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Nanoose
08-24-2009, 11:23 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8219443.stm

What say ye? Too young?

Shang
08-24-2009, 11:28 PM
Oh shucks, I thought it was another porn thread...
...haven't heard from Dutch since he changed his sign-on...

Duncan Gibbs
08-24-2009, 11:40 PM
Sounds like a good way for the Dutch Government to stuff up a young woman's life and break her spirit. Stupidity abounds! :mad:

Nanoose
08-24-2009, 11:41 PM
Makes one think and wonder....

I believe EnZed has some regulations that must be met before one can head out to sea as well. Perhaps this is no different?

htom
08-25-2009, 12:37 AM
I think that measuring such readiness by calendar years is beyond stupid. I don't know if she's ready for such a challenge or not, but I do know that she could be, and that a great many who are twice and thrice her age are not.

seanz
08-25-2009, 12:51 AM
Makes one think and wonder....

I believe EnZed has some regulations that must be met before one can head out to sea as well. Perhaps this is no different?

This is a lot different.........


A junior education minister recently told parliament that "a solo voyage around the world would not be in the best interests of the child".

The people making the decision about you and (especially) your boat's fitness to go off-shore are from the maritime industry.....not social workers or the education department.

Nice troll Deb.
:p

She's too young but making her a ward of the state that just reeks of 'small problem, big hammer'.

Glen Longino
08-25-2009, 01:04 AM
Call me old fashioned, but I would not have let one of my daughters set off around the world in a small boat at 13.
Hell, I wouldn't have let them drive to the grocery store at 13.
I think this is sensationalism and celebrity seeking.
What's next? A 9 year old kid?

damnyankee
08-25-2009, 04:33 AM
definitely too young I mean imagine what would happen if she made land in an African country and was raped or murdered. Would you let your 13 year old daughter go out in new york or LA at night alone?

No you wouldn't so there is no way that anyone can justify her sailing around the world at this age. It wouldn't matter either if it was a boy.

I also think that the recent incident of a young child wing walking with his grand father is plainly stupid.

I think their is a difference. By societies convention 13 year olds are not able to function independently. for more than a few hours at a time. She may be a top rate sailor who could do the voyage technically, but their is more to this than just the sailing skills. Like other posters mentioned there are adult risks.
The other issue is the gardians of a child doing something potently dangerous with that child. In this case the child is supervised by adults. Its now different than other dangerous things kids do. I'm certain many wouldn't let their kids do that, not sure I would either, but I'm not going to tell other people what to do (or not do) in this case.
I think these things are related as well. Once apon a time it wasn't unusual for girls as young as 13 to get married. Now is gone from that to weird to criminal. We are becoming over protective of our children, not giving them the chance to become adults.

Christopher

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-25-2009, 05:29 AM
Hmm. I don't mind my 14 year old singlehanding his dinghy, but I would not want him making a singlehanded coastal passage in Mirelle. At sixteen, maybe.

Larks
08-25-2009, 05:55 AM
Sounds like a good way for the Dutch Government to stuff up a young woman's life and break her spirit. Stupidity abounds! :mad:

Not so sure about that Duncan, I could drive a tractor when I was five, a car competently when I was ten years old and a truck when I was 14, but do you think the Government should have worried about breaking my spirit by keeping me off the road until I was 18?

No matter how isolated the idea of sailing around the world may seem, she would be responsible for navigating a reasonably sized vessel in busy waterways and she and Dick Dekker will no doubt have every expectation that every country that she comes near will take responsability for rescuing her if something goes wrong.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-25-2009, 06:00 AM
There's a bit of a puzzle, here, to me.

How did the Government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands get to hear of this?

If a parent wants to lend a child his or her boat, that's not something to attract the attention of the Government.

So there must have been organised publicity for this, as a "stunt".

In which case, I suspect the father's motives and disapprove of the enterprise.

Hwyl
08-25-2009, 06:00 AM
From sailing anarchy

Unborn Fetus to Sail Around the World
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/fetus2.jpg_sml.jpg (http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/fetus2.jpg)On the heels of the announcement (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-sunderland19-2009aug19,0,3308989.story) that 15 year-old Abby Sunderland is going to attempt to break her 'older' brother, 17 year-old Zac's recent record as the youngest nonstop sailor around the world, The Unborn Sailor Association announced their new effort to break the record.
An unborn fetus named 'Baby Ernesto', will attempt to sail around the world, non stop and unassisted to become the youngest sailor ever to accomplish this. "Given the fact that it is hard to be younger than an unborn, we feel confident that this record will truly stand the test of time. When we're done, people will refer to Abby Sunderland as 'Granny."
Details of the effort have yet to be obtained, but a picture of 'Baby Ernesto' has been obtained showing BE training to deal with pirates. Pro life advocates are thought to be supporting the voyage of BE, "heralding the contributions to society of the unborn, as evidenced by Baby Ernesto."

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-25-2009, 06:02 AM
Good one.

downthecreek
08-25-2009, 06:18 AM
From sailing anarchy

Unborn Fetus to Sail Around the World
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/fetus2.jpg_sml.jpg (http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/fetus2.jpg)On the heels of the announcement (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-sunderland19-2009aug19,0,3308989.story) that 15 year-old Abby Sunderland is going to attempt to break her 'older' brother, 17 year-old Zac's recent record as the youngest nonstop sailor around the world, The Unborn Sailor Association announced their new effort to break the record.


Isn't Zac's record about to be broken by Mike Perham? I believe he is due in any day now, having started his voyage at the age of 16.

The fetus will have to look sharp. There may be some smart sperms breathing down it's neck...... :)

Chris Coose
08-25-2009, 06:45 AM
definitely too young I mean imagine what would happen if she made land in an African country and was raped or murdered. Would you let your 13 year old daughter go out in new york or LA at night alone?



You're joking..... right?
No I guess you're not.

Aren't the Dutch the people who send little boys to stick their fingers in dykes?
Nanny sate hypoctites.

Tom Montgomery
08-25-2009, 06:48 AM
Just what is Dutch attempting to do athwart a sailor?

Tylerdurden
08-25-2009, 07:23 AM
It may be safer for her to be at sea at this time in history?;)

Nanoose
08-26-2009, 11:18 AM
How did the Government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands get to hear of this?

If a parent wants to lend a child his or her boat, that's not something to attract the attention of the Government.

So there must have been organised publicity for this, as a "stunt".

In which case, I suspect the father's motives and disapprove of the enterprise.

The article states the gov't became aware via the father's request for his daughter's 2 year absence from school.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-26-2009, 11:22 AM
I should have read the article more carefully.

I have since heard the opinion of the English boy who is about to become the youngest to do the trip. He seems to think she should be allowed to get on with it. He knows more about it than I do, so I'll defer to him.

Nanoose
08-26-2009, 11:22 AM
But we don't think 16 year old boys are too young to do this. And, typically, girls mature faster than boys and one could posit she, at 13, is as mature and responsible as a 16 year old male.

She obviously has a lot of sea time, including a 7 week solo stint at the age of 11.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-26-2009, 11:23 AM
Yes, I agree.

Nanoose
08-26-2009, 11:30 AM
Another thought: evidently she was born during her parents' 7 year cruise, so she is a 'boat kid'. Now, the boat kids we have met and known are WAY more mature than landlubbers. The differences are like night and day.

She may be young, but it is irrelevant to the question of whether she is capable of doing this.

Osborne Russell
08-26-2009, 11:31 AM
Two questions, not one.

1. Good idea?
2. Who decides, and by what authority?

Paul Pless
08-26-2009, 11:38 AM
I should have read the article more carefully.

I have since heard the opinion of the English boy who is about to become the youngest to do the trip. He seems to think she should be allowed to get on with it. He knows more about it than I do, so I'll defer to him.Does this mean you've changed your mind regarding your son and Mirelle?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-26-2009, 11:40 AM
Yes. I have changed my mind. If he can pass the Royal Yachting Association's Coastal Yachtmaster examination during this winter, he'll be welcome to borrow her.

