Chinese Junk rig and boat plans under 23 ft?

[ChaseKenyon]

replied to a thread and then realized should start a new one:

ummmmmm not to steal your thread, but has anyone seen any good sources for 23 ft or less day sail or weekender junks? On Long Island sound I've noticed a few over the years and they can CAN be very fast.

wooohooo I'm moving the last to a new thread.

Single handed with back handicap so I would need to rig with tabernackle. So Junk style, good sail area, launchable by me, hidden outboard well, either good open space for day sailing with trap cover for overnight or minimal cabin space (probably centered on hull length) , and good turn of speed.


Give us some links here guys and phhotos if you can find them. Iknow we have all seen these designs but I can't remember where I 've seen them over so many years.

CHase

I am serious about building this one!:D:D:D

[rbgarr]

Bolger has several afaik.

[JimD]

CHase, you can put a junk rig on almost any boat you like. Although in my humble opinion they look better on some designs and awkwardly out of place on others. Sounds like you need a shallow draft trailer boat. Do you want one sail or two?

Might look ok on an nis 23:

http://www.nisboats.com/pics/BoatDesignPicsLarge/NIS-23-Layout.jpg

Princess Island Sharpie 22

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princsailing1.jpg

[kenjamin]

Yangtze Pelican

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/YangtzeBoat.jpg

[JimD]

Yangtze Pelican

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/YangtzeBoat.jpg

Um, kenjammin, he asked for this:
...good open space for day sailing ... and good turn of speed.



You gotta be joking. :D I realize its the opposite of the boat you already have but I think the boat you already have is far closer to what is required - with a junk rig, naturally.

[JimD]

Selway Fisher Grace Harwar 21:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/GraceHp1.jpg

8 planks per side which are simply stitched together edge to edge and finished with epoxy and tape. She may be fitted out in many different ways but the standard drawings show her with a steel centreboard which is below the sole level and with plenty of seat/storage spaces. She has an outboard well and the drawings give details of a boom tent and cuddy.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/GraceHarward1.gif

[JimD]

...There is a website I can't seem to find. A French designer (not Vivier) that specializes in junks. They have a full range of them from about 19 feet up to big ocean sailers. They are quasi replicas designed to look authentically Chinese, to a point. I'll keep looking for it...

[kenjamin]

... I think the boat you already have is far closer to what is required - with a junk rig, naturally.

Jim, you must be talking about ol' Xena. Some folks think this is a junk rig and many more think it looks oriental – must be the battens and the bamboo playing tricks on them.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Xena2720sm.jpg

[andrewe]

JimD, I know, there is one always parked in Ars-en-Ré (don't laugh) about 30ft+ Cold moulded. I used to remember the name of the builder, but the vinho is in the light. As you say, makes a range of sizes. Very trad looking, and by account sails well.
A
Owned by the restaurant on the quay, which does great Tex-Mex and Burgers---Plus some good French fast cuisine. ( Wife needs a fix from time to time..)
A

Try jonquedeplaisance.net (after a quick look).

[JimD]

Jim, you must be talking about ol' Xena. Some folks think this is a junk rig and many more think it looks oriental – must be the battens and the bamboo playing tricks on them.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Xena2720sm.jpg

A CY, yes? Beautiful boat! Especially your version. I recall Mr Oughtred saying somewhere how much he despises junk rigs but I bet it would lovely on this design

[JimD]

JimD, I know, there is one always parked in Ars-en-Ré (don't laugh) about 30ft+ Cold moulded. I used to remember the name of the builder, but the vinho is in the light. As you say, makes a range of sizes. Very trad looking, and by account sails well.
A
Owned by the restaurant on the quay, which does great Tex-Mex and Burgers---Plus some good French fast cuisine. ( Wife needs a fix from time to time..)
A

I wonder if they are still in business. Can't seem to find the website.

[andrewe]

Just looked, seems to be in India. But active.
A

[JimD]

Just looked, seems to be in India. But active.
A

Pas de link, mon ami?

[James McMullen]

Someone should ask 2metertroll about his sampan. . . . .

