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gert
09-03-2009, 10:47 AM
VG douglas fir, 1/4 X 3 laminations with Tightbond III:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2670/3883795573_6c55e2f3f0.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2437/3884586938_a9fb952ce5.jpg

David G
09-03-2009, 11:01 AM
Gert

Looks like a fun project. I agree... more fotos, please.

Mrleft8
09-03-2009, 11:07 AM
Very impressive! Brings back memories (nightmares really) of the 4 storey continuous handrail I worked on for Bill Cosby's townhouse in Manhattan.

Ron Williamson
09-03-2009, 11:30 AM
Before you glue them up shouldn't you get the alignment a bit closer?
Ya might need a coupla more clamps too!
R

gert
09-03-2009, 12:15 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3422/3884926168_f43d040039.jpg

No we didn't have enough clamps; had to go out and buy some more.

The rail will sit on a continuous 1/4 X 1 1/4 steel plate that was templated on site, this will be let into the bottom of the rail. the template was "faired" in the shop. Every other clamp is at a 2" X 3" steel angle bracket about 6" O.C. that's screwed at the lofting line (taken from templates) on the plywood. The biggest concern of coarse in not gluing in any permanent "twist" :rolleyes:, so the table must be true.

MiddleAgesMan
09-03-2009, 02:13 PM
A little hand rail, eh? Sort of like, Oh, she's just a little pregnant. ;)

Very nice work, Gert. Nice shop, too.

gert
09-03-2009, 03:03 PM
Table was waxed.

The strips started as 12/4 X 10 X 16'-0" VG old growth fir :eek:
And there is about 60 strips 14 + feet long left over :D:D:D

I know where they might end up ;)

Bruce Taylor
09-03-2009, 04:28 PM
First rate, gert (as always). :cool:

Mrleft8
09-10-2009, 09:17 AM
http://www.flutedbeams.com/discovercoldbendwood.html
Take a look at this guy's gig..... I'd sure like to know how he does this....

gert
09-11-2009, 11:50 AM
OK, now the big question.

It goes out doors, will be maintained by a lay-person; what do I shop finish it with that's suitable for the PNW?

David G
09-11-2009, 02:27 PM
gert,

I've a good bit of experience in the architectural millwork biz. Your question about finish just leaves me gasping. What kind of a project is this? Who's the owner, and is there an architect involved? Wasn't there some sort of specification for the finish? Are you responsible for the finish? It's in your Scope of Work? What sort of structure is it? How Front And Center visible will the handrails be?

Too many details that I don't know... so I'm just reacting. But if this is some sort of casual, or small-scale project, and they're looking to you for design and spec decisions and/or recommendations... I think I might have started with the choice of woods. Norman is right... Fir won't hold up well unfinished, and to keep a finish on it is gonna take diligence. I'd have started with ipe, or some other species can can be left (unfinished) to age gracefully (and without the splinters that will surely develop if the finish fails, and the fir weathers).

Given the situation you've so far described, and the specific question you've asked, Norman's suggestion is perfectly reasonable. The other thought would be to supply it with an oiled finish (raw linseed oil, or pure tung oil), and let them know that - from this point on - they can continue the oiling, or switch to an oil with some higher resin content (like Daly's Seafin oil), or use spar varnish, or paint with a good acrylic latex enamel.

I'm really curious about the project details that lead you - at this late date - to be wondering about finish. PM me if you don't want to divert this thread.

Cheers,

gert
09-11-2009, 02:40 PM
I've a good bit of experience in the architectural millwork biz. Your question about finish just leaves me gasping. What kind of a project is this? Who's the owner, and is there an architect involved? Wasn't there some sort of specification for the finish? Are you responsible for the finish? It's in your Scope of Work?

Me too, if 35 years counts, but mostly interior work, high end residential and corporate tenant improvement stuff (preferred).

No spec, no architect, no money...

This particular job is a "freebie"

We are actually thinking along the "oil finish" line, because the home owner will be ultimately responsible; just need a little product input; after all the rail is what it is, isn't it :rolleyes:

And thanks btw.

ps
Ipe is fairly recent on the radar up here, aka - no comfort level.

David G
09-11-2009, 04:12 PM
OK, it's a casual job. That clarifies the situation, and relieves a certain amount of my angst.

What kinda oil are your considering? We can debate their various merits for the situation... and compare the oils to a spar varnish. Or, you can just pick one and run. Get it? Finish? Run? :p God, I just knock myself out :rolleyes:

OK, I'll be serious. Let's just say you could pick an oil and start your Smear Campaign. Lord, I just can't help myself :eek:

I'd want to do some thinking and research to verify or correct (and get more detail about the project)... but my first thought would be the tung oil. I also like the Seafin Oil for some situations like this, but not applied so heavily as to build much of a film. A film will fail without unrelenting diligence... which is why I'm a bit leery of spar varnish here.

