the economic value of healthcare reform

[john l]

was having a glass of wine with a friend, a former banker and fed reserve employee
and a long time republican. he left the banking world and started a business - a wine shop. it's tough going as an entreprenuer he has had to gamble by not
having health insurance and see another side to the issue. his feeling is that if there were an affordable healthcare plan many older people would retire earlier and job creation would happen and is surely needed. he claims that plenty of people stay in their jobs simply because of health insurance/pre-existing conditions.
if health insurance were more affordable younger people would buy it raising the cash flow pool and keeping rates down for all. and if young families could pay $600
mo for health insurance rather than $1200/mo there would be $600 more per month
in dollars spent ( sure the money was being spent before, but it was spent on 30-50% health care admin costs not to mention bonuses, etc.). so what other effects would lower cost insurance gained form health care reform have on the economy?

[Captain Blight]

600 bucks, to use your example, is the average rent for a 1Br apt. 'round here (Minneapolis). Might see more people living single instead of having to have a roommate. Might see more new cars being bought. Might see more money in savings, or paying down debt.

[elf]

A vastly more controlled way to manage a pandemic is one. The public health implications of having 15% of the population outside the purview can be readily seen by the clinics in S. California the last few weeks.

It's gonna be a real lot of fun when and if any sort of disease gets loose in that population and they have no way to deal except to go to the emergency room or their local shaman.

[Kaa]

his feeling is that if there were an affordable healthcare plan many older people would retire earlier and job creation would happen and is surely needed.

That's not job creation at all. That's just early retirement which means that people who can still be productive choose not to be so. Bad thing, economically speaking.


if health insurance were more affordable younger people would buy it raising the cash flow pool and keeping rates down for all.

Um, no. The US health insurance system is borked utterly and just needs to be junked. People generally don't buy insurance as individuals -- it's way too expensive (because the insurers expect a LOT of adverse selection). The way most people get health insurance is through their job and it either comes with the job or doesn't -- the cost of the health insurance policy is irrelevant to the employee (and that's one of many problems with the way health care is paid for in the US).

Kaa

[Milo Christensen]

You're not asking the right question, so so far, you haven't gotten an intelligent answer.

What's the economic consequence of diverting 60 billion dollars a year away from families that can't afford health insurance now but will be required to purchase it if health insurance reform requires a mandatory health insurance policy be purchased by all? Realizing of course, that only 40 billion will end up spent on health care.

[john l]

Um, no. The US health insurance system is borked utterly and just needs to be junked. People generally don't buy insurance as individuals -- it's way too expensive (because the insurers expect a LOT of adverse selection). The way most people get health insurance is through their job and it either comes with the job or doesn't -- the cost of the health insurance policy is irrelevant to the employee (and that's one of many problems with the way health care is paid for in the US).

you're assuming that the only jobs are with corporations, institutions and gov.
what about the entreprenurial attitude that built america? we need people to be leaders and not followers - or is there some conspiracy to make the masses into lemers so they can be controlled?
i've been self employed for 25 years - created a number of jobs within my organization and my clients. but health care, commercial rent taxes and high business operating costs had me rescale. now i have no employees and pay
no ones health insurance. every large corporation started as a small one.
today that is more difficult to do for a lot of reasons and health care is one of them. capitalism needs health care reform!

[john l]

You're not asking the right question, so so far, you haven't gotten an intelligent answer.

no offense but that is a little arrogant! do you want to discuss or fight you dumb
ass close minded piece of ......

[Kaa]

you're assuming that the only jobs are with corporations, institutions and gov.

Most are.


today that is more difficult to do for a lot of reasons and health care is one of them. capitalism needs health care reform!

Yep. I don't think anyone's arguing the health reform is not needed. The point is the current attempt at health care reform failed. What we are likely to get in this iteration isn't reform.

Kaa

[john l]

Yep. I don't think anyone's arguing the health reform is not needed. The point is the current attempt at health care reform failed. What we are likely to get in this iteration isn't reform.

well then come up with options that work rather than repeatedly claim that someone elses attempt has failed. i'm in the idea business and we believe that there is no such thing as a bad idea. even the bad ideas lead to good ones and have value. so don't get stuck in the middle of the process.
and if you believe that health care is needed then you should be thanking
those who you claimed as failed for getting the process started - because
there is no denying that!

[Milo Christensen]

You're not asking the right question, so so far, you haven't gotten an intelligent answer.

no offense but that is a little arrogant! do you want to discuss or fight you dumb
ass close minded piece of ......

No real reason why the discussion shouldn't get a little acrimonious, what the hey, it's the Bilge. So . . .

Show me where in the current bills now before the House and Senate there is any possible cut in mandatory health insurance premiums for a young family to some wheee, lookee me, I just pulled $600 a month out of my ass number.

Please remember that $600 a month is about the average health expediture for a single person now, let alone a young family of four. So there's no way, short of dramatic cuts in health care spending that that's even remotely possible.

[Kaa]

well then come up with options that work rather than repeatedly claim that someone elses attempt has failed. i'm in the idea business and we believe that there is no such thing as a bad idea. even the bad ideas lead to good ones and have value. so don't get stuck in the middle of the process.

I happen to think there ARE bad ideas -- ones that lead you to dead ends and wrong paths and suboptimal solutions.

As to me coming up with options, why? It's not like anyone of consequence is likely to listen to me...

Kaa

[john l]

i did pull a number out of thin air - as an example - not a fact. i'm going to bed - you bore me with your partisan lockstep. healthcare is/has to evolve. i'm the first one to admit that i don't have the actuarian capability to offer real solutions
but i do have the conceptual ability to believe that there is a better way. and i'm not so bound by fear that i think we should leave things as they are.

[john l]

I happen to think there ARE bad ideas -- ones that lead you to dead ends and wrong paths and suboptimal solutions.

As to me coming up with options, why? It's not like anyone of consequence is likely to listen to me...

of course there are bad ideas, one always needs to discern, but if one is exploring options and recognizes a bad idea, he must know why it is bad and
therefore can create a new idea that addresses the negative of the bad idea.
it's some what analogous to knowing what you don't know and therefore seek
it out.

[Milo Christensen]

Good night. Thanks for admitting you're a low information voter.

[john l]

i didn't admit anything. in fact if you can say that you are capable of saying anything that suits your own agenda.
get real!

[Kaa]

i'm in the idea business and we believe that there is no such thing as a bad idea.


of course there are bad ideas,

Why don't you make up your mind..? :D

Kaa

[john l]

thick as a brick are ya - try reading the entire comment "in context."

[Kaa]

thick as a brick are ya

Yep, that's me, you got it right :D

Did you make up your mind yet? :D

Kaa