Paul Pless
08-26-2009, 11:47 AM
rofl

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-26-2009, 11:57 AM
No, seriously, he can hand reef and steer her all right but since he has not done a seven week solo trip I'd want to be sure of his navigation and colregs.

TimH
08-26-2009, 12:14 PM
Looks like a race to be the youngest

http://www.youngestround.com/

http://www.lauradekker.nl/

seanz
08-26-2009, 04:12 PM
Yesterdays news now........:rolleyes:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10593230




Laura Dekker is battling child protection authorities in her Netherlands homeland who are taking the case to court in a bid to stop the teenager from making the trip.
But the teenager, who was born on a yacht off the coast of New Zealand during a seven-year world trip her parents were making, is now looking to gain residency and a New Zealand passport to get away from Dutch authorities and make the solo trip from here


This was on TV news last night.......much whittering ensued.
As I understand it the NZ regulations only apply to NZ registered yachts so as long as the yacht has a Dutch flag she's good to go.

Anyway, stupid move on the parents part to ask for two years off school.....should've asked for 6 months, then reapplied for leave as necessary.
:)

Nanoose
08-26-2009, 04:40 PM
Thanks for the update. Questions:
1. does this mean she's got to be physically out of her country by Friday, "just in case"
2. would she have to physically sail from NZ, i.e. ship her boat there? Could be a bit of an undertaking, even assuming her Sept. 1 sail date only applies if leaving from the Netherlands.

seanz
08-26-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't think her NZ passport will show up before Friday.

If I was her, I'd be in my boat and off across the Channel. If you have parents that are cool enough to give you your own boat when you're 13, no way would you risk becoming a ward of the state.

Duncan Gibbs
08-27-2009, 05:15 AM
I've just emailed the NL government and given them my opinion of their idiocy.

Hwyl
08-27-2009, 09:00 AM
Yes. I have changed my mind. If he can pass the Royal Yachting Association's Coastal Yachtmaster examination during this winter, he'll be welcome to borrow her.


I'm assuming under the consistent application of rules doctrine, that you already have your YM Andrew, otherwise, it would be folly to leave the mooring.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-27-2009, 09:17 AM
I don't think the gentlemen at Lloyds who insure my boat see things quite that way, Gareth.

peterAustralia
08-27-2009, 08:36 PM
It was not that long ago that children without parents were taken away to the poor house. The history of governments has tended to be rather mercenary as opposed to enlightened. In recent days it appears that the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.

Children have worked at seas for centuries, it used to be standard practice. If this girl wants to go, then let her go. She might die, yes. But there are plenty more worse things that teenagers do. From a personal point of view, I feel that when I was young I was not permitted to do the things I wanted to do (go for a solo 2 day bushwalk when I was 15), and I still have resentment about that decades later.

I believe that people grow and develop by doing things. I believe that staying home and doing nothing is destructive. So I think letting here go would probably be in here best interests. An alternative might be, say yes she can go, but she has to wait a year first.

Larks
08-27-2009, 09:24 PM
Nah, I think it is foolish and reckless and may well put the lives of others at risk and may also have a far more negative impact on a 13 year old childs cognitive and social development than any resentment that may continue in later years, and I'd like to know if anyone here with blue water sailing experience thinks otherwise.

Duncan Gibbs
08-27-2009, 09:39 PM
I don't Greg, but both Gareth and ACB do - in spades at that. They both see no real issue here.

Nanoose
08-27-2009, 10:26 PM
Nah, I think it is foolish and reckless and may well put the lives of others at risk and may also have a far more negative impact on a 13 year old childs cognitive and social development than any resentment that may continue in later years, and I'd like to know if anyone here with blue water sailing experience thinks otherwise.

I have some off-shore experience...enough of 'weather' out there to have learned it is not fun at all.

