Basic Painting

[Alan Peck]

I am sure there have been many posts regarding painting on this forum.

However, if you will indulge me I would like to ask a really basic question.

I am painting a plywood hull with Interlux Brightsides. The paint looks fairly thick, as least compared with the housepaint I am used to.

I am painting in weather just under 60 degrees at the time of applicaion. I have added very little thinner because I was concerned about sagging on the surfaces that are not horizontal (which is all of them).

However, I ended up with more brush strokes than I like and some sags anyway. Perhaps my thinking was backward and I should have added more thinner so it could be applied thinner and perhaps level more quickly. In addition, since I could put on a thinner coat, maybe I would have had less trouble with sagging.

Any thoughts, especially when using Brightsides?

Thanks

[J. Dillon]

Allan,

I use brightsides ( teal) all the time. My technique is as follows. After the usual preprations I thin a little with "Flood" penatrol and not the more expensive marine variety. When satisfied with the consistency. I roll it on with a foam roller. Now this application will always result in a stipple effect. I immediately brush it out using the widest foam brush I can find "4'". You do have to work reasonably fast with no stops till you get to the end. So take all the necessary breaks before hand. If you stop in the middle you cannot pick up again without leaving a lap mark. I also try to work in the shade if possible as the sun will set it up faster if you work under it. It also helps to have a partner look for "holidays" etc. so that you can attend to them right away.

A team approach would be best but not necessary.

JD

[thechemist]

Adding a thinner to a viscous paint will make it less viscous [meaning flows more easily]. The result of brushing on a coat will be that one applies a thinner coat. The solvents, or most of them, evaporate in short order. The thinner coat will have less tendency to sag as it is a thinner coat. The very small amount of very-slow-evaporating solvent will allow the film to level and develop its gloss.

Thin the paint just enough to where the film brushes out and levels well and does not sag.

[On Vacation]

Oh Brightsides, the most highly overrated paint on the market in today's industry. How they can rate this paint as anything other than a white wash is beyond me. This is what I have found to be only way in our area to sucessfully make a half way decent job.

Primers play the bigest role in using brightsides. Put enough on that you will have a nice uniform finish to coat. Next just accept that it takes at least four to six coats for a GOOD job. This meaning that you will have to put on mulitple coats of thinned layers, experimenting with the amount of thinners needed in the topcoat.

You cannot paint it in any wind, or on a cool surface and shade. Painting in in 60 degrees is really ideal conditions. Brushes play the biggest roll in a uniform coating. I use a brush from Corona, Urethaner. Another brush that is under this one is a Purdy, but it actully cost more.

After all of this, you will only get, at the most, three years of decent finish coat.

If you have an Ace Hardware close by, try some XO Rust. This cost 7.99 a quart. This paint is the generic brand to Rustoleum. But it drys hard, flows out and is longer lasting. my .02

[Scott Rosen]

What Oyster said. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Brightside is lousy paint. I used it for one year and said never again.

Another really good paint is Kirby's. Kirby Paint (http://kirbypaint.com)

It's been favorably reviewed in WoodenBoat (twice). I use the stuff and love it. Best customer service in the world. Best colors. It's a little more expensive than XO-Rust, but it's a lot less expensive than Brightside and infinitely better. You can get Kirby's phone number from the website. Ask to speak with George and he'll get you exactly what you need.

[John Blazy]

Sounds like a good company Scott, but when I hit the page they claimed "our formulas have been passed down from generation to generation . . ." and the first thing I thought of was, I don't want to use coatings from old formulas, considering how far polymer science has come. As a former Radiation cure paint chemist, I am looking for marine coatings that use the best and latest proven raw (for the market cost) urethanes, absorbers, etc. Maybe The Chemist can give insight to why they market this way. I have seemed to shy away from companies that advertize traditional oil varnishes in favor of ones that advertize aliphatic urethanes etc. but am new to marine finishes. - JB

[On Vacation]

The Chemist may tell you what makes up a liquid and how it reacts to heat and cooling and soaking in, but one thing I can tell you, nothing compares to Brightsides. Nothing last as little, that cost so much and such a pain in the rear to put on. I have applied too much of it in many ways and looked a it flatten and suck in dirt form the air to ever use another coat of it. If does not work well on straight wood.

I have discussed this with Interlux reps. They just shake their heads and grin.

There are alternatives in all levels of paints that goes on boats. Now what is it that you are looking for, Mr. Blazy, and how are you willing to spend? What surface are you putting it on?

Keep in mind many of the new urethanes are not meant to be applied in a houshold settings, which we find ourselves in doing home projects. Many "marine paints" are just labeled that way in todays world. Read the ingredients label before you make a judgement as to whether a good homeowners product is less in ingredients than that marine label.

By the way, wusses use flathead screws? No comment. smile.gif

[ 01-08-2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[thechemist]

Originally posted by John Blazy:
Sounds like a good company Scott, but when I hit the page they claimed "our formulas have been passed down from generation to generation . . ." and the first thing I thought of was, I don't want to use coatings from old formulas, considering how far polymer science has come. As a former Radiation cure paint chemist, I am looking for marine coatings that use the best and latest proven raw (for the market cost) urethanes, absorbers, etc. Maybe The Chemist can give insight to why they market this way. I have seemed to shy away from companies that advertize traditional oil varnishes in favor of ones that advertize aliphatic urethanes etc. but am new to marine finishes. - JB*rolling up sleeves* Hah. I'll tell you why they market that way. They are so full of themselves that they think they know wnat everyone else wants to hear. It's arrogance masking stupidity. These people who work in those marketing departments keep their conscience in a jar on a shelf in the closet, right next to the dictionary.

I know of one paint company who has been around for 150 years, and runs a banner ad of a paint brush painting an American flag. It is great for selling a patriotic paint, but says nothing about what the product actually does. I know of a putty manufacturer who proudly advertises they make a rock-hard putty and have made it the same way for 74 [or whatever] years. Extreme positions sell a product because many people buy anything that is at the extremity of some idea.

The marketing industry of this country did not get where it is by teaching people to think for themselves.

Extremism is not the only thing that sells products. One often sees a product displayed against a background of buxom cleavage. It is not logical, but rather pushes a button in the stimulus-response part of a person's mind. All of us are different as individuals, and our minds contain different content.

However, all our minds work in the same way. Similarly, every car is different but yet all cars basically work the same.

Everyone has a stimulus-response mechanism in their mind. An unethical industry [many, in fact] have evolved to take advantage of this mechanism, simply because there ARE unethical people out there..............criminals, in fact, who have succeeded in wrapping themselves in the flag of respectability and "normal" behavior.

When you ask why a paint company sells a crappy paint, you are flying in the teeth of a general public conditioned to think [no...believe, not think. They are conditioned to not think and, further, routinely implanted with false data.] that antidepressant drugs are good things, a medical profession that endorses not only routine use of such mind-altering chemicals but giving it to children [prozac recently was approved for children, did you know?], popular music that endorses and promotes violence, mayhem, murder, sex as degradation and then wonders why our children have poor school test scores and why such a large percentage of some minorities are in jail and why jail does not produce intelligent, ethical responsible citizens and why there is so much cocaine on the streets, and ......

Ooooops. Almost ranted.

[John of Phoenix]

Ah well, back to Home Depot latex.

[John Blazy]

VERY well said Mr. Chemist. And at the risk of getting off-topic - especially the last paragraph. A graphic example to prove this American symbolism - over - substance thinking would be the response you would get if you offered a German man a budweiser, or worse yet, did you see the Wonder bread ads where they were trying to promote its nutritional value from added vitamins? All from the land that eats iceberg lettuce and feels good about it.
Anyway, I am putting all my past high-end furniture building experience along with bookmatched ribbon stripe Mahogony and African Satinwood veneers n solids into the sheer deck of my new boat (stored indoors), and I plan to wet sand and buff the final, so I want a decent plural component urethane topcoat with absorbers galore (will seal with a couple coats of 105/207 first). My problem is that I've seen and done the awesome high-build look over exotic woods like the $30,000.00 desks from Brueton, Dakota Jackson, and Wendall Castle and can accept no less of a look (but without 15 mils of polyester and ten more of Imron buffed down to seven). I know the sun, belt buckles, and sandy towels will snap me back to reality, so I'm looking for a decent middle of the road finish. Any suggestions? Looking at Awlgrip two part poly, and was also considering Interlux . . . - JB

[John Blazy]

And:
- I'll be spraying - not rolling or brushing,
- applying light weight glass cloth to hold seams and hopefully eliminate grain-line telegraphing from post - cure shrinkage (may get weave telegraphing?)
- Have plenty of experience in the cost and application of high-solids plural component coatings - just not exterior.
I looked at the Five Year Clear site and was a little intimidated. - JB

[On Vacation]

Just to stick my nose back in on this topic, the very worse thing you can do to a boat versus a piece of furniture is to create a huge layer, resembling a thickness of piece of plexiglass over a piece of wood on a boat. Next, 105/207 is fine. But a huge thick layer is not. next, clear two part Awlquip will turn to a nice tone of black and you may not like all your fancy dancy woodwork in a year.

If you care to listen to other options that are out there, then there are better material to enhance your great and exotic woods and to show off your ability of fine woodwork.
Regards.

[thechemist]

Putting a hard coating [105/207] between a flexible veneer and a flexible topcoat is not good mechanical engineering. The topcoat should be something that holds up well to UV [and there are difinitely some out there] and it should go on top of something comparable in flexibility to itself and the wood.

[J. Dillon]

You guys haven't convinced me yet. I'll stick with "Brightsides".(teal) I use my boat a lot. 3 to 5 days a week during the season May to Nov. Except for a few dock scuffs the finish looks like the day I launched the boat.

Maybe Kirbys is better but "show me".

Sure Brightsides is tricky to put on but when you get use to it's pecularaties it goes on well.

I do use a porch and deck enamel(aqua) for the insides and it probably takes more abuse then the top sides. It also stands up well but needs to be repainted each season. I could get by and not resurface the outside but I do it any way as it only taks an hour to do the whole boat. A qt will last me 3 seasons easy.( over F.glased 7/16" ply)

The brightwork is Z spar Captains varnish now that's another tale.

I guess it all depends what your're used too. For me Kirbys was too limiting in color selection to even consider.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/pf9290794b59e73ef86dd79bb6f8d71e7/fce56953.jpg

JD

[BradW]

Boy, do I feel inadequate now!

I'm in the stitching phase of assembling a CLC lapstrake canoe as a present for my nephew. As my first project, I'll be happy just to get the darn thing straight. I am 90% sure I will paint it with Kirby's.

1. I don't want a gloss finish, since an 8 year old will be dragging it, paddling it, and fishing from it.

2. Multiple sources (other than this board) have decried Brightsides application ease. I am no great shakes at painting, don't have much room or equipment, and get impatient at too many coats.

3. As a fairly traditional looking craft, I hope to paint it that way.

4. The nephew really likes Kirby's Orange. Yeah, I know, but I promised he could pick the color. I will be deciding the inside color and trim, though!

5. My father used to own an old Hoopers Island deadrise fishing boat, and my notion of wood boat appearance definitely trends more in that direction than piano-finish yacht.

[thechemist]

Clear finishes and pigmented [opaque] paints have many issues that are different , and a few that are common.

Clear coating systems are very prone to user-induced failure, where the film thickness [for a given formulation with some UV-absorber system design.....these things are optimized for different resin systems, and the UV absorber/antioxidant type and balance is also specific to a particlular resin system] is insufficient to prevent the ultraviolet from getting through to the wood and breaking it down, leading to coating failure.

You can use many marginal formulations as pigmented paints, where that resin system, in a clear finish, would go to hell quickly. Opaque mineral pigments block UV.

My previous comments should be seen in the context of applying a clear finish to exterior wood, although the ranting applies to any product whatsoever.

[On Vacation]

Exactly, chemist, my comments were two fold. First ones were addressed at Brightsides, and after the post of covering the fancy woods with glass and resin, I addressed this issue. The 105/207 requires a stable room temperature and maximum thickness to insure you get not cloudy curing finish. This is where I will leave it for now. There are a few combinations that work time and again under real life jobs, but one should be open to trying some samples to see what may work in his situation. If he has such fancy work, this is a place where some careful planning should exsist. Maybe "Varnish Queen" from the oldest city will chime in with her expertise. :D

[ 01-08-2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[Bill Perkins]

John Blazy I like you am not sure I'm shopping for old painting formulas . Better living thru modern chemistry is what I'm hopeing for . As for Flathead , Phillips , and Square Drive screws ; reminds me of those tricky grouping exercises in my grade school work books . Which item does Not belong in this group ?

[John Blazy]

How in the world is a two part clearcoat going to go black? I will probably only get about twenty wet mils on (over four or so coatings), drying down to less than nine, and sanding and buffing to around seven if I'm good, and that is not that thick. My veneer will be epoxied on as well as sealed, so its flexibility isn't that much being almost impreg'd, so that part is "down" so to speak.
Here's a little factiod that influenced me to Awlgrip: The 100+ mph Mahogony runabout "Alpha Z" built by Van Dam Woodcraft used AwlCraft 2000, I think. Don't know anymore than that, but have you seen this boat? It won the Boatdesign.net prize of some sort. It's the most beautiful boat I've ever seen pics of (if you like Ferrari-type boats). The buffed stainless work alone is awesome. See http://www.vandamwoodcraft.com - JB

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

It is in fact "Robertson" screws, but the patent was not honored in the USA. Canadian invention. Okay... so of the two part gloss color paints.... who is the king?

