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WX
08-20-2009, 09:22 PM
If you are 17 years of age or older, you are eligible to attempt the Driving Test if you have logged at least 120 hours driving time (which includes 20 hours of night driving) and have held your learner licence for at least 12 months (drivers over 25 are exempt from the 12 month tenure requirement). If you pass, you will be issued your provisional P1 licence. You can attempt the Driving Test in any type of light vehicle however you will be restricted from driving certain prohibited vehicles when a P licence is issued. For more information see the sections on P1 and P2 vehicle and passenger conditions and Learner licence for exemptions from the 120 hours log book requirements. A P1 licence is issued for 18 months. After a total of 12 months you can attempt the Hazard Perception Test (HPT). If successful, you can proceed to the P2 licence. A P2 licence must be held for at least 24 months to progress to a full licence.


My question is why do we allow those with the least experience, to drive vehicles above a certain engine capacity?
In 2008 the deaths per 100,000 in the 17-25 age range for males was 10.5%, almost double any other age group bar the 70+ which was 7.7.

George Roberts
08-20-2009, 09:32 PM
You realize that young people have less experience than old people, that young people have fewer reasons to limit their risk taking than old people.

But yes we could limit the engine size for that class of people, but that means that children might not be allowed to drive the family car.

(What is a P1 and a P2?

The Bigfella
08-20-2009, 09:58 PM
My question is why do we allow those with the least experience, to drive vehicles above a certain engine capacity?



We don't.

Vehicle exclusions came into force a few years ago - July 11 2005 - and the only exemptions are if the family owned a non-compying vehicle before the restrictions came in.



Prohibited vehicles are those with:

Eight or more cylinders (except diesel).
A turbocharged engine (except diesel).
A supercharged engine (except diesel).
Engine performance modifications that require an engineers' certificate.
Certain high performance six cylinder engine vehicles or other vehicles as described in the publication Novice Drivers - High Performance Vehicle Restrictions.
The following vehicles are not prohibited vehicles and may be driven by provisional licence holders:

Suzuki Cappuccino 2D Cabriolet Turbo 3 698cc (released between 1/01/1992 - 1/12/1997).
Daihatsu Copen L880 2D Convertible Turbo 4 659cc (released from 1/10/2003).
Smart vehicles (all models).


http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/gettingalicence/car/p1p2_conditions.html?llid=4

These 6 cykinder vehicles are also excluded:





BMW M and M3.
Honda NSX.
Nissan 350Z and 370Z.
All Porsches from 1994 models onwards.
Mercedes Benz SLK350.

My son got hassled by a cop at 4am one morning whilst driving the M5 - but his licence pre-dated the new regs... and the cop never proceeded with the charge.

The Bigfella
08-20-2009, 09:59 PM
... and if you want to consider how silly that approach can be... early Porsche 911's are much harder to control than later models - and an inexperienced driver is more likely to get hurt in an early one....

Kaa
08-20-2009, 10:01 PM
I'm glad you like your nanny state :D

Kaa

PeterSibley
08-20-2009, 10:08 PM
We do .

The Bigfella
08-20-2009, 10:19 PM
I don't have too many problems with that regulation's overall principle. I knew 20 or so teenagers who were among my schoolmates and social groups who died before they turned 21.... all in car / motorcycle accidents.

The way the motorcyle issue was handled was much better. All new motorcyclists must complete a "Stay Upright" course - and are limited to bikes of less than 250cc capacity in their learning / probationary period. My friends were dying on Kawasaki Mach III (500cc), Suzuki 750cc, etc. etc..... bikes. The guy who died on the Mach III hit the back of a stationary car at more than 110mph - 3 weeks after he first got on a bike.

Our road toll is now less than one third what it was in those years 35 years ago in absolute numbers, despite there being many more vehicles and drivers on the roads now.

The legislation keeps the young ones alive until they learn the consequences of their behaviour.

Increasing the number of hours of supervised driving from 50 to 120 before allowing the kids to go solo has been proven to halve the road toll

BrianW
08-20-2009, 10:25 PM
Seems simple enough...

When 17yo it's ok to attempt the DT having logged 1200hr (not all at once) to include 20hr NT time and have had a LLP for one solar cycle. Success equals PP1 and a free shot at DT (any lumens) with CPV restriction.

Seek more info for P1/P2 vehicle and PC as well as LL exemptions from 120hr requirements P1 is issued for 18 months except at one solar cycle the HPT can be administered. If successful subject can proceed to P2 for 24 months prior to FL.

