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vtsnipe
09-02-2009, 08:17 AM
Well, I was intending to use red lead for the inside of my centerboard trunk. It does not seem to be locally available, and as I will be using the boat in freshwater only, I am wondering if there is an acceptable less toxic substitute?

If not, any suggestions for on-line vendors?

Thanks,
Chris

Jay Greer
09-02-2009, 08:22 AM
If you are seeking the protection against fungus that red lead sealer provides, there is really no substitute. The Geo. Kirby Jr. Paint Co. are the folks who supply me with red lead.
http://www.kirbypaint.com/products.shtml
Jay

vtsnipe
09-02-2009, 08:31 AM
The boat is trailered. I don't think I need the fungus protection, however, when I start looking at primers/paints that are suitable for use below waterline, I always seem to end up in two-part epoxy type finishes. It's a wooden boat, and I would like to use a more traditional finish. If there is a substitute that meets my needs I think I would prefer that to the red lead. I guess I can go that route if I need to. Any other thoughts?

Chris

p.s. Not "traditional" but less toxic ... how about priming w/CPES?? What do you think?

peter radclyffe
09-02-2009, 09:07 AM
on the thames skiffs, narrowboats, barges, daytrip boats, thames steamers, pinnaces etc we always used one part black varnish, i dont know what the same is in the u.s but its good for freshwater & about a 5th the price

Dan McCosh
09-02-2009, 09:19 AM
These guys sell it on line: http://www.sanpaco.com/view.asp?id=2406

Thorne
09-02-2009, 09:36 AM
One alternative is something like CPES and then hot-coat a good oil based paint over it.

I'll admit that I ordered red lead from Kirbys and used that with a marine enamel over it, but my boat gets used in brackish and salt water at times.

Another alternative would be a non-ablative bottom paint -- you can sometimes pick up small cans of the stuff on sale when they've past their 'best by' date.

But for freshwater use on a trailered boat, probably just paint would work fine.

Lew Barrett
09-02-2009, 11:32 AM
You can get lead powder from many pottery supply outfits, but I have to own up to having a "secret source."

htom
09-02-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure that "less toxic" is a good thing. If you've got Zebra mussels or Eurasian Water Milfoil (Myriophyllum spicatum) or ... (what's the next invasive thing going to be, there are hundreds...) in your centerboard trunk, and don't get it washed out every time you remove the boat from the water, I'd rather that such hitchhikers died.

Bob Cleek
09-02-2009, 01:45 PM
Good, and interesting, point, htom.

I wonder if the problems we've been seeing with invasive acquatic critters aren't to some significant extent related to the banning of most all effective biocides. My pet peeve is the present unavailability of tributyltin oxide which used to be a staple in bottom paint. Yes, it is a "heavy metal" and is toxic... but that was its purpose, after all. The impact of humans on the environment is unavoidable. We can't go walking about staring at the ground lest we inadvertently step on a bug, can we? (Yes, I know the Jains do in India... but they don't eat Big Macs either... go figure!) Most all of this stuff hitchhiked into new ecological niches on man-made things like boats and planes. Maybe a little toxic bottom paint isn't such a bad thing. We lose a few individuals in the local species pool, but without it, we risk newcomers wiping out ALL the individuals in the local species pool.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/images/fish_marine_images/invboattrailer.jpg

PS... if anybody knows where to obtain tributyltin oxide, or make it, don't keep it a secret. It's use in bottom paint is banned by federal law, but I think the feds are more worried about searching for turds in the ocean than they are bottom paint that works.

Thorne
09-02-2009, 02:42 PM
Think there is a problem with water weeds at ramps?:D

http://www.luckhardt.com/elk32.jpg

Seriously if you are concerned about that issue, just use a non-ablative bottom paint in the case interior.

htom
09-02-2009, 03:11 PM
We're doomed.

Vinny&Shawn
09-02-2009, 05:16 PM
You can get lead powder from many pottery supply outfits, but I have to own up to having a "secret source."

My wife Shawn is a potter and none of the suppliers seem to have the lead oxides,maybe you could help some of us out??

Draketail
09-02-2009, 08:08 PM
There is a previous thread that gives the recipe and sources of supply for making your own red lead paint.

go to:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75396

for the recipe.

I've been using the mix for the last year with good results.

Draketail

Stephen
09-02-2009, 08:41 PM
I've tried pottery supply houses here with no luck. Seems that only third world countries are still using the red lead in their glazes. Somebody suggested fireworks manufacturers as a source too.
I haven't had any luck finding it in Canada.

