Anchor Deck Bracket (Attn: Ian, OTL)

[NormMessinger]

Is this more or less what you recommended, Ian"

Built from 3/8" ocoume. But will it be strong enough?
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da03b3127cce910d8dd8538400000036108AZNWjZozZNO

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da03b3127cce910d8dc2539e00000036108AZNWjZozZNO

The plan is to move the rode to the chock once the anchor is on the bottom and back to the bracket once it has broken out to raise it.

What say yea, what say yea all?

[ 04-22-2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: NormMessinger ]

[paladin]

thatsa way itz done on TanaMari exxcept itz part of the bowsprit hardware...I have a couple of faspins that lock it in place and then removed just before deploying anchor.....

[NormMessinger]

Ya think this will do the job or should I weld one up out of steel?

The ears were intended to take a fastpin through the eye on the front of the anchor but I got ahead of myself.

[whb]

Norm

Looks great. You may want to put a bit of roap or chain on it and give it a try. It kinda looks like it may be a inch or so too close to the hull.

Howard

[htom]

You need a pin of some sort to keep the anchor in the bracket, and the same or another to keep the rode from jumping off the roller and out of the bracket (maybe at the forward upper end of the bracket, doing both.)

[John B]

They get called a "spare man" here.
I 'd be worried that its a bit too close to the hull too Norm. Mine is. :rolleyes:

[JimConlin]

Two observations-

To be sure that its position is OK, hang the anchor just below the roller. It should be able to swing a bit (maybe 30 degrees) without the anchor touching the topsides.

When trying to judge whether something is 'strong enough', there are really two variants to the question: "Is it strong enough to tolerate the way I intend to use it?" and "Would it survive if a boatyard gorilla tried to lift the boat with it or ...?". I fear that the answers are yes and no, respectively.
Do the commercial rollers work? Windline is one manufacturer. This a Windline roller on an Alberg 35 I once knew.
http://24.169.175.51/Alberg35/Projects/MagicTour/Magic04.JPEG

[htom]

Maybe a couple of inches longer, so you can put another pin just above the rode while it's fastened to the anchor. This can prevent a loop from flying about and catching on something else.

I've never seen one of those built of wood, which doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. I've frequently seen metal ones lined with wood for noise control. Those ears can take a horrid load under some conditions and steel or bronze might be more suited.

[jboat]

With the anchor being so far off center the boat is going to tack back and forth while at anchor, especially in a blow. I would also be concerned about the strength of the ears. They are going to take a lot of lateral stress. The last thing you need is the bracket failing at two in the morning with a howling wind.....

[paladin]

a sacrificial plank for rode or chain to ride on may be in order, and the comments about an inch or so longer might be looked at. Make a bridle of about 60 feet of line, doubled with an eye in the center and at each end. the ends of course go to cleats on the deck and the bridle has a snap shackle at center. when you set the anchor the line is attached at the shackle, rudder set amidships, sails down, no sailing.....

[NormMessinger]

Thank you all. Nice thing about wood is it is cheap so I will not mind rebuilding this one to get it out further.

I had it closer to the center but feared conflict with the bob stay so moved it out a bit.

10-4 on the bridle.

[ 04-22-2005, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: NormMessinger ]

[rbgarr]

Alternatively, you could use a rolling hitch from a tail on the bridle instead of a snapshackle. If you tie a loop in your anchor line to attach a shackle (or even a knot) of any kind you are diminishing the strength of the rode. Probably not a big deal in a boat your size, but....

[paladin]

the idea of the shackle is to reduce friction on the line at that point....when you are in a blow and riding one out you should of course check your ground tackle frequently...

[Ian McColgin]

The pattern looks basically good, but I would make it from steel. It is strong enough to hold the anchor for storage, as you intend, with the idea of slipping it to the chock, but that does away with much of the utility of a good roller. More on really using the roller arrangement all the time below, but you could go with wood if you make the bottom of real wood and I think more like 5/8" for the bottom to be sure. I have made roller platforms of wood and they will work fine. A nice upsidedown U shaped bail will serve as a keeper and soften any lateral strain.

