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paladin
08-21-2009, 09:31 AM
At the center where I go for Dialysis, there are two other vets...among about 16 people per shift.
One is totally blind, the other partially, both in wheelchairs, one whose kidneys have totally failed, one who has about 10% of one kidney function, and one who has his neck and back in a brace....the results of Agent Orange in Vietnam. The one fellow sitting next to me saw my arm and asked if it was Agent Orange, I said "yes". He then asked how much the government paid each month...I told him "$99.44"...his remark "Those Bastards."
Even though there is some "discussion" there still is no acceptance of wrongdoing on the part of the government, and they pay a very small monthly partial disability for being exposed to the chemical. One of the fellows obviously has spent a lot of time with veterans organizations and the vast majority of those exposed to the chemical are losing sight, kidney and liver function, and the most money you can expect to get for your family to live on is "early medicare"......if you spent less than 20 years in the military, all you get is McDonalds coke and hamburger money.

Pirate-at-heart
08-21-2009, 09:33 AM
yeah, a very dear friend of mine was in the vietnam war, was exposed to agent orange, a recently passed away from complications of that syndrome.

Its a damned shame we dont take full responsibility for our actions here.

cheers to you anyway.

Hal Forsen
08-21-2009, 10:41 AM
My brother in law flew Huey's over there and he had to have a large hunk of cancer removed from his neck a couple years back. The docs told him it was likely related to the AO.

John Smith
08-21-2009, 10:49 AM
My brother in law flew Huey's over there and he had to have a large hunk of cancer removed from his neck a couple years back. The docs told him it was likely related to the AO.

If only Americans would recognize our nation has flaws, maybe we could fix some of them

skuthorp
08-21-2009, 10:50 AM
Governments are all the same about this, they put second rate beaurocrats in Vet Affairs with express instructions to fight every claim and are miserly about those they have to pay. There are no votes in it, only expenses.
The next generation of soldiers just follow the patriotic propaganda and the cycle goes on.

Canoeyawl
08-21-2009, 11:13 AM
I have lost a few pals to diseases related to agent orange and exposure in Vietnam. The pilots and crews went first, they suffered silently. Early in the 1980's.
I can only imagine what the people below suffered.

The blame rests squarely on the chemical manufacturing companys (Monsanto, et al) and the lobbiests that convinced the buyers
(Gov - that would be us, you and I) that it was harmless and good. This is the same gang that the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld came from.
These are the same companies that lobbyed to pass laws prohibiting any cultuvation of hemp...especially commercially - a good alternative to synthetic fibers.

We don't have a chance... They are still at it. Look where we are now, Irag? Afganistan? WTF?

You know I remember stuff, like claymores and flechette rounds sitting on our dining room table as we had rational family discusions about how to "improve" these devices. Every US citizen was complicit to some extent I think.

boylesboats
08-21-2009, 11:59 AM
I have a friend that had been exposed to agent orange... He suffered some serious nerve damages, died few years ago..
His wife said his sufferin' is over...

John of Phoenix
08-21-2009, 12:48 PM
I got what we think was a dose of Agent Orange. We were shut down, eating lunch at a fire base near the Cambodian border waiting for a mission to come down. We heard a C-123, a very noisy airplane, coming up from the south and thought it must be bring in fuel bladders. Nope. It thundered right over us at maybe 150 feet and we could see the spray booms but it wasn't spraying anything. Suddenly we're all choking and gagging and couldn't see anything because our eyes were stinging and watering - just like CS gas only much stronger. One guy couldn't stop throwing up for about 10 minutes. "WTF was that?" "Defoliant!", someone coughed.

We went into the fire base and washed our hands and faces as well as we could at the water point but our flight suits were still contaminated and so our eyes kept watering. We flew back to base to change clothes. While we cleaned up and changed, I had the crewchief wash the canopy of my aircraft because it was splattered with the crap we got hosed with. When we got back he said, "I don't know what that stuff was but it's taking the paint off." and pointed to several bare flecks where the paint had washed off.

Nasty stuff. I don't know if any of those other guys had any lasting effects, but so far so good here.

Shameful the way vets gets treated on this and on Gulf War Syndrome.