WX
08-20-2009, 10:42 PM
How hard would it be to fit a governor to the engine to limit speed to say maximum 100 kph? Or say some software that logs road speeds above a certain level? It would be part of the onboard computer system.

The Bigfella
08-20-2009, 11:04 PM
How hard would it be to fit a governor to the engine to limit speed to say maximum 100 kph? Or say some software that logs road speeds above a certain level? It would be part of the onboard computer system.

Strewth mate, wash your bloody mouth out.... or at least your fingertips.

Those miserable bastards get enough revenue.

There are times, btw, when a bit of extra speed saves lives.

I was riding a Honda 750/4 through the Blue Mountains once, and knew I had a Highway Patrol car behind me. I overtook a semi-trailer (18 wheeler for out language-constrained friends) - making sure I didn't exceed the speed limit whilst I did it. The coppers pulled me over and told me that I had a powerful machine and should use its performance in such situations.

PeterSibley
08-21-2009, 12:05 AM
How hard would it be to fit a governor to the engine to limit speed to say maximum 100 kph? Or say some software that logs road speeds above a certain level? It would be part of the onboard computer system.
Lovely idea ...just wait ......probably about the time hell freezes over .

The Bigfella
08-21-2009, 12:39 AM
The RTA have been working on the second part for ages. Starting with heavy vehicles. Full time tracking devices... where they are, when and at what speed.

WX
08-21-2009, 12:46 AM
Full time tracking devices... where they are, when and at what speed.
Sounds like a good idea to me.:D

skuthorp
08-21-2009, 02:50 AM
Around 1970 the road toll in victoria reached 1034 for the year and a campaign was launched and regulations gradually changed till today the annual toll is around 340 despite vast increased in the numbers of cars registered.


"Gordon Trinca was chairman of the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons' road trauma committee from the mid-1970s to the early 1990s. He played a leading role in the campaign that produced .05 laws; random breath-testing; and compulsory seat beat legislation. Along with other key players like police surgeon John Birrell, Tricia helped make Victoria close to the leading jurisdiction in the world on road safety.
Road trauma was so prevalent 40 years ago that the Melbourne Sun ran a 'Declare War on 1034' campaign in 1970 as there were 1034 road deaths in one year. Now the number is less than a third of that, in spite of the enormous increase in vehicles and road usage. Numerous European countries have failed to follow Victoria's example, and continue to suffer much higher road deaths as a result."
http://blogs.watoday.com.au/business/lindsaytanner/2009/05/26/tributetoare.html

You might call it a 'nanny state', but thousands are alive today because of these measures and by and large a change in attitude by all but a few young men who seem to kill each other on a regular basis to the benifit of the gene pool.

Herby
08-21-2009, 02:54 AM
How hard would it be to fit a governor to the engine to limit speed to say maximum 100 kph? Or say some software that logs road speeds above a certain level? It would be part of the onboard computer system.

I think you'll find Linfox and a lot of other truck companies have logs onboard, it's called a "Tachograph" and logs revs, time in gears, speed and a whole lot more.

It has also won court cases as it is considered a reliable witness.:)

hansp77
08-21-2009, 06:30 AM
I gotta agree with Ian-
I believe artificially limiting engines to the maximum legal speed is a bad idea. There are times when that bit of extra power, that momentary breaking of the speed limit, can actually save your life.
If limiting the cars to something like 130Kmh was easy and reliable, and cheap, then I suppose I wouldn't have anything against it- but really, I think there are better ways to deal with the issue.
I am fully supportive of limiting the sort of cars (by capacity, power and type) that 'kids' can drive.

I suspect Ian actually knows this, but while the general rule for learning and probationary motorcycle riders is 250cc, there is a quite large list of bikes up to 660cc that are also approved- under the LAM scheme (learner approved motorcylces)
here is the NSW list,
http://163.189.7.150/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html

I snapped this pic driving a week or so ago because I just couldn't believe this guy was legally on the open road like this-
someone needs to get all NannyState on this guys ass in my opinion.
No I don't mean the cars... yes, in front, that is a road registered 'motorbike' battling city traffic:eek: can't see much from this angle (by the time I grabbed my phone to take the photo), but honestly, there was not much to see. That thing was tiny.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t304/hansp77/DSC00412.jpg

stevebaby
08-21-2009, 06:34 AM
I'm glad you like your nanny state :D

KaaOne of the things we enjoy is not having the military (i.e. the US Coastguard), telling us what we can do with our boats.
You're welcome. :D

stevebaby
08-21-2009, 06:40 AM
I gotta agree with Ian-
I believe artificially limiting engines to the maximum legal speed is a bad idea. There are times when that bit of extra power, that momentary breaking of the speed limit, can actually save your life.
If limiting the cars to something like 130Kmh was easy and reliable, and cheap, then I suppose I wouldn't have anything against it- but really, I think there are better ways to deal with the issue.
I am fully supportive of limiting the sort of cars (by capacity, power and type) that 'kids' can drive.