Cheers,

Paul Girouard
09-11-2009, 08:29 PM
I'd second the Daly's SeaFin. Oiled twice in the spring and once in the late fall will keep it looking pretty good. If they get behind on the schedule it can pretty easily be sanded down and re-done.

The varnish would be a PITA to maintain , and worst to re-sand / re-do.

Nice work!

Stiletto
09-11-2009, 08:50 PM
How much grip will an oiled finish provide on a rainy day?

Paul Girouard
09-11-2009, 09:17 PM
How much grip will an oiled finish provide on a rainy day?




It's not that slick the Seafin. I've used it on railings before.

These rails look to be to wide to be code conforming , as they are to wide to grip.

I don't see the grip as a issue.

Stiletto
09-11-2009, 09:26 PM
You are probably right Paul, but in my view grip becomes an issue if you lose your footing.

Paul Girouard
09-11-2009, 11:01 PM
You are probably right Paul,


OHHHHHH I like that , nice job Stilly:D


but in my view grip becomes an issue if you lose your footing.



Yes, your right, BUT seeing that rail is so wide gripping it is not a option. The Seafin isn't what I'd call "Tacky" but it far from "slick" . IMO it would not present a issue nor add a issue.

David G
09-11-2009, 11:42 PM
Yes, your right, BUT seeing that rail is so wide gripping it is not a option. The Seafin isn't what I'd call "Tacky" but it far from "slick" . IMO it would not present a issue nor add a issue.

Agreed. It's important, though, to caution them not to get too generous with the amount applied. There is some resin in the Seafin (though not as much as spar varnish), so a film will build (just more slowly than sv). It's the moisture getting in under a film that will cause failure... yes, and make the grip slicker, though that's really not such an issue. But, if someone gets happy, and keeps putting coats on - because the more that's on, the glossier and "prettier" it will look - then you're creating a film finish, and problems for later.

Paul Girouard
09-11-2009, 11:46 PM
Agreed. It's important, though, to caution them not to get too generous with the amount applied. There is some resin in the Seafin (though not as much as spar varnish), so a film will build (just more slowly than sv). It's the moisture getting in under a film that will cause failure... yes, and make the grip slicker, though that's really not such an issue. But, if someone gets happy, and keeps putting coats on - because the more that's on, the glossier and "prettier" it will look - then you're creating a film finish, and problems for later.



Most home owners are not that "spunky" , your lucky to get most to do three coats a year :p

Paul Girouard
09-11-2009, 11:47 PM
Gert are you saying this was a pro-bono job:confused: They must be one damned fine client:eek: :eek:

Mrleft8
09-12-2009, 07:58 AM
CPES and then epoxy.

Mrleft8
09-12-2009, 09:17 AM
You'd still need something on top of that, for UV protection.

Gel-coat?:D

Paul Girouard
09-12-2009, 09:18 AM
I've been thinking about ipe, myself.... I have built dockboxes with a laid teak top and steps, but the most recent one I built has failed miserably... my own fault, I didn't properly seal the edges of the plywood core, and didn't properly caulk the edge seams (although the top seams were fine).

Is this the box you showed us a year or so ago? You painted it white IRRC?


I'm thinking that I'd re-do it with ipe, instead of teak... but I'm wondering if my cheap 10" table saw would have the balls to resaw 1/4" thick strips from an 8/4 ipe plank. It worked fine for teak.... although admittedly, it was a challenge. From what I've heard about ipe, it's far tougher to saw..... any ideas?



What brand cheap saw you talking about?

We rip Ipe with the company DeWalt 10" saw, very similar to the small Makita saw I have for a site saw.

My first thoughts would be to question your saw blade choice. No you have a thin kerf Freud 24 tooth rip blade? If you set up the saw right , fence in line or really just a 'scosh' open a 1/64th or less " more open" on the out-feed side of the table, and you wax the saw bed and fence. And use a 24 tooth thin kerf blade just about any saw should cut Ipe, IF IT'S that under powered I give up on that saw.

Welcome back BTW.

Mrleft8
09-12-2009, 09:20 AM
Actually, I'm not sure you would need something more on top.... If epoxy "deck paint" holds up as well as it does, why would clear epoxy degrade any faster? The CPES is providing the sealer/primer function, and the clear epoxy resin is providing the "skin".

Paul Girouard
09-12-2009, 09:26 AM
And when that finish cracks , which it will , and water gets in VG Fir turns black , sure will be a PITA to refinish a CEPS / epoxy failed finish.:eek:

Mrleft8
09-12-2009, 10:06 AM
Well.....In that case, Gert could become an expert faux finisher and paint realistic woodgrain on the railing....:D

Paul Girouard
09-12-2009, 10:22 AM
I'm only back for the non-political stuff.