My presumption is she's been out in that kind of sh*t before and both she and her parents know what she's potentially going to get into. It would seem they are the best to judge her capability to do this - both in knowing/training her re sailing skills, and in their love for her.

Dr.Spoke
08-28-2009, 03:52 AM
I think she probably can sail the boat around the world, physically, assuming the boat is of a size for her to handle. Mentally, maybe, but long blue-water passages are hard... And adverse conditions make them much harder on ones sanity... Alone it's just much harder.
The question here is not so much whether she can do it; but how to circumvent the parents legal responsibilities toward the child. In europe, a child of that age can not be left to their own recognizance for such a long period as a single ocean crossing would require. Abandoning a child for so long - even with the child's consent - is a criminal act under european law.
I am unsure of the law in The Netherlands, but here in Sweden it is also a parents responsibility to ensure their childs attendance in school ( or equivalent). This is linked to childrens rights, but the child must be forced if need be to attend school by the parents - not doing so is criminal... Equivalent of child abuse. I suspect that this is also europe-wide. I am not an expert on teaching, but I doubt that any child can be taught at distance while trying to single-hand around the world.

Larks
08-28-2009, 05:01 AM
I don't Greg, but both Gareth and ACB do - in spades at that. They both see no real issue here.


My opinion on this is unlikely to be swayed, but then I am talking from the perspective of having a pretty decent amount of offshore sailing experience myself and the knowledge of what that entails, both physically and psychologically. I'd like to know what others with similar experience think.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-28-2009, 05:18 AM
I think we may have to admit the dreadful truth - crossing an ocean in a fair weather zone in a well equiped and suitable boat is not particularly difficult.

I was very impressed with the interviews given by the 17 year old young man who is just completing his circumnavigation - he seemed perfectly competent - as indeed he obviously is.

PeterSibley
08-28-2009, 05:32 AM
I think we may have to admit the dreadful truth - crossing an ocean in a fair weather zone in a well equiped and suitable boat is not particularly difficult.

I was very impressed with the interviews given by the 17 year old young man who is just completing his circumnavigation - he seemed perfectly competent - as indeed he obviously is.

Well his interview certainly gave comfort to this wannabe bluewater sailor ! :)

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
08-28-2009, 06:16 AM
.... it is also a parents responsibility to ensure their childs attendance in school ( or equivalent). This is linked to childrens rights, but the child must be forced if need be to attend school by the parents - not doing so is criminal.......

There are many different things which - in the UK - would pass the "equivalent" test - and a single handed circumnavigation might well be one of them.

Not sure it would be sensible.

PeterSibley
08-28-2009, 06:27 AM
It should be the equivalent of several years of high school ....at least !

Larks
08-28-2009, 06:40 AM
I'm at a bit of a loss as to why offshore sailing and passage making is suddenly seen as a bit of a doddle:confused:

Hwyl
08-28-2009, 07:07 AM
I don't Greg, but both Gareth and ACB do - in spades at that. They both see no real issue here.

Belay that, or some other stupid salty term. Don't put words in my mouth, I think it's a ridiculous idea, that's why I pasted the foetus story.

13 year olds should be having fun with their peers. Remember I teach kids too, and i have some pretty good 13 year olds in my group, it's not the sailing it's the social deprivation.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-28-2009, 07:09 AM
It seems the Court have said "no", anyway.

She is going to be assessed by a Court appointed psychiatrist, who will, I suspect, find her just as infuriating a subject as Robin Knox-Johnson was (he was assessed after his round the world trip on Suhaili and pronounced "distressingly normal"! ) and who will report in October.

This means, assuming that she was going to start from Holland, that she cannot make the customary weather window for crossing Biscay before the Autumn, so its off for a year, probably.

Duncan Gibbs
08-28-2009, 09:24 AM
Belay that, or some other stupid salty term. Don't put words in my mouth, I think it's a ridiculous idea, that's why I pasted the foetus story.

13 year olds should be having fun with their peers. Remember I teach kids too, and i have some pretty good 13 year olds in my group, it's not the sailing it's the social deprivation.