S B
09-02-2009, 09:13 PM
What ceramic supplier sells raw lead compounds to the public? It is illegal. To properly make paint the pigment must be ground into the oil before thinners such as turps are added.

htom
09-02-2009, 11:25 PM
google finds things in books! (http://books.google.com/books?id=D0EpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=red+lead+recipe&source=bl&ots=QAVrP44GOd&sig=2pq8lnK2RSyr5XfWfDwOU7L9SEE&hl=en&ei=RzyfSt-BJJSmMaGNsOoP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=red%20lead%20recipe&f=false)

Both red lead and white lead have been made for thousands of years.

TBTO seems to be nasty stuff, but lots of it seems to be for sale (or at least being made), just not as a citizen purchase. The processes I found started with even nastier things, then cooked those in vacuum at high temperature and obtained it as a side product of making even nastier things. Not a home chemistry experiment. I suspect there's a simpler way.

Lew Barrett
09-02-2009, 11:43 PM
Seattle Pottery Supply still shows it on their site, as listed in the thread linked to by Draketail. I take no credit for the link.

Vinny&Shawn
09-03-2009, 06:24 AM
Lew and Draketail, Thankyou for the links to products we need!!

BarnacleGrim
09-03-2009, 08:18 AM
Anyone have experience with the Interlux products? A few coats of Intertox, then Yacht Primer, then Brightsides or Toplac?

I was hoping to avoid having chasing after the elusive (and illegal) red lead.

rob
09-03-2009, 09:01 AM
If the boat is trailered regular oil paint is fine even below waterline....it will only blister and blow with prolonged submesion, or puddles sitting in the bilge.

I will stick my neck out here and suggest that red lead is not bottom paint. As a stable film it does not leach any appreciable "poison"...it will not prevent fowling, or for that matter kill fungus/mussles. It is a great sealer, and holds up well under water and in that regard can do wonders for keeping rot at bay by limiting moisture ingress into the wood. The toxicity of red lead comes into play when it is later sanded and small particles are either ingested or inhaled. Lead is primarily an acumulation toxin for critters higher up on the complexity curve than fungus. Studies have been done and I will try to find them to site. but if the lead were really acting as a wood preservative in the chemical sense, you would see a film of undamaged wood under red lead paint in rotten timber....I have never seen this.
I like the stuff for lots of things, and it's a great traditional material...but people want to give it virtues it does not posses.

Lew Barrett
09-03-2009, 10:19 AM
That is quite correct Rob, but one acknowledges that as an anti-fungal sealer/primer it is a superior product for faying surfaces and the like. I like white lead paste as well, now that I have a small amount handy to mix into bedding compound and for packing prior to paint.

S B
09-03-2009, 08:37 PM
That is quite correct Rob, but one acknowledges that as an anti-fungal sealer/primer it is a superior product for faying surfaces and the like. I like white lead paste as well, now that I have a small amount handy to mix into bedding compound and for packing prior to paint.
What is this white lead paste, everyone talks about? Whitelead paint does look like something you'ld brush your teeth with.

DuncanvdH
09-04-2009, 01:26 AM
I don't understand the moderators let you continuously discuss how to use illegal products or how to obtain them.

peter radclyffe
09-04-2009, 02:15 AM
What is this white lead paste, everyone talks about? Whitelead paint does look like something you'ld brush your teeth with.
toothpaste bedding compound, brilliant idea, that kills everything , its legal, i cant think of anything more obtainable for wooden boats
your a genius

peter radclyffe
09-04-2009, 02:16 AM
I don't understand the moderators let you continuously discuss how to use illegal products or how to obtain them.
irony is alive & well in hollandhttp://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

DuncanvdH
09-04-2009, 03:50 AM
irony is alive & well in hollandhttp://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

I know what you are getting at, LOL, but that is a common misunderstanding under foreigners. What you are getting at is NOT legal in the Netherlands. However, if you possess less than a certain amount you will not be prosecuted.

This kind of subtle difference is hard to understand for non Dutch. We have a special verb for it: "gedogen"

PeterSibley
09-04-2009, 04:32 AM
Good old backward Australia .You can't buy it here either , but I just bought 5 gallons .

AuSable riverboat
09-04-2009, 09:24 AM
I have two five gallon pails of black lead paint. Could that be used in place of red lead paint?

tapsnap
09-04-2009, 10:55 AM
You can legally buy lead tetraoxide here. http://www.skylighter.com/ Mix it with boiled linseed oil, turpentine and a little Japan dryer and you have red lead primer. It's cheaper than buying it at Kirby's.

peter radclyffe
09-04-2009, 12:27 PM
I know what you are getting at, LOL, but that is a common misunderstanding under foreigners. What you are getting at is NOT legal in the Netherlands. However, if you possess less than a certain amount you will not be prosecuted.

This kind of subtle difference is hard to understand for non Dutch. We have a special verb for it: "gedogen"
its the same here if the cops stop you with less than 2 kilos of red lead, they let you off with a warninghttp://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif