Gaff Rigged with an outboard well.

[Jpotter]

Greetings All!

I have stumbled into this pool of knowledge because I am planning on building a sailboat. I have read all of the advice posted here and much of it is good. Let me start by stating what I want my boat to do.

1. No larger than 20 feet.
2. Beachable
3. Cabin for boat camping.
4. An outboard well. (I think that a motor hanging off the back is ugly)
5. Gaff Rig with Clubfoot Jib and Bowsprit.
6. Single handling will sometimes be necessary.

Right now we live in western NC and all the sailing we do is on smallish lakes. We currently have a West Wight Potter 15 and are really happy with it. However we may someday move back to the Chesapeake Bay area and do not want a boat limited to "protected waters only"

I am in love with the LOOK of the Stevenson Projects Weekender, however I have not read any positive things about it's capabilities. Other than those who have built them and I can't imagine that they might be at all biased......

I have built two boats already one is a plywood rowboat covered in glass and the other is a foam core glass covered dinghy which I still have and use quite a bit. So I am looking for a pretty plywood box with a hidden motor and an old-timey gaff rig. I realize I might have to just take the rig from a Weekender and transplant it onto a salty looking hull from some ancient Popular Mechanics plans.....

Any suggestions?

Thanks tons.

John

[kenjamin]

I really like John Welsford's Pilgrim. I don't know if a cuddy cabin is an option but maybe a dodger would do what you want. Anyway, check it out:

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/pilgrim/index.htm

[ChaseKenyon]

In that size boat has anyone even thought about the advantages Of going to a JUnk Rig?

It would seem to me that it would be Ideal. Main reason is you can carry enough sail area for real light air situations even if you only use it all once in a great while. Plus, if caught in some weather it is real easy to reduce sail area. Another advantage is the ability to got to Yawl mizzen sail area up, last as you pick up a mooring or equiv of jib only if docking and so on.

Seems to me to be an unusual (around here in New England) , but a configuration with 1000s of years of development to be flexible and sail in all kinds of conditions.
All of the above single handedly.


Hummmmmm not to steal your thread, but has anyone seen any good sources for 23 ft or less day sail or weekender junks? OnLong Island sound I've noticed a few over the years and they can CAN be very fast.

wooohooo I'm moving the last to a new thread.


Chase

[TerryLL]

Greetings All!
4. An outboard well. (I think that a motor hanging off the back is ugly)
John

Welcome to the Forum.
An outboard well is a fairly simple installation in most shallow hulls, and very simple in a flat-bottomed hull like a dory or sharpie. BUT, a well does present an array of problem that hanging the motor on the transom does not. A compromise solution might be a through-the-transom well.

Here's a design for your consideration:

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/mist.jpg

http://www.cmdboats.com/index.htm

[gert]

Nice Boat; as above
http://www.cmdboats.com/images/mist_launched_2006.jpg

[Jpotter]

Thanks for all the input. I really like the "Mist" by Cheseapeake Marine Design. I have book marked their page and put them on the list.

[James McMullen]

Check out Devlin's website for some other Mist-like sorts of boats. I do think the Mist is pretty cute, though.

[Yeadon]

This sounds like a fun project. One thing to consider... if you're going to trailer this boat, the gaff might be a bit involved to set up over and over. An unstayed rig would be quicker.

While it is fun to talk to people in the parking lot at the ramp about "that funny looking sail," it's more fun to actually hustle it up and go sailing.

[Thorne]

A lot depends on how "seaworthy" it needs to be, and how much the trailering & setup capabilities will be balanced against that seaworthyness. A deep keel makes for safer sailing in heavy weather, but is harder to trailer, launch and operate in shallow waters.

The 19'8" Chebacco may be an excellent choice, and there is an active builders/owners group with internet resources. Not much in the clubfoot jib and bowsprit department, but otherwise seems to meet your needs.