WX
08-21-2009, 05:01 PM
Quite a number of drums of the stuff ended up in Australia and was used by farmers. Regarding vets, at first the government denied it was A. a problem and B. that Australian soldiers had been exposed to it. It took a long time for veterans to get any justice here.

goodbasil
08-21-2009, 05:18 PM
And they tested it on our soldiers.
http://www.agentorangealert.com/

This fight is still ongoing.

paladin
08-21-2009, 06:30 PM
I was lucky...I was dropped into an area with a team, total 6 guys....and walked straight into an area that had recently been sprayed, I felt the burn after brushing through the underbrush....and I told the Sgt in Lead that I was heading for the river...fast....and then he felt it......we soajked ourselves and our clothes staying in the water for an hour almost.....called for extraction and got out of our clothes asap.

dreyer
08-21-2009, 06:50 PM
The New Zealand Govt formally aknowledged and apologised for NZ soldiers exposure to AO last year. Only 4 decades late.

My father is a vet (both NZ & US service in '65) and has watched many (you could say most) of his close friends and fellow soldiers lose the fight to various cancers over the last few years & children of the vets grow up with debilitating conditions. 600 of the 3000 kiwi vets are now deceased. He remembers skimming the oily film atop the river water in his drinking cup & spraying FC zones with backpack sprayers with little to no protection.

Funnily enough the politicians at the top that were apologising last year were the anti-war protesters in during the vietnam period.

Most feel the denial about exposure relates to the rumor that NZ's Agricultural company Dow Watkins produced thousands of gallons of "agent" in a contract to the US govt. This is something that the Gov still denies.

At least the US & Aussies have the slightest infrastructure in place to deal with those affected, even if it is substandard.

Basically an appalling product, effect & response to the issue from all angles.

Phillip Allen
08-21-2009, 06:56 PM
chemical warfare...

Shang
08-21-2009, 07:01 PM
Google "children agent orange"...

Phillip Allen
08-21-2009, 07:04 PM
who okayed that use of the stuff...?

Jim Bow
08-21-2009, 08:26 PM
Then we have the Oregon National Guard in Iraq breathing Hexavalent Chromium for months as KBR and the Army ignored the danger.

Don't forget Gulf War Syndrome.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
08-21-2009, 08:38 PM
Was agent orange a Monsanto product? I've always wondered how closely agent orange was related to the herbicide "roundup" which in agricultural strength would kill anything, in only a few days.

S/V Laura Ellen
08-21-2009, 08:42 PM
Not just Monsanto.


Companies supplying Agent Orange to the government included The Dow Chemical Company, Monsanto Company, Hercules Inc., Diamond Shamrock Chemicals Company, Uniroyal Inc., Thompson Chemical and T-H Agriculture and Nutrition Company.

bobbys
08-21-2009, 10:01 PM
All Quiet on the western Front 1930..

[first title card]
Title card: This story is neither an accusation nor a confession, and least of all an adventure, for death is not an adventure to those who stand face to face with it. It will try simply to tell of a generation of men who, even though they may have escaped its shells, were destroyed by the war...

Herby
08-21-2009, 10:40 PM
Quite a number of drums of the stuff ended up in Australia and was used by farmers.

It was also used by state governments. I used both 245T (the woody weed killer) and 24D (for broad leaves) until about 1985 when they ran out of it and decided to ban it.

My understanding is that Agent Orange was a combination of both these chemicals used undiluted. For comparison we used to spray 245T at a diluted rate of 170 ml per100 liters of water, and you still felt crook at the end of the day, 24D was even worse.

I can't imagine what it would be like to get the full dose.

WX
08-21-2009, 11:39 PM
24D ( Dioxin). Stays in soil for years...burn an area that has been sprayed with the stuff and it increases in toxicity by around 1,000%.

Herby
08-22-2009, 12:03 AM
Which is something that would want to be filtered out of bushfire bunkers, as a hell of a lot was sprayed close to areas that are now built on.

George Jung
08-22-2009, 12:04 AM
2-4 D is, I believe, the equivalent. But what's with the burning? Does it somehow release bound herbicide? I would imagine it could be inhaled in that instance, as well.