It would have to go out a ways to get the plough point to clear the hull, and there's much to be said for jamming it home when housed. So instead of lengthening it, I'd put a little pad, perhaps even notched, to keep the point from scaring the hull. An additional point in favor of keeping it about the size you've done is that it puts less strain on the platform when breaking the anchor out. With a 6:1 or so scope, the down strain on the platform when the anchor is set is not really severe unless you've anchored in surf.

The prototype looks like it will fall free of the bobstay.

Having the roller off-center does not hurt how the boat will lie. She might even be less likely to tack on her anchor as she'll be held on the port tack. The only other solution to tacking at anchor is to get the rode out to the end of the bowsprit, which in PI's case introduces more problems than it solves.

You'll want a nice big roller in the end, like the concave rollers sold for keel rollers on trailers, and a nice big bail over the top to keep everything from hopping out. The bail can pivot on the roller pin and thus keep the profile of the roller trough lower than if you put a pin (bail or not) above the roller. Sized with the anchor, it will secure the anchor crown when housed. If you have a simple pin on the roller as sized now, you'll have lots of trouble getting everything to fit as the anchor comes home. It's nice if the forward most and bottom of the platform are radiused to follow the roller's shape. The inside edges on each side that rise above the roller should also be relieved to keep the rode from chafing there. On both steel and wooden platforms, I've used half inch ss rod as the boundry. Looks neat and is easy on the rode.

A lot of people like to put a pin through the anchor's crown. It's not a bad practice by any means, especially if one anticipates a bit of rough sailing, but I prefer not as you have to get out by the crown to release it and the pin can jam unpleasantly. Both can be huge problems on a stark and dormy night. I keep a bit of light line spliced to the anchor shaft shackle next to the chain's first link. This I tie to whatever it at hand - On Grana a lifeline stanchion. That way the anchor is held snugly against the roller but is still easy to release.

If the unit is nice and strong, you can then do your anchor hauling from a safe place on deck or even in the cockpit without having to lumber about shifting the rode from chock to roller.

You should have a chain leader about the length of PI. To protect the deck, you might want a shallower trough for the chain to lay in, leading back to wherever the rode is stowed. I have forgotten the interior layout but it seems to me that you're pretty much committed to deck stowage.

Were she mine, I'd run the trough right back along the cabin trunk and cockpit combing and stow the line aft. That way the anchor could be entirely handled from the cockpit. You'd need to use the boat hook to push the anchor at the start of setting but otherwise no bother.

Could even put a cute Samson post up through the after port corner of the cabin making for a good point to secure the anchor when set and giving a wonderfully back saving stance for hauling the anchor. Always remembering that you let PI do the actual work of breaking out the anchor. All you do is take in the slack on each overshot and then lift only the anchor and chain.

Almost forgot, with a properly longish chain leader - I favor one boat length, which is a European standard much longer than the normal US standard - there will be lots of time when you are anchored in water shallow enough that for the breaking out you have chain all the way from your hands to the anchor. You'll need a Samson post or large cleat to make taking a turn during the break-out practical. If you're making Phyllis handle it, better invest in some nice rawhide gloves.

Anyway, whether from deck or cockpit, it's still much better to keep the rode flowing out over the roller through all phases of your anchor evolutions.

G'luck

[NormMessinger]

Thank Ian. Phyllis will have to decide if she'd rather touch the tiller or a muddy chain. We'll work on the tiller first. I keep telling her there is not need to grip it so tightly except in cases of extreme fear. She says, well duh!

[Frank E. Price]

I think shifting the rode to the chock is not a good idea. In a serious anchoring situation (long term, or rough conditions) the small radius of the chock's bearing surface will quickly chafe the line. A very large and well rounded chock would be better, and best would be to make the roller bracket of steel with a big steel roller, and leave the line in it. Best of all make the chain long enough that you will rarely use all of it (meaning chain will be at the chafing point, not line). If not chain, then use line much much larger than otherwise called for, e.g. if 7/16" is what seems right, use 5/8". It takes longer to chafe through.

As for bronze fittings around galvanized anchors and chain, anywhere that is as wet as here galvanic action takes the zinc off wherever it is in contact with bronze and rust ensues. But I don't know where you're going to be cruising from Nebraska, so maybe that's not an issue.

Nice looking boat. What threads do I go to, to read more about her?