[andrewe]

I googled "Junk rig in france" and got various on jonquedeplaisance.net including one for sale.
The junk rig mob in UK are fairly active and the Jester people are worth a look. Blondie Hasler's (&McCloud) book gives enough to convert any boat to junk.
Beddybise
More tomorrow.
A
Just reread that and "converting to junk" might give negative vibes. I actually like the rig, and nearly went for a 'Badger' build.
A

[JimD]

... jonquedeplaisance.net


That's the one, thanks: http://jonquedeplaisance.net/fr/plans.html

Unfortunately there seems to be nothing between the 4.7 metre and the 9.0 metre designs. Cool boats, though.

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/6/5/3/6/1653613_1.jpg?1168017626000

[WX]

You can put a junk rig on almost any design.
Here's a Junk rig Birdwatcher.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/articles/birdwatcher/jbw2.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/6090d1145696179-junk-rig-sails-pelican_great.gif
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/junk-rig-sails-9490.html

I seriously recommend you get this book.
http://img.flipkart.com/bk_imgs/384/9781888671384.jpg

[JimD]

Welsford's Smack gets very little airtime around here and I think it is unfairly overlooked as a simple build beach/camping boat. Perhaps its the rig that turns people away but that could easily be simplified:

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/smack/smack.gif

I'd like to hear a little more about it from JW himself. Specifically, how it is ballasted and what rig options he'd recommend.

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/smack/index.htm

[andrewe]

That looks nice and practical. but I can't help thinking that the 20ft includes the bowsprit; Or are the guys front line rugby scrum?

JimD have a look at www.cafcom-ars.com (http://www.cafcom-ars.com) for a few more shots and they rent it out if you fancy a try...
A

[JimD]

... I can't help thinking that the 20ft includes the bowsprit...
A

Hmmm. You could be right. Too bad. I think there might be a market for such a quick and simple twenty footer.

[shaunbarrymcmillan]

see Selway Fisher's Pioneer and Tansman

[Yeadon]

I've sailed with 2metertroll's junk rig in my peapod. We could ask him about the rig, which his wife sewed. However, for some reason, it appears he is banned. Must have been a clerical error.

I thought the sail was way cool. Lots of power. Quiet when gybing.

[WX]

Why would 2MT be banned?

[ChaseKenyon]

Ok after discussion with brother Paladin and some study of existing Pelican, Great Pelican, and Super Pelican designs I have a focus on a new derivative.

First one of the best small weekenders I have ever sailed was my late fathers VanDesStat and McGrueder "Siren".

Scaled down tubby version of a 1/4 ton racer. Drop keel not CB and 17.5 ft with full v berths and 6ft 6 inch 1/4 s for us big guys and stil had an lamost 8 ft cockpit for day sailing.

Weighted drop keel and still was able to be towed all over New England buy dads Renault R5 which was actually smaller than a Smart i think. at least in HP and total curb weight.

So we take a pelican and then take it to the super pelican size. Now I want to change it to a V bottom and then also go multi chine. this will put the CB trunk and inside ballast even lower. With my bad back and love of the handiness in port of Yawl rigs i am thinking of a three mast Junk rig. Extend the bow forward into a V with the ply. That and the multichine will have to be developed in half model. I plan to use the 3 /32 architechtural model foam as that has more flexivbility than balsa ply. In reality the foam approaches the bendability of 5 ply 2 CM birch Instrument ply that I am used to bending into DNA strips when heated to 160* plus (sponged wet and just barely kept from burning) in my instrument making life. So the same can be done on the bow with laminated ply sheets. The multi chine gives much more progressive stability and also adds significant capacity. This also alows to move sail CE forward just a tad. With the multi chine development it can be built on permanent bulkheads. Most old junks wer actually built with permanent WATERPROOF BULKHEADS. So front section or two and center under raised cockpit, and aft the last one which is the owners state room so to speak. Now the masts ar unstayed built birdsmouth oversize section with bamboo like "bulkhead every two ft. Same for all spars. Light and strong and stiff. Additional stiffness up to the deck comes from haveing a firepole for rapid triop to the holds set ont hexagonal braces wrapped as fleur de llis back around the masts with the down poles 6 to 8 inches from the mast. Theith two part deck hatches for each compartment you have an emergency acces to each compartment . the tow parts or the hatch are designed to run with non stretching pure hemp or bamboo fiber lines so as you go down you grab either half and they automatically close and seal watertight in proper sequence.

compartmants are normally accessed by recedding vertical ladders. if you go down a vertical ladder it is actually faster and safer if the ladder rails move away from you in a very shallow French curve as you descend. Done deal. If I can handle it with my total trashe dback anyone can. you have to make the movement fizxtures work with you body's ease not convention.