LeeG
08-22-2009, 01:44 AM
who okayed that use of the stuff...?


when you're gettin' the comnist, terrists, jihadists alls fair,,,except wmd

Phillip Allen
08-22-2009, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Allen
who okayed that use of the stuff...?



when you're gettin' the comnist, terrists, jihadists alls fair,,,except wmd

it's an honest question Lee

paladin
08-22-2009, 02:25 PM
I think the folks that made it, authorized it's use, and then ordered any troops into the area should be made to swim in a pool of it for 2 hours....

bobbys
08-22-2009, 02:30 PM
I think the folks that made it, authorized it's use, and then ordered any troops into the area should be made to swim in a pool of it for 2 hours.....

I read that Newark Bay is loaded with it and the crabs are deformed.

I also read it was in the Passaic river where i grew up.

To think we poisoned ourselves too.

Dan McCosh
08-22-2009, 03:23 PM
Anybody know what we have using in Bolivia?

Tom Galyen
08-22-2009, 03:54 PM
In the 1950's the U.S. Military detonated atomic bombs in the Nevada desert and then marched lightly protected troops into the fall out to see what the effects would be. This was in preparation for the development of cannons that would fire atomic shells. The question they wanted answered was "What would be the effects on the fighting ability of soldiers who had to enter an area immediately after the detonation of a tactical nuclear weapon?" I had a good friend who was part of those experiments die of Leukemia in the late 1980's. He and his wife (who remembers standing on the back porch of their bungalow in Nevada and watching the mushroom clouds) were tireless workers for treatment for the soldiers who were dying of complications of those experiments. The work and experiments with Agent Orange is nothing new and one could wonder what the boys in NBC warfare are experimenting with now.

Bobby,

Your comment in Post #27 brings to mind comments by you and others in the thread on "How Lies get started, and how do they get spread." I would say that if you can't give chapter and verse of where you read it then you shouldn't mention it. It may be true or not true or simply an exaggeration of a small fact.

bobbys
08-22-2009, 04:34 PM
In the 1950's the U.S. Military detonated atomic bombs in the Nevada desert and then marched lightly protected troops into the fall out to see what the effects would be. This was in preparation for the development of cannons that would fire atomic shells. The question they wanted answered was "What would be the effects on the fighting ability of soldiers who had to enter an area immediately after the detonation of a tactical nuclear weapon?" I had a good friend who was part of those experiments die of Leukemia in the late 1980's. He and his wife (who remembers standing on the back porch of their bungalow in Nevada and watching the mushroom clouds) were tireless workers for treatment for the soldiers who were dying of complications of those experiments. The work and experiments with Agent Orange is nothing new and one could wonder what the boys in NBC warfare are experimenting with now.

Bobby,

Your comment in Post #27 brings to mind comments by you and others in the thread on "How Lies get started, and how do they get spread." I would say that if you can't give chapter and verse of where you read it then you shouldn't mention it. It may be true or not true or simply an exaggeration of a small fact..

Well i was looking up stuff after reading Paladins post to learn about it more, I had no intention to lie or make up anything or even thought anyone would think i had a motive..

However i will be more careful in the future.

bobbys
08-22-2009, 04:42 PM
.



Agent Orange: not Bayonne’s problem
BMUA argues to be released from environmental cleanup lawsuit

by Al Sullivan
Reporter staff writer
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During the Vietnam War, Occidental Chemical Company – with operations located along the Passaic River in Hudson and Passaic counties – provided the military with a chemical called “Agent Orange.” This was a powerful defoliant that allowed the military to clear vast jungle areas to eliminate places where the enemy might be located.

Unfortunately, Agent Orange also came with some serious medical side effects that haunted American troops for decades.

Soldiers in the remote jungles were not the only people at risk of exposure. Residents living around the Passaic River also faced a risk since some of the Agent Orange spilled into that waterway during manufacturing.

The New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection has been seeking to get the company to clean up the toxic waste, and though several agreements have been reached over the last few years, the state has been forced to sue three companies to get action.

New Jersey filed suit against Occidental Chemical Corporation, Maxus Energy Corporation and Tierra Solutions Inc. for the intentional discharge of dioxin – an extremely dangerous, cancer-causing chemical – and other contaminants into the Passaic River.