Thats what we all say :D

David G
09-12-2009, 10:54 AM
Mr. B,

The first time I worked with ipe was building some massive benches/tables for a church garden in New Hampshire. Maybe 15 years ago, and I'd never heard of it, but the architect chose it, and off we went.

I was shocked. It was so dense and hard that - half the time - I felt kinda like I was machining aluminium. And heavy? I was schlepping 6 X 6 sticks for some of it... and had to actually get help moving them around (until they got cut down into more manageable pieces). Since I don't know your saw, I can only guess. My guess would be it'd be a bit of a reach.

If you take all the steps that Mr. Girouard suggests, as well as keeping your table & fence well waxed and your blade lubricated... you might just pull it off. But I'm guessing it'll be slow.

Good Luck,

Paul Girouard
09-12-2009, 11:01 AM
If you take all the steps that Mr. Girouard suggests, as well as keeping your table & fence well waxed and your blade lubricated... you might just pull it off. But I'm guessing it'll be slow.



I mentioned the table and fence waxing , I did NOT include the blade as I figured I'd get a blast of crap about waxing a blade while the saw was running :rolleyes:

David G
09-12-2009, 11:10 AM
I mentioned the table and fence waxing , I did NOT include the blade as I figured I'd get a blast of crap about waxing a blade while the saw was running :rolleyes:

Paul,

My apologies. I try not to read your woodworking posts too carefully, esp. early in the morning, because so much brilliance leaves me blinded all darned day :D

Paul Girouard
09-12-2009, 11:45 AM
Don't even try using Fuller counter sinks with Ipe , we pre -bore the bung / plug hole with a 3/8" spade bit then use Stainless screws with a aggressive pre-drill type tip.

I'll get some photo's of the Ipe deck I just re-did the stairs on last month.

This set of stairs they had the framer start these without much / any plan in mind,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/July320099.jpg

next week I'll show you what we did for a refined stair.

It's a bitch to work with , dust is nasty, most wear a dust mask when machining. It routs fine with carbide bits , saws well , no "give" to it , so not amount of pounding gets you any where, if it don't fit re-cut it. Damned near like steel.

David thanks for the kind words eh , brilliance, ya right :rolleyes:

Just a simple ole country carpenter here makin a living ;)

Paul Girouard
09-18-2009, 08:03 PM
Agreed. It's important, though, to caution them not to get too generous with the amount applied. There is some resin in the Seafin (though not as much as spar varnish), so a film will build (just more slowly than sv). It's the moisture getting in under a film that will cause failure... yes, and make the grip slicker, though that's really not such an issue. But, if someone gets happy, and keeps putting coats on - because the more that's on, the glossier and "prettier" it will look - then you're creating a film finish, and problems for later.



Heres some Western Red Cedar w/ about 4 coats of Seafin applied.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Sept18200917.jpg

2MeterTroll
09-18-2009, 09:23 PM
OK, now the big question.

It goes out doors, will be maintained by a lay-person; what do I shop finish it with that's suitable for the PNW?

bees wax, rosen, linseed and toung oil. very heavy on the wax, oil it with the linseed and toung. make a winter wax (hard paste) with all four and give them an entire can of it.

here its not the sun that kills wood fast its the wet. make the thing as wet proof as you can.

SamSam
09-18-2009, 09:57 PM
Deks Olje might work for coating the handrail.
http://igoe.ie/cms/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=29


http://www.flutedbeams.com/discovercoldbendwood.html
Take a look at this guy's gig..... I'd sure like to know how he does this....

I remember an article in Fine Woodworking about using anhydrous ammonia for bending wood. They had a 2" square stick of oak tied in a knot, but it can be fairly dangerous stuff to work with.

I googled "bending wood with anhydrous ammonia" and there's a bunch of stuff, about page 3 of this article tells about it and how to do it on a small scale.
http://www.allbusiness.com/furniture-related/office-furniture-including/644819-1.html

Mrleft8
09-19-2009, 08:31 AM
They sent me a sample piece of 1"x1"x4' Cherry. I'm planning on playing with it tuesday. It's not anhydrous ammonia though. They subject the wood to intense steam heat while green, and compress it length wise. Apparently this allows the cells to slide along eachother making it extemely flexible. When the wood dries, it stays where you put it. I think it could have great potential in wooden boat frame repair, as long as the strength isn't compromised.

Bruce Taylor
09-19-2009, 08:52 AM
as long as the strength isn't compromised.

How could it not be?

Looks like amazing stuff for dry locations...built in furniture, architectural detailing, etc.

Mrleft8
09-19-2009, 09:01 AM
I don't know Bruce, but they claim it's not. If you look on the site, you'll see a couple of boats built using the stuff.