I figure it can be done in about 19.75 FT which gets one under the 20ft higher registration taxes. the bowpsrit is extra as is the yoke for the mizzen on the back as they are easily removable and storable as in the original Pelican design.

THe continuous coaming and cabin sides allow a self draining raised cock pit floor. THat in turn allows a cheap cog belt driven feather and reversing prop driven by the ubiquitous $350 5hp Honda four stroke lawnmower engine sitting under the cockpit.(standard recoil starter) good for 8 knots easy.

THe angle of the stem is set to match the angle and step for the forward angled traditional junk forward mast. 1000 years of evolutions are hard to argue with. So the forward mast is chained to the stem. the fore sail depends on the removable bowsprit anyway.

Center mast steps and is locked /chained to the watertight bulkhead of the aft section of the forward hold. then the mizzen mast is likewise chained to the aft compartment bulkhead.

with the lowering of ballast and the drop (leaded ) keel we should be able to hoist upwards of 350 sq ft of sail in light air. the benefits of the three junk sails is they can all be easily reduced ( even by me) to suit conditions and reduced and balanced to give true neutral helm in most wind and sailing conditions.

As a lifetime racer and experienced "Slot effect" controller I think that the balance and slot control of the tri junk rig is unsurpassed by any modern rule based variants.

SMUGGLERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE RULE BOOK AND HAVE NOT FOR THE CLOSE TO 2000 YEARS OF JUNK RIGS.

Paladin is already helping me work on this one.
( thanks Chuck)


CAn we do it together ? can we create the first WBF

"Ensemble Cast" boat design?

If we do this then I would need any serious design input to be copied to me PM or direct so to log all the designers as copyright holders in partnership.

I can sketch and design and visualize in 3D with full rotation and destructive testing and structural integrity in my head (27 years as a robotics engineer).

I am not a Cad designer. and I am not a blueprint artist either.

plus I know just enough from a lifetime (well at lest 45 years of it) of boating and boat building to really be shocked by how much I do not know.

Post questions and I'll use them to expand the info.
I have already started Tesla style back brain performance and stability test on the final product vision.

Chase:D:D:D

And thanks so much to all of you for welcoming me into the forum and for your trust and kindness. (the wife of 35 years reminds me I can be hard to take a lot of the time):o

[JimD]

the bowpsrit is extra as is the yoke for the mizzen on the back as they are easily removable and storable as in the original Pelican design.


Why a bowsprit if its to be a three masted junk or did I miss something?

[JimD]

Some inspiration for you. A thee masted junk rig that last I heard sailed for the Queen Charlotte Islands a couple years ago:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c3f5f5674e00000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c242c986cd00000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[kenjamin]

I think you are on the right track for making a small boat with amazing capacity. The part that bothers me is the lawnmower engine but I'm very prejudiced by owning a 4 HP four stroke outboard designed for the marine environment. Better still is my outboard's remote tank which enables it to theoretically run for days without refueling. Do you really want to be pouring gas in a rocking boat and probably at the worst possible moment?

You sound like too creative a person to consider a much easier path to junk rigged bliss but I'll mention it anyway for the purpose of discussion– an existing design by a real live (and very helpful) designer, John Welsford's Swaggie:

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Swaggie.gif

[ChaseKenyon]

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Chinese Junk rig and boat plans under 23 ft?
Some inspiration for you. A thee masted junk rig that last I heard sailed for the Queen Charlotte Islands a couple years ago:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c3f5f5674e00000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c242c986cd00000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/


Very similar to the vision I have.
Thanki you







Kenjamin, Daughter Theresa is visiting as we are abut to head out to go to the "Idols" concert at the Verizon Center Arena.