New Jersey also ordered the three companies to pay the state $2.3 million to develop a plan to dredge contaminated sediments in a six-mile stretch of the Lower Passaic River that includes a portion of Essex and Hudson counties near Newark, Harrison, East Newark and Kearny.

In turn, the companies are suing the municipalities along the Passaic River because most, if not all, dumped sewage into the river for many years before state and federal laws clamped down on the practice.

Unfortunately, the city of Bayonne also has been included in this lawsuit, and according to Steve Gallo, executive chairman of the Bayonne Municipal Utilities Authority, this isn’t fair.

Occidental Chemical Corporation discharged chemicals into the waterway from its Newark plant and, according to the DEP, the high concentrations of dioxin in sediment within the six-mile area is an ongoing source of contamination to other areas of the river and the NJ/NY harbor estuary – including Newark Bay, which borders Bayonne.

The Passaic and Hackensack rivers both empty into Newark Bay, so the pollution from them is carried on to Bayonne’s shores and beyond.

Bayonne came after

While Bayonne has water and other agreements with the Passaic Valley Sewerage Authority – one of the entities being included in the lawsuit – Gallo said Bayonne forged these agreements well after new environmental precautions were taken.

“What was released into the Passaic River after we joined was clean enough to drink,” Gallo said. “We’re asking to get removed from the suit since we were not part of the problem.”

The federal Environmental Protection Agency determines that this dioxin is “one of the most toxic chemicals ever developed by man.”

According to a statement issued by the state DEP, “Human exposure to dioxin at extremely low concentrations can cause severe health effects, including cancer and reproductive damage,” and that “the dioxin (TCDD) contamination associated with Occidental Chemical Corporation's operations has been found in the sediment of the six-mile stretch of the Lower Passaic River … and its continued migration has created one of the largest and most toxic contaminant discharges in the world.”

Concentrations of dioxin found in Passaic River fish and crabs are among the highest reported in the world, the DEP report said, and this presents “an imminent and substantial danger to the public and wildlife.”

While the state has imposed a ban on consuming fish and crabs from the river for more than 20 years, many people still eat them.

The DEP is developing a dredging plan to keep the contamination from spreading any more than it has, but it wants these companies to pay the costs for the cleanup.
_____________

“This isn’t fair for other communities that have been included in the suit – such as Kearny, Harrison and East Newark.” – Steve Gallo
________

Occidental (which did business at the time as Diamond Shamrock Chemical Company), however, argued that they were not the only entities polluting the Passaic River (considered one of the most polluted rivers in America), noting that municipalities and others have been dumping into the river for more than 100 years, and that they should also be forced to pay.

Confident

Bayonne does operate property in Kearny as part of its water access routing, but none of its sewerage releases of the past had any impact on the six miles of Passaic River that are named in the suit.

“We feel confident that we will prevail. This isn’t fair for other communities that have been included in the suit – such as Kearny, Harrison and East Newark,” Gallo said. “They can’t possibly afford to pay the cost of cleaning up the river – and frankly, they shouldn’t have to.”

Riverkeeper Bill Sheehan said his organization had been poised to file suit against the chemical companies in 2003. But the Bush Administration stepped in, promoting areas in Newark Bay and the Hackensack River – including portions of Bayonne, Jersey City and Secaucus – in a federal Superfund cleanup study.

Under federal law, private organizations are prohibited from filing lawsuits in regard to Superfund sites.

“We always knew when the moment came and we brought the hammer down on them, they would try and drag in all the others,” he said. “It is cheaper for them to stretch this out for another 20 years than to clean it up.”

Although the original Superfund site only affected a six-mile stretch along the Passaic River and tip of Newark Bay, tidal flow has spread it up the Hackensack River through Jersey City to Secaucus and the length of Newark Bay into the various waterways along Bayonne, Staten Island and Elizabeth.

But Sheehan said there is hope on the horizon because Lisa Jackson, former director of the state’s DEP – and the person who prepared the lawsuit against the chemical companies – now heads the federal EPA, which is expected to take bold steps to get the situation resolved.