What is this Sailing Canoe????

[neilgreenfield]

any help would be grateful

http://www.riverthamescharters.co.uk/canoeproject.htm (http://www.riverthamescharters.co.uk/canoeproject.htm)

thank you

neil

[Kevin G]

Handsome

KG

[Emmett Smith]

Wow, never seen anything like that!

I would say that is an English boat, maybe Thames river built. Though it is a canoe, at has many aesthetic similarities with the Thames river skiff.

The stem profile, thrusting up high and sharp over the deck with a brass strip right over the top ending in a fleur d' lis is all Thames. Also the beaded accents on the keelson and seat rails. The floorboards of alternating woods also looks very like the floors that are seen in Thames river skiffs. Aesthetically I have to say this canoe is very much a Thames river boat.

The problem with this theory is that this sort of smooth-skin planking, not to mention the canoe form in general, is pretty unique to North America. So, I don't know where that leaves you. Maybe this was made by and English builder who emigrated to Canada in the late 1800s? I would think that is about the era of the boat, 1870-1900.

Fascinating, very very unique. First thing I would do is contact the WCHA (Wooden Canoe Heritage Association) or maybe send a research request to Dan Miller at the Antique Boat Museum.

Thanks for posting that!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I respectfully differ on two points: fine carvel planking was not unusual in Britain and the canoe form was rather popular on the Thames in Victorian times.

[Bruce Taylor]

I respectfully differ on two points: fine carvel planking was not unusual in Britain

I believe Emmett's going on the assumption that this is an example of "smoothskin lapstrake" planking, as practiced by Rushton (not carvel, but double-beveled laps). I've squinted at the photos, and find I can't tell.

[JimD]

A beauty, except for that garish strippy removable sole. Was that typical of whatever period it is from? Replace it with some planks or nothing at all.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I believe Emmett's going on the assumption that this is an example of "smoothskin lapstrake" planking, as practiced by Rushton (not carvel, but double-beveled laps). I've squinted at the photos, and find I can't tell.

I stand corrected.

[Emmett Smith]

I was referring to smooth-skin lapstrake planking as seen in some Rushton and other canoes and of course the Adirondack Guideboats. But to be honest I have never encountered fine carvel planking as that would be without battens to back the seams. I am fascinated to know that that was a common method in England. Looking at the pictures again it seems likely that that is how this boat was made. Though how a carvel seam can be made tight at that scale is somewhat beyond me.

As to the 'garish' removable sole, I think that is aesthetically correct. I worked on a Thames river skiff that had a removable sole much like that, alternating mahogany and cedar, though the planks were not tight to one another. The Thames river boats are pretty flashy in general, lots of fine shapes and beaded accents.

[Paul Pless]

So there's no way this canoe was covered in canvas?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Don't believe that canvas was ever part of that boat - there are some really superb details - see the bronzework, and some odd puzzles - like the gunnel structure - no inwhales...

Andrew, do you have any vintage rowing contacts?

[htom]

St. Lawrence River skiff, modified for sailing?

[Bruce Taylor]

Though how a carvel seam can be made tight at that scale is somewhat beyond me.

I believe some early Canadian basswood canoes featured planks joined with butted edges, without laps or battens. I don't have references at hand, but, as I recall, this method later evolved into the familiar wood canvas canoe.

Dixon Kemp mentions two types of carvel planking for the British canoes of his day: "ribband carvel" and "double skin" carvel. The former method relies on interior ribbands to keep seams tight. In the latter method, the boat is planked twice, with seams of the outer skin falling at the centers of the inner skin's planks.


EDIT...I just had a look in my copy of The Canoe: A Living Tradition. Edge-butted strip planking of various kinds seems to have been pretty common in the Peterborough area, before and after the advent of canvas (come to think of it, my neighbour across the road has a Lakefield cedar runabout built in this manner).

I don't see why similar methods shouldn't have been used in England.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

http://www.intcanoe.org/iclife/hist/dscttabl.htm <<<<Mine of lines
http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/evolution.html <<<Some of the saga

[Emmett Smith]

Would 'ribband carvel' be the same as batten-seam construction? Canadian builder Walter Dean (and others) would cut a half-lap in the inside of the planks on either side of the seam and fit a batten, often brass or galvanized, into the laps to back the seam itself. This canoe has many other similarities to Canadian canoes -the shape of the decks, the heavy outwales and lack of inwales- but I still think it was Thames built. Especially now that I've read the url and see that it is on the Thames now!

The Canadian strip built boats are not really what you would call carvel, because the strips are so narrow- hardly 'planks' at all. Sometimes the planks even ran perpendicular to the keel. Peterborough boats also used strips that were bead-and-cove rather than square-shouldered. Not sure about Lakefield.

[Woxbox]

I'm agreeing that it's a Victorian era British boat. I've seen photos of similar, but I can't place where right now. It certainly needs to be fitted out with a cushioned seat in the bow for the lady. A small guitar or mandolin would be appropriate gear, as well.

[Bruce Taylor]

Would 'ribband carvel' be the same as batten-seam construction?

Yup. The battens in Kemp's diagram are fairly wide, and clenched on the outside of the hull.


This canoe has many other similarities to Canadian canoes -the shape of the decks, the heavy outwales and lack of inwales- but I still think it was Thames built.

Agreed on both counts.


Peterborough boats also used strips that were bead-and-cove rather than square-shouldered. Not sure about Lakefield.

The Lakefields might have used a Stephenson-style machined joint, too...and I might well have overlooked that on my neighbour's boat.