Don't know if you can add an outboard well or not...

http://www.chebacco.com/
http://www.sailingtexas.com/sbolgerchebacco100.html

http://www.instantboats.com/images/chebacco.gif

http://www.shipyardraid.ca/images/Fullgallop-avri-05-S.jpg

[Peerie Maa]

Cape Cutter (http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm) is another possibility.

[Wayne Jeffers]

. . . Don't know if you can add an outboard well or not...

The original Chebacco (cold molded) had an outboard well. I suppose you could modify the sheet ply or lapstrake version to add a well, but the outboard arrangement as drawn is far more practical, if less attractive.

Mist is interesting. I ordered study plans a long time ago. I needn’t have bothered. It had less information than the article in WB about 15 years ago. I understand that builders don’t want to give too much information before someone pays for plans, as someone my try to pirate the design. But I need some basic information before I will pay for plans. For instance, I want to know how long the bunks are because I won’t build to a plan that won’t allow me to stretch out a little at night. (I’m only 5’ 10” and I have found plans where the bunks are shorter than this.) Is that too much to ask? Anyhow, after I received the study plans, I sent an email to the designer with a couple of simple questions. It went unanswered. I figured if he was this unresponsive before he got my money, how much help could I expect afterward if problems came up.

I don’t know if you can tell from the on-line photo, but Mist does have an outboard well, off-center to starboard.

Most flat bottomed boats can be modified for a well. Bear in mind that this will rob you of cockpit space, perhaps more than you realize.

Wayne

[JimD]

Shallow enough to beach but you'd better be sure the tide will be there to float you off cuz there's plenty of ballast in the bilge:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/WSwand1.gif

19'6" White Swan Particulars
LOD19'6"5.95mBeam7'3"2.21mHull Mid Depth3'3"0.99mDraft1'4"/4'4"0.4/1.32mSail Area223 sq.ft20.7 sq.mApprox. Dry Weight2800 lbs1270 kgBallast800 lbs363 kgMaximum Headroom5'2"1.58mNumber of berths3
Hull Shape
U shaped - flat bottom panel with 3 planks per sideConstruction MethodsStitch and tape, ply over frame and strip plankMajor plywood requirements for hull4 x 6mm sheets
23 x 9mm sheets
8 x 12mm sheetsGuidance UseEstuary, coastal, cross channelDrawing/Design Package10 x A1 drawings + 15 x A4 instruction sheetsAdditions and alterations included with the plansAlternate centreboard arrangement with board completely below the cabin sole.
Inboard engine arrangement.
Lift cabin top.
Moulds and jig etc for strip plank construction.http://www.selway-fisher.com/PC1620.htm

[Jpotter]

We are already used to talking to people at the launch ramp, gas stations, rest stops, restaurants etc. I am not sure why but our little Potter really gets lots of attention.

[Thorne]

Potters are Cuuuuute!

Nice wooden boats can be cute, too -- but more often "pretty" (especially if you glop on the varnish). I get lots of attention at ramps and on the water with both of my wooden boats -- took some time getting used to it, but now I enjoy the compliments.

[Sayla]

That boat at the top of the web page meets those six criteria, and I imagine it's quite a seaworthy boat - but not plywood - it's a Farne Islander designed by Iain Oughtred. I reckon you could build it strip timber or cold-moulded.

http://users.tpg.com.au/landsend/farne1.jpg



Also check out the Cape cutter 19 - I think it meets those six criteria as well, and it's plywood
http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm


cheers,
Sayla

[gert]

Cape Cutter 19 gorgeous boat:
http://www.dixdesign.com/cc19%20brooke1.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/3858976705_986d2fc09e.jpg

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dixdesign.com/cc19%2520brooke1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dixdesign.com/budget.htm&usg=__qB0CTj1Z7hT6hpKOvmU_mJm0Ksc=&h=370&w=350&sz=39&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=UWPe6PKnYAYcKM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcape%2Bcutter%2B19%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3De n%26sa%3DG


