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View Full Version : Health care reform means more power for the IRS



Tylerdurden
09-04-2009, 09:24 AM
There's been a lot of discussion about the new and powerful federal agencies that would be created by the passage of a national health care bill. The Health Choices Administration, the Health Benefits Advisory Committee, the Health Insurance Exchange — there are dozens in all.
But if the plan envisioned by President Barack Obama and Congressional Democrats is enacted, the primary federal bureaucracy responsible for implementing and enforcing national health care will be an old and familiar one: the Internal Revenue Service. Under the Democrats' health care proposals, the already powerful — and already feared — IRS would wield even more power and extend its reach even farther into the lives of ordinary Americans, and the presidentially-appointed head of the new health care bureaucracy would have access to confidential IRS information about millions of individual taxpayers.
In short, health care reform, as currently envisioned by Democratic leaders, would be built on the foundation of an expanded and more intrusive IRS.
Under the various proposals now on the table, the IRS would become the main agency for determining who has an "acceptable" health insurance plan; for finding and punishing those who don't have such a plan; for subsidizing individual health insurance costs through the issuance of a tax credits; and for enforcing the rules on those who attempt to opt out, abuse, or game the system. A substantial portion of H.R. 3200, the House health care bill, is devoted to amending the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 in order to give the IRS the authority to perform these new duties.
The Democrats' plan would require all Americans to have "acceptable" insurance coverage (the legislation includes long and complex definitions of "acceptable") and would designate the IRS as the agency charged with enforcing that requirement. On your yearly 1040 tax return, you would be required to attest that you have "acceptable" coverage. Of course, you might be lying, or simply confused about whether or not you are covered, so the IRS would need a way to check your claim for accuracy. Under current plans, insurers would be required to submit to the IRS something like the 1099 form in which taxpayers report outside income. The IRS would then check the information it receives from the insurers against what you have submitted on your tax form.
If it all matches up, you're fine. If it doesn't, you will hear from the IRS. And if you don't have "acceptable" coverage, you will be subject to substantial fines — fines that will be administered by the IRS.
Under some versions of health reform now circulating on Capitol Hill, the IRS would also be intimately involved in how you pay for insurance. Everyone would be required to buy coverage. The millions of Americans who can't afford it would receive a subsidy to pay for it. Under the version of the plan currently under negotiation in the Senate Finance Committee, that subsidy would come through the IRS in the form of a refundable tax credit. Under the House plan, the subsidy would come directly from the Health Choices Administration.
In either scenario, the IRS would be the key to making the system work. Before you could receive any subsidy, whether through the IRS or not, the Health Choices Administration would have to determine whether you are eligible for it. To do so, the bills under consideration would give the Health Choices Commissioner the authority to demand sensitive, confidential information from the IRS about individual taxpayers. The IRS would have to provide it.
Under current law, it is a felony for a government official to release taxpayer information in all but the most limited of circumstances. One such exception is for law enforcement; the IRS is allowed to give taxpayer information to prosecutors in criminal cases. The information can also, in some instances, be released to the Social Security Administration and the Veterans' Administration for the determination of benefits. The health care bills would change the Internal Revenue Code to permit the IRS to give similar information to the vast, new health care bureaucracy.

That means the personal tax information of millions of Americans would enter the system whether they want it to or not. "There's a mandate to buy insurance," says one Republican House aide. "You have to buy it. You have millions of people who can't buy it without a subsidy, so they will have no choice but to accept the subsidy in order to buy insurance, and then the Health Choices Commissioner will have access to their tax records."
"How many hands would this information go through?" asks a GOP source in the Senate. "What are the quality controls? This increases the risk of misusing this information."
Some versions of the bill even permit the release of confidential taxpayer information for decidedly less pressing reasons. In H.R. 3200, the IRS would be required to provide taxpayer information to the Social Security Administration for the purpose of helping Social Security officials find qualifying seniors who can then be encouraged to enroll in the prescription drug program. "There is no precedent for using taxpayer information for the purpose of identifying people to go out and advertise to them," says the House expert.
So far, there has been little substantive public debate about the integral role of the IRS in nearly every aspect of the various national health care proposals. But people who are closely involved with the process are deeply concerned about what they view as a massive, and in some senses unprecedented, expansion of the Internal Revenue Service.
First, they wonder whether the IRS can handle the new demands. "There is a sense at the IRS that their purpose is to collect revenue and not to implement all sorts of other programs," says a second Senate GOP aide. "Also, the IRS isn't necessarily great at doing what it does already. How is it going to determine whether 300 million people have health insurance?"
Second, they are concerned about anticipated abuse of the system. "You're going to have lots of fraud," says the House source. "People claiming lots of affordability credits or refundable tax credits. The IRS is not going to have the resources and expertise to police this stuff."
Finally, there is a third concern, more fundamental than questions of whether the IRS can handle the job: Should the IRS be involved in health care enforcement in the first place? As seen in the town halls across the country in August, many Americans are concerned about the coercive nature of the proposed national health care system. Handing the IRS the power to monitor every American's place in the system worries them even more.
Backers of the Democratic bills are betting that the handouts involved — giving people money to buy health insurance — will outweigh concerns about privacy and coercive government. Perhaps. But before Congress makes any decision on national health care, voters should know just what it will involve.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Health-care-reform-means-more-power-for-the-IRS-56781377.html

Tylerdurden
09-04-2009, 12:14 PM
What no liberal defense of the IRS? :D

Tylerdurden
09-04-2009, 12:57 PM
Read the bill. Then try and assassinate the source.

ljb5
09-04-2009, 01:09 PM
I currently have private health insurance. I pay deductibles and have an HSA.

