from lofting to wherever I am at the time. Go to the shows for these types of boats, and talk to the owners. Chances are, every one of them started at a point similar to yours right now. ACBS has a website, as does your local chapter probably. They'll list the still upcoming shows. Also check out www.danenbergboatworks.com (http://www.danenbergboatworks.com).

Dave

[Tumzara]

I agree with dmg on the skill level issue. As with all of these things the required skill level plays a part in the decision of what boat to build and certainly was a factor in my choice. And I think I erred on the side of caaution and would not be put off by advanced level now.
I also should add that the size of the boat played a big part in the choice and there was not much choice in the smaller 15-17ft range therefore I would probably have ended up making the same choice regardless of the skill level.

[J Edmonds]

Thanks guys for the responses. I am afraid you are right that batten seam out of the water 325 days a year would be a problem. Although I would prefer a more traditional method, I do sadly realize a batten seam boat would not live well on a trailer. The plans I have from Paul Gartside are for a clinker dingy (a GREAT boat I will build one day!) - traditional but okay on a trailer. Not the case for batten seam. I know there have been several discussions on using various chemical concoctions in the seams. I read a very long one late into the evening last night. I'm not looking to break new ground in this endeavor. The cold molded method has been proven successful and I have seen photos of some amazing boats (Bob, Billy, Dick.....) on the Hankinson Forum on Glen-L. I will consider the Biscayne 22 and the Bell Isle. If I had to say right now I would probably go with the Bell Isle.

Bob - Great job on documenting the build. Incredible boat! Did your Biscayne 22 plans include the table of offsets. It may sound nutty but I would prefer to loft for myself the boat I build. I lofted the Gartside 148 and was amazed at how much I learned about the boat - even after 20 hours of setting around looking at the plans in preparation to loft.

Dave - Thanks for the tip on ACBS. The Blue Ridge Chapter appears to be fairly large. It sounds, from other posts, that you are quite experienced. I can appreciate your more traditional builds - I've riveted quite a few wood scraps together practicing for my riveted clinker dingy. I'll look forward to hearing more about the Zimmer build. I would love to see some pictures.

Tumzara - Thank you for your comment regarding skill level. That's another big one I try to always factor in. I think as long as I keep the size manageable, I'll be okay. I have been woodworking most of my life. Which also means I have been collecting tools for most of my life. I have an extensive library of boatbuilding books and a mountain of WB mag which helps a fellow "land locked" in the Upstate of SC! Also, I enjoy a challenge - my wife says to a fault! I will take my time (just ask her) and I'll ask questions when in doubt. There seems to be a lot of information about the Hankinson builds with several builders having very good websites.

Jason

[Bob Perkins]

Jason,

They provide a template for the outside of the frames and lines drawings. There is no table of offsets. It worked pretty well.

Good luck making your choice

[dmg]

Jason

Just a couple of points. Considering that you intend to build, (technically in your house basement ?), I think you maybe should pickup a small amount of epoxy, and either build something as a sample that you can actually use somehow, or just coat some scrap boards. Leave them in the work area, follow safety instructions, and see what happens. Although you would be doing the bulk of the work, the health concerns are throughout the house. Make sure no one else is bothered ( you'll be using gallons of the stuff ).

Lastly, batten seam boats with the mahogany planking were not originally designed to remain in the water, anymore than sitting on a trailer. The trailer concept came along much later in the runabouts history. When not in use, storage in a dry drafty shed/garage, with probably a concrete floor, is the worse case. A fairly reduced draft building, unheated, with either a humidifier or dirt floor would be much better.

The whole idea of the 5200, especially below the bootstripe, is to keep the joints all sealed, despite any plank movement. The hulls are planked with this movement in mind, as well as environmental conditions at the time of final installation of the planking.

Keep us "posted" on your progress.

Dave

[J Edmonds]

Dave - I picked up Danenburg's book today at the library. I have flipped through a bit and I think I understand more about how you are building your Zimmer design. I am interested, I'm just not ready to commit to buying plans for the traditional build yet. I do know that I am not interested in a restoration. However I can see the benefit in his modified traditional method. I assume he has had good luck with the modified method.

You are very right concerning epoxy and basement workshops. The smell/imact on the two most important folks in the house are critical. I have not generally had problems with basement "smells" coming up, but lawnmowers and gasoline is a lightweight compared to epoxy.

Decisions, decisions.... Much more research ahead.

Jason

[dmg]

Jason

Before you entirely rule out a restoration, there are a few benefits.

1. You start out with a factory boat/name recognition.

2. You can hopefully get a handle on how a candidate boat will fit your needs.

3. Often, many of the parts are at least good enough for patterns.

4. With some luck, all of the hardware will either be on the boat, or laying in it somewhere.

5. Future value may be greater when done.

6. Some line drawings are available to aid in the rebuild.

As an example, you could possibly find a project boat, pretty complete but not useable as is, for maybe $2,000-$4000. In regards to #4, since I'm building new, from scratch, just the proper bow lite for mine is $550.00, and it still needs polishing/chrome work.

I'm expecting something around $1500 per ft x 28 ft., for out of pocket cost, + new custom trailer ( for this type of boat) @$5000-$6000. Haven't figured anything for labor,shop expense,etc.. All things to consider, as well as the design you pick.

Dave

[Boston]

great thread guys
I am also considering the 22' Miami beach runabout
and have found some prints for a few hundred bucks
I'll be going cold molded poplar under cherry with a teak deck and ebony trim
thing is I also am not impressed with the idea of epoxy in the house
I to have a basement shop and epoxy down there isnt even remotely an option

if any of you have built this boat Ild love to hear of it
thanks
B