Sorry Gareth. Without going to the top of this page and checking I made that post. I mistook your views with those of Htom. I was having a "name beginning with H and only being four letters" moment.

Having said that...

My view is that most 13 YO girls are right into learning how to be good porn stars via all the trash that is shoved into their developing minds ("Bratz, Hannah Montana" and all that mindless crap), that such a force of independent thinking and self reliance in a young woman is something to be cherished and nurtured rather than frowned upon. Rather than making her a ward of the state, surely there's an alternate path that will be far more constructive. Send a Dutch Naval ship along with her: Make a big hoo-har a beat a different drum for girls that isn't that of a screen culture. This experience could end VERY negatively for her if the NL government gets its way.

TimH
08-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Circumnavigations arent what they used to be. It used to be that one would sail around visiting countries and seeing what the world had to offer.
Now its take the shortest path and get it over quick just so you can say you did it.
Leaves a lot lacking to me.

Nanoose
08-28-2009, 10:46 AM
Circumnavigations arent what they used to be. It used to be that one would sail around visiting countries and seeing what the world had to offer.
Now its take the shortest path and get it over quick just so you can say you did it.
Leaves a lot lacking to me.

Just different reasons for going, Tim....both are ok.

I appreciate the Dr.'s input re European law and parental responsibility. But, what about this means the parents are abdicating responsibility and therefore punishable by law? She could easily be in touch with her parents, even daily, if required. Does responsibility entail hands on proximity? If so, then kids could never be absent from parents, which means no more school, etc. You see where this is going.....

Maybe she'll just jump in her boat while she still has the weather window and go. She'd be home long before the parents' case ever got to court?.....no?

oznabrag
08-28-2009, 11:18 AM
... She'd be home long before the parents' case ever got to court?.....no?

Maybe, maybe not. The sea has killed an enormous number of well-seasoned, able-bodied men and women.

If she doesn't make it home, her parents will most likely rot in prison.

BrianY
08-28-2009, 03:20 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8227250.stm

Not gonna happen even if she manages to move to NZ

Woxbox
08-28-2009, 06:48 PM
This is absolutely absurd. She wants to do it. Her parents are fine with the idea. Where in the world does the guvmint assume it knows more, or has more authority?

seanz
08-28-2009, 06:56 PM
Think of it as being truant for few years........

Larks
08-28-2009, 08:39 PM
Forgetting the whole thing of truancy, do you guys really believe that going to sea is akin to a summer holiday? That seems to be some of the attitude here, which I find quite amazing, the age of GPS, autopilots and sat' phones does not a forgiving ocean make!!

Steve Paskey
08-28-2009, 08:50 PM
This is absolutely absurd. She wants to do it. Her parents are fine with the idea. Where in the world does the guvmint assume it knows more, or has more authority?

For the same reason that courts sometimes step in and order that children be given medical treatment against the wishes of their parents. As a society, we sometimes have an obligation to protect minor children from parents who are dangerously irresponsible.

I don't know whether she should go or not. Given that she's 13, I don't trust that she's truly capable of understanding the challenge, nor do I trust her parents to make the decision. Most 13 year olds aren't even CLOSE to being physically and mentally mature enough to sail solo for a week, never mind around the world.

I don't have a problem with the court stepping in, but ordering a psychological evaluation makes no sense at all. Here's what I'd do: round up a couple of well-respected sailors with serious blue-water experience, people who don't know her or her parents and who are willing to keep an open mind. Send them out with her for a week in less than ideal weather, and make her sail the boat alone ... they'd only be there as observers. At the end of the week, let them tell the court whether she's up to it.

If she passes that test, let her go, and godspeed.

Woxbox
08-28-2009, 08:51 PM
Right, Larks. As noted above, the kids who grow up cruising are mature beyond their years. These bureaucrats have no idea.