Already, I have to report it to the IRS every year when I do my taxes.

I am not convinced that the new proposal will be any different and I haven't seen anything to suggest it will be any more onerous than the current system.

This articles says the IRS might give me a tax break or a subsidy for health insurance. Is it okay if I don't flip out about that?

switters
09-04-2009, 01:13 PM
Here is the deal, when you go to get your auto registered, they know if you have already paid for the auto insurance. The state dept of revenue, at least in Colorado, has become the insurance agency strongman.

The same thing with health insurance. While I don't think it is an IRS power grab (they already have that power) it is using the feds as the insurance agencies bouncer. Everyone must pay if we have have to do this. And they have to be vetted. And the IAs want the govt to spend the time and money to do that, makes the IAs more money.

Which is actually more sinister in my book than the IRS power grab theory. Regardless of the motivation, this thing needs to be watched. Personally, I hope the only thing on President Obamas agenda that gets passed is health care reform. I do not want to see some national debt driving insurance provider money making machine, for the sake of "political victory".

Backstory on why I want tags on the truck and no insurance. It is not because I am an insurance hold out, but no one is driving it right now but I would like to be able to park it on the street while I am working on things in the driveway without the local law enforcement agency giving me fines.

ljb5
09-04-2009, 01:22 PM
I think the real headline is:

Dumb People Act Surprised to Learn that IRS Enforces Tax Policy.

Tylerdurden
09-04-2009, 01:24 PM
I think the real headline is:

Dumb People Act Surprised to Learn that IRS Enforces Tax Policy.

When an argument is already lost.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/mudhutwarrior/Tobacco-Enema.jpg

Norman Bernstein
09-04-2009, 01:26 PM
This one is sufficiently bogus enough to induce me to want to comment... although I already know I'm going to regret it.



Under the Democrats' health care proposals, the already powerful — and already feared — IRS would wield even more power and extend its reach even farther into the lives of ordinary Americans....

In short, health care reform, as currently envisioned by Democratic leaders, would be built on the foundation of an expanded and more intrusive IRS.

This isn't really true... but you'd have to read the details to understand why.


Under the various proposals now on the table, the IRS would become the main agency for determining who has an "acceptable" health insurance plan; for finding and punishing those who don't have such a plan; for subsidizing individual health insurance costs through the issuance of a tax credits; and for enforcing the rules on those who attempt to opt out, abuse, or game the system. A substantial portion of H.R. 3200, the House health care bill, is devoted to amending the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 in order to give the IRS the authority to perform these new duties.

This is all true... but it's actually no different than any existing legislation where someone who requires Federal aid of one sort or another has to justify and verify the need, partially through tax returns and tax records.


The Democrats' plan would require all Americans to have "acceptable" insurance coverage (the legislation includes long and complex definitions of "acceptable") and would designate the IRS as the agency charged with enforcing that requirement. On your yearly 1040 tax return, you would be required to attest that you have "acceptable" coverage. ... Under current plans, insurers would be required to submit to the IRS something like the 1099 form in which taxpayers report outside income. The IRS would then check the information it receives from the insurers against what you have submitted on your tax form.

And that is precisely what happens in Massachusetts, under the recent law change. The insuror issues a 1099-HC, which confirms that the insured is covered. That's all there is to it. For the vast majority of people already covered, either via work, or privately, there's nothing else.


If it all matches up, you're fine. If it doesn't, you will hear from the IRS. And if you don't have "acceptable" coverage, you will be subject to substantial fines — fines that will be administered by the IRS.

The fines being contemplated are not 'substantial', by any means.... they are a lot lower than the cost of insurance. They do serve a worthwhile purpose, since the people who are opting to pay the fine, rather than obtain insurance, are going to end up in an emergency room at one point or another, and the taxpayers will have to cover the bill.


Under some versions of health reform now circulating on Capitol Hill, the IRS would also be intimately involved in how you pay for insurance. Everyone would be required to buy coverage. The millions of Americans who can't afford it would receive a subsidy to pay for it. Under the version of the plan currently under negotiation in the Senate Finance Committee, that subsidy would come through the IRS in the form of a refundable tax credit. Under the House plan, the subsidy would come directly from the Health Choices Administration.
In either scenario, the IRS would be the key to making the system work. Before you could receive any subsidy, whether through the IRS or not, the Health Choices Administration would have to determine whether you are eligible for it. To do so, the bills under consideration would give the Health Choices Commissioner the authority to demand sensitive, confidential information from the IRS about individual taxpayers. The IRS would have to provide it.