Frank

[ 04-24-2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Frank E. Price ]

[htom]

That's Norm's Prairie Islander, an Iain Oughred designed Farne Islander plans.

[Bruce Hooke]

Remember that one of the times when the most load can be placed on the roller and bracket is when you are trying to break the anchor out after a blow. So, if the bracket cannot take a high load this breaking out process would have to be done with the anchor still in the chock. Once you've got the anchor broken out and you are underway then you've got the anchor and chain hanging vertically from the chock. Trying to move it to the roller at that point is going to be one hell of a job because while you are lifting you also have to lean out far enough to get the rode onto the roller. So, I would definitely go to a metal bracket and don't use light gauge metal either. I should note that my experience is somewhat colored by the fact that when I was last sailing extensively I had 70' of chain and a 25 lb. CQR to deal with. :eek:

Another note: the roller on my anchor bracket was not very large and I found that trying to get the anchor past the point where the top of the anchor is just at the roller took a fair amount of upward pull -- i.e., I could not do it by just pulling back horizontally. I was pulling by hand, which it sounds like you will be too. Before you plan on following Ian's suggestion of doing the hauling from the cockpit I would do some tests to see if this is an issue with your gear.

[NormMessinger]

Steel, it shall be. I'm going to play with the wooden one first to get some idea of the configuration. The bow roller is probably not right, as Ian suggested, etc.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4cc33b3127cce9dca3c2d409800000036108AZNWjZozZNO

[Tom M.]

That's gotta be the best view of Prairie Islander I've seen Norm. She looks big until you see the big lugg at the tiller.

[Ian McColgin]

The roller itself could have a bigger diameter in the center for easier hauling but no biggie.

Especially if the roller is a straight cylinder, it helps to make some structure that will absolutely prevent the rode from jamming between the roller and the side. This can easily happen during breakout as the strain is quite large and likely to be as some angle.

If the sides are nicely made to follow the shape of the roller around the bottom but out a bit and if a bit of rod is bent to follow that shape and welded on such that the rod overhangs the roller a bit, you can leave enough gap for the roller to roll freely, the rode can never slip in there, and you've a nicely radiused surface for the rode to bear on during a side strain.

I have been wondering about the overhang for the platform. One problem with platforms is getting the anchor up over the roller when you're pulling at right angles. On Grana I start the anchor swinging by jerking on the rode when the anchor is at the dangle hard on the roller and the shackle is laying along the top of the roller. Then when the anchor is on the outswing, I give it a pull. On PI as set up you've not room to get it swinging and might have to get on deck to pull up. Which might not be too bad if your normal anchor haul stance is kneeling on deck. Easy enough then to get a hand above the roller to get the anchor started up.

I recommen a few back yard trials.

G'luck

[NormMessinger]

Maybe you can see Prairie Islander in person in September, Tom, if dreams come true. Touble with the Fern Ridge Dam may preclude sailing there however. Ya gotta have water.

Backyard tests are indeed in order, Ian. Another thing I had not given any thought to was the strain on the deck where the aft end of the roller is attached.

I have a piece of 1/8" steel 6" wide and about 5' long in the shop that I have no idea any more why I bought it. That should do for the bracket. A quest for a proper roller should not be difficult.

Thanks again.

[htom]

Could you ease the problem of the 90 degree "bend" by having two rollers, one lower and forward of the other, so that the pull would be over a pair of 45 degree bends?

[rbgarr]

If you can get hold of 'The Capable Cruiser' by the Pardeys there is a chapter on how anchor rollers of the type you are working on failed at Cabo San Lucas during an unexpected storm. Even though you plan on moving the anchor rode to the chock when anchored, if you were to need to raise anchor during a storm, you'd probably use the roller for part of the heaving. They report that some anchor rollers fabricated from 1/8" steel bent 90 degrees in forty knots of wind and ended up with the roller upside down and a chafed through anchor line.

They've got suggestions for alternatives.

[NormMessinger]

Thanks, rb. The idea of moving the road to the chock has been abandoned. There is little doubt that Prairie Islander will never be in a situation where a "C"beam of 1/8" steel could be bent even give me as the weldor. I should have Pardey"s book anyway, eh? Two rollers seems to make sense.