This is the image that almost hooked me into building her:
http://www.dixdesign.com/Zest%20Table%20Bay%202.jpg

[andrewe]

Another vote for the Cape Cutter,fast and pretty. Less work would be Devlin's Winter Wren as it is stitch and fillet single chine. Comes in full, but shallow keel or dagger for less draft. Included in the plans are an 'Offshore' cockpit with a small foot-well covered by a sliding hatch. Both Dix and Devlin designed for less than ideal conditions at sea. An offset outboard well could be fitted to WW, a c/line one is standard in the CC, as is a self draining cockpit.

The Weekender, apart from being much smaller at 16ft, is OK for very sheltered waters (inland lakes or rivers) but there are much better boats that use no more ply. Best forget about it. And the rig is not that efficient compared to the above two.
A

[Jpotter]

That is some very helpful advice. The list so far includes;

1 CMD - Mist
2 Glen L Designs - Fancy Free
3 Devlin's - Winter Wren
4 Selway Fisher's - White Swan
5 Dudley Dix - Cape Cutter
6 Francois Vivier's - Meaban

All of these are really almost perfect. I am really in love with Meaban but I think her construction is a bit above my pay grade. I really want to have her on the water in less than 24 months.

Can we vote on these 6? All comments are welcome. Especially any major flaw or short comings with either design or designer.

Thanks again guys and I will post photos as soon as I start building.

John

[gert]

Francois Vivier's - Meaban
http://www.vivierboats.com/Img/Mealo_01_360.jpg

Devlin's - Winter Wren
http://www.members.shaw.ca/jamie.orr/Montague/last%20y1.jpg


Glen L Designs - Fancy Free
https://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/sailboat-images/dsn-ffre.jpg

Your desired build time is optomistic ;) (so was mine) I'm partial to clinkers, the Cape is probably the "best" boat in this lot IMHO, but because of your build time I would go with Fancy Free (thats my vote)

[JimD]

1 CMD - Mist
2 Glen L Designs - Fancy Free
3 Devlin's - Winter Wren
4 Selway Fisher's - White Swan
5 Dudley Dix - Cape Cutter
6 Francois Vivier's - Meaban

1, 2, or 3 would be the quickest, cheapest build. Of the three Winter Wren might sail the best but I'd rather have a centerboard than a daggerboard.

[dredbob]

Look at the Atkins designs also.

In particular, New Sister (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/NewSister.html) seems to fit in this list.

---
Bob

[Sayla]

I think you need to keep in mind this point that you made



do not want a boat limited to "protected waters only"


In reality, none of these are bluewater designs - seaworthiness is relative - if someone offered me a weekend out in these boats I would have thought that Fancy Free would be the first to suffer a weathering sea - then I suppose white swan, and Mist - I think the Cape Cutter looks the more capable, but I believe there are other designs around in similar class - check Atkins, Woodenboat. Here's one that's similar to Mist http://www.thomassondesign.com/choosing/small_boats/sharpie_600.aspx#bilder The designer states "self-righting in a knockdown", so I suppose that's comforting for starters.

I would have to agree about the centreboard over the daggerboard - I've had a daggerboard, and I know how fast you move (and freak out) when the daggerboard hits.


Sayla

[Jpotter]

Sayla,

Thanks for the information on "Sharpie 600" she seems to be everything I am looking for. . So far I have kept track of how many times I have been to each of the designers websites and have decided to drop some boats from the list.

The revised list is.

1. Björn Thomasso's Sharpie 600
2. CMD's - Mist
3. Glen L's - Fancy Free

I am really leaning towards number one. She is 19.6 feet, around 1500 lbs, you can lower the mast while under way. Seaworthy enough for coastal cruising. Plus self-righting. Couple that with ease of building and her looks, I think I have found my boat. However, has anyone sailed or even seen one in person?

Thanks so so much for all the chatter!