Yes, that's right... and right now, even without health reform, if you expect to collect food stamps or AFDC or any other federally sponsored financial assistance to the poor, you do have to prove you need it. I don't think anyone would advocate that the gov't shouldn't verify the claims.... unless, of course, you're fond of fraud against the taxpayers of the United States.



Under current law, it is a felony for a government official to release taxpayer information in all but the most limited of circumstances. One such exception is for law enforcement; the IRS is allowed to give taxpayer information to prosecutors in criminal cases. The information can also, in some instances, be released to the Social Security Administration and the Veterans' Administration for the determination of benefits.

That's right... all are reasonable exceptions to the privacy provisions of the tax code.


The health care bills would change the Internal Revenue Code to permit the IRS to give similar information to the vast, new health care bureaucracy.

It's simply not true. They could ONLY provide the information in the event that a federal subsidy is being requested. Would you want the gov't to simply take people's word for it?


That means the personal tax information of millions of Americans would enter the system whether they want it to or not.

Only those who are looking for federal financial help... just as anyone who presently looks for federal financial help has to provide proof of need, including tax information.


"There's a mandate to buy insurance," says one Republican House aide. "You have to buy it. You have millions of people who can't buy it without a subsidy, so they will have no choice but to accept the subsidy in order to buy insurance, and then the Health Choices Commissioner will have access to their tax records."

Well, let's see.... is a supposed violation of tax privacy worse than, for example, not getting health care?


"How many hands would this information go through?" asks a GOP source in the Senate. "What are the quality controls? This increases the risk of misusing this information."

The answer: precisely the same as currently exists, for any impoverished person applying for food stamps or AFDC.


Some versions of the bill even permit the release of confidential taxpayer information for decidedly less pressing reasons. In H.R. 3200, the IRS would be required to provide taxpayer information to the Social Security Administration for the purpose of helping Social Security officials find qualifying seniors who can then be encouraged to enroll in the prescription drug program.

I'm not completely comfortable with that idea, per se... but, then again, informing people of rights and benefits they might not be aware of isn't what I'd call an insidious violation of privacy... especially to the people who might then save thousands of dollars by being given that information.


"There is no precedent for using taxpayer information for the purpose of identifying people to go out and advertise to them," says the House expert.

That's simply false. Every one of us periodically gets a summary of our potential Social Security benefits, letting us know what we can expect to collect in retirement. I don't see any evil intent in THAT.


First, they wonder whether the IRS can handle the new demands. "There is a sense at the IRS that their purpose is to collect revenue and not to implement all sorts of other programs," says a second Senate GOP aide. "Also, the IRS isn't necessarily great at doing what it does already. How is it going to determine whether 300 million people have health insurance?"

They don't have to. The insurors will supply the conformation, via a 1040-HC form, just like they do in Massachusetts today.


Second, they are concerned about anticipated abuse of the system. "You're going to have lots of fraud," says the House source. "People claiming lots of affordability credits or refundable tax credits. The IRS is not going to have the resources and expertise to police this stuff."

Their ability to police it is no better or worse than their ability to police ANY aspect of federal taxation... this is no different.


Finally, there is a third concern, more fundamental than questions of whether the IRS can handle the job: Should the IRS be involved in health care enforcement in the first place? As seen in the town halls across the country in August, many Americans are concerned about the coercive nature of the proposed national health care system. Handing the IRS the power to monitor every American's place in the system worries them even more.

No one is handing any power to monitor every American, any more so than they already monitor every American for tax reasons.


Backers of the Democratic bills are betting that the handouts involved — giving people money to buy health insurance — will outweigh concerns about privacy and coercive government. Perhaps.

To those who get covered under this plan, and then receive health care because of it, health care they might not have gotten at all, I'd say that, yeah, for them, the benefit FAR outweighs the privacy concerns. When you're dying of a potentially curable illness, privacy is the LAST thing on your mind.


But before Congress makes any decision on national health care, voters should know just what it will involve.

Too bad. They're not likely to know at all, considering the volume of misinformation, distortion, exaggeration, and outright lies being spewed by the insurance companies and their puppet legislators.

ljb5
09-04-2009, 01:35 PM
Well said, Norman, but we all know that he can't (and won't) read that much.

Let's make it simple:

The IRS is already deeply involved in health care (for obvious and practical reasons).
The new provisions are in line with the IRS's current role and do not create extraordinary or inappropriate new powers.

huisjen
09-04-2009, 01:41 PM
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/mudhutwarrior/Tobacco-Enema.jpg

Mark, whatever you do in the privacy of your own dungeon is none of our business.

Dan

John of Phoenix
09-04-2009, 01:52 PM
I'd always wondered about that expression. The Bilge at its best.

Interesting that it took 60 years to figure out that it didn't work.

Tylerdurden
09-04-2009, 02:22 PM
Thanks for posting Norman, It good when your side espouses its views so many of us can recoil at the thought of them. Kind of the intent of this thread.

For me the Health care issue is just stupid anyway. Who is footing the bill? Your kids in my view. That's selfish enough to count me out.
20% UNEMPLOYMENT AND TRILLIONS IN DEBT. Yeah lets add health care.:p