[landlocked sailor]

Here is a photo of the one on the Concordia Yawls.
http://www.concordiaboats.com/images/Conco%20Parts/DCP_0714_small.JPG
Rick

[ 04-27-2005, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: landlocked sailor ]

[NormMessinger]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da06b3127cce913aec31097800000036108AZNWjZozZNO

Ed Burnett sent this picture with permission to post it. Looks like bronze to me. Nice. Might do bronze after I get a perfectly shaped one worked out in steel. Ed has a teak block rivited between the two sides with avoids the need to weld. I sorta like welding however.

Good stuff guys, Thanks.

[John B]

I quite liked your original one Norm. what I did think is that it should go out a bit and probably up a bit as well.a basically plumb bow boat means more risk of 'pendulum damage'. I thought you could experiment with a wedge to acheive that.
All the local old boats had a wooden spare man. this one is a bit bulky but you get the drift.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid89/p63fb0437a77904ffa8961b7ff4442fcf/fa8b8a97.jpg

I've waxed lyrical before about the benefits of a roller bearing fairlead. It's one of those underated things but honestly.. we haul up 7 tons against the breeze day in day out through summer while our friends struggle with their 3 tons.I get on their boats and wonder why its all so hard until... eureka... horrible roller on a bolt. :rolleyes:

[John B]

This one is probably hard to see but its pretty simple... bolt.. sleeve, some bronze rod chopped into short lengths to make the bearings, and the roller itself with corresponding internal dimension to suit all of that.( This one is an asymetrical roller as its for a particular boat and the starboard side.)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid83/pf661fc33cc08b5d83599790ec5b00967/fad4ec99.jpg

[Steveh]

That looks pretty handy John, what boat is it for?

You know I'll be putting one on Ngatira. With roller bearings too!
I like the idea of a cast one rather than like on iorangi. Big and baulky as you say.

[John B]

Its my belief that its for a Townson originally Steve. Now its for Waione. Its made by Murray,..... like those gorgeous little swiveling, roller bearing jib cars you don't have.

[ 04-27-2005, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[rbgarr]

Norm- I use one of these for an anchor roller. It folds back onto the deck when I'm not using it, but I store my anchor in the cockpit (or below) rather than on deck. You may not wish to do that.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26446&item=4546917334&rd=1

[NormMessinger]

The current bid is an insult. I'm thinking the anchor should be stored on deck.

[rbgarr]

The eBay seller set $3.99 as the opening bid and we don't know what the first bidder bid, so there's no insult there. He could have submitted a bid limit of $75, which is about what these have gone for in other eBay auctions. The eBay system helps bidders pay only what they 'have to' in order to remain the highest bidder until their limit is reached.

The seller is running the risk of selling his item at well below the going 'rate' for these things IMO, but we'll see how many bidders there are. He could have put a reserve price on it, but chose not to.

[ 05-01-2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Bark]

A few weeks ago, I paid about $25 (on Ebay) for a bow roller almost identical to the one currently listed. Mine is chrome plated bronze, though. I didn't want to use it as designed (swing-out arrangement), so I've been doing some cutting to see if I can make it work as a bronze replacement for the standard Windline stainless steel roller I have now. I cut the "top" off the long section, creating a U-shaped channel. It's not as wide as I'd like for the chain, but if I line it up carefully with the windlass, I think it might work ...

[Art Read]

I hope that God grants me the blessing to be concerned with improvements to my boat, and thoughts of posible future voyages, in the last days of MY life... We'll miss you, Norm.

[rbgarr]

Amen, Art. Dave Geer had the same fortitude and equanimity, too.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Well said Art.

[Paul Denison]

He never slowed down.

[ssor]

I am late on this one, but I made my anchor roller extension of 2X white oak with a urethane boat trailer roller on a half inch shaft. With a 35 pound cqr it is a grunt to ship the anchor but it stays in place in the light conditions we have experienced so far.

[formerlyknownasprince]

I wish he still had another 10,000 posts left in him

[PeterSibley]

Bye Norm ....thanks :(

[Ed Harrow]

Originally posted by Art Read:
I hope that God grants me the blessing to be concerned with improvements to my boat, and thoughts of posible future voyages, in the last days of MY life... We'll miss you, Norm.Amen, tho perhaps a bit tough for Norm or me.