Larks
08-28-2009, 09:18 PM
Steve, I think the psych evaluation came from what seemed to be some quite relevant comments relating to her reasoning for wanting to do the trip and possibly relating to helping her with the situation that she is in. My wife is a psychologist and although she deals with much more extreme psychological issues, she is very aware of the root of a lot of these later issues stemming from impacts during a childs cognitive development, including the impact of divorce and how they cope with it:

From 26 Aug news: "The rat race to become a so-called "super child" — the youngest to accomplish some gruelling feat — can be fuelled by ambitious parents, laser-focused children with talent, or youngsters with a deep need to please or be praised, psychologists say.
Dutch social workers fear that could be an issue in Laura’s case, for she lives with her Dutch father who is divorced from her German mother.
Parents divorced
"Laura has divorced parents and it is very normal for a child of this age to be very loyal to the parent (he or she) is living with," Child Protection spokesman Richard Bakker told The Associated Press.
"How much does she identify herself with her father, who is a good sailor?"
Laura and her father appeared at a court hearing on Monday to discuss the council’s request, but the mother did not show up, Bakker said.
Record-breaking attempts by children can become memorable personal triumphs but also run the risk of turning to tragedy — with the inevitable recriminations for having allowed it to happen.
In an editorial on Tuesday, the Dutch daily De Volkskrant warned that the young sailor was unwittingly putting herself in significant danger.
"She simply does not have the experience to anticipate the problems and possible crises that await her," the paper wrote.
Besides the physical hazards, experts also warn that being alone for so long at such a young age could hinder the child’s emotional development.
"A 13-year-old girl is in the middle of her development and you don’t do that alone — you need peers and adults," said Micha de Winter, a professor of child psychology at Utrecht University.
Adults can make choose to be alone, he added, "but for children it is not good."

"Particularly the absence of parents at such a crucial time of the child’s development ... the risks are serious," he said.
Laura was born in New Zealand while her parents were on a round-the-world sailing trip and spent the first four years of her life on the ocean.

BrianY
08-29-2009, 12:01 AM
...then how old should someone be to be old enough to sail around the world alone?

14?
15?
16? - we know that one kid started out when he was 16 and manged to do it, so is 16 the lower age limit?

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
08-29-2009, 04:52 AM
Transoceanic passages are like space travel. Perhaps 19 times out of 20, it's fair weather and routine. Then that 20th time, it gets hairy. I believe strongly that any person making such a passage must always assume that it's going to get ugly out there, full tilt, and they better be ready for it. That's why I don't want to go to sea in a light race boat.

Many good points have been made above. Here's another: Does she have the physical strength (and weight) to handle the equipment in a really bad blow? Perhaps she's big for her age, that would help.

Emotional maturity is a big one for me. Way out at sea, severe emotional isolation, with no backups is, in my opinion, a lousy time to find out. It's the emotional equivalent of teaching someone to swim by throwing them off the dock.

Remember the same stunts with aircraft piloting? Younger and younger age, until I think a 7 year old girl did it and crashed. Then the FAA put a stop to those stunts real quick.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-29-2009, 05:14 AM
Well, she has already singlehanded the same boat from Holland to Britain and back. Its a sensible size boat - there's nothing too heavy on a 27 footer.

Personally, I blame Arthur Ransome...:D

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
08-29-2009, 06:22 AM
Well, she has already singlehanded the same boat from Holland to Britain and back. Its a sensible size boat - there's nothing too heavy on a 27 footer.

Personally, I blame Arthur Ransome...:D

It may be a sensible size for sail management, but it's gonna blow around like a cork. If I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), the heeling stability of a sailboat is proportional to the 4th power of its length. A little more length goes a long way. A 40 footer has almost 5 times the stability.

Dr.Spoke
08-29-2009, 07:37 AM
Just different reasons for going, Tim....both are ok.

But, what about this means the parents are abdicating responsibility and therefore punishable by law? She could easily be in touch with her parents, even daily, if required. Does responsibility entail hands on proximity? If so, then kids could never be absent from parents, which means no more school, etc. You see where this is going.....