I suspect Ian actually knows this, but while the general rule for learning and probationary motorcycle riders is 250cc, there is a quite large list of bikes up to 660cc that are also approved- under the LAM scheme (learner approved motorcylces)
here is the NSW list,
http://163.189.7.150/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html

I snapped this pic driving a week or so ago because I just couldn't believe this guy was legally on the open road like this-
someone needs to get all NannyState on this guys ass in my opinion.
No I don't mean the cars... yes, in front, that is a road registered 'motorbike' battling city traffic:eek: can't see much from this angle (by the time I grabbed my phone to take the photo), but honestly, there was not much to see. That thing was tiny.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t304/hansp77/DSC00412.jpgApart from being about 200mm over the white line, I can't see that he's doing anything illegal at all.

Edited to add...I just noticed the green light. He's quite legal. What's the problem?

hansp77
08-21-2009, 07:30 AM
Steve,
I honestly think that bike is way too small to be on the road- at least way too small for a full size human to be riding:rolleyes: (may be the right size for a midget?)
Maybe the perspective makes it look like it is probably bigger than it really looks- It was not. It was smaller than it looks:D
The top of the seat was about the height of a regular car tyre.

Honestly, it looked like one of those circus mini-bike things- knees up above and getting in the way of the handlebars, weight all wrong for a full grown man, so no proper bike handling, lousy top speed, and because of the size, not very visible.
I was not the only person I saw a little jaw-dropped at the thing.
A fun bike to play around with in the back yard, but dangerously small IMHO to be used on the road.

I was not pointing out anything illegal he was doing- the light had only just turned green, he was over the white line because he had just weaved his way through the traffic to the front (which I fine with bike riders doing through stationary traffic).
He could take off OK with the speed of the traffic... well OK compared to my old donkadonk NA diesel (not the SS waiting behind him:rolleyes:) and then he pretty much had to act like he was a pushbike instead of a motorbike- 'owning' the lane with traffic banking behind him, or pulling over and illegally using the bike lane (when it was there) and letting them pass.
An accident waiting to happen. IMO a motorbike that small, that is required to behave as a motorbike, should not be road registerable- for the good of the rider, and the poor bugger who might one day rear-end him.
YMMV.

WX
08-21-2009, 05:22 PM
An overtaking manoeuvre takes around 12-13 seconds or less to complete. So okay forget the speed limiter and fit tachographs with big fines for removal or tampering.
I drove my daughters little Subaru all wheel drive sedan a few weeks ago and was amazed at just how zippy it was.

seanz
08-21-2009, 05:30 PM
I gotta agree with Ian-
I believe artificially limiting engines to the maximum legal speed is a bad idea. There are times when that bit of extra power, that momentary breaking of the speed limit, can actually save your life.
If limiting the cars to something like 130Kmh was easy and reliable, and cheap, then I suppose I wouldn't have anything against it- but really, I think there are better ways to deal with the issue.
I am fully supportive of limiting the sort of cars (by capacity, power and type) that 'kids' can drive.


You know the old saying....if it saves one life it's worth doing?

Take some lessons from the transport industry.
Speed limiters.
Training.
Wait till they're older.....

Despite what some say, I believe these methods work, especially the age one. Why on earth are we letting people with juvenile impulse control loose on the public roads in cars? It makes no sense and the road-toll reflects this.

The Bigfella
08-21-2009, 07:56 PM
An overtaking manoeuvre takes around 12-13 seconds or less to complete. So okay forget the speed limiter and fit tachographs with big fines for removal or tampering.
I drove my daughters little Subaru all wheel drive sedan a few weeks ago and was amazed at just how zippy it was.

When you are down for the EBS Gary, I'll show you how it can be done in less than half that time. Its a lot safer when you spend less time on the other side of the road. I used to drive a 36hp 1958 VW... so I know all about slow overtaking.

WX
08-22-2009, 12:00 AM
I watch a young bloke on a bike this morning, he pulled out of our nieghbour's driveway without looking. He miss being clean up by a big 4 wheel drive by about 2 foot. 15 minutes later I nearly got hit by another wanker on a bike who came around a corner smack on the double white lines.