HOLY YIKES :eek: that Alpha Z is really something...If you couldn't get laid driving that thing you's have to go home and shoot yourself. :D

[ 01-08-2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm ]

[On Vacation]

Awlcraft 2000 is not the same as the two part high solids clear that you spoke about earlier to use ove the resin.

Quote:
"Have plenty of experience in the cost and application of high-solids plural component coatings - just not exterior"

The high solids turns dark with age over wood. I have not seem the Van Dam in person, just magazines.

[ 01-09-2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by Oyster:

... 'There are a few combinations that work time and again under real life jobs'...

Do you mean that there are actually ones that do, Oyster Mike ?

I call marine paint, ... torment in a can.

Warren.

ps, If it was easy, we wouldn't enjoy doing it.

[Wild Wassa]

Mr Peck, ... basic painting ? There is no such thing Sir. It is either difficult or even more difficult.

Warren.

ps, about this, ... I am totally confident.

[ 01-09-2003, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[On Vacation]

Its a necessary evil, like clothes. What a pain. :D Yes, there are combinations of resin to clearcoat topcoats that work. The purpose of clearcoating is to show off the wood, not to deform it by covering it with thick coatings. Thick coatings do nothing for the longivity of the finish product.. A uniform smoothe coating is essential to the longivity of the finish along with the proper product for the job. The Riva boat builders took this to a level that very fewAmerican builders chose to, during the era of the clear wooden boats.

Rybovich chose to achieve such a level, and many sportfishing boat builders attempted to copy it. But A lot of sanding and down time was involved along with the use of spar varnishes to reach the level we can do with many up to date finishes nowadays. But there are real draw backs to the new age coatings. Covering wood with a hard finish is just not good unless it is stable. But then you will get Mother Nature working her evils with the sun. The thicker the coating, the more magnification you get. This will break down the topcoat.

Any finish that is too thick has nothing to reinforce it within itself. You may keep a boat in a covered shed, and get by with a lot, but if the coat ever starts to distort or crack, you have a nightmare to fix it. This is not from a lab, this is from real torment of the body talking. smile.gif

[John Blazy]

True words of Wisdom, Oyster. Definitely true about the film thickness being unstable the thicker it gets due to post-cure shrinkage, even over following months due to additional crosslinking in the sun, as well as the evaporation of unreacted residual monomers/diluents, kindof like a vinyl dashboard of a car cracking over time. Simply said, if you lay it on too thick, you'll get cracks.
However, there is a "sweet" spot of film thickness that needs to be achieved (5-7 mils?) due to the UV absorbers and HALS (free-radical scavengers present in some topcoats)that need to be applied in a thick enough "blanket of protection" to be effective. This 'catch 22' is my version of agreeing with y'all that yer always screwed somewhere in painting. White pigment - simple answer to all this!
Oh, and if you use "Robertson" screws, you will definitely pick up the Babes, and if they're from Canada, well, George Clooney might be jealous.

[mhoffman]

Chemist-
so if I want to reduce "sags" in varnish, do I add thinner, or should I put on a thinner coat (brush out more), or add a drier? Or a combination of all three?

All of my build coats went on pretty good, only a couple of drips and sags, but now that the weather has cooled, I guess (my garage has been in the 60's give or take), my last two coats have been an abortion. I hate doing all that prep work, put on expensive varnish only to look the next day and see sags all over the place that have to be sanded out and recoated. The varnish I am using apparently has a fast surface drier but a relatively slow through drier (detco). Any suggestions?

I read on one thread about wiping on the last coat with a rag- that would be a thin coat, but I think that would only work if the varnish had a plasticizer of some sort built into allow adhesion. Even with a light sanding, the scratches would show through unless the previous coat was not fully cured and the subsequent coat "melded" into the previous somehow.

BTW- how's the car restoration coming?
Thanks in advance-
Matt

[gert]

I bought 5 quarts of Kirby's to paint Carina. You MUST add conditioners to this paint in order for it to flow properly, it has a wonderfull "sheen" that is regretably reduced relative to the amount of thinning you do. One of the quarts I had, had little tiny white specs/particles in it; I assumed this was my fault for not properly stirring the paint so I took a second can (never been opened) to the paint store to be adjitated. When I opened it, it also had these spect in it. I sent Kirby the filter and a draw down of the paint but I never heard back from him (about a year ago) Fortunatly all these specs sanded out real well (I suspect they where talc)and I ended up top coating with General Marine paint mixed to my color. My only regret is that Generals marine paint is glossy and I realy did want that soft satin that makes Kirby so atractive. But then again the General does seem to be more wear resistant, Kirby's seems to scuff very easily.