Not quite, when we leave our children at school ( or allow them to make their way to school intending to arrive at a specific time) then from the moment the child is "registered" present at school until released back into the care of the parent - end of school - the school is in loco parentis. This ultimately means that a child's day is quite structured with "adult" supervision, even when not in direct contact with parents.
As I understand children much younger may be left to their own devises for quite longer periods - up to about 4 hours - but if harm comes to the child during that time that could have been foreseen, then the parents would be considered to be (criminally) negligent. At about teenage, children are legally much more responsible; but always must defer to the parents for decisions. And are certainly not allowed to be free to do as they please, some countries ahve specific curfews for teenagers after which they must be within parental control.

As to a circumnavigation being equivalent to school - maybe, but you are not going to gain the knowledge required to pass the exams to get into further education... Leaving the child's choices limited! This is the primary reason for legal requirements for schooling, not that other education isn't ok, but should be complementary to an academic schooling: ensuring the maximum choice for the child as they reach maturity ( which we notionally make 18).
(And 5 years when you're 13 is a long time, with a lot of experience and maturing)

downthecreek
08-29-2009, 08:55 AM
Maybe she'll go, be vindicated and return as the newest prodigy of the sailing world (until someone a month or two younger starts off)

Maybe she'll give it a try but have to give up and everybody will say, well, it was a brave try, but she really was too young......

Maybe she will give it a try, get into real trouble, give herself the scare of a lifetime, lose her boat, be rescued (probably by the Aussies, via Falmouth coastguard ;)) at great expense, acquire great fame, cause great controversy and give up the sea altogether.

Maybe she'll give it a try, be lost at sea, cause a whirlwind of horror at this terrible tragedy and provoke a worldwide outpouring of revulsion against the parents and the Dutch government for their unforgivable negligence and irresponsibility.

The difference in circumstances that could lead to these possible outcomes are really quite small. Who knows?

If she does go, may she return safe and triumphant! :)

oznabrag
08-29-2009, 11:55 AM
Maybe she'll...(snip)...

The difference in circumstances that could lead to these possible outcomes are really quite small. Who knows?

If she does go, may she return safe and triumphant! :)

I think that sizes it up nicely, Creeky.

I might add that, as the age of the sailor decreases below a point at which we can reasonably expect mental, emotional and physical strength, the difference between these circumstances decreases exponentially.

BarnacleGrim
08-29-2009, 01:29 PM
Children her age are setting fire to cars in Gothenburg as we speak, claiming "there's nothing for them to do".

In this day and age we should encourage youthful enterprise.

There is a great deal of risk involved, but not having all the facts or the necessary blue water sailing experience, I can't really say if she should be allowed to go or not. But nor can a bunch of landlubber social workers.

cookie
08-29-2009, 02:21 PM
My neighbour met the girl a couple of years back. He told me about her and said that he wouldn't like his kids to be sailing around like her, all on her own. Not because of the handling of the boat, but because of nutcases who might do things normal folks wouldn't do.

My two concerns? What can a thirteen year old lightweight do on a heavily rocking boat in a 8 bft+ storm, and like my neighbour, I am not very trusting towards nutcases either..... Seen too many of them, in quite a few parts of the world :cool:

sailboy3
08-29-2009, 02:35 PM
Regardless of age, I don't think you should sail around the world just for publicity and the sake of breaking records. This girl obviously made a big enough of a deal about this as far as publicity that the authorities found out. If it was me, I'd just go, forget the tv interviews.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
08-29-2009, 02:37 PM
Since this is clearly a stunt for the record books, and not a normal transit, what are the opinions on requiring the parents to post bond in advance to cover any anticipated rescue costs? I know the same could be said for any oceanic sailor, but again we are talking about probabilities. (Do the round-the-world sailors in the unrightable maxis have to post bond? One capsize and they're done, turn on the EPIRB.)

Hwyl
08-29-2009, 02:46 PM
Actually they now have to prove that they are self righting.