John

[Thorne]

Some discussions of the design, the first including someone who had sailed in a prototype of sorts -

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56446

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum//showthread.php?t=60973

[JimD]

1. Björn Thomasso's Sharpie 600...
Plus self-righting.

Far be it from me to question the designer's statement...but I wouldn't want my life to depend on how self righting it turned out to be in real world conditions.

[Sayla]

Another design (check the photos too) that leans to your requirements is Atkins "Nanny Gay" http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/NannyGay.html Looks easy to build, comfortable size - cheap plans, you could buy them like buying study plans. Doesn't even have a centreboard to build or care for, or care about - not a self-draining cockpit, but I wonder if that could be adjusted for.

I'll second JimD regarding the "real world conditions" - self righting in a pond is certainly different from having the rig pushed under by wind on the bottom of the hull - safety is a more general issue and state of mind. Check this site (and others) for further issues surrounding safety and small boat selection http://www.smallcraftadvisor.com/seaworthy and take the test.

Have you looked at Eun Mara, by Iain Oughtred

Sayla

[Jpotter]

Well, I have come to a decision, we are going to undertake the construction of the Sharpie 600. Now all we have to do is clean out the garage and perhaps sell a few things......http://www.wwpotterowners.com/images/Jen.jpg

[James McMullen]

Yay! Sharpie 600! Are you going to use my favorite rig (http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=668)?

[jimkeen]

You have received some very notable suggestions. My contribution is to skip the Stevenson Weekender. It was the first boat I built, received tons of compliments. Even had a guy in a huge bleach bottle, say it was the best looking boat on the water one day, as we sailed near two H12 1/2. Not sure if he had cleared the salt from his glasses, we took the compliment anyway. It is only practical for small lakes and very protected waters. Because it was so tender my wife will not go near a small skiff type sailing vessel for the rest of her life. BTW we learned to sail on Turnabouts. My most recent build was a CMD Redwing 18. A really pretty boat and a pleasure to build. Karl was more than gracious with his help and guidance. I am sure building the Mist would follow my experience. My next sailboat, must be able to solo, will be either the Mist or Devlins Wompus Cat. Good luck with your decision.

[huisjen]

Mist is interesting. I ordered study plans a long time ago. I needn’t have bothered. It had less information than the article in WB about 15 years ago. I understand that builders don’t want to give too much information before someone pays for plans, as someone my try to pirate the design. But I need some basic information before I will pay for plans. For instance, I want to know how long the bunks are because I won’t build to a plan that won’t allow me to stretch out a little at night. (I’m only 5’ 10” and I have found plans where the bunks are shorter than this.) Is that too much to ask? Anyhow, after I received the study plans, I sent an email to the designer with a couple of simple questions. It went unanswered. I figured if he was this unresponsive before he got my money, how much help could I expect afterward if problems came up.
Wayne

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/mist.jpg

Wayne, I have a set of plans for Mist and have been studying them for a while. The v-berth does appear to be over 6', but it's a v-berth. If there's someone on the other side then you have to sleep with your feet together up against the hull where it meets the stem, and so do they.

If I were to build her, I'd be more inclined to put a bunk along side the CB trunk, portside, with the sleeper's feet under the port cockpit bench. That would put you closer to the CG for a more stable nights sleep. I'd arrange stowage and galley facilities forward. Maybe I'd set up a second bunk, forward to port, with that sleeper's head where the original design shows the marine head. (A small portable head could be accommodated somewhere, somehow.) Two could sleep head to head if they didn't want to curl up together in the first bunk. I'd move the companionway offcenter to starboard so that you're not coming down on top of the trunk, and make it just 2' wide instead of three. And I'd eliminate the motor well and have a spot to mount a small electric motor off the stern with the batteries in ballast position.

Dan

[Dale H]

I agree with Sayla, the Eun Mara would suit these requirements just fine.

I have tons of Eun Mara stuff and links here:

www.alistego.com

Dale