[ 01-09-2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[thechemist]

Originally posted by mhoffman:
Chemist-
so if I want to reduce "sags" in varnish, do I add thinner, or should I put on a thinner coat (brush out more),<snip>To reduce sags one needs to apply a thinner film. Adding thinner [reducer] makes it easier to brush out a thinner[not as thick] film since there is only a certain amount of force the bristle pack of a brush exerts on a liquid film while it is bent and moving. For a more viscous liquid and/or a faster brush stroke, the bent bristle pack rides on a thicker liquid film due to the interplay of shear forces in the liquid and viscous drag forces exerted on the brush bristles. It is a mechanical solution to a mechanical problem. Speaking of which, the 289 restoration is done as regards the drive train, and now needs body repaint. I am sending one of my guys to auto school nights to learn how to do that. The 390 we have yet to get to, due to the press of production business this last year. I gotta hire more people ...... business is increasing faster than my existing people can keep up with it and still have vehicle-restoration-time left over.

[Dale Genther]

gert - Last Feb. I bought some Kirby's white paint and also found white particles in it. I also thought it was my fault. Guess maybe it was not our fault. Since then I filter all of it right before I use it.

[gert]

Dale-I sprayed it on and some of the particles were small enough to pass thru the filter; the result looked and felt like sand paper; probably about 30 specs per sq inch, very uniform.

[ 01-09-2003, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[thechemist]

That was likely some paint-pigment goobers from the dispersing equipment that did not get mixed in and dispersed along with the rest of the pigment. Sometimes we miss a bit in this business. Normally if you are making military-grade stuff it gets pumped through wire-mesh filters and one-thing-or-another. This is good, honest paint made by good, honest workers in genuine factories. The occasional speck of crud is proof it was made by real people. Just run it through a paint-strainer before use.

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by thechemist:
The occasional speck of crud is proof it was made by real people. Just run it through a paint-strainer before use.[/QB]Sorry Sir, but at $250 a tin I expect far more. Standards are dropping, noone will convince me otherwise. I've been stroking black striped off whites, ... I'm now painting Zebra boats.

It's a shame that there is 'such a variety' between the batches now (I do expect batch changes) but not quality changes. I can no longer rely on BoatCraft Pacific's materials (here in Oz). I swore by them 2 years ago, ... now I swear at them. Prices don't come down when quality drops. If we pay for high quality paint we should get high quality paint.

When my wife Helen, asked me, "do you 'need' anything for Christmas"? I told her, ... more pantyhose.

New paints (purchased) needing to be run through filters, something is very wrong.

The term real people, I would call 'an ordinary technician who lacks adequate quality monitoring'.

Warren.

ps, I should have mentioned, that changing to International's Yacht Paint has been a good move.

[ 01-09-2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Alan Peck]

I appreciate everyone's responses. As Wild Wassa said, I guess I have learned that there is no such thing as basic painting. Its either difficult or more difficult.

I did try thinning the paint out and waiting for temperatures closer to 70 degrees F. and the application did go much better.

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

I have a personal dislike of any and all interlux products. I have used a slew of them over the years on glass and wood and have never been happy with any of them. They tend to be overpriced and overrated. There, I feel much better now.

[Buddy Sharpton]

John, a personal opinion/experirnce about getting" furniture grade" finish on exterior mahogany and teak on sailboats. I very much like the Bristol Finish product. Its about a $165 a gallon system. I have used it over West 207/105 epoxy and Smith's CPES stuff, salt and fresh water exposure. Its an acrylic urethane, somewhat softer and more flexible than say Interthane Plus, Imron, or Sterling LPU's. This i feel is its success. I have rolled and or brushed it. You can reapply after about an hour or hour and a half. Get About four or five coats on, let it get hard overnight, and then R.O. sand with 150. Roll and tip about three more thinned coats more carefully, and let that dry overnight. Then wetsand 320/600/1500. Finally buff out with rubbing compound by bonnet or by hand, finish with Finesse It II. You can make invisible repairs to the inevitable dings that come with mahogany coamings and such. It has high UV protection. Its one fault is although purposely tinted to replicate the amber of Captains Varnish, the stabilisers render it somewhat cloudy if you know what you're looking at. But it is an easy to live with finish, even on the Missisippi coast, out in the sun some three years now on my first use of the product.

[John Blazy]

Thanks, Buddy, I'll look into it. A softer, flexible finish would have less of a tendency to crack n dry out. I am still looking for the ultimate topcoat but it may not make that much of a difference. - JB

[ 01-14-2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: John Blazy ]

[Barnacle Bob]

How about System Three's water based epoxy paint? Can thin it with water and clean the brushes with water? Anybody with any experience with this?