BarnacleGrim
08-29-2009, 02:51 PM
I'd be more worried about the seedier ports of call than the sea itself.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-29-2009, 03:17 PM
It may be a sensible size for sail management, but it's gonna blow around like a cork. If I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), the heeling stability of a sailboat is proportional to the 4th power of its length. A little more length goes a long way. A 40 footer has almost 5 times the stability.

Well, Bob, plenty of people have sailed round the world, including the hairy bits which she won't be doing, in smaller boats than hers.

bobbys
08-29-2009, 03:57 PM
After raising 3 kids i think it should be Required for them to sail off starting at 13 and coming back when there 20.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-29-2009, 04:52 PM
Thundering good point, which most of us will agree with! ;)

George Roberts
08-29-2009, 04:56 PM
I think we may have to admit the dreadful truth - crossing an ocean in a fair weather zone in a well equipped and suitable boat is not particularly difficult.

I was very impressed with the interviews given by the 17 year old young man who is just completing his circumnavigation - he seemed perfectly competent - as indeed he obviously is.

The fact that one has circumnavigated solo should not be seen an an indication that one is a competent sailor.

Like everyone else - let her go, fend for herself, and don't morn when she does not return.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-29-2009, 05:25 PM
The fact that one has circumnavigated solo should not be seen an an indication that one is a competent sailor.



Crikey, George, could you let us have a list of amateur sailors whom you do consider to be "competent"?

It should not take you long, as it must be a very short list!

:rolleyes:

Duncan Gibbs
08-29-2009, 06:59 PM
Maturity is a relative measure. I know some 40 to 50 YOs who, if you plunge their depths will find even greater shallows. This young sailor, Ms Dekker, was quite literally, born into sailing and probably has more blue water under her keel than 95% of those posting to the forum.

Isolation and social interaction are also relative: Fifty years ago, many children had very limited social possibilities and could probably count all their known peers on one or two hands. These days, in this screen driven culture, one may be able to say the same thing; even pronounce the current level of interaction as worse. What passes for social interaction (including aspects of how we all communicate and establish relationships on this forum) is NOT the same as real face to face contact. To assume, that in the face of this technological onslaught on the human psyche - and mostly on very young minds at that - that Laura Dekker is being risky and fool-hardy when our the very foundations of a continuing and successful culture are being white-anted, placing millions of young lives at risk, I FULLY support her venture.

I hope she makes it.

George Roberts
08-29-2009, 07:57 PM
Crikey, George, could you let us have a list of amateur sailors whom you do consider to be "competent"?

It should not take you long, as it must be a very short list!

:rolleyes:

I don't make such lists.

Nanoose
08-29-2009, 07:58 PM
Duncan raises an interesting point. The young are part of the texting social group. Her social interaction can carry on very nicely underway.

Woxbox
08-29-2009, 08:00 PM
"better drowned than duffers if not duffers won’t drown”

Paul Pless
08-29-2009, 08:08 PM
The fact that one has circumnavigated solo should not be seen an an indication that one is a competent sailor.

Like everyone else - let her go, fend for herself, and don't morn when she does not return.dork

seanz
08-29-2009, 08:28 PM
Regardless of age, I don't think you should sail around the world just for publicity and the sake of breaking records. This girl obviously made a big enough of a deal about this as far as publicity that the authorities found out. If it was me, I'd just go, forget the tv interviews.

Off you go then........:)

An intrinsic part of this story is that it is for a record attempt and the younger they get the more irresponsible their guardians look.

It's one thing to run away to sea, it's quite another thing to be encouraged to run away to sea.
;)

Glen Longino
08-29-2009, 09:05 PM
After raising 3 kids i think it should be Required for them to sail off starting at 13 and coming back when there 20.
:D:D:D
And take all their little pissant friends with them!;)

cookie
12-20-2009, 09:04 AM
The story continues, she is missing......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8423325.stm

paladin
12-20-2009, 11:53 AM
I wish one of my kids would try it and take their mom with them........I have a particular kid or two in mind.......