Showed her you curved mast and told her the origin of it.


She another Suma Cum Laude Mensa member siad that's cool, very logical, How come no body else thought of that?

For me I like the photos I've seen it appears to have excellent draw and aerodynamics.

Chase:D:D

[kenjamin]

Hey Chase,

It was only after building the first prototype that it occurred to me that going to windward the design has much to offer. The original intent was to shut up my loud obnoxious fishing buddy who complained effectively about the old straight mast being in the way of fishing. So I glued one up that conformed to the gunwale when stored.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Doryskiffsailing-sm.jpg

In between the first prototype and the second the idea got so good in my wee little brain that I tried to talk my employer, Florida State University, into pursuing a patent and to my surprise, they've taken the ball (and 60% ownership) and they're running with it. I figured 40% of something is a lot better than 100% of nothing (which is what I would have had if it were up to me to fund the patent process).

Thanks for your comments and good luck with your build.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/HeadedHome.jpg

[WX]

You sound like too creative a person to consider a much easier path to junk rigged bliss but I'll mention it anyway for the purpose of discussion– an existing design by a real live (and very helpful) designer, John Welsford's Swaggie:


http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=Swaggie&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

[GaryK]

Some inspiration for you. A thee masted junk rig that last I heard sailed for the Queen Charlotte Islands a couple years ago:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c3f5f5674e00000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c242c986cd00000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Jim, that is a lovely looking boat.

For the record, I tried to design a 3 masted rig for my Benford but no way could I get the CE forward enough without messing the interior too much. Plus hanging a sail over the stern like that leaves no room for a steering wind vane..

[WX]

Hey hey GaryK, were you bin mate?
How's the Badger coming along?

[GaryK]

Hey hey GaryK, were you bin mate?
How's the Badger coming along?

I been no where m8. I've glued 4 pieces of wood onto the Badger in the past 2 months. Been too wet around here..

[WX]

Pity we can't swap weather for a week, we could use a bit of rain now.
Glorious sunshine here, 25c outside right now.

[2MeterTroll]

Well Chase
for what its worth i would look at 30' and under. get a number cruncher to go over the blake lines at thirty and figure out a house for it.

the sampan hull i have flat rocks! I have been on boats my whole life and i seldom say anything great about a hull but this one is a sweet deal. cheap and fast to build and stable. just get the sails sized right and i think you will like it. heck if you wend your way out here i will take you out in Tari Tari just to prove it. (sides i want to yell at you a bit about your freeking ROV controlls :) )

[Plumbtex]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2657/3925445294_ffb7bc28fe.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3925442360_4ba6a9a72d.jpg A couple of pics of my Jim Michalak designed Caroline at the finish of the Texas 200. The rig is my own invention and is a work in progress.
Chris http://http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3925442360_4ba6a9a72d.jpg

[bucheron]

That looks nice and practical. but I can't help thinking that the 20ft includes the bowsprit;

Yes according to the site the hull is 16ft.

Also it is designed by Stuart, as is the "Swiftsure" which amounts to a simplified scale model of an 18th century naval sloop. It looks like great fun and I hope someone builds one, or more.

I am mystified who Stuart is.

[ChaseKenyon]

2MT where have you been lately?

Missed you.



Well Chase
for what its worth i would look at 30' and under. get a number cruncher to go over the blake lines at thirty and figure out a house for it.

the sampan hull i have flat rocks! I have been on boats my whole life and i seldom say anything great about a hull but this one is a sweet deal. cheap and fast to build and stable. just get the sails sized right and



even if you have before could you post some photos?

Also input on sailing characteristics.


CHase:D

[JimD]

Yes according to the site the hull is 16ft.

...I am mystified who Stuart is.

Dang, it would make a great 20 footer. I am mystified who Stuart is, too.

[2MeterTroll]

here CC the first bit is the build on Tari Tari and you can get plenty of views as she progresses.

the second bit is a bunch of photos of her rig on Tim Yeadon's boat Big Food. I believe the Big Food is about 5 feet shorter than we are.

soon we will have more pics of Tari sailing and some close ups of her rig.

http://picasaweb.google.com/eritter/